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OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:13 pm

Hello all,

Part 6 has become quite long. Subsequently part 7 is being created in order to make it easier for members to find new information and to continue the discussion of this unfortunate event

Part 5 can be found here OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 5 (by moderators Jul 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Regards,

The Moderator Crew
Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
 
sankaps
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 49):
"Everybody please ignore Avek00. He clearly has some kind of axe to grind with Asiana."

Fully agree with Maverick.


Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 251):
"The one with the broken tailbone is Lee, the cabin service manager, not this one. Lee describes this one as the one who carried a schoolboy out when he was frightened of jumping out. Another F/A is described as having tears streaming down her face as she ran back repeatedly for injured passengers and carried them piggyback to the escape slides. Lee herself helped free those pinned under escape slides that had inflated inside the cabin, by puncturing with one with a fire axe and finding a knife from a service cart for a F/O to puncture another. She was the last to leave the plane.Heroes all. "

Amazing stories. Hopefully helps dispel the notion that Asian carrier FAs overly focused on service and not sufficiently trained on safety. Service and safety are not mutually exclusive. These FAs are heroes!

Some quotes from a NYT article:

"Consider Lee Yoon-hye, the lead flight attendant on Asiana Flight 214. Ms. Lee, who had a broken tailbone, fought flames and helped usher people to the functioning emergency slides. She watched another flight attendant piggyback a young child through the smoke. “I was only thinking about rescuing the next passenger,” she said at a news conference on Sunday.

She was the last person to leave the wreckage of the plane".

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/09/bu...-air-safety-out-in-90-seconds.html
 
cloudboy
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:37 pm

Another non-pilot question here. We know low speed was a critical factor in this crash. Media reports make it sound like the aircraft was so slow that it was nearing stall speed - is that the case? We know it is well below normal landing speed, but the aircraft was not in, nor was it even near, stall speed, correct? If that is the case, from a pilots point of view, how much weight do they place on airspeed vs approach angle and rate of descent while landing?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:42 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 2):
is that the case? We know it is well below normal landing speed, but the aircraft was not in, nor was it even near, stall speed, correct?

Apparently the stick shaker went, so that would point the airplane to being right above stall speeds.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
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sassiciai
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:45 pm

I'm trying to quote rc135x from the previous thread - in which he said the following:

All of this technical discussion about auto-this and auto-that and mode and stick shaker and engine spool up time and ILS OOS are irrelevant to the core issue: the airplane crashed because it stalled some 30 knots below approach speed because the pilots allowed that to happen. No capable pilot needs any of those items to perform a safe, routine landing. No matter if they had 10k+ hours in a 747 they are still pilots, and pilots, not on-board computers, still need to be able to land the airplane. If the crew was distracted or surprised by automated features not functioning properly then they have become too dependent or reliant on those features and forgotten the basics of flying.

Who cares if SFO approaches are challenging or the ILS was out? How many other pilots managed to land their airplanes at SFO without being 30+ knots below their approach speeds?

Before the flaming starts for my "premature conclusions about the pilots' actions" I have flown (or supervised or trained another pilot flying) multiple hundreds of heavy jet VFR approaches with no instrument backup using only the "captain's bars" on the runway for assessing the landing picture. No auto throttles or RNAV or auto land, just one hand on the throttles and one on the yoke. On every approach my limit was 5 knots slow before I directed an increase in airspeed or a go-around. 30+ knots slow? ZERO excuse. If the pilots could not fly the airplane (ANY airplane) without allowing that significant a drop in airspeed they should not be allowed to play with airplanes. Ultimately who cares why they got that slow (and there is no evidence to suggest mechanical problems). CRM? Cultural factors? Training in progress? What can we learn from this incident to prevent future occurrences? In ANY flight regime, normal or emergency, the first rule is to maintain aircraft control. The crew of this airplane failed to do that.



My point on this:
I have quite limited first-hand flying experience dating back to when I was carefree and unmarried (LOL!) and flew single-engined 2-seater C-152s out of Grimbergen (just next to BRU). Yes, the training of "one hand on the throttle, one on the yoke, and your eyes out the window/on airspeed" was drummed into me incessantly

How could you learn to fly an approach otherwise?

Choose your touchdown point, and with one on the throttle, and one on the yoke, manage your descent to that point, using all visual cues to add or reduce thrust! Thank good my plane didnt have any other dials, buttons, levers, or things to take care of, just getting it down on my target point was enough!

So I wonder about the crew here!
 
cloudboy
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:50 pm

Another question that I haven't seen answered yet. Where were the relief pilots at the time? We're they actually in the cockpit at the time, or were they upstairs in the rest cabin. If they were not in the cabin it makes no sense to criticize them for not noticing anything was wrong, and if so, I would like to hear their experience in having to evacuate from their little cave up there after the crash.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 2):
Media reports make it sound like the aircraft was so slow that it was nearing stall speed - is that the case?

Not having the B777 manuals in front of me, not knowing within a few thousand pounds the weight of the aircraft at the time of the crash, not knowing the air temperature and dew point - I cannot say if the aircraft was at or below stall speed.

The stick shaker indicates it was approaching stall speed and if the NTSB numbers are correct - the plane may have stalled (one of the NTSB technical investigative tasks will be to see if the speed indicators were working correctly and accurately - if possible given the damage to the aircraft).

But it was NOT flying fast enough to maintain altitude. It was sinking and too slow to climb or maintain level flight by the time the stick shaker sounded.

The question of did the aircraft stall or not is not relevant in my opinion.

A stall did not make the aircraft pitch up just before impact. That was almost certainly pilot control input. Stalls don't pitch up that quick, though the right of center-line might have been from the aircraft falling off to the right due to low speed.

Since the aircraft could not avoid continuing to descend, the pilots were in a situation where they had almost no options.

Raising the nose sharply may have prevented the aircraft nose from hitting the embankment - with a much higher death toll. Raising the nose sharply may have made the tail strike happen - it might not have happened had the plane stayed relatively level. (It still would have been a very hard, very destructive landing).

Only a detailed NTSB energy analysis can determine that.

I do not find the sharp nose pull-up unusual. Those pilots had to see the embankment rushing toward them and pulling back is an instinctive reaction at that point.
 
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mayor
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:57 pm

Excuse this old ramp rat for a stupid sounding question, but if the ILS was indeed, out, what difference would it make if the wx was severe/clear?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Rbgso
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 4):
All of this technical discussion about auto-this and auto-that and mode and stick shaker and engine spool up time and ILS OOS are irrelevant to the core issue: the airplane crashed because it stalled some 30 knots below approach speed because the pilots allowed that to happen. No capable pilot needs any of those items to perform a safe, routine landing.

I agree 100%. There seem to be an over-reliance on automated flight controls, which is fine, but at the end of the day if you cannot manually land a plane in good weather something is wrong. So much time seems to be spent learning aircraft systems at the expense of basic stick/yoke and rudder skills.

Kudos to the cabin crew for outstanding work. Their training obviously kicked in quite quickly.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:27 pm

Somewhat disconcerting landing yesterday, you could see the wreck on the forward facing camera when my SK A340 landed at SFO, then looking out the window and seeing it on the runway as we landed.

It's amazing that only two people died, although it looks like only one may have died in the crash, it appears that the second was killed after being run over by an emergency services vehicle.

[Edited 2013-07-09 11:29:00]
 
hivue
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 4):
All of this technical discussion about auto-this and auto-that and mode and stick shaker and engine spool up time and ILS OOS are irrelevant to the core issue

(the above quote actually from rc135x)

I think everyone agrees that all the evidence points to the crew failing to monitor the approach in a professional manner. I'm tempted to say that if they couldn't land a plane with no (known) mx problems in that kind of weather they're in the wrong line of work. But the fact of the matter is they are in that line of work, and some of them have been for a long time. So all the stuff about automation, etc. that is so much part of normal commercial airliner operation these days and may have played a role in this accident is highly relevant.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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N328KF
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:32 pm

This is not going to end well if they continue this behavior:

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Mir
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 5):
Another question that I haven't seen answered yet. Where were the relief pilots at the time? We're they actually in the cockpit at the time, or were they upstairs in the rest cabin.

The NTSB hasn't said anything conclusive about that - they're waiting for the crew interviews.

-Mir
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rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
if they continue this behavior

But we knew that was going to happen.

It happens in every accident involving a non-native english speaking flight crew - and many foreign airlines/ governments try to 'direct' the NTSB interviews.

US airlines and pilot's unions would also like to direct the interview, but our regulations/ laws prevent that. Though we all know the US pilots talk to their union and their airline before they talk to the NTSB.

The real problem in my opinion will be when the NTSB wants to go into the Asiana pilot training program, over every simulator session, through every training manual page, through every operations manual page, etc.
 
rampart
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:50 pm

Toward the end of the previous thread, there was a long quoted eyewitness report from the United Airlines pilot, in the 747 on hold at the end of the runway. Nobody has commented on it, and there isn't a source for it. Anything?

-Rampart
 
Norcal773
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 2):
Another non-pilot question here. We know low speed was a critical factor in this crash. Media reports make it sound like the aircraft was so slow that it was nearing stall speed - is that the case? We know it is well below normal landing speed, but the aircraft was not in, nor was it even near, stall speed, correct? If that is the case, from a pilots point of view, how much weight do they place on airspeed vs approach angle and rate of descent while landing?

Per NTSB Chairwoman yesterday, speed at impact was 106 Knots, well below the target speed of 137 KIAS. Lowest recorded speed per the FDR was 103KIAS so depending on what stall speed is on a 777, sounds to me like it did stall reason why the Stick shaker went off at 4 sec before impact. Hopefully that answers your question, the media just adds to the confusion really so I am staying away from it and getting my facts from the cute NTSB lady  
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
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legacyins
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):

I do not understand the langauge issues as there are members from the Korean Transportaion Safety Authority present during the interviews of the Flight crew.
 
rc135x
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 10):
So all the stuff about automation, etc. that is so much part of normal commercial airliner operation these days and may have played a role in this accident is highly relevant.

Yes indeed, and I acknowledge that. My point is simple: an increasing amount of conversation in this thread is focusing on highly technical aspects of control laws and automated features that might have a bearing on the crash as the *solution* to the problem. In short, if only the crew managed or utilized these automated features more appropriately then the crash may well not have occurred. In reality, I argue that if these analyses are on target, then these automated features *contributed* to the crash because of an increasingly institutionalized reliance on technology in lieu of basic airmanship.

How many crashes or incidents have been discussed in these forums that involve high-time crews who have mismanaged, misunderstood, misused, or blindly followed increasingly technical devices throughout multiple phases of flight?

If you are correct then the problem is insidious: we have converted an older generation and enabled a new generation of aircrew who are systems managers rather than pilots. I am no Luddite, but if a pilot thinks "TOGA" is anything other than something John Belushi wore in Animal House then s/he needs to reconsider if the airplanes of today and tomorrow need stick-and-rudder skills or someone with Microsoft Flight Simulator programming experience.
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Norcal773
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Toward the end of the previous thread, there was a long quoted eyewitness report from the United Airlines pilot, in the 747 on hold at the end of the runway. Nobody has commented on it, and there isn't a source for it. Anything?

I copied it onto the thread and you're right, nobody has said anything on it. Here's the link to it from where I got it, a Curacao Newspaper- Don't ask me how they got it coz I have no idea, I got it off of Twitter.

http://www.curacaochronicle.com/avia...ay-as-the-asiana-b-777-approached/
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
hivue
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Nobody has commented on it

I think it speaks for itself. If it's legit, the mental image of the two girls who were killed possible having fallen out onto the runway behind the plane but surviving long enough to get up and move around is heartbreaking.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
flymia
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
Quoting cloudboy (Reply 5):Another question that I haven't seen answered yet. Where were the relief pilots at the time? We're they actually in the cockpit at the time, or were they upstairs in the rest cabin.
The NTSB hasn't said anything conclusive about that - they're waiting for the crew interviews.

That is true the NTSB has not said anything. I have no idea how Asiana works but I know at U.S. Airlines all four pilots would be in the cockpit for landing and takeoff. I would imagine this would be the case here. I would also assume the crew rest area is not a place someone is suppose to sit for takeoff and landing. But that I am not sure of.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 15):
Lowest recorded speed per the FDR was 103KIAS

103 KIAS in a 777. That is insane! How anyone lets a 777 get that slow is not comprehendible IMO.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
This is not going to end well if they continue this behavior:

WSJ: Asiana crew interviews going slowly due to language issues, friction between NTSB/Airline mgmt complicates probe --Sources

The language issue its self is a concern. You hear it too often on ATC, especially with Asian Crews. They need to pick up on their English skills. Its it just not up to par IMO.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 11):
This is not going to end well if they continue this behavior:

Lets hope this is just a knee-jerk response from OZ to yesterday's NTSB presser. Even ALPA didn't like the way NTSB released partial data points from CVR and FDR.

If OZ wants to maintain its reputation and operate in USA, they have to co-operate with investigators.
 
rampart
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):

Toward the end of the previous thread, there was a long quoted eyewitness report from the United Airlines pilot, in the 747 on hold at the end of the runway. Nobody has commented on it, and there isn't a source for it. Anything?

Sorry, just want to be more specific, it was reply 272 in Thread Part 6, posted by Norcal773.

OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 6 (by Moderators Jul 8 2013 in Civil Aviation)

[the specific reply is linked above]

Mentions the pilot seeing ejected (presumably) passengers 1500' from the final stop of the Asiana fuselage, and calling ATC to alert them of that. But what's the source??
 
hivue
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting rc135x (Reply 17):
I argue that if these analyses are on target, then these automated features *contributed* to the crash because of an increasingly institutionalized reliance on technology in lieu of basic airmanship.

  

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Nobody has commented on it

One problem I see is that the supposed relief pilot calls both taxiways "F." (Of course, if both taxiways are actually F then that speaks in favor of it being legit.)
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 19):

I think it speaks for itself. If it's legit, the mental image of the two girls who were killed possible having fallen out onto the runway behind the plane but surviving long enough to get up and move around is heartbreaking.

I have been hearing that the one fatality was near an evac slide, possibly hit by a rescue vehicle.

I only see 2 evac slides deployed, both forward of the left wing, well away from the rear end of the fuselage.

Seems unlikely that a person would have fallen out of the back of the fuselage, injured, and ended up somewhere forward of the left wing, to be struck by a vehicle.

Hopefully we will get clearer info soon.
 
rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Toward the end of the previous thread, there was a long quoted eyewitness report from the United Airlines pilot, in the 747 on hold at the end of the runway. Nobody has commented on it, and there isn't a source for it. Anything?

There is a link farther up the thread - the original was posted on pprune

I think that was the original source.

I'm concerned about its truthfulness for several reasons.

One is the statement about confusion on the ATC radios after the crash. The only confusion I hear is the OZ pilots - and they were severly shaken and stirred in my opinion. Just being able to make radio calls for emergency equipment does speak well of their priorities and professionalism (even if the crash itself implies the opposite.)

Everyone else on the ATC tapes is very clear, very specific and very focused. The pilots on the incoming flights announcing their go arounds, the tower controller, etc. But he might have been listening to ground in addition to the tower frequency - and it may have been more 'frantic'.

I'm sure there were many questions and issues to get trucks positioned correctly. I would expect the ground ATC to order all aircraft to stop immediately and hold in position to allow emergency vehicles free access to all taxiways and runways. Some of those pilots would not have seen the crash, and be asking when they can resume taxi - and complaining about ATC delays messing with their schedule. (That would end quickly once the reality of the crash became clear to everyone.)

There was also likely a lot of "how soon can we get back to the terminal" talk.

The entire tone of the post is a 'me the hero' and discounting the action of other members of the flight and cabin crew. He had to take the cockpit microphone away from the Captain and describe the people walking away from the wreckage (and his description does not match what was said on the ATC tapes - though human memory is faulty.)

He is the one who had to inform and comfort the passengers, he is the one who had to tell the cabin crew what to do, etc.

I would expect such a description from a young hotshot full of himself newbie - not someone who is supposedly experienced and professional enough to be in that position.

But I could be wrong.

[Edited 2013-07-09 12:18:11]
 
rampart
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 18):
I copied it onto the thread and you're right, nobody has said anything on it. Here's the link to it from where I got it, a Curacao Newspaper- Don't ask me how they got it coz I have no idea, I got it off of Twitter.

Thanks for that. And hmm. What United pilot e-mails the Curacao Chronicle?

Quote:
Curacao Chronicle does not report on international news except if it has anything to do with Curacao, but this e-mail is very interesting to share with our readers. This is from a United Airlines crew who witnessed the crash of Asiana B-777.
 
atnight
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:26 pm

I dont know if any here have seen this animation, sorry if it was posted before. However it is the best animation I've seen so far. It's In Korean so cannot tell you what they say, but its a great account of how the airplane crashed.

Asiana777sfo

Hope it helps. My sister sent me who has a friend that works at Korean Air, and as Korean, sent her this info.
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
AviationAddict
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
What United pilot e-mails the Curacao Chronicle?

Probably one that doesn't want to work at United much longer. I agree with rfields5421's assessment, seems very immature. Even if it is true there are better ways to get the message out.
 
hivue
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
What United pilot e-mails the Curacao Chronicle?

The newspaper doesn't say who emailed it, or even if it was emailed to them. They just say it's an email.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
AT
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:30 pm

This might sound like a silly idea, but given the digitally advanced world we now live in, would it be (a) possible, and (b) prudent to have all takeoffs and landings videographed?

The amateur video of the Asiana landing that made its way to CNN will, I'm sure be enormously useful to the investigative team. Video footage is also useful for future training purposes and can provide unbiased evidence in he said/she said cases.

This case relied on an amateur video. But how useful would it be to have high resolution video cameras filming landings and takeoffs at at least major airports? The recordings could be on a loop, much like cockpit voice recorders, so they continually write over themselves except in an accident.
 
AT
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:34 pm

I am not a legal expert, but was wondering can a flight crew be individually held accountable for their errors? In the event that it is established beyond doubt that the Asiana accident was caused by one pilot's error, then could individual pilots be held accountable legally, either criminally or civilly?
 
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Aesma
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Toward the end of the previous thread, there was a long quoted eyewitness report from the United Airlines pilot, in the 747 on hold at the end of the runway. Nobody has commented on it, and there isn't a source for it. Anything?

-Rampart

It was already posted hours before and discussed then. Basically it doesn't give much info we don't know already and some believe it might be a fake.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Moose135
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 30):
This might sound like a silly idea, but given the digitally advanced world we now live in, would it be (a) possible, and (b) prudent to have all takeoffs and landings videographed?

It might be neat to have, but honestly, given the cost of installing and maintaining several cameras at the end of each runway, networked into a central server, at every airport with commercial service, what would the value be? Yes, they would have provided a nice view of Saturday's SFO crash, but how many crashes are there to start with, then how many of them happen right at the end of a runway where the cameras might (assuming weather and available light) allow you to see what happened. And given the enhanced FDR and CVR data available, how much more would those videos add to the crash investigation?
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
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Aesma
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 30):
This might sound like a silly idea, but given the digitally advanced world we now live in, would it be (a) possible, and (b) prudent to have all takeoffs and landings videographed?

The amateur video of the Asiana landing that made its way to CNN will, I'm sure be enormously useful to the investigative team. Video footage is also useful for future training purposes and can provide unbiased evidence in he said/she said cases.

This case relied on an amateur video. But how useful would it be to have high resolution video cameras filming landings and takeoffs at at least major airports? The recordings could be on a loop, much like cockpit voice recorders, so they continually write over themselves except in an accident.

The wreck is on an airport, the crew is alive, the recorders are fine. Those three are far more important that any video.

[Edited 2013-07-09 12:50:50]
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 30):
This might sound like a silly idea

You are the sixth or seventh person I remember bringing this up on this series of threads - but given over a couple thousand posts - it would be easy to miss.

This is the first time since 1971 there has been an incident at SFO that a runway camera would have captured. It is only the second time in the entire history of the airport a runway camera would have captured an accident/ incident.

How many cameras do you need to cover the runway in better detail than the spotter? How much will it cost? Laying data cables would likely cost a lot more than the cameras.

Some have suggested that images from such a system could be sold to help pay for it. I guess that would put professional photographer aircraft spotters out of business.

Could such a system be designed and installed - certainly.

How many airports need to have such a system - 100 in the US, 200, 500, 2,000?

(I can think of two accidents at GA airports around Dallas where video would have been much more useful than this crash. Both have less than 250 movements per day.)

Is the cost worth the investment - I think not.

The video of this crash is dramatic, compelling - but I don't think it is vital to the investigation. Useful yes, but the investigation would not be hampered without the video.

It doesn't tell us anything about the approach that the FDR does not tell us.

Just the 'argument' over whether or not the aircraft tail struck the water for five seconds, two seconds or no seconds - shows how even video cannot be clearly deterministic.

[Edited 2013-07-09 12:47:42]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:49 pm

Quoting atnight (Reply 27):
However it is the best animation I've seen so far. It's In Korean so cannot tell you what they say, but its a great account of how the airplane crashed.

Asiana777sfo

Wow, someone must have been up all night doing that animation. It even has the pirouette in at the end, like there is in the video released on Sunday.

Thanks for posting the link.
International Homo of Mystery
 
slcguy
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:50 pm

If the latest reports from the NTSB are correct that the airspeed was down to 103 kts (over 30kts below Vref!)! and the pilots only realized they might have a problem 7-8 seconds before impact scares the hell out of me! I mean no disrespect to Asiana or South Korea but I have serious concerns about their training and skills.
 
ryu2
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:51 pm

A good writeup in the WSJ about how United is helping in the response, in response to the discussion about whether they should have been.

http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2...lliance-helped-in-crash-aftermath/
 
sankaps
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting ryu2 (Reply 38):
A good writeup in the WSJ about how United is helping in the response, in response to the discussion about whether they should have been.

http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2...math/

A good, simple article that refutes a certain poster's hysterical rants very simply and effectively.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 30):
This might sound like a silly idea, but given the digitally advanced world we now live in, would it be (a) possible, and (b) prudent to have all takeoffs and landings videographed?

So far we have seen only couple of amateur videos. NTSB/SFPD probably collecting video recordings from surrounding high-rise buildings/business/city surveillance cameras... They are not going to post on YouTube or call a Media outlet. Public will see those when authorities release. So no doubt investigators will have lot more footage than they need.
 
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N328KF
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:03 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 33):
It might be neat to have, but honestly, given the cost of installing and maintaining several cameras at the end of each runway, networked into a central server, at every airport with commercial service, what would the value be?
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 35):
How many cameras do you need to cover the runway in better detail than the spotter? How much will it cost? Laying data cables would likely cost a lot more than the cameras.

Being in the network field, let me just say -- if you're running cabling for other things (lights, whatever) then the networking cable required to pull this off is not that big of a deal. $0.63 per foot for fiber, and that's retail. The expensive part is the labor to do this, but it's no worse than burying the other electrical wire. You don't need a lot of cameras if they track the inbound aircraft.

Or, worst case, just have the cameras at the tower with good lenses.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
airtechy
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:11 pm

NBC has a piece about the "Korean Culture" issues and how they may relate to the accident. Judging by the authors name he may be Korean with some expertise.

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/kore...ffer-clues-asiana-crash-6C10578732

AT

edit: type

[Edited 2013-07-09 13:17:22]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 35):
This is the first time since 1971 there has been an incident at SFO that a runway camera would have captured.

There's one other, one of Clay Lacy's Lears crashed on take-off in 1984, which closed SFO that night. I remember being able to see if from where I lived at the time in the Oakland-Piedmont hills. The report says it came down 10,000' feet from the approach end of 28L, so I'm guessing it was a couple of thousand feet off the end of the runway, given its length.

There was also a low cloud cover that night, so I don't know if cameras would have caught it all.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19841008-0
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tp1040
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:25 pm

The ILS was out of operation and the effect , if any, on the events is not yet obvious.

Not really germane to the crash, is it common for it to out at a major airport for such a long time.???

I know there are different systems in place to safely land a plane, but the ILS being out of service makes it one less tool a pilot has to safely land a plane. Seems like an unnecessary risk and poor management by the FAA and the airport. As flier, I want all the resources available, up to date and working.
 
WNbob
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 5):
All of this technical discussion about auto-this and auto-that and mode and stick shaker and engine spool up time and ILS OOS are irrelevant to the core issue

I too have an inkling that over-automatiion has played a critical part on this. After reading the 3 and 4 letters acronyms I came back with a headache, and pilots have to memorize these? and have instant (I hope) recall?

Compare to IT, everybody are now programmers, because they have made it so easy for everyone to do so, but if I ask them if they ever done assembly programming and know what their programs are doing to the hardware underneath, they have no clue.

I know at time I become complacent too and that's when it bites you. 10K of flight experience is not enough information, I want to know how many cycles, I want to know what challenging airports/conditions have this pilot encountered.

Air France 447 showed, once automation goes haywire, even so called experienced pilots can succumb. Scary.
 
slcguy
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting wnbob (Reply 45):
Air France 447 showed, once automation goes haywire, even so called experienced pilots can succumb. Scary.

While a problem with the automation doesn't appear to be the problem in this case, the lack thereof (ILS) raises questions about the basic piloting skills of the crew, How can you not land a plane in perfect conditions visually? This combined with AF447 where the pilots relied on the automation and ignored the basic flight information that would tell even a student pilot the aircraft was stalling.
 
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cjg225
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:11 pm

SIAP, but looks like ALPA is ticked at the NTSB for releasing information too soon, something a few here were saying was surprisingly nice about how the NTSB handled the first few days of this saga:

ALPA criticizes OZ crash investigation
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
D L X
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 19):
I think it speaks for itself. If it's legit, the mental image of the two girls who were killed possible having fallen out onto the runway behind the plane but surviving long enough to get up and move around is heartbreaking.

Do we know that the two people referred to in this email are the two girls that died? Reports said that many survivors had "road rash" that indicates they slid along the runway, thus having been ejected from the plane.

Quoting atnight (Reply 27):

I dont know if any here have seen this animation, sorry if it was posted before. However it is the best animation I've seen so far. It's In Korean so cannot tell you what they say, but its a great account of how the airplane crashed.

Asiana777sfo

And you know, that looks like the maneuvers seen in the amateur video.

Quoting AT (Reply 30):

This might sound like a silly idea, but given the digitally advanced world we now live in, would it be (a) possible, and (b) prudent to have all takeoffs and landings videographed?

If the goal is to capture crashes, that's more expense than it's worth considering how rare an occurrence that is. Hell, cameras on a loop would be much more valuable on city streets, capturing car wrecks so you can tell what happened, but I think it is pretty obvious that it would not be worth the expense there, even though car wrecks are pretty common.
Now, if a camera system were set up to aid in preventing runway incursions, that could be useful and cost effective at some of our busier airports.
 
sankaps
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7

Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:15 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 47):
ALPA criticizes OZ crash investigation

it says here that "Passengers also have reported that the plane was rolling from side to side during the approach, which in calm winds is another indication of stalling, said Hans Weber, president of TECOP International Inc and an aerospace consultant who has been an adviser to the FAA.

As soon as a plane goes below the minimum speed for a landing, there should be a vibration in the controls meant to warn pilots of a stall, he said.

"If they had commanded full throttle at that point," Weber said, "there's a good chance they would have made it." "

Raises the question: Did the stick-shaker activate too late?

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