RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Colombian Aviation #14

Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:39 pm

Hello everyone! Here's to a new discussion on all things colombian aviation, hot topics in the agenda are:

Months after the bilateral with the Netherlands was revised, AFKL have publicly announced that they could bring KLM to increase capacity in the BOG market, but that operating the 777 has it's challenges due to BOG's altitude, and they are evaluating them (they also want to operate the 777 on the CDG route):

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/klm-busca-pista-colombia

The domestic market continues growing and Viva keep increasing their marketshare, while LAN and Avianca also see steep rises in their pax numbers, exponential growth in MDE and CTG due to Viva's and Avianca's expansion and fare wars, while CM continue their retreat:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...s-occur-in-the-market-place-118596

LAN is upping frequency on some domestic routes and launching MDE-ADZ and CLO-ADZ:

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/lan-aumenta-frecuencias-colombia

Avianca has launched CUN and SJU service this week from BOG, and has been upping domestic frequencies throughout the year. The new ATR-72 is already in BOG.

Interjet has entered the BOG-MEX market as a new player, yet their discounts are nothing impressive. The Colombia-Mexico market has kept booming since the lift on visas.

AA is launching DFW-BOG by year's end.

Given that thread 13 only got 86 replies and was locked, let's start fresh out here with more enthusiasm!
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:46 pm

Seems that the interest in the Colombian aviation has completely vanished, very sad. I enjoy participating in these threads too. As per the thread started the Colombian market is still growing with local airlines expanding and a select few downgrading their presence.

I must say that the new AV colors are growing on me even though I haven't seen it in real life yet. The Avianca Cargo A330 looks amazing I must say:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Santiago Escobar - Colombia AeroImages




I'm looking forward in seeing the new AV livery in CUR soon!!! And, come on guys, let's keeps these threads alive!!! 

A388
 
wingedtaurus
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:25 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:26 pm

How many flights BOG-MEX 6? 1AM, 3AV, 1CM and 1 4O? I
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting wingedtaurus (Reply 2):
How many flights BOG-MEX 6? 1AM, 3AV, 1CM and 1 4O? I

Seven.

3 AV.
2 AM. (it's actually 11x weekly during low season).
1 CM*.
1 4O.

BOG-MEX is the busiest route linking Mexico and South America.

Quoting A388 (Reply 1):
I must say that the new AV colors are growing on me even though I haven't seen it in real life yet. The Avianca Cargo A330 looks amazing I must say:

Saw them in person the other day. They're VERY bland, but not distasteful.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:25 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):

AA is launching DFW-BOG by year's end.

AA DFW-BOG 7x weekly with 319 is due to start on November 21st.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
Months after the bilateral with the Netherlands was revised, AFKL have publicly announced that they could bring KLM to increase capacity in the BOG market, but that operating the 777 has it's challenges due to BOG's altitude, and they are evaluating them (they also want to operate the 777 on the CDG route):

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/kl...ombia

AF-KL have expanded in many markets in Latin America. The case of Panama is particularly interesting, which has grown to a daily operation, some in high capacity 77Ws, and Air France starting operations from CDG in November.
Just as it happened with LIM. Conversely, KL now flies to EZE and GIG, formerly only served by AF.
Ecuador has also seen changes from a shared service via BON, to a dedicated operation that has also seen frequency improvements and larger capacity.

I have no doubt that there will be changes in the Colombian operation.
One interesting possibility mentioned by the group's representatives is the use of a new Colombian destination to bypass BOG's altitude challenges. Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali -also a significant destination for Colombians living in Europe- or Touristic Cartagena.
Medellin would not offer much of an advantage vs BOG regarding altitude.

Some additional news on routes:
AV CLO-MDE goes from 3 to 4 weekly in the low season. It stays daily in the peak seasons.
LIM-CLO and LIM-MDE will increase frequencies as of 15th November. 4 to 6 weekly, and 3 to daily respectively.
SAL-MDE has increased to daily after the suspension of the SJO-PTY-MDE. SAL-CLO has increased to 5 weekly and it looks set to go daily in September.
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
I have no doubt that there will be changes in the Colombian operation.
One interesting possibility mentioned by the group's representatives is the use of a new Colombian destination to bypass BOG's altitude challenges. Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali -also a significant destination for Colombians living in Europe- or Touristic Cartagena.
Medellin would not offer much of an advantage vs BOG regarding altitude.

While I also find this interesting, I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG. BOG clearly is the city in Colombia that attracts the European airlines, so that is where KL should go. Their only problem is that they have twin engined widebody aircraft that may be less optimal for high altitude airports but if they really see a market there, why not do it even with taking penalties into account? KL can even combine BOG with CUR and refuel in CUR so they can take-off at full payload from BOG. That might be a solution for them. Again they need to do an indepth analysis on what options are available to them but knowing KL they will know what to do.

A388
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
AV CLO-MDE goes from 3 to 4 weekly in the low season. It stays daily in the peak seasons.

You mean CLO-MDE-JFK I guess.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
LIM-CLO and LIM-MDE will increase frequencies as of 15th November. 4 to 6 weekly, and 3 to daily respectively.

Good to see the directs to Lima are doing well.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 5):
One interesting possibility mentioned by the group's representatives is the use of a new Colombian destination to bypass BOG's altitude challenges. Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali

I would also guess that in case KL wanted to fly to another colombian destination it would be CLO. First of all, the Cali-Europe market is probably the second largest in Colombia-Europe, after that I would venture to guess it would be Pereira (very high VFR numbers mainly from Spain) and Cartagena (tourism). Medellín would come after, but as you said it doesn't really offer much advantages as compared to BOG in altitude, and the market size would pode a challenge for KL. The CTG market I would guess is still developing and we'll first see the charter airlines come en masse and maybe then more scheduled carriers, just as it happened in CUN and PUJ.

I would still think that the primary target would be BOG. After all they are still evaluating the 777's operation, which means it's not entirely ruled out.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
You mean CLO-MDE-JFK I guess.

You are correct. CLO-MDE-JfK is increasing to 4 weekly frequencies in the low season. MDE-CLO has up to 8 daily frequencies.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
Good to see the directs to Lima are doing well.

Indeed, with LIM being a great connecting point for points beyond.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
I would also guess that in case KL wanted to fly to another colombian destination it would be CLO. First of all, the Cali-Europe market is probably the second largest in Colombia-Europe

CLO is certainly a good candidate. Only minus point would be lack of flower production. This would be an important factor for a flight to AMS.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
after that I would venture to guess it would be Pereira (very high VFR numbers mainly from Spain

Sure. But we know it is not technically possible, so it won't happen. If it were possible, Avianca would already be doing PEI-MAD.

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
heir only problem is that they have twin engined widebody aircraft that may be less optimal for high altitude airports but if they really see a market there, why not do it even with taking penalties into account?

I am sure they are looking at the viability. Only problem is that if it means no cargo can be taken non-stop, then it may not be worth doing the flight. The CUR stop that you suggest is a possibility. It could also be a triangular with another colombian city: CLO or CTG.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
Medellín would come after, but as you said it doesn't really offer much advantages as compared to BOG in altitude, and the market size would pode a challenge for KL.

At 2150m above sea level, only 400m less elevated than BOG, it would indeed seem unlikely that it would make enough of a difference. On the plus side, it does have a local flower industry that would be a source of cargo.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
I would still think that the primary target would be BOG. After all they are still evaluating the 777's operation, which means it's not entirely ruled out.

The 772 operation was announced as a given a few months ago. The strange thing is that it has not happened.

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG.

KLM manages to serve both GYE and UIO in Ecuador. This was a necessity given that old UIO did not allow to operate a heavy widebody out, and so the GYE stop had to happen.
However, now that UIO permits transatlantic flights without an intermediate stop, do you think that they will forsake GYE?
I think not. In fact, I believe that the 2 cities will get dedicated service at some point.

Colombia is multi polar and so an advantage of an airline like KLM serving a city other than BOG -already served by its sister- would be to get in there before others do.
I have no doubt that Iberia will seek to serve more cities in Colombia once it gets its restructuring sorted.
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
heir only problem is that they have twin engined widebody aircraft that may be less optimal for high altitude airports but if they really see a market there, why not do it even with taking penalties into account?

I am sure they are looking at the viability. Only problem is that if it means no cargo can be taken non-stop, then it may not be worth doing the flight. The CUR stop that you suggest is a possibility. It could also be a triangular with another colombian city: CLO or CTG.

I totally agree with you. Cargo will definately be a factor and in that case BOG is the go-to destination.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG.

KLM manages to serve both GYE and UIO in Ecuador. This was a necessity given that old UIO did not allow to operate a heavy widebody out, and so the GYE stop had to happen.
However, now that UIO permits transatlantic flights without an intermediate stop, do you think that they will forsake GYE?

It still isn't clear to me whether the new UIO airport will indeed result in aircraft being able to take off at full payload because I understood that a longer runway doesn't equal the necessary payload increase as the high altitude also limits the wheel speed and the breaking energy limit itself from the runway at a higher altitude. You can't go faster than the wheel speed limit even if there is a longer runway. So it is a matter of calculating what can be done at UIO and GYE (also in one engine-out situations) and whether it is wise to operate them seperately. I heard GYE is mainly used for cargo purposes (shrimps) so these two destinations might even need each other to exist.

A388
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 9):
It still isn't clear to me whether the new UIO airport will indeed result in aircraft being able to take off at full payload

Looking at the new UIO runway specification, it is certainly long, but it is also at a lower elevation than BOG.

I expect that A340s will have no problems operating out of UIO on non-stops to Europe. LH at BOG has said that a longer runway would make a positive difference. I believe that this is more to do with tail wind and rain conditions and enough stopping distance should an aborted take off take place.
Not idea how 777s would do at UIO, though. Perhaps the situation will still be challenging.
KL is going daily on AMS-UIO-GYE-AMS for the next season. Interestingly, 3 different flight codes are used, even though the times are the same. Might KL have plans to re-organise these flights? Either dedicated service to each city or a different arrangement? We'll have to wait and see.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
At 2150m above sea level, only 400m less elevated than BOG, it would indeed seem unlikely that it would make enough of a difference. On the plus side, it does have a local flower industry that would be a source of cargo.

Yea. But then BOG has a much larger flower industry, so why not just fly to BOG where you know the passenger market is large enough to accommodate you, whilst MDE would be a much larger risk.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
The 772 operation was announced as a given a few months ago. The strange thing is that it has not happened.

It was said that they were going to bring a aircraft "with 25 more seats", which would be the three class 772, but nothing is certain.

Certainly cities like Cali, Medellín, Cartagena and Barranquilla have the potential to sustain more flights to Europe, but I personally think that outside the iberian peninsula it will be hard to see something (except for CTG). I mean, ther'es plenty of cities in Brazil and Mexico with limited links to Europe and much larger markets that aren't served by AFKL or even IB. (CNF, POA, BSB, REC, MTY, GDL)
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:19 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 11):
Yea. But then BOG has a much larger flower industry, so why not just fly to BOG where you know the passenger market is large enough to accommodate you, whilst MDE would be a much larger risk

Look, I never suggested that KL would fly to MDE!
Indeed, I mentioned other cities that might be considered, as it was confirmed by the AF-KLM general manager in Colombia than flying to other cities in the country is one of the options!
I simply pointed out one factor that MDE would have vs CLO! (Not BOG, note!).
I am sure that MDE produces enough flowers to put on the belly of a passenger jet. Indeed, it produces enough to fill cargo only planes day after day. I happen to think that IB would be more suitable for that route, as well as others in the country at a later stage.


ROUTE NEWS:
AA is making its MIA-MDE double daily permanently as from 19th December.
The route is currently operating twice daily for the peak summer season only.
 
Avianca
Posts: 5274
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:26 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Thread starter):
LAN is upping frequency on some domestic routes and launching MDE-ADZ and CLO-ADZ:


it is more than time that LAN adds new route. hope to see soon new international destinations.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:09 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 6):
I don't see how KL can make more money on any destination in Colombia outside of BOG.

I'm not totally convinced if any KL AMS-BOG might work fully loaded, regarding the current operation given by AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly with 343.
As far as I know, the 343 is suitable to operate into the "extreme altitude" at BOG. However, KL doesn't manage the proper plane, in order to exploit the longer route named AMS-BOG.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 14):
I'm not totally convinced if any KL AMS-BOG might work fully loaded, regarding the current operation given by AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly with 343.
As far as I know, the 343 is suitable to operate into the "extreme altitude" at BOG. However, KL doesn't manage the proper plane, in order to exploit the longer route named AMS-BOG.

Regards.

Yes, in this case KL doesn't have an aircraft with the correct performance but maybe they want to operate the route while stopping elsewhere to refuel (such as CUR). Otherwise they will have to take a hit (penalize) on the route. Even so as I said, KL knows what's best for them to do so I have no doubt in them. If the route doesn't perform as expected they will stop it.

A388
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 12):
Look, I never suggested that KL would fly to MDE!
Indeed, I mentioned other cities that might be considered, as it was confirmed by the AF-KLM general manager in Colombia than flying to other cities in the country is one of the options!
I simply pointed out one factor that MDE would have vs CLO! (Not BOG, note!).

I'm simply having a discussion, no need to loose one's temper here. As you point out advantages of MDE, I point out why the possibility of operating to another city that isn't BOG is bleak for KL, and if it were to happen, CLO would probably get chosen due to a considerably larger passenger market size and less altitude issues than MDE.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 14):
I'm not totally convinced if any KL AMS-BOG might work fully loaded, regarding the current operation given by AF CDG-BOG 7x weekly with 343.
As far as I know, the 343 is suitable to operate into the "extreme altitude" at BOG. However, KL doesn't manage the proper plane, in order to exploit the longer route named AMS-BOG.

They're still evaluating how the 777 will perform, and before AF starts sending theirs to BOG, not one will have concrete data. Yes, the 777 faces challenges at high altitude airports, that is all we know. But it really isn't time to jump into conclusions.

Quoting A388 (Reply 15):
Yes, in this case KL doesn't have an aircraft with the correct performance but maybe they want to operate the route while stopping elsewhere to refuel (such as CUR).

IMO, that would render the route uncompetitive given the various other non-stop options.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 12):
AA is making its MIA-MDE double daily permanently as from 19th December.
The route is currently operating twice daily for the peak summer season only.

The effects of competition and lower fares thanks to open skies. Now let's wait for the launch of BAQ and CTG.

AA's operation in Colombia will be as follows for the winter 2014 season:

BOG-MIA 1x 763 2x 757
MDE-MIA 2x 738
CLO-MIA 1x 738
BOG-DFW 1x 319

[Edited 2013-07-30 08:38:01]
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 16):
Quoting A388 (Reply 15):
Yes, in this case KL doesn't have an aircraft with the correct performance but maybe they want to operate the route while stopping elsewhere to refuel (such as CUR).

IMO, that would render the route uncompetitive given the various other non-stop options.

I know and I can agree with you but KL does the same on their UIO/GYE route and it seems to work. If CUR can be combined with BOG it gives KL the best possibility because they already serve CUR and the distance between BOG and CUR is do-able. It doesn't make the flight that much more uncomfortable. It will be something similar to their UIO operation that is combined with GYE which is also a city that is relatively close by and it works and still they compete with IB and LAN to Europe.

A388
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:51 pm

KLM can even use a 747-400 Full Pax or Combi for a AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS routing. This will probably solve their twin engine restriction and give them more cargo space to AMS too. Combine it with CUR on one of the legs and you will have a decently packed aircraft!!!

A388
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 16):
I point out why the possibility of operating to another city that isn't BOG is bleak for KL, and if it were to happen, CLO would probably get chosen due to a considerably larger passenger market size and less altitude issues than MDE.

There is no argument. I was the first one to suggest CLO as an alternative to BOG, pointing out that MDE has similar altitude to BOG.
In my original post, I said: Although it is only one of the options, it would be very interesting to see KLM serve industrial Cali -also a significant destination for Colombians living in Europe- or Touristic Cartagena.
Medellin would not offer much of an advantage vs BOG regarding altitude.


Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
KLM can even use a 747-400 Full Pax or Combi for a AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS routing. This will probably solve their twin engine restriction and give them more cargo space to AMS too

The interesting thing is that on a longer route such as is AMS-MEX, KL operates a 744 Combi non-stop. MEX is also a high airport -standing ar 2421m, only 127m less than BOG.
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 19):
The interesting thing is that on a longer route such as is AMS-MEX, KL operates a 744 Combi non-stop. MEX is also a high airport -standing ar 2421m, only 127m less than BOG.

Good observation yes but I think a 744 can also work for a BOG routing. I mean, why wouldn't it? If a A340-300 can do it, I'm sure a 747-400 (Pax and Combi) will as well. KL's 747-400 full pax has too much seats (425 pax) but a Combi may actually work, especially seeing the cargo potential from BOG (flowers etc).

A388
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 17):
I know and I can agree with you but KL does the same on their UIO/GYE route and it seems to work.
Quoting A388 (Reply 17):
It will be something similar to their UIO operation that is combined with GYE which is also a city that is relatively close by and it works and still they compete with IB and LAN to Europe.

The Ecuador-Europe market is different:

1. Most of the market is O/D form Ecuador to Spain
2. The rest of the it, which we can say is taken care of by KL, doesn't really have any other reasonible connecting options to Asia/Africa other than that flight
3. Every Ecuador-Europe flight operates in a XXX-UIO-GYE-XXX routing, thus not having any non-stop options from UIO makes it a different situation to BOG, where they don't have to compete with all of the other airlines who fly non-stop to Europe.
4. As the market evolved, KL removed the CUR and BON stops on their LIM and Ecuador flights, to make them more competitive against the increasing not-stop operations from other competitors. Why would they launch BOG with this pattern if it stopped working in the past?
5. An AMS-BOG-CUR-AMS routing would still require people to add a couple of hours to their travel time and have to go through the whole landing and takeoff process one more time. It is uncomfortable and inefficiant and thus would probably capture low-yielding pax and connections to Asia (which would be one of the main markets for this flight) would still prefer taking AF and LH.

Let's see what AF-KL come up with regarding the 777 into BOG, because I really think a stop in the Dutch Antilles is not the way to go.

Then again, everything can be seen.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 19):
There is no argument.

Allright then so all the more reason not to loose our tempers!
 
LH506
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:11 pm

any chances of LH changing to 744 or 748? Or maybe even adding a 3-4 weekly to MUC?
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 16):
the possibility of operating to another city that isn't BOG is bleak for KL, and if it were to happen, CLO would probably get chosen due to a considerably larger passenger market size and less altitude issues than MDE.

In my perspective from abroad, both CLO and MDE might only operate non-stop services to Madrid, based on their commercial and cultural ties.
AV is already doing this task and their services heading to Europe don't operate on a daily basis yet. I don't visualize space to other European carrier for the time being.




.

Quoting A388 (Reply 18):
KLM can even use a 747-400 Full Pax or Combi for a AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS routing

Any KL AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS probably would never happen as pointing out above. This flight is not competitive analyzing the dedicated current non-stops to Europe out of Bogota: IB BOG-MAD, AV BOG-MAD, LH FRA-BOG and AF BOG-CDG.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:34 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
Any KL AMS-CUR-BOG-AMS probably would never happen as pointing out above. This flight is not competitive analyzing the dedicated current non-stops to Europe out of Bogota: IB BOG-MAD, AV BOG-MAD, LH FRA-BOG and AF BOG-CDG.

Plus AV's BOG-BCN.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
In my perspective from abroad, both CLO and MDE might only operate non-stop services to Madrid, based on their commercial and cultural ties.
AV is already doing this task and their services heading to Europe don't operate on a daily basis yet. I don't visualize space to other European carrier for the time being.

I agree.

On other news, AV's brand new ATR 72-600 is already flying and is doing runs to EJA, AXM, PPN and NVA. As deliveries continue, it will be gradually introduced to other regional destinations. Ops to MZL will have minimal restrictions as per what has been said in other forums.

And LAN is apparently launching PEI-CLO flights in order to feed AA in CLO as said by Hernán Pasman. This has to be one of the most terrible commercial decisions they've made in a long time (they have taken the right track for a while). Cali is 3 hours away by car from Pereira, meaning the only demand this flight will have is low-yielding connecting pax from MIA. (being in PEI 45 minutes before, 30 minute flight time, arriving in CLO, taking your bags, 30 minute drive to the city equals 2.15-2.30 hours travel time, at probably much higher cost).

[Edited 2013-07-30 17:44:23]
 
A388
Posts: 7191
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:57 am

You guys have some good points. Let's wait what will happen.

A388
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:45 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
In my perspective from abroad, both CLO and MDE might only operate non-stop services to Madrid, based on their commercial and cultural ties.
AV is already doing this task and their services heading to Europe don't operate on a daily basis yet. I don't visualize space to other European carrier for the time being.

What you have to consider is that the traffic that AV handles to CLO and MDE is essentially is O&D. It can only keep the number of frequencies between MAD and BOG thanks to connections, both domestic and international.
CLO offers onward connections to GYE and that is it! MDE even less so. And on the other side, AV It can offer no competitive connections at MAD.
So the fact that AV can sustain a 5 weekly flight between CLO and MAD means that there is room for IB too, that can offer a whole array of competitive connections at MAD that would boost the traffic. Indeed AV knows this and had its way in preventing spanish airlines from operating into CLO until a year or so ago. IB is of course in no good shape to start new ventures now, but this is something that will happen at some point. Same for MDE and CTG.

If KLM decides to jump ahead, we shall have to see, though I agree that perhaps it is a little bit early at this stage.
However, we will see Colombia as a multi-polar country will see increasingly multi polar development. In air traffic AV and others in connivance with the central aviation authority made sure to keep the offer strangled, with particular restrictions on colombian cities outside BOG. That has been changing with more liberal policies and we are starting to see a response, albeit slow (as it would be after development was depressed). Good signs are B6 in CTG . As is the increasing of frequencies by AA in MDE, as well as more point to point routes, domestic and international.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 26):
So the fact that AV can sustain a 5 weekly flight between CLO and MAD means that there is room for IB too, that can offer a whole array of competitive connections at MAD that would boost the traffic.

Wait. You said before that the existence of AV CLO-MAD 2x weekly and AV MDE-MAD 5x weekly is purely justified on the O&D traffic and I fully agreed with this assertion. So, why would IB penetrate into some secondary markets in Colombia and based on any dormant market that would be supposedly raised by healthy connections through MAD?
Keep in mind how IB didn’t have a good experience when they flew to secondary markets in South America.
Cordoba, Argentina is the most representative item: IB MAD-COR was active less than two years and it was never launched more than thrice a week. Sometimes, it was routed as IB MAD-MVD-COR and IB MAD-GIG-COR.
The shortage of planes was the solid argument stated by the airline and this situation hasn’t changed too much, in order to post that Medellin is desperately needing more dedicated non-stop flights heading to Madrid on IB.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 26):
What you have to consider is that the traffic that AV handles to CLO and MDE is essentially is O&D.

Wait a second. MDE and CLO have substantial feed. MDE gets connections from the caribbean cities, and CLO gets feed from GYE (which is large, i've read around 40 pax per flight), plus a lot of people from BOG actually take those flights with because they tend to be cheaper on the high season. It's hardly "essentially" O/D.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 26):
It can only keep the number of frequencies between MAD and BOG thanks to connections, both domestic and international.

Yes and no. When IB was at it's peak, BOG handled 12 weekly A340-600 flights which went out full. While IB codeshared on one of the frequencies with AV (not both) and had an interline agreement, they did not codeshare on AV's domestic sectors and the fares were usually expensive if you continued from BOG. IB's flights relied mostly on BOG O/D passengers to MAD and onward connections to Spain and Europe, with some domestic colombian connections of course. So although AV's flights do carry a lot of connecting passengers, it's not only because of that they can maintain their 2 daily frequencies. In fact, the market to Madrid is underserved with year-round load factors of around 90% for both operators.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 26):
So the fact that AV can sustain a 5 weekly flight between CLO and MAD means that there is room for IB too, that can offer a whole array of competitive connections at MAD that would boost the traffic

That is another thing. I have no doubt IB could do well in CLO specially when they get their finances together and with the new A330-300s.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 26):
Same for MDE and CTG.

Now there I wouldn't know. CTG is still a developing market and although there certainly is a market to Spain to exploit, would the yields and seasonality of it justify a scheduled IB flight? It looks more like a market for Pullmantur or at the most Air Europa.

MDE, well I just don't think the market is large enough for IB to exploit. If it were larger, we would be seeing a 3x weekly MDE-MAD 4x weekly CLO-MAD rotation on AV or more frequencies from Medellín, but that has not happened.

CLO started as 2x weekly 767-200 and now it's 5x weekly A330-200, it was daily but due to aircraft rotation efficiency it was left as is. MDE hasn't evolved the same way. There is just a lot more O/D from Cali due to the mass migration to Europe and specially Spain in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s. The migration from Medellín went to the US.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 27):
Wait. You said before that the existence of AV CLO-MAD 2x weekly and AV MDE-MAD 5x weekly is purely justified on the O&D traffic and I fully agreed with this assertion.

It's the other way around.

[Edited 2013-07-31 18:42:34]
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:48 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
Wait a second. MDE and CLO have substantial feed

Not when you compare it to BOG. The difference is huge!

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
MDE gets connections from the caribbean cities,

It doesn't work both ways. MAD flight gets to MDE at 8.15 pm, when the there are *no* more flights to CTG, BAQ and least of all SMR.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
and CLO gets feed from GYE (which is large, i've read around 40 pax per flight)

But this is less than the UIO connections from BOG, which has infinitely more connections to many other places both domestic (PEI is larger than even Ecuador, but there will be connection to every colombian city that AV serves), and other international destinations. LIM, CCS and there will be passengers for other Av destinations, including SDQ, PUJ, and now SJU too. The new flights are not on a connection bank for nothing!

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
Yes and no. When IB was at it's peak, BOG handled 12 weekly A340-600 flights which went out full. While IB codeshared on one of the frequencies with AV (not both) and had an interline agreement,

There codeshare on the MAD-BOG flight was very short lived. The only code shares that still exist are for domestic destinations on both countries.
More or less all airlines have interline, but this is not *competitive*. Connections are certainly possible, but they are 2 fares added together. IB, or AF, LH (and of course AV on the BOG side only!) can offer integral, competitive fares.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
B's flights relied mostly on BOG O/D passengers to MAD and onward connections to Spain and Europe, with some domestic colombian connections of course.

You really are undermining the domestic connections. They are much larger than you imagine. I know because I have been told by IB staff in BOG. When I travelled on a delayed IB into BOG, their staff have to find accommodation for 280 of the 345 pax. Presumably the ones connecting.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
So although AV's flights do carry a lot of connecting passengers, it's not only because of that they can maintain their 2 daily frequencies.

Ahhhh. OK. If that is what you think, then continue with the illusion.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
In fact, the market to Madrid is underserved with year-round load factors of around 90% for both operators.
AV does much better on load factors year round, but IB does not do so well out of the peak season. It was like 75% last May, and that was after it reduced frequencies to just one daily.
AV has really done well, when connections were improved thought the second flight. Some new connections too, apart from improving existing ones.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
MDE, well I just don't think the market is large enough for IB to exploit. If it were larger, we would be seeing a 3x weekly MDE-MAD 4x weekly CLO-MAD rotation on AV or more frequencies from Medellín, but that has not happened.

As I said and now repeat. The competitive IB connections at MAD would make all the difference.
AV is essentially just O&D, but you would be surprised at the number of passengers that connections do add.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 28):
MDE hasn't evolved the same way.

Indeed the O&D market MDE-Spain is not as large as other cities. Even PEI!
However, MDE-MAD O&D is still larger than BOG-BCN, and yet BCN doubles in frequencies and will surely gain some more. Again, the effect of connections.

On top of that, IB on an A340 could carry lots of cargo, that AV can't on its A330s due to altitude sues forever discussed.

I also said that IB is in no position to implement such new services now, but it is through diversification of service that IB that will have to compete if it wasn't to continue leading in its core market.
Although KLM might also pounce.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 27):
Cordoba, Argentina is the most representative item: IB MAD-COR was active less than two years and it was never launched more than thrice a week.

Colombia is different to Argentina in that it has several development poles. Argentina, like Chile and Peru are more capital centric. Colombia has more potential at these poles: secondary cities, than the equivalent in the likes of Argentina.

But in any case, IB has a cost structure base problem too. They need to sort that out before they can embark on diversification of the market, that they need if they are to remain leaders.


Additional note on the subject of IB:
It will operate MAD-UIO-MAD non-stop flights as of 26th October on a 3 weekly basis using A346s.
The other 4 days will continue to be MAD-UIO-GYE-MAD.

I am sure that as some point the market will be separated altogether.

[Edited 2013-08-01 00:56:01]
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:07 pm

LAN Colombia and AA will begin codesharing as of 1st of August. Out to the USA LAN Colombia codeshares will include MIA, TPA, ATL, BOS, JFK, LAX and SFO and for AA they will code share into BAQ, BMG, PEI and CTG. This according to an internal communication sent by LAN today.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting Bogota (Reply 30):
This according to an internal communication sent by LAN today.

Here is the PR:
LAN Colombia y American Airlines aumentan su conectividad internacional
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:06 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
Not when you compare it to BOG. The difference is huge!

Of course, but there is feed, and it's a substantial part of the pax going on the flights, and a lot of it is actually coming from BOG. At once, the CLO flights were filled with up to 35% BOG originating passengers. Don't know what the figure is now, but the flights are still actively offered on the website and a lot of people take them.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
It doesn't work both ways. MAD flight gets to MDE at 8.15 pm, when the there are *no* more flights to CTG, BAQ and least of all SMR.

A lot of those connections can be routed CTG-MDE-MAD-BOG-CTG, in fact those flights are on offer, so MDE does get a bit of feed from the coast. The again, is the feed from BOG which is also large.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
You really are undermining the domestic connections. They are much larger than you imagine.

No. I know they are large, in fact I know that for example, the last flight to PEI during the day goes out full of almost exclusively pax connecting from MAD, BCN and MIA.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
When I travelled on a delayed IB into BOG, their staff have to find accommodation for 280 of the 345 pax.

Great anecdote, and I don't disagree that domestic connections are a portion of the pax carried. But for one flight which was mostly connections you can't generalize that most of the pax flying to BOG are connecting to other destinations. It is still a city of almost 9 million people with a middle class proportionally thrice as large as any other city in Colombia with a much larger spending power, and which also had the phenomena of mass migration to Spain, just like the areas of Cali and Pereira did. Not to mention, out of 5 Spanish companies that come to Colombia, 4 have their headquarters in Bogotá.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
Ahhhh. OK. If that is what you think, then continue with the illusion.

No need to be rude.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
AV does much better on load factors year round, but IB does not do so well out of the peak season. It was like 75% last May, and that was after it reduced frequencies to just one daily.

IB is not doing well at most of it's stations as of late because of the ongoing structural problems their operation is suffering: old interiors, rude staff, continuous strikes, more competition and a high cost base. When IB had the upper hand of the BOG-MAD route, their load factors were in the high 80s all year round. And the fact that they're still having 75% load factors in the low season proves my point: if you even out AV's and IB's load factors (let's say 75% and 90%) for the low season, there would still be 82,5% of the seats being filled during the slow months. Talk about underserving a market.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):

On top of that, IB on an A340 could carry lots of cargo, that AV can't on its A330s due to altitude sues forever discussed.

I understand that AV's A330s do carry a small amount of cargo on BOG-MAD flights, they are completely restricted to BCN though. I imagine MDE-MAD can carry a little bit of cargo too.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
Although KLM might also pounce.

And I quote:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
Ahhhh. OK. If that is what you think, then continue with the illusion.

The city of Medellín has long ways to go before a flight outside Madrid is viable yield and load wise. Even Cartagena stands a better chance.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
Colombia is different to Argentina in that it has several development poles.

True.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
Argentina, like Chile and Peru are more capital centric.

True. Of course, this was vigorously refuted a couple of threads ago when I said it. But I'm glad it's finally being discussed, no matter the reason.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 30):
BAQ, BMG, PEI and CTG.

You mean BGA (Bucaramanga)? This is good for LAN and AA. I wonder why the new DFW-BOG flight wasn't included on the deal...
 
planeguy
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:38 pm

Any possibility of Vivacolombia launching flights to the US? Your thoughts.
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 32):
Great anecdote, and I don't disagree that domestic connections are a portion of the pax carried. But for one flight which was mostly connections you can't generalize that most of the pax flying to BOG are connecting to other destinations. It is still a city of almost 9 million people with a middle class proportionally thrice as large as any other city in Colombia with a much larger spending power, and which also had the phenomena of mass migration to Spain, just like the areas of Cali and Pereira did. Not to mention, out of 5 Spanish companies that come to Colombia, 4 have their headquarters in Bogotá.

It was normal during my BA times to have many BOG originating pax to decide to stay in hotel accomodation, many would rather take a hotel room as they would argue that they had no place to stay the night. So it is no indicator of ex-BOG loads.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 32):
You mean BGA (Bucaramanga)?

My bad.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 29):
Colombia is different to Argentina in that it has several development poles. Argentina, like Chile and Peru are more capital centric. Colombia has more potential at these poles: secondary cities, than the equivalent in the likes of Argentina.

Based on this philosophy, both Brazil and Colombia are operating other secondary airports promoting transcontinental flights to Europe unlike Argentina, Peru and Chile, where all these kind of flights solely depart from the capital city.
However, IB [MAD-FOR-REC] 3x weekly also failed in 2011, with less than one year in service.
My conclusion by now is that IB wouldn’t venture into either MDE or CLO soon, being these stations already served with dedicated flights heading to MAD on AV.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 32):
Of course, but there is feed, and it's a substantial part of the pax going on the flights, and a lot of it is actually coming from BOG

Do you think that BOG provides more feed for the CLO-MAD flights and the MDE-MAD flights than CLO and MDE provide to BOG originating flights to MAD?

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 32):
A lot of those connections can be routed CTG-MDE-MAD-BOG-CTG, in fact those flights are on offer, so MDE does get a bit of feed from the coast. The again, is the feed from BOG which is also large.

Same question. Do you really think that BOG provides more feed to MDE than it does to BOG-MAD flights?

Good that you admit that no connection can happen on the beyond MDE to CTG, BAQ and SMR from the MAD-MDE flights.
But the point is that the order of magnitide of connections at CLo and MDE compared to BOG!
And yet you claim that BOG could manage quite well without connections, and could AV could keep its 2 dailies to MAD without them. Right....

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 32):
When IB had the upper hand of the BOG-MAD route, their load factors were in the high 80s all year round. And the fact that they're still having 75% load factors in the low season proves my point:

IB play a lot with the A343 vs A346s. In the low season a lot of the flights to BOG have been A343s. In the peak, mostly A346s. It has clearly suffered as a result of AV's capacity increase and that shows in their reduction of frequencies to BOG.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 32):
The city of Medellín has long ways to go before a flight outside Madrid is viable yield and load wise. Even Cartagena stands a better chance.


For CTG is only a matter of when, not if!
The Eurpean crisis has touched bottom, and it is time to start growing.
If it isn't Air Europa, it will be Iberia (that reported improved fortunes. WIth its new A333s and all its A346s getting refurbed, plus a lower cost base it will soon be on the path to recover capacity lost).

As for MDE and CLO, that maybe a later stage that it can have improved connectivity to Europe.
I know that you are adamant that only BOG can support it, bla, bla, bla, but things are changing.

We agree that Colombia is a naturally multi-polar country. This is, of course, to do with its geography, and despite the terrible policies that have prevented proper development outside of the centre and that has depressed regional development.
However, some good examples of local politics and local organisations actually working for development mean that regional development can take place more naturally.

In other news:
Aena of Spain has bought a 1/3 stake in CLO airport, and with its 2/3s stake, is now in a controlling position
http://www.portafolio.co/economia/ae...a-controla-gestion-aeropuerto-cali
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:56 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 36):
I know that you are adamant that only BOG can support it, bla, bla, bla, but things are changing.

Interesting commentary from somebody that can only give an opinion if it critizices something in Bogota, especially if you can bring in a political opinion that fires up a controversy...like:

Quoting summa767 (Reply 36):
This is, of course, to do with its geography, and despite the terrible policies that have prevented proper development outside of the centre and that has depressed regional development.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting Bogota (Reply 37):
Interesting commentary from somebody that can only give an opinion if it critizices something in Bogota, especially if you can bring in a political opinion that fires up a controversy...like:

I am so sorry to touch your very raw nerves. Well, whether you like it or not, regional development is starting to gather pace in Colombia. More air travel will be a result. Indeed, we have already seen it in MDE and CTG.
It does not detract from BOG's own development, that had its place as a beacon of urbanism.
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:41 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 38):
I am so sorry to touch your very raw nerves.

What a sad answer, as always insulting on your behalf. Says a lot about you.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 38):
Well, whether you like it or not, regional development is starting to gather pace in Colombia. More air travel will be a result. Indeed, we have already seen it in MDE and CTG.
It does not detract from BOG's own development, that had its place as a beacon of urbanism.

Colombia has always, since its beginnings, been a very well developed country in its regions, especially compared to most other countries in Latin America. Airports in Colombia had for many years been way above its pars in the region when comparing the second, third, and forth cities.

We fell behind when the 90´s and 00´s when the country went through the economic and political turmoil, after the mass exodus flights became empty thanks to the imposition of visas around the world for Colombia, this in turn due to the illegal status of most colombian emmigrants who claimed political asylum and becoming a burden in their "new" countries.

Thankfully those of us who stayed managed to turn around our nation and are now investing in our future and I am sure we will have better and better infrastructure as days go by.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:09 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 39):
Thankfully those of us who stayed managed to turn around our nation and are now investing in our future and I am sure we will have better and better infrastructure as days go by.

It's a very simplistic way of putting it, naturally.
Colombia is developing, but despite itself (a book by David Bushnell - I guess you have not even heard of it).

However, the fact that the country is multi-polar has to do with its geography more than anything else. And of course that requires airports for the different regions.
However, even now, places such as CTG and BAQ are paying the price of badly managed policies on airport development.
The central government negotiated a concession for its airport that allows it to charge almost US $100 airport use fee for international flights! Same in BAQ. This is around 3 times what BOG airport charges.
So despite lip service, this differential ensures that these cities do not benefit from international tourism to the level they deserve.
Just one clear example of badly managed regional development. But there are plenty more. MDE had no access to US air carriers until the 90s, and only because of much regional pressure.

For the record, I have not said anything against Bogota, that great example of modern urbanism.
I, however, pointed out that an article that started the debate about KL's return to Colombia mentioned the possibility of a route to a city other than BOG. That was, arrogantly, totally missed out by the poster.
That such a thing could even be contemplated by KL clearly created some uncomfort among some of you.
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
I guess you have not even heard of it).

As usual you guessed wrong.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
However, the fact that the country is multi-polar has to do with its geography more than anything else.

What ever the reason, it is a fact.


Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
The central government negotiated a concession for its airport that allows it to charge almost US $100 airport use fee for international flights!

You can call it the Central Government, but it is the National Government. Composedly mostly by people who are not originally from Bogota, just like the population of this city.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
Just one clear example of badly managed regional development. But there are plenty more. MDE had no access to US air carriers until the 90s, and only because of much regional pressure.

So that would mean that of all places in Colombia, there were no Antioquia representatives in the National Government. Wonder how the Metro got approved.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
That was, arrogantly, totally missed out by the poster.

So that gives you the right to try and flame the thread.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
clearly created some uncomfort among some of you.

Generalizations are usually a sign of ignorance.

[Edited 2013-08-03 13:08:14]
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 41):
What ever the reason, it is a fact.

It's a fact that I stated. Please read properly. See reply 29.

Quoting bogota (Reply 41):
You can call it the Central Government, but it is the National Government. Composedly mostly by people who are not originally from Bogota, just like the population of this city.

And? My criticism is of the bad policies. It is clear that corruption and ill management has been widespread.
Sure, the connivance between those politicians based in the capital and those that provide (that can often be read as "buy") votes in the regions.

Quoting bogota (Reply 41):
So that gives you the right to try and flame the thread.

I happened to start a discussion about KL's stated possibilities for service to Colombia to cities other than BOG. No negative comment about service to the capital other than limitations to altitude -that also apply to MDE. Just go back and check before making up more lies.

On the same subject, I mentioned the terrible policies that have suppressed regional development.
For instance, I doubt that KLM, even if they were tempted to serve CTG -even as a stop to somewhere else, will think it viable due to the huge airport fee that it wold have to impose on tickets.
I am sorry that you feel inflamed, but that is your problem.
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting planeguy (Reply 33):
Any possibility of Vivacolombia launching flights to the US? Your thoughts.

I think there is a big chance for FLL flights in the medium term. But the truth is Viva still has a long road ahead concerning their domestic growth and when they acquire more volume we'll start to see international destinations.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting summa767 (Reply 42):
I doubt that KLM, even if they were tempted to serve CTG -even as a stop to somewhere else

The commercial flights between Cartagena de Indias and Europe are of course oriented to the leisure traffic and I would firstly think on charter services operated by Arkefly instead, if the demand of passengers really exists heading to AMS.
The demise of UX MAD-CTG 3x weekly with 763 in 2011 comes to mind.


Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 44):
The demise of UX MAD-CTG 3x weekly with 763 in 2011 comes to mind.

There was no demise. The flights didn't even start because UX decided to apply for authorization to the Aerocivil very late, so when the proposed date of launch came, they hadn't even been given the rights to sell tickets. UX blamed the colombian authorities and never started the flights, when it was their lack of organization that led to the late process.
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3552
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 40):
However, even now, places such as CTG and BAQ are paying the price of badly managed policies on airport development

Let me get this straight....it costs 66% more to board a int'l flight in those cities than BOG?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
RCS763AV
Topic Author
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 36):
Do you think that BOG provides more feed for the CLO-MAD flights and the MDE-MAD flights than CLO and MDE provide to BOG originating flights to MAD?

Oh definitely.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 36):
Same question. Do you really think that BOG provides more feed to MDE than it does to BOG-MAD flights?

Of course, AV said it themselves some time ago. The low-yielding, BOG-bound passengers are given the option of those flights all the time, to accommodate higher yielding pax and the existing connections on the non-stops.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 36):
IB play a lot with the A343 vs A346s. In the low season a lot of the flights to BOG have been A343s. In the peak, mostly A346s. It has clearly suffered as a result of AV's capacity increase and that shows in their reduction of frequencies to BOG.

Potatoe, potato. While it is not true that most of the flights during low seaosn are A343s, even if it was, they have high load factors, and the "suffering" you say is in general at all of their stations with the increased competition due to the reasons I stated above. That doesn't mean the BOG market isn't underserved. It's getting very annoying that you simple can't take that Bogotá is a large market on it's own, like some childish, regionalist, ridiculous argument that has to be going on, and on, and on. The thread can be used so much more productively.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 46):
Let me get this straight....it costs 66% more to board a int'l flight in those cities than BOG?

Or any other airport in the country, yes. these were badly negotiated concessions during the astrana government. BAQ was already repossesed by the government and a new process in underway. The CTG contract is still ongoing.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 46):
Let me get this straight....it costs 66% more to board a int'l flight in those cities than BOG?

It's actually 155%!! It sounds crazy, and it is! Just an example of the "development" policies of successive governments in Colombia. Lip service only of course. Contracts have typically had other interests in the hearts (and pockets) of politicians.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 47):
Of course, AV said it themselves some time ago. The low-yielding, BOG-bound passengers are given the option of those flights all the time, to accommodate higher yielding pax and the existing connections on the non-stops.

Avianca have never said such a thing!
The way to prove it is by seeing the fares. Just go and check trips BOG-MAD to see how many times it is cheaper to go via CLO or MDE.
I just had a look at the fares for dates in October, November and December and I can see that there is more of an incentive for pax in MDE and CLO to go via BOG than the other way round.

Not only that, but BOG originating pax can only go via MDE twice a week! MDE originating pax can connect via BOG twice a day just with AV. Pure common sense!

But it's not just CLO and MDE, of course. Aerocivil stats can shed some, albeit limited, slight on the matter.
Check PEI-MAD O+D figurres This i just on AV (other airlines do no segregate their traffic and only report total pax numbers. E.g, IB will appear all as BOG-MAD regardless of behind and onward connections) and on passengers with through ticketing. Those with separate tickets are not counted in that O+D, of course.

Anyway, PEI-MAD-PEI was 2108 in May. 11500 Jan to May. That is 70 pax a day PEI-MAD-PEI pax with through ticketing that contribute to AV's BOG-MAD flights. But there are of course many more: Just think UIO. GYE, VLN, CCS, LPB, CTG, BAQ, CUC, AXM, MZL, SMT, ADZ, LIM, MDE, SJO, CLO, PTY and beyond.

The figures for June should show the O+D PEI-MAD-PEI surging as AV had its first full month of twice a day ops BOG-MAD. Not because of more MAD-PEI pax, but because the new flight offers better connections and so passengers to PEI (that were not recorded as such before) are being taken from IB mainly.

O+D figues show such phenomena. When AV started its non-stop MAD-CLO and MAD-MDE flights, the O+D on these surged. Again, not necessarily more passengers, just that they get recorded whereas before they did not.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 47):
Potatoe, potato. While it is not true that most of the flights during low seaosn are A343s

If you are going to argue, it would be useful if you have some evidence.
In this case Aena.es in its statistics sections will furnish you with all the facts. Just select operations by plane type and you will see! Whereas July saw only 2 days of A343 ops to BOG with 29 of A346s, in March it was mostly A343s.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 47):
It's getting very annoying that you simple can't take that Bogotá is a large market on it's own, like some childish, regionalist, ridiculous argument

Whereas BOG is an important market, I can only smile to see you so convinced of BOG not needing the connections for a 2 a day flight to MAD.
I am afraid that it s you who is childish and regionalist. Some rigour would not go amiss.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 47):
Or any other airport in the country

Except that it's not 66% more. It's 155% more!
BAQ is now in state control and the airport fee per passenger came down to a "mere" US$ 86. Still 139% more than BOG! Again, this shows the development strategy of yet Colombia's government goes on.

In other news:
Viva Colombia has applied to a number of routes. A mixture of domestic trunk and niche routes, but also what would be its first international services:
MDE-MEX
MDE-CUN
MDE-Panama (PTY, Howard or Rio Hato).

LAN Colombia has requested authority to fly BOG-CUN

AV has applied for PEI-CTG-JFK service 3 x weekly.
Here it would go on to compete on the jetBlue JFK-CTG service.

AV had already applied to serve BOG-GUA. Service will start in November.
Leaving BOG at 2 pm and returning at 9pm service is timed for connections to and from different cities in Colombia as well as Brasil (GRU and GIG), Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Venezuela (CCS and VLN), Ecuador (UIO and GYE), and of course MAD.

[Edited 2013-08-08 11:42:39]
 
trent772
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:08 pm

RE: Colombian Aviation #14

Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:33 pm

In other news, two A320's bumped into each other while taxiing into a parking stand, nothing big really but it made the news. The planes involved were N345AV and N992AV.

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/bog...EB-NEW_NOTA_INTERIOR-12985424.html

Another member of the A32S family, this time an A319, reg N612MX suffered a bird strike while on approach into ElDorado, can't find a link but it was all over twitter.

So, with these two minor incidents and the closure of the northern runway at EDR it made for some long and awful delays for passengers all over Colombia.
Pedaling Squares…