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OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:43 pm

Hello all,

Part 7 has become quite long and will subsequently be locked in favor of part 8. This is in order to make it easier for members to find new information and to continue the discussion of this unfortunate event.

OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 7 (by moderators Jul 9 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks and regards,

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TheSultanOfWing
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:06 pm

Thread 8! Wow!

Question, what will happen to the remains of the plane, once the NTSB has finished with it?
I know it's up to the insurer......I am just curious whether they will go ahead and sell usable parts?
Will the Korean "apologetic culture" allow this or will they be picking up "the tab" to prevent that from happening?

And where will the wreckage end up, after it has been stripped?
Our respected fellow member SOON7X7 seems to be the scrapyard expert.......he apparently knows where the TWA800 and other jets ended up......
Would this be of any interest to a museum or aviation enthusiasts perhaps?

I was curious about the BA038 777 too, and that ended up at a local scrapyard I believe.


Just curious, thanks!
I feel like the A318 at times: I am probably worth more parted out than as a whole.
 
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Aesma
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:10 pm

From frmrcapcadet in previous thread :

Quote:
res automation, hands on flying. Are there any small one or two piston engine planes which are almost entirely fly-by-wire? It could be interesting if the settings were available to duplicate the responses of a large commercial jet. An hour or two in such a plane even once a year could give a commercial pilot a lot of experience hands on experience. It obviously would not be the same, but trainers may find it a very useful tool.

Diamond is developing a fly-by-wire DA42.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:19 pm

I don't know if this has been mentioned, from 2010 :

FAA study finds serious flaws in pilot training for handling automation

About AF447 :

Quoting tozairport (Reply 173):
How you can hold full back stick and think the airplane will fly forever is beyond belief. Reliance on automation and lack of proper stick and rudder flying skills has cost many lives, but none more than in AF 447.

An Airbus in normal law should indeed fly forever with the stick full aft.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
hivue
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting jollo from previous part: "SOPs *mandating* A/P to be engaged at all times are a disgrace and a safety hazard."

I'm sure there is no SOP anywhere mandating AP on for 100% of the flight. Also, I think that in areas where RVSM is enforced, AP use is required except in very unusual circumstances. Manual flying would present too much of a risk.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
WNbob
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:41 pm

Does the 777 have real-time diagnostic reporting back to HQ?

I ask because Asiana CEO seemed to know very quickly there was no MX problem.
 
747-600X
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:45 pm

hivue, are there any areas left where RVSM is not enforced?
 
mandala499
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 202):
I see your argument. However the United States has the great luxury of having a comparatively gigantic general aviation community plus a large amount of air travel with tons of airports. No way a country like Indonesia can support this sort of thing. The average income is just too low.

Yes, we have been trying to kickstart our GenAv sector so many bloody times.. and unsuccessful so far (especially when having Cessnas for flight training is seen as a luxury item and is therefore taxed extra).

Passedv1 may be interested to know that the airline here with zero accident rate (and zero pilot error incident rate) is on an airline that has NB FOs with less than 500hrs total time.

It's about how one matches the training to the aircraft, and environment.

As you (or someone said), the Europeans don't seem to have a problem with putting guys with less than 500hrs total time as NB FOs...

And for the "stick and rudder" fanatics, one aspect on why these guys here aren't turning their aircraft into flying lawnmowers is because of the amount of non-precision approaches we have here.

And I agree with Aaron747, just have a look at some of the approaches Koreans do domestically, and also some of the stuff they do into Japan (no, not Narita or Kansai... the other airports, some with interesting approaches).

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 242):

A pilot should be able to fly a visual approach on a clear day without PAPI lights. Anyway they were there and the pilot should have seen them just fine.

Well, one may screw up the vertical path without PAPI, BUT one should be able to avoid a crash/mishap in such a situation.

Quoting rc135x (Reply 258):
Ultimately in this crash, irrespective of understanding auto throttle functionality, I want to know where the PF's hands were: one on the yoke, most likely, but where was the other? If it was on the throttles why didn't the PF (or eventually the training pilot) simply push the darn things forward? If it wasn't on the throttles then WHY NOT? Problem solved. Reliance on a *system* to do the job for him? This has nothing to do with systems mastery, rather it demonstrates an abdication of essential flying skills to systems designers sitting in an office somewhere wondering why the pilot didn't follow the auto throttle procedures set forth in the instruction manual.

This is a very valid question. Even on the Bus FBW (non-moving thrust levers under autothrust), when handflying, it's one hand on the stick, the other on the thrust levers...

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 259):
they were confused about just what armed vs. activated implied.

What I want to know is what the FMA showed, did it show SPD mode was on, or not. If it showed SPD mode or another A/T active mode, then we have a malfunction.

Quoting WNbob (Reply 5):
Does the 777 have real-time diagnostic reporting back to HQ?

Yes it does, provided it's within ACARS and/or SATCARS coverage, or other comms range (such as data over SatCom that can use other software negating/replacing the need for feeding these info through ACARS/SATCARS)... provided it's activated.

(edited... error noticed)

[Edited 2013-07-10 12:23:08]
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rc135x
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 7):
The thing with the 777 is that it has trim to speed due to the FBW, not conventional trim. This makes the aircraft less flyable on all automation off... unless one is in direct law.

Perhaps you could clarify this---in the 777 does one not trim for airspeed on approach and use power to adjust sink rate?
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
hivue
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting 747-600X (Reply 6):
hivue, are there any areas left where RVSM is not enforced?

From this month's "Flying" magazine article on the Pilatus PC-12: "The airplane we were flying, the factory demonstrator, was not yet RVSM certified, so we weren't able to head up to 290..." They flew at FL270.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
mandala499
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting rc135x (Reply 8):
Perhaps you could clarify this---in the 777 does one not trim for airspeed on approach and use power to adjust sink rate?

Oh bummer! I just saw what I wrote! (I'll use my "it's 2am over here" excuse). Unbelieveable!
The basic logic of 'trim for airspeed and power for adjusting sink rate' is still valid for the 777 under the trim to speed trim system, and is valid even for other regimes of flight. The interrelation between trim, power and speed remains. Unfortunately, a lot of 'newbies' don't appreciate that once they get to nice shiny toys... I wonder what they teach in (the bad) flying schools these days? (not really worried about the good ones).
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mandala499
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting 747-600X (Reply 6):
hivue, are there any areas left where RVSM is not enforced?

Russian airspace (metric non-RVSM) and Africa if I remember correctly.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
peterjohns
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:58 pm

The whole thing now reminds me of the TK 737 accident at AMS . There are some similarities.
It is quite inconprehendable however, how three or even four pilots failed to notice the decreasing speed at such a vital part of the approach. The increasing angle of attack would be a second hint.
Perhaps a bit more stick and rudder flying would help...
 
shrike
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:15 pm

I have not seen any discussion yet on the possibility of a highly un-sterile cockpit. We have had a lot of discussion about all sorts of Korean cultural impacts, automation reliance, time on type etc. But it seems to me that the obvious question if neither pilot bothered to look at the air speed indicator is: what were they doing? What were they joking and talking about? I think awesome Chairwoman Hersman is also an awesome poker player and is very very precise is what she says and, more importantly, what she does not say. She said no-one in the cockpit commented on the situation until 7 seconds and didn't even mention going around until 1.5 seconds. She did NOT say that they were just sitting there silently admiring the view! She has pointedly talked multiple times about needing to understand how the flight crew were working together and how both pilots should be involved. For her to say more at this stage would not be a simple "fact that will not change during the investigation" so she is not going to say it, probably not until the final report. But I think she knows - she has listened to the CVR, and asked the translator: what the hell's going on?!

What is the experts experience of good sterile cockpit adherence on Asiana or other Korean airlines? Good? Bad? I note that sterile cockpit is a section 121 regulation, so do foreign carriers adhere to it very well? Interesting that Chairwoman Hersman is already putting the "why different for section 129 carriers?" question up in the air with her drug/alcohol test statement yesterday. I can already see some of the recommendations being written in the air above her head...

I will leave the culture warriors to comment on the possible un-sterile bombast-level of a confident, all-male, Korean, two ex-air-force, flight crew flying into an exciting city on a beautiful calm day where nothing can go wrong.

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LTC8K6
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:28 pm

Is being that far to the right of center, that late in the approach, normal?

I haven't heard much discussion of that error except that the pilots were trying to correct it.

Is that a big error or a normal variation?

If you look at the impact point, which is off to the right, and try to backtrack, it seems like they might have been pretty far to the right of the center line, but it's hard to judge.
 
shrike
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:32 pm

The PF was actually transferring from being a 9 year A320 captain to becoming a B777 captain. His B747 experience seems to have been over 9 years ago. Most recently he was on the A320 and was also an instructor and presumably very confident on the A320/A321. So are there possible transition issues from A320 to B777 especially with regard to A/Th engagement and use behavior? Yes I know he would have studied/simmed this, but this was probably the first time it mattered!

* Long time reader, new poster, ianap
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:47 pm

OZ214 Flight Crew press conference to begin shortly. CNN says Flight Crew could be Cabin Crew.
 
dank
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:59 pm

Quote:
Quote:
Ideally, arriving flights from the north or the Pacific fly south from Point
Reyes to the bay, where they take a sharp right turn onto SFO. Called the ?slam
dunk? approach, this is the quietest flight pattern.

Can anybody comment on this particular approach pattern?

My experience is that some of my flights from Europe come in down the bay and a take a clockwise turn into the landing pattern like described here. However, all my flights from Asia have come in directly over SFO and made a counterclockwise turn into the landing pattern as was described for this flight (presumably the former for 28R and the latter for 28L).
 
rj777
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:18 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 16):
OZ214 Flight Crew press conference to begin shortly. CNN says Flight Crew could be Cabin Crew.

Now they're saying that the PILOTS are going to be speaking.
 
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airkas1
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:43 pm

I've been following these threads since the first one and find it very interesting, not in the last place because of the know-how displayed on this forum. Keep up the good work!  Smile

I just read an article about this crash on the main Dutch news website for aviation. I'm not sure if it has been posted already, but I thought I'd try to contribute. The article states the following:

"South Korean media reports that the pilot on the jumpseat called "sink rate, sink rate" about 54 seconds before impact. They base their info from the CVR recording. The article suggests that one of the reasons that the 2 pilots up front didn't listen could be because of the hierarchy structure; both pilots were older, had more hours and were higher in rang."


Article (in Dutch and for members only): http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL...e_piloot_Asiana_zag_het_gevaar_wel

[Edited 2013-07-10 14:44:43]

[Edited 2013-07-10 14:45:30]
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shrike
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:47 pm

Wednesday NTSB briefing currently live with Chairwoman Hersman deciding to deliver an extensive teaching session about automation levels and sophistication to the media there  . She tells them it's not as simple as cruise control... but I don't know if this will improve the reporting. So now waiting for Wolf Blitzer to break in and say something stupid.
 
Norcal773
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:54 pm

So I've been sitting here waiting for the crew press conference then they show up and don't say a word. Someone must have forgotten to inform them that in a 'Press Conference', one is expected to speak.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
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cjg225
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting shrike (Reply 20):
Wednesday NTSB briefing currently live with Chairwoman Hersman deciding to deliver an extensive teaching session about automation levels and sophistication to the media there . She tells them it's not as simple as cruise control... but I don't know if this will improve the reporting. So now waiting for Wolf Blitzer to break in and say something stupid.

Aahhhhh!

What channel or where online?

EDIT: Nevermind. Found a stream.

EDIT #2: What. The. Hell. Stream changed to stuff about the Zimmerman trial. Looking for another one...

EDIT #3: Here's CNN's one.



[Edited 2013-07-10 14:58:35]

[Edited 2013-07-10 15:02:37]

[Edited 2013-07-10 15:03:00]

[Edited 2013-07-10 15:04:20]
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KarelXWB
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:01 pm

Updates via Twitter:

> Two flight attendants sitting on right-hand side of #Asiana214 were pinned by evacuation slides inside. Three at back of cabin were ejected.
> After crash, #Asiana214 attendant asked crew whether an evacuation should start. Crew said no; announcement made over PA to stay in seats.
> Per NTSB: After announcement, a flight attendant saw fire outside the right-hand side of #Asiana214. Told crew. Then evacuation began.

http://twitter.com/laura_nelson

> From @NTSB: Unknown why slides inflated inside the aircraft #Asiana214
> From @NTSB: Initially the flight crew said not to evacuate and passengers were told to stay in their seats.
> From @NTSB: FA reported fire and the pilots asked for an evacuation of the aircraft. #Asiana214
> From @NTSB: 1.5min after the plane came to a stop, then first doors were opened and slides deployed.
> From @NTSB: About 2min after the crash, first emergency veh arrived. 3min after, first extinguishing agent put on aircraft.

http://twitter.com/AirlineReporter
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flyinggoat
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:02 pm

Hersman mentioned that 3 of the 4 FAs in the rear were ejected from the aircraft. It's amazing that they survived.
 
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cjg225
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:05 pm

What flash of light is she talking about? When was this revealed?
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tortugamon
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:11 pm

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 19):
"South Korean media reports that the pilot on the jumpseat called "sink rate, sink rate" about 54 seconds before impact.

This just got brought up during the Q&A. Mentioning of 'sink rate' was confirmed but not the 54 second mark. This could be an interesting development.

tortugamon
 
canoecarrier
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:12 pm

Quoting FlyingGoat (Reply 24):
Hersman mentioned that 3 of the 4 FAs in the rear were ejected from the aircraft. It's amazing that they survived.

Proximity to the ground may have contributed to that. All that tells me is that the remaining FAs did a yeoman like job to get all but 2 people out alive with some of the crew missing/injured.
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cjg225
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 26):
This just got brought up during the Q&A. Mentioning of 'sink rate' was confirmed but not the 54 second mark. This could be an interesting development.

I wonder who asked the question and where the South Korean media got that from. You'd think that something like that would've come out in the interview... unless she was avoiding that subject on purpose.
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AA94
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:14 pm

If anyone is going to set the media straight, it seems like Hersman.

On a related note, I propose CNN be banned from covering this event any further, attending future press conferences, or inviting another "expert" to provide commentary on live TV.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
rj777
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:16 pm

CNN had a video square for the live feed for the pilot's press conference..... but when I hit refresh....it was gone. Guess the pilots suddenly decided not to talk after all.
 
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cjg225
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:18 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 29):
If anyone is going to set the media straight, it seems like Hersman.

On a related note, I propose CNN be banned from covering this event any further, attending future press conferences, or inviting another "expert" to provide commentary on live TV.

Funny thing, just a few years ago I considered them to be one of the better sources of news amongst the mainstream US TV media. Now they are laughably bad at their coverage.

I watch them pretty much only at the gym now since a few of the TVs are permanently tuned to CNN...

HLN is getting awful, too. When I was a kid, HLN was a really good news source. Now they are trying to be some hip, trendy news source and it is driving me insane. You'd think they'd try to differentiate CNN and HLN from each other somehow.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 30):
CNN had a video square for the live feed for the pilot's press conference..... but when I hit refresh....it was gone. Guess the pilots suddenly decided not to talk after all.

I tuned into CNN when someone mentioned above that there would be a crew presser. When I first tuned in, there was a box in the lower right saying that there'd be a presser soon. When I tuned into the live feed for the NTSB presser, I saw nothing.
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tortugamon
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 28):

I would like to review the video again because her word usage was very deliberate at that point. Not unlike any other moment really, but she seemed to hone in on that 54 second figure as the basis for her response rather than discounting the statement itself.

It could be very significant that someone in the cabin acknowledge one of the potential causes of the crash nearly a minute before with no appropriate response/adjustment.

CNN's coverage has been pretty poor. Some of the written articles on CNN.com have been poor as well. It is unfortunate considering their other recent problems.

tortugamon
 
shrike
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 19):
"South Korean media reports that the pilot on the jumpseat called "sink rate, sink rate" about 54 seconds before impact. They base their info from the CVR recording. The article suggests that one of the reasons that the 2 pilots up front didn't listen could be because of the hierarchy structure; both pilots were older, had more hours and were higher in rang."


The media does not have access to the CVR and the NTSB has not released information like this in any briefing. So the purported information is coming from somewhere else. They made it up? Or FO comments to Asiana relayed to media (I assume flight crew is not talking directly to media)?
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:30 pm

This is pretty stunning stuff ... 54 seconds out ... and no call for evacuation initially ... not good.
 
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cjg225
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 32):

I would like to review the video again because her word usage was very deliberate at that point. Not unlike any other moment really, but she seemed to hone in on that 54 second figure as the basis for her response rather than discounting the statement itself.

I think that's appropriate, though.

She was pointing out that, whatever the guy was saying (and we only heard what she repeated, at least if you were watching the CNN feed), it was extremely specific, and the question did seem to take a long time. The specificity might make it difficult to answer.

I mean, we know that EVENTUALLY someone said something. The only way you'd get something like, "at 54 seconds out, the relief FO said they were descending too fast" is from the CVR, because even if you've talked to the FO personally, I'm sure the FO is unable to say, "yeah, at exactly 54 seconds before the crash I said, 'hey, we're gonna crash if you don't reduce our sink rate.'". You're right that she homed in on the 54 seconds part and that could be why; no CVR info is out, right? No one should be able to put a number like that to whatever is said at this point.

Maybe she knew what the reporter was getting at but it's not something she was prepared to discuss at that moment.
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rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:36 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 14):
Is being that far to the right of center, that late in the approach, normal?

I haven't heard much discussion of that error except that the pilots were trying to correct it.

Yesterday afternoon's briefing said that the interview with the PNF that the crew was trying to correct their lineup.

It did not say where the aircraft was at that time. Based on the way she described the information - it appears to me that was in the last 15 seconds or so.

With the aircraft in that low of an energy state, the controls would be sluggish - and correcting the lineup would be difficult. If it was in the last 15 seconds, they would have quite trying to line-up and started their attempts to increase power.

Again - my guess from the information presented - no one actually said that was the timing/ sequence.
 
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cjg225
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:37 pm

Quoting shrike (Reply 33):
Or FO comments to Asiana relayed to media (I assume flight crew is not talking directly to media)?

But, like I said, that still might not explain it because the 54 seconds number would have to be totally made up. I find it extremely unlikely that the FO was looking at his watch for the entire final minute of the flight and knew that at the time of the crash he said, 54 seconds ago, "sink rate, sink rate." You can only get that kind of info off the CVR at this point and that hasn't been released.

I haven't been following this quite as tightly as others have; has the NTSB even transcribed the CVR yet and sent a copy to Asiana or South Korea's version of the NTSB? That'd be the only way I could see this being possible. Hersman either had no idea what this guy was talking about or the NTSB does have something like this and she was not prepared to discuss it (and was kinda peeved that it was leaked).
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rj777
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:37 pm

OK..... where is the press conference with the crew?
 
tortugamon
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:39 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 35):
Maybe she knew what the reporter was getting at but it's not something she was prepared to discuss at that moment.

Of course this is just speculation but I think you may be right. I would like someone to confirm but I have to believe that she does have CFR information.

tortugamon
 
rfields5421
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 35):
Maybe she knew what the reporter was getting at but it's not something she was prepared to discuss at that moment.

She has been trained, and is very good, at not letting the reporters set the agenda or tone of the briefings.

It is a briefing, not a press conference. There is a difference.

She starts with a written script which the technical staff has helped develop. It is carefully worded to be very specific about what they do know. She stays on that script. She will not say anything which is not on her script.

She purposely stays away from allowing reporters to put things like "54 seconds" into her mouth. That is a technique public relations professionals teach people who will be in her position. Do not allow the media to make you quote their spin on the events - focus on a specific point which is wrong, or appears to be speculation - and point out that it is not correct.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 39):
I would like someone to confirm but I have to believe that she does have CFR information.

On Sunday - she said the DCVR had been listened to. That it was a preliminary scan of the voice information.

She mentioned some specific things that were on the CVR - such as 137 knots - that was what was mentioned on the CVR as the target speed. She was very specific that she could and would not confirm that 137 knots was the correct air speed for landing that airplane at that weight on that day.

She also said the complete CVR and FDR data would not be available for release until it had been correlated with data from other sources. She did not say so - but from past practice - we can expect that information only when an Interim or Final Report is released.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 37):
has the NTSB even transcribed the CVR yet and sent a copy to Asiana or South Korea's version of the NTSB?

Again from Saturday, there had been an initial scan of the voice information.

As far as a transcript, since some of it is obviously in Korean - that will take time. I'm sure, but have not heard any confirmation, that Korean investigators have been able to listen to that first read. It would only make sense in trying to put statements in cultural perspective.

The investigators have to plot the CVR timeline against the FDR timeline, and the ATC tape timeline, and any other sources of data.

We've seen too often that just a CVR transcript can be misleading.

[Edited 2013-07-10 15:56:11]
 
shrike
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:54 pm

 
tortugamon
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 40):
She did not say so - but from past practice - we can expect that information only when an Interim or Final Report is released.

And if I am not mistaken that will only appear in transcript form. I think the conversations with ATC can be made public but the actual conversations between pilots in the cockpit is not something for public distribution. A transcript will work just fine for these purposes though.

tortugamon
 
AeroWesty
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting shrike (Reply 41):
Where to find previous NTSB briefings:

This link also has briefings plus B-rolls. Go to the 'Recent uploads' section.

http://www.youtube.com/user/NTSBgov
International Homo of Mystery
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 38):
OK..... where is the press conference with the crew?

6 out of 10 Korean flight attendants are taking OZ213 today and go back to Korea. They may have some press conference before leaving, but it will be again about how brave and how cool they were, and how much they tried to save more passengers, which cannot hear without tears. I'm not trying to undermine their efforts, but according to some other news article in Korea, NTSB told to Asiana not to have anymore press conference because it won't help for unbiased investigation. Obviously some information that NTSB didn't know yet came out of one of Asiana's press conferences. And more and more people will have sympathy to the airline due to the conferences.

Asiana did many things like this whenever it had accidents. Mass media covers more about how brave pilots were and how dramatic the situations were which fillet out critical voices and make us focus on something else.

Edit: news article says there was no press conference before they left and some reporters complained for wrong announcement made by Asiana. Obviously, Asiana told them there will be a press conference.
 
reality
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 44):
I'm not trying to undermine their efforts, but according to some other news article in Korea, NTSB told to Asiana not to have anymore press conference because it won't help for unbiased investigation. Obviously some information that NTSB didn't know yet came out of one of Asiana's press conferences. And more and more people will have sympathy to the airline due to the conferences.

Asiana did many things like this whenever it had accidents. Mass media covers more about how brave pilots were and how dramatic the situations were which fillet out critical voices and make us focus on something else.

Very interesting post. Please let us know from time to time how people in Korea are reacting and what information is being distributed there....especially if there is a different slant in the coverage. Thanks.
 
mandala499
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 36):
It did not say where the aircraft was at that time. Based on the way she described the information - it appears to me that was in the last 15 seconds or so.

If I remember correctly it was between 500' to 200'.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Klaus
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting rc135x:
Turns OFF the auto throttle = less confusing and safer.

If you're always confused by automation, you a) have not tried very hard to understand it, b) it is actually an implementation mess or c) you may not be in the right decade for flying transport aircraft.

Quoting rc135x:
I am a pilot, not a systems operator or user.

As long as human beings don't suddenly sprout wings and native flying instincts, human pilots have always been systems operators and users and will always remain that too.

Quoting rc135x:
In this thread we have seen highly experienced heavy jet airline pilots explain the complexities of auto throttles and even amongst this august group there is uncertainty or confusion about how they work under certain conditions.

Quite possible that it's just not a good implementation if there are indeed too many interrelated state transitions to safely keep track of.

Bad usability in a specific system implementation has little to do with the fundamental merits of automation as a concept, however, particularly compared to a proper implementation.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:45 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 29):
inviting another "expert" to provide commentary on live TV.

One of those experts is our (A.net) own Patrick Smith (aka 'Aviateur').
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: OZ 777 Crash At SFO Part 8

Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:05 am

Regarding the relief F/O yelling "sink rate", I think it is too early to automatically attribute this to cultural issues. It might well be tunnel vision instead.

Compare to AF447 when the F/O kept pulling back and ignoring information, including being spoken to by the other crew members.



Quoting frmcapcadet from previous thread:
Are there any small one or two piston engine planes which are almost entirely fly-by-wire? It could be interesting if the settings were available to duplicate the responses of a large commercial jet. An hour or two in such a plane even once a year could give a commercial pilot a lot of experience hands on experience. It obviously would not be the same, but trainers may find it a very useful tool.

As mentioned, Diamond is developing a FBW DA-42. However there is no reason to require the plane to be FBW. Stick and rudder skills can be developed just fine in a Duchess or Seneca and be applicable to large jets. Of course there will be differences, but as mandala499 mentions, the relationships between speed, thrust/power, weight, lift and drag do not change just because the plane is 200x heavier. Yes, a 777 has more inertia, but it still reacts in a similar way, albeit with more "lag".

Having said that, I have thought of it overnight, and am thinking perhaps a better solution might be to do what rc135x has mentioned about the USAF. Put the guys in the 777 sim and have them fly an two or three hours of visual traffic patterns and visual approaches every six months or so. Make it part of recurrent training.

Quoting shrike (Reply 13):
* Long time reader, new poster, ianap

Welcome to a.nut!
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
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