ThomasCook
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Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:14 am

Hi,

Heathrow has now released its counter proposal with three plans for a 3rd runway to the north, north west or south west;

http://your.heathrow.com/dossier/1-2...on-options-to-airports-commission/

The earliest any option could be ready would be 2025. Personally, I am backing the 3rd runway.

Thanks
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:03 am

Excellent, wasn't expecting this until Friday.

My opinion is still that a clean sheet airport would be best, but that an expanded LHR is all we are going to get. These plans are in line with what I expected and are very sensible in their approach to noise, environment and capacity planning. It is especially nice to see them considering a third runway allowing service to ten UK regional airports at three flights a day - the economic impact this would have in said regions is significant. But this would need to be a planning condition for a long duration (99 years or so) to be meaningful, otherwise the current situation would repeat itself.


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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:32 am

Not sure of the rationale behind the new terminal buildings they show in each option. This will be another terminal that is remote from the central area and will suffer the same problems caused when T4 was located remotely. Surely the terminal capacity would be better added East of the new T2 or West of T5 but still along the central spine?

All three runway options have issues, I'm not even sure which is best for me (although the NW option brings the airport boundary a mile (+) closer to my house) let alone working out which is best (aka "least worst") for the populace as a whole.

And I still believe that the best solution for London is a 2nd runway at STN and 2nd runway at LGW, giving three high capacity airports arranged evenly around the city.

[Edited 2013-07-17 04:34:23]
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:41 am

Been looking through the plans, the outline looks good, Have to say the best option seems to be The North-West, it provides medium cost and complexity good possible timescales and highest possible capacity. Also when you look at the plans for a 4th runway, it decreases the complexity/cost of those options.

Personally I would look at going straight for the four runway North-West/South-West idea.

If you go for the north-west option, then look at the south west for runway four, then pencil in another two on the end of the current pair, does that not look like the plan for 6 runways at Estuary airport?
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:50 am

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 3):
Personally I would look at going straight for the four runway North-West/South-West idea.

My pick as well.

I am however astonished as to why it would take 10 years at least to build runways!!! They could build the runway faster and use it in the first stage as a back up to minize disruptions when they happen and add a handful of regional flights if needed.
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:50 am

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 3):
the best option seems to be The North-West,

It's in Green Belt land and the runway end would be about 3 miles from Eton (and in a direct line) - I can see problems with this option  

In my view: "going straight for the four runway North-West/South-West idea" has no hope of being adopted. This is a very difficult political decision (~10% of the UK population (so ~10% of the UK votes) live within 15 miles of LHR and they almost all have a view on LHR expansion - often negative). No politician is going to commit to any more than they absolutely have to and anything that can be pushed into the long grass, will be.

[Edited 2013-07-17 04:55:55]
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Thread starter):
three plans for a 3rd runway to the north, north west or south

by the looks of the proposals, it seems that LHR planners have been reading a.net threads these past years  
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
This will be another terminal that is remote from the central area and will suffer the same problems caused when T4 was located remotely. Surely the terminal capacity would be better added East of the new T2 or West of T5 but still along the central spine?

Agree, but there is not much more room left along the central corridor to add concourses. If this plan goes through, I would just demolish T4 altogether as it would be horribly out of place and disfunctional with any of the proposals (and free up that space for more cargo or maintenance). Current T4 capacity should be moved to the new terminals created in-between the new runways.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
And I still believe that the best solution for London is a 2nd runway at STN and 2nd runway at LGW, giving three high capacity airports arranged evenly around the city.

Fully agree... But given the state of things after 30 years of lack of infrastructure planning, and the political impossibility of getting any runway approved anywhere, we need to welcome any additional runway, anywhere in the LON area, that actually manages to get approved and built, whether it's the optimal solution or not.
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:29 pm

I think I favour the the NorthWest runway, just hope someone remembers that they will need to buy some more snow ploughs.     

on a serious note with a new runway inplace would the fire service numbers need to be enlarged?
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 6):
by the looks of the proposals, it seems that LHR planners have been reading a.net threads these past years

Oh I think they do from time to time  
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 7):
on a serious note with a new runway inplace would the fire service numbers need to be enlarged?

Yes and no. You don'e necessarily have to add more cover if you add a runway, you could have a situation like at MAN where you re-position the cover depending on runway usage. However at LHR you can bet the runway will be in operation all of the time, so they will have to add a new RFFS facility alongside any new runway to maintain response times.


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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:51 pm

Any new runway at LHR will be complicated to build, 2 of the proposals intrude on the M25 (which is 10 or 12 lanes wide at this point?), so moving this or putting it in tunnel would be a major task
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:56 pm

Even though I'm firmly in support of extending Heathrow I do think these proposals are useful, informative and very good.

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 3):
Personally I would look at going straight for the four runway North-West/South-West idea.

Yes, although get the NW one online first.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 5):
It's in Green Belt land and the runway end would be about 3 miles from Eton (and in a direct line) - I can see problems with this option

And I wonder, will HMtheQ have anything to say too - as urban legend has it that an American tourist once asked: "why did they build Windsor Castle on the approach to Heathrow" !!!

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
Surely the terminal capacity would be better added East of the new T2 or West of T5 but still along the central spine?

I thought that too.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 6):
If this plan goes through, I would just demolish T4 altogether as it would be horribly out of place and disfunctional with any of the proposals (and free up that space for more cargo or maintenance).

Which seems to make better sense, then the new T2 can be extended with several more piers.
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:57 pm

I have no doubt the NIMBYs will be able to block this.   
LHR has needed expansion for 20 years, yet there is no end in sight.

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 3):
Personally I would look at going straight for the four runway North-West/South-West idea.

Might as well grow it as it should be!

Quoting r2rho (Reply 6):
But given the state of things after 30 years of lack of infrastructure planning, and the political impossibility of getting any runway approved anywhere, we need to welcome any additional runway, anywhere in the LON area, that actually manages to get approved and built, whether it's the optimal solution or not.

   London can either take advantage of new smaller longer range aircraft or be bypassed by them. Their choice.

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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:04 pm

Meanwhile, 70 new airports will be built in China.  
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:22 pm

Building both new runways at once isn't an option, the fourth runway will only be added when capacity dictates. Aside of demand, the costs would be huge.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 12):
Meanwhile, 70 new airports will be built in China.

Only 70? What has caused them to slow down?  


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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 9):
Any new runway at LHR will be complicated to build, 2 of the proposals intrude on the M25 (which is 10 or 12 lanes wide at this point?), so moving this or putting it in tunnel would be a major task

I would suggest that any further enlargement of LHR will also require the motorway to be widened in order to cope with demand.
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 13):

Even an environmentalist I know wishes they would make a decision and get on with it.
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:32 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15):
Even an environmentalist I know wishes they would make a decision and get on with it.

Perhaps they are one of the enlightened few who do not insist on comparing 737 classics to next generation electric trains.


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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:36 pm

I'd personally favour the west runway plan, but angle it differently so it lies more SW / NE and keep it within the M25, and use it for take-offs heading SW towards the M25 only, similar to FRA's west runway in being a take-off only runway. That way only the spur road from the M25 to southern perimeter road needs to be tunnelled.
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:44 pm

I back STN expansion all the way. The space is here, the transport links would be relatively easily upgraded and are already better than many here like to make out. The whole Heathrow area is a horrible mess and hugely congested. Give LGW another runway too.
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:46 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 10):
And I wonder, will HMtheQ have anything to say too - as urban legend has it that an American tourist once asked: "why did they build Windsor Castle on the approach to Heathrow" !!!

King Charles, never mind his Old Etonian son(s), will certainly have something to say. i.e. 'no'. And that will be that.
Lucky we have these unelected 'representatives' in our corner, eh?   
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 9):
Any new runway at LHR will be complicated to build, 2 of the proposals intrude on the M25 (which is 10 or 12 lanes wide at this point?), so moving this or putting it in tunnel would be a major task

Not negligible, I agree, but on the scale of things, just another part of the job.

I reiterate what I said earlier when looking at the Hong Kong experience, the HK government was not put off by the costs of building the new HKG. OK, they had no motorway to move, because they first created an entirely new island, then the infrastructure from the city to the new airport - it's all just so impressive and on a massive scale, and it was completed in double quick time

Moving the M25 a bit, or tunneling part of it, is peanuts in comparison to the HKG project. No idea how much it cost, I suppose that was in the end not the tightest constraint!

I wish the UK government could learn from its former HK colonial government!
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:51 pm

Interesting.
Isn't the NW option literally built over BA's current HQ?
I would be curious to hear their opinion on the different options.
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:54 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 6):
Agree, but there is not much more room left along the central corridor to add concourses

Another terminal could be put on the central spine West of the M25 (or straddling the M25) - W of M25 is currently a rather uninspiring industrial estate (apologies to anyone who works there   ) and the north end of a reservoir.

PS - given London's already precarious water situation, I wonder what the solution is for the reservoir capacity lost in some of these proposals?
PS - the SW proposal also has an issue with SSSIs (including nationally important locations for specific birds). I'm not seeing the SW proposal as viable.

The Northern proposal seems to me to have the least issues but probably destroys more houses(?)

"King Charles, never mind his Old Etonian son(s), will certainly have something to say. i.e. 'no'."
Remember that DavCam and BoJo are also both Old Etonians and are elected and will have the final decision.

[Edited 2013-07-17 06:58:01]
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 22):
"King Charles, never mind his Old Etonian son(s), will certainly have something to say. i.e. 'no'."
Remember that DavCam and BoJo are also both Old Etonians and are elected and will have the final decision.


The potential construction tender winners to build an Estuary airport... their CEOs wouldn't happen to have attended a certain school as well, perhaps?

[Edited 2013-07-17 07:22:59]
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 20):
I reiterate what I said earlier when looking at the Hong Kong experience, the HK government was not put off by the costs of building the new HKG. OK, they had no motorway to move, because they first created an entirely new island,

Whilst I am a huge fan of HKG as a city, entity, SAR, etc......the above and what is posted at reply 42 of the 'Boris' thread is frankly fantasy.

Chep Lak Kok was an island that was merged with the larger Lam Chau because of the airport project. Anyone who has either flown into or out of Chep Lak Kok cannot believe that the airport rests on an 'entirely new island'.

And the claim that some of bridges associated with Chep Lak Kok are 'some of the largest in the world' (aforementioned thread) is again, well off the mark. I am based at one end of the Danyang-Kunshan Grand Bridge; it's length? A mere 164.8 km. That's around double the distance from the railway clock in Tsim Sha Tsui to the customs and immigration post near Shenzhen.

Nevertheless, corrections aside, I do agree with your views. However, comparing pre-handover Hong Kong with present day UK is, in my mind, somewhat an apples and oranges comparison. The fact is that 'developing economies', no matter how they are governed have much less barriers to overcome with respect to the design and construction of entirely new airports. However, any of us who have used SHA, GMP and TSA may agree with me that neither of these places are in any way shabby places to catch a flight. All three, though, are very much secondary airports within their respective cities for international traffic.

I think someone (Dan?) has been suggesting a similar role for LHR should an entirely new London airport be built. Again, great. Can I see it functional in my lifetime? Sadly, no, due to the political situation and the workings of the UK government bureaucracy machine.

Rant over.....not that it's really been a rant!

Regards

B-2319
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
And I still believe that the best solution for London is a 2nd runway at STN and 2nd runway at LGW, giving three high capacity airports arranged evenly around the city.

I disagree.

I'm not entirely sure of the situation at LGW, but I know at STN there is heavy opposition to an expansion there as it is. Also when you consider a good proportion of traffic through LHR is connecting traffic, you have to accommodate for that and moving traffic to another airport doesn't allow for that.

Also, LHR has a good foundation on which to build what with its location and transport connections. STN and LGW whilst both having their railway stations, offer somewhat poorer connections into London itself (not so much LGW). Also both STN & LGW are in somewhat poor locations compared to LHR which is easily accessible for most people within 150 miles.

As far as LHR goes if it were me making the decision, I would bite the bullet and go with the 4 runway option to the north & south west of the current airport. Then a decision can be made further on as to whether a brand new airport needs constructed elsewhere.
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):

And I still believe that the best solution for London is a 2nd runway at STN and 2nd runway at LGW, giving three high capacity airports arranged evenly around the city.

That's not the question that we're answering though is it? We're trying to arrange a working national hub airport, additional capacity serving London is not the same thing.
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:54 pm

B-2319,

Thanks for your post - very informative. I followed up your bit about the world's longest bridges, and Wiki came up with an amazing table! Yes, there are some incredibly long bridges out there!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_bridges_in_the_world

Quoting voodoo (Reply 23):
the claim that some of bridges associated with Chep Lak Kok are 'some of the largest in the world' (aforementioned thread) is again, well off the mark

I see that many of these mega-long brides are actually "elevated roads" rather than spanning some very wide channel of water, a bit like the metro in New York or the road into Bangkok! In that light, the suspension bridges built as part of the Chep Lak Kok project are up there in terms of longest spans over deep water. I have driven over the bridge that spans the Tagus in Portugal from Lisbon - it is quite long and almost all over water, but its main span (allowing large ships to pass under it) is (according to Wiki) only 250m long!

Quoting b2319 (Reply 24):
Chep Lap Kok was an island that was merged with the larger Lam Chau because of the airport project. Anyone who has either flown into or out of Chep Lak Kok cannot believe that the airport rests on an 'entirely new island'

I have flown into/out of HKG many times. The best form of transport to/from the airport is the "E" series of buses, as they have a wander through the cargo/Cathy Pacific bits of the airport, and are clearly designed for use by local employees. It is quite evident on several stretches of the bus ride that the pancake-flat area on which the airport resides is built on a man-made structure. Witness the millions of concrete cubes shoring up the perimeter. Yes, it is built onto Lantau Island

There is a National Geographic documentary on the HKG project that I saw many years ago! Very interesting. I cant quickly find the link. It covers both the construction project, and the changeover!
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 27):
I see that many of these mega-long brides are actually "elevated roads" rather than spanning some very wide channel of water, a bit like the metro in New York or the road into Bangkok! In that light, the suspension bridges built as part of the Chep Lak Kok project are up there in terms of longest spans over deep water. I have driven over the bridge that spans the Tagus in Portugal from Lisbon - it is quite long and almost all over water, but its main span (allowing large ships to pass under it) is (according to Wiki) only 250m long!

I happen to live next to Yangcheng Lake, and the span over the water there is 9 km on the railway line; >1.8 times the longest I could find for Hong Kong which was Shenzhen Bay, then Causeway Bay.

Don't misunderstand me: the overnight migration from Kai Tak to Chep Lak Kok was amazingly smooth.

Pre-Olympics: Could I think the UK could ever pull off such a similar operation; LHR> XXX? No
Post-Olympics, and not a sneer at our friends in BER: Maybe.  

I never want to be rude in my posts. As a Scot, who has lived in Switzerland for 4 four years.....enhanced Germanic behaviour....., I am glad you took my post in the spirit it was intended; so much credit to yourself....  

Regards

B-2319
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:23 pm

I do not see a third runway at LHR as any more than a temporary solution so I would suggest that plans be submitted for 2 extra runways. For LHR to offer the required capacity to be London's hub airport up to 2050 onwards, it will require 4 runways.

Much of the time spent on realising large building projects in the UK is spent on obtaining approval for the project. For that reason I think approval should be sought for 2 more runways. If approval is not given for both I think the proposal should be abandoned - building a 3rd runway at LHR without knowing for certain that a 4th can be built when required makes no sense to me. You face the possibility of spending billions of pounds on a 3rd runway at LHR then having to build a new airport with the possibility of 5/6 runways somewhere else 20 or so years later.

Better to start on another airport now than to continue expanding LHR unless its long term future is assured IMO.
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 20):
I reiterate what I said earlier when looking at the Hong Kong experience, the HK government was not put off by the costs of building the new HKG. OK, they had no motorway to move, because they first created an entirely new island, then the infrastructure from the city to the new airport - it's all just so impressive and on a massive scale, and it was completed in double quick time

I agree it was an amazing project on a monumental scale with amazingly integrated planning but wasn't new HKG completed in such a short time frame to empty the Hong Kong coffers pre-handover to China? I believe it was to ensure that Hong Kong money was spent to benefit the territory not just siphoned off to Beijing.

I doubt the UK has the funds nor the appetite to complete something on the same scale in the same timeframe.
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 30):

I alluded to some of this earlier, and whereas Wiki can be bollocks from time to time, it isn't going to be bollocks 16 years afterwards.....

In March 1979, the Governor of Hong Kong Murray MacLehose paid his first official visit to the People's Republic of China (PRC), taking the initiative to raise the question of Hong Kong's sovereignty with Deng Xiaoping. Without clarifying and establishing the official position of the PRC government, the arranging of real estate leases and loans agreements in Hong Kong within the next 18 years would be rather difficult. In fact, as early as the mid-1970s, Hong Kong had faced additional risks raising loans for large scale infrastructure projects such as its MTR system and a new airport. Caught unprepared, Deng asserted the necessity of Hong Kong's return to China, upon which Hong Kong would be given special status by the PRC government.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_sovereignty_over_Hong_Kong

Regards

B-2319
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting VFRonTop (Reply 30):
to empty the Hong Kong coffers pre-handover to China? I believe it was to ensure that Hong Kong money was spent to benefit the territory not just siphoned off to Beijing

OK! The Chancellor of the last outgoing Labour government left a note on his desk for his successor saying "There's no money left in the kitty" or words to that effect. So that bit of the job has been done already!

Also consider that in the UK it takes years and years for planning permission to be examined (let alone granted) - so that's the timescale angle covered as well

Actually, even if we all blink at the money numbers (of £18B or so), in light of the annual UK government budget of almost £200B (which is what - 50% GDP?), £18B spread over a multi-year period is actually peanuts.

I'm sure the up-side of spending that £18B would be returned PDQ! With interest off into the future!
 
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:56 pm

Am I right in thinking that the northwest option would require the demolition of Waterside?

Thanks.
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 20):
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 9):
Any new runway at LHR will be complicated to build, 2 of the proposals intrude on the M25 (which is 10 or 12 lanes wide at this point?), so moving this or putting it in tunnel would be a major task

Not negligible, I agree, but on the scale of things, just another part of the job.

I reiterate what I said earlier when looking at the Hong Kong experience, the HK government was not put off by the costs of building the new HKG. OK, they had no motorway to move, because they first created an entirely new island, then the infrastructure from the city to the new airport - it's all just so impressive and on a massive scale, and it was completed in double quick time

Moving the M25 a bit, or tunneling part of it, is peanuts in comparison to the HKG project. No idea how much it cost, I suppose that was in the end not the tightest constraint!

I wish the UK government could learn from its former HK colonial government!

While a massive technical challenge, building a new airport and road connections on mainly virgin or empty land, is a lot easier than expanding a full to capacity airport, and rebuilding a 12 lane motorway (the busiest in Europe?) while keeping it all open is far far harder.
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anstar
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Thread starter):

The earliest any option could be ready would be 2025.

2025!!

They need a new runway NOW... not in 12 years time.
 
oc2dc
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:16 pm

A 3rd runway is just a band-aid on a massive open wound. The only way to make Heathrow better able to compete with the world is to have 4 runways. Although, with the cost of 2 additional runways upwards of 30 billion, wouldn't it be better to start fresh with a new airport?

Perhaps if BA didn't spend billions on T5 so recently then there would be more of a reason to start fresh elsewhere.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
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sassiciai
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 34):
While a massive technical challenge, building a new airport and road connections on mainly virgin or empty land, is a lot easier than expanding a full to capacity airport, and rebuilding a 12 lane motorway (the busiest in Europe?) while keeping it all open is far far harder.

I agree that any of the ways forward will be packed full of challenges!

The real decision that is needed is at a very high level with a long-term view, not merely a quickie "Yes" to a third runway at LHR (a relative quickie, if I may add, as it seems 10 years is the shortest option)

The act of implementing such a long-term view will be the difficult bit, and may include major amendments to existing infrastructure. If the view is well-founded and the goal is well-defined, the implementation should go ahead, despite the costly impact on existing infrastructure and the inevitable impact that it will have.

On the M25 specific issue: I spent some years living in The Netherlands, where I admire their ability to maintain (and expand) a large motorway network. Especially in the South West, where the ground is quite unstable, it is quite normal that while you drive on today's motorway, tomorrow's is being built on your left. Then there is a quite painless switchover from one moment to the next. So let the Dutch engineers join in the LON-project, by all means!
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 33):

I really think that it does.Compare Google Earth to the proposed runway and it comes right next to Saxon Lake, just before the Junction of the M4 M25 runoff towards T5.
Guess BA could sell it off and build a new HQ in the proposed SW site, and then 20 years later sell it off again.  
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VFRonTop
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 32):
Actually, even if we all blink at the money numbers (of £18B or so), in light of the annual UK government budget of almost £200B (which is what - 50% GDP?), £18B spread over a multi-year period is actually peanuts.

I'm sure the up-side of spending that £18B would be returned PDQ! With interest off into the future!

You and I both know that here in the UK solid figures and sound economics have very little to do with the popularity of a project.

Right now the people of the UK are feeling a tight squeeze, they do not want to see their government spending £14bn-£60bn on an airport, whether its on LHR or Boris Island. Until the average person is better off and can start thinking of those two weeks holidays in Spain again there will be no movement on this.
 
vv701
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 1):
But this would need to be a planning condition for a long duration (99 years or so) to be meaningful, otherwise the current situation would repeat itself.

I think that 99 years is a bit on the long side. After all 99 years ago no one had flown on a commercial flight anywhere in the world. And today technology is developing at an ever increasing pace.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
Surely the terminal capacity would be better added East of the new T2 or West of T5 but still along the central spine?

Wouldn't that make many passenger transfers longer?

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
And I still believe that the best solution for London is a 2nd runway at STN and 2nd runway at LGW, giving three high capacity airports arranged evenly around the city.

STN is operating at around half its capacity. It does not need a second runway unless there is some factor that it is preventing airlines from filling it today that I have overlooked.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 4):
I am however astonished as to why it would take 10 years at least to build runways!!!

The time scale covers a lot more than just building a new airport. What we are talking about here is a submission by Heathrow Airport Ltd to the Davies Commission. Sir Howard Davies has been directed to produce an interim report by yhe end of this year and a final report by the summer of 2015. This report will be published after the next General Election.

There will then be a public discussion and the new government t will subsequently make up its mind on the Davies Commission recommendation. There will then probably be a Public Inquiry.

The chances of anything being produced other than a lot of paper and an even larger amount of hot air before 2017 or '18 is pretty remote.

The older amongst us will recall this procedure around the Roskill Commission:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cublington

As its report coincided with my purchase of my current home 12 miles due south of the proposed Cublington Airport I do remember in some detail what was suggested. But with the recommendation of the Roskill Commission overturned by government do not necessarily expect the recommendation of the Davies Commission to ever be implemented. Politicians, whatever their colour, have a habit of avoiding awkward decisions that might upset voters.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 5):
10% of the UK population (so ~10% of the UK votes) live within 15 miles of LHR and they almost all have a view on LHR expansion - often negative).

Before I moved in 1971 I lived very close to LHR. My next door neighbour worked for PA and later UA. A BA employee lived opposite me. In those days there were not nearly as many flights but each flight was very much noisier. The worst noise was from piston engine aircraft like the Skyways Avro York freighters that really clawed their way off the runway and made everything in the house vibrate as they strived to gain altitude. The worst noise was a very low AC DC-8 on finals. It suddenly realised how low it was as it overflew my home and quickly tried to regain some height by applying more power. Agggh!

The point of this story? My neighbourhood was economically dependent on LHR and few if any would have wanted to see it closed down. I, however, comuted into London. But I chose a house near LHR because I could afford it.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
I back STN expansion all the way.

See comment above. With 20 per cent spare capacity at LGW and 50 per cent spare capacity at STN plus significant spare capacity at LTN if passengers and airlines did not mind which LON airport they used there would be no urgent need to decide what to do about a future London hub airport.
 
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Web500sjc
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:59 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 40):
See comment above. With 20 per cent spare capacity at LGW and 50 per cent spare capacity at STN plus significant spare capacity at LTN if passengers and airlines did not mind which LON airport they used there would be no urgent need to decide what to do about a future London hub airport.

The problem isn't the lack of spare capacity in London, it is the lack of sufficient capacity at one airport. As it is the airlines and passengers have spoken that they prefer Heathrow.

For the airlines to change airports it would have to be a increase in capacity at one Airport such that one airport can handle the traffic and mandated movement to the airport, like in the case of HND-NRT, HKG, LGA-JFK EWR, LUV-DFW, MUC, and what will happen in Berlin.
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irishpower
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 13):

Their strict environmental laws................ Said no one ever!
 
hotplane
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:40 pm

Why can't we have a long haul only Heathrow and a short haul only Gatwick connected by a high-speed underground rail link? Thousands of homes saved and much less traffic on the poxy M25.
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ytz
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
That's not the question that we're answering though is it? We're trying to arrange a working national hub airport, additional capacity serving London is not the same thing.

Is there a reason, that can't be accomplished by displacing more London O/D traffic to LGW, STN, LTN and LCY?

Serious question.

[Edited 2013-07-17 11:51:22]
 
bennett123
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:00 pm

Well LCY is not really built for LH.

Yes, I know about the BA A318's.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 40):
See comment above. With 20 per cent spare capacity at LGW and 50 per cent spare capacity at STN plus significant spare capacity at LTN if passengers and airlines did not mind which LON airport they used there would be no urgent need to decide what to do about a future London hub airport.

I don't agree. The planning and building will take years probably, as will legal challenges, so now is precisely the right time to be making decisions. You don't wait until you reach 100% everywhere before then planning what the hell to do. The economic damage would be appalling.
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skipness1E
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:26 pm

I am astonished, actually astonished at people suggesting a long haul only LHR. Do so few of us understand how the business works? A long haul only LHR with little feed to long haul puts much of existing long haul into untenable. Try running a niche route with no feed. BA would go bust, for real, as a massive competitive advantage would be handed to KLM to feed from the regions and LONDON now. Lufthansa and Air France would cry with joy. I mean at least try and keep up......
 
skipness1E
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 44):
Is there a reason, that can't be accomplished by displacing more London O/D traffic to LGW, STN, LTN and LCY?

Excatly how are you going to do this? O&D is part and parcel of making a hub profitable, it's not practical.

Quoting hotplane (Reply 43):
Why can't we have a long haul only Heathrow and a short haul only Gatwick connected by a high-speed underground rail link?

Can you put a price onto extending the Victoria Line to Gatters? Or a whole new railway? A realistic price please.

Quoting OC2DC (Reply 36):
Although, with the cost of 2 additional runways upwards of 30 billion, wouldn't it be better to start fresh with a new airport?

Where's this $30 billion figure from?
 
hotplane
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RE: Heathrow Makes 3rd Runway Proposal

Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 47):
I mean at least try and keep up......

Just a suggestion.

I won't say another word.
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