Akiestar
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KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:43 pm

So this is making the rounds in local media here in the Philippines: Arjean Marie Belco, an indigenous student from Mindanao who was selected to go to Brazil for World Youth Day (and was traveling outside the Philippines for the first time), was denied boarding on a KLM flight to Amsterdam from Kuala Lumpur.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/811...rld-youth-day-delegates-flight-hit

According to the organization sponsoring her trip, KLM was asking very probing questions (why is your passport so new, how much money do you have, etc.) and ultimately denied her boarding despite having full documentation that her expenses are covered for and she is going to Brazil for World Youth Day. In effect, the agent was acting like an immigration officer when he doesn't need to be. (Note that Filipinos don't need visas to go to Brazil.)

While I love KL and am very willing to fly with them, this does no good for their reputation here, and even I am at a loss as to how this could possibly happen. People are calling on the agent, a certain Mr. Shawa, to apologize to her, and some are even calling on Ms. Belco to file a complaint against KLM. Some are demanding a boycott.

(After the incident, she was eventually allowed to board after being stuck in Kuala Lumpur for two days, with her sponsor even having to fly all the way there from Manila just to plead with the airline to let her fly.)

[Edited 2013-07-23 06:39:08]
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:57 pm

The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

If all the people who attend such events were honest there wouldn't be a problem, unfortunately however a few always use it as an opportunity to chnage their Country of residence. It has been reported in the UK media this week that there are still 70 participants from last years Olympic games outstaying their welcome, some having claimed asylum, but the majority have just disappeared.
 
Akiestar
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:02 pm

Here's the original Facebook note from Goodxorg explaining the incident.

http://www.facebook.com/Goodxorg/posts/527828993937098

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

I did mention that Filipinos don't need visas to enter Brazil, right?

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
If all the people who attend such events were honest there wouldn't be a problem, unfortunately however a few always use it as an opportunity to chnage their Country of residence.

Filipinos would prefer to become TNTs (tago nang tago) in the wealthy countries of the West, particularly the U.S., Canada, Japan or Western Europe. Not a country like Brazil, which is nowhere near as wealthy as those favorite targets of overstaying Filipinos. (In fact, more Brazilians are moving here than there are Filipinos moving there.)

However, while the risk is understandable, I am at a loss as to how the airline would be the ultimate arbiter of one's intent to supposedly immigrate.

[Edited 2013-07-23 06:03:13]
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:04 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

Only if his documents are not correct. As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil then the airline bears zero responsability in this case. I am sure also that she did have a return ticket so again Kl will be zero out of pocket expenses.
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FURUREFA
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 1):
The problem is that if immigration at the far end say no, the airline has to repatriate the person at their expense, even worse in some cases the Country saying no might impose a fine.

Only if his documents are not correct. As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil then the airline bears zero responsability in this case. I am sure also that she did have a return ticket so again Kl will be zero out of pocket expenses.

Some countries have other regulations in the place of or in addition to visa requirements (medical, financial, etc.). The issue is that often not only is the airline fined, but so is the individual agent in charge of documentation. In addition, most airlines have a desk that can help with documentation issues, and their word often supercedes the agent's.

In short, let's wait to chastize before we have all the facts.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
Only if his documents are not correct. As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil then the airline bears zero responsability in this case.

That's the curious thing about it. It looks like the agent may have overreacted based upon the routing and how recently the ticket was purchased. But if documents were in order, the ticket was valid in KLM's system, and she posed no obvious risk to other passengers (like by being drunk), that shouldn't disqualify someone from boarding a flight. It isn't against the law to fly via a third country in order to save $1,000, as this passenger apparently did, according to what was published.

Airlines have to realize that in the world of internet sales, people will take advantage of deals originating in other countries, and carry those passengers even if the ticket looks "too cheap".
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RussianJet
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:20 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 2):
I did mention that Filipinos don't need visas to enter Brazil, right?

You did. Common misconception though - not needing a visa does not equate to being assured of entry. There will likely be questions on the border, and the chance of being refused entry. It happens in lots of countries, on a regular basis, for passengers who don't require a visa prior to travel. Add to the mix recent reports that Brazil is experiencing high levels of illegal workers from Asia, and the fact that the airline is probably all too used to having to pick up the cost of those refused entry, and their position becomes a little more understandable. Doesn't mean that they're in the right here, but let's at least get the full context right.
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PlaneInsomniac
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 2):
I did mention that Filipinos don't need visas to enter Brazil, right?
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 3):
As Philippines citizens do not need a visa to enter Brazil

The issue here seemed to be the transit at AMS, through which the girl was supposed to connect. This is mentioned in the original FB post, where they state that the KLM representative suggested they get in contact with the Dutch (and not the Brazilian) embassy.

In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration, obviously. So if she had been denied there, KLM would have had a problem on their hands.

A few more thoughts about the Inquirer report:
- This is all based on a personal, one-sided FB post. Hardly a trustworthy source of information.
- Although the FB poster painstakingly enumerates the contents of the "folder of documents" the girl was bringing along, he does not mention any return ticket. Actually, the post explicitly only mentions a ticket TO Brazil, booked at short notice. Strange, to say the least.
- The charity funding the trip can hardly be considered a known quantity. The FB poster himself states that the trip the girl was to be sent on was a first-time "experiment" funded by a kind of crowd-sourcing effort.
- The FB poster states that the itinerary was changed on short notice to save money, although the trip had been planned for a long time. This appears strange, as the cheapest way to book a trip early on is by buying a non-refundable ticket. Especially when dates and destination are well-known, such as in the case of the World Youth Day.
- The FB poster chooses to personally and publicly name the KLM representative and paint him in a negative light ("he laughed at us"), and even goes as far as suggesting racist motives. Not normally the behaviour of somebody whos is interested in a factual discussion.

Frankly, the more I think about it, the unlikelier the FB story becomes. That an airline employee would arbitrarily deny somebody boarding "just because" although the passenger possessed the requisite documentation seems somewhat far-fetched. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to the story.
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Akiestar
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
The issue here seemed to be the transit at AMS, through which the girl was supposed to connect. This is mentioned in the original FB post, where they state that the KLM representative suggested they get in contact with the Dutch (and not the Brazilian) embassy.

In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration, obviously. So if she had been denied there, KLM would have had a problem on their hands.

The Netherlands (and heck, the entire Schengen area for non-Schengen to non-Schengen transit) has sterile transit, and transiting KUL-AMS-GIG, she wouldn't need to pass through Dutch immigration. So how did KLM come to the conclusion that Ms. Belco needs to deal with Dutch immigration if she's not entering the Schengen Area? (I would presume the airline would know how its own hub works, right?)

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
This appears strange, as the cheapest way to book a trip early on is by buying a non-refundable ticket.

I paid €1250 to fly MNL-AMS-CDG-LIN-AMS-MNL on KLM in April for a conference, bought on the day of departure (3:30 pm to be exact). Buying cheap tickets does not always mean having to buy them months in advance.

[Edited 2013-07-23 08:03:54]
 
TYCOON
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:01 pm

Connecting on a KLM flight from KL to Brazil, one doesn't need to go through passport control as they are not technically entering into the Schengen area. If the passenger were connecting to a Schengen country then they would.
Furthermore, my understanding is if a passenger is refused by immigration control it can only be the airline's responsibility if the airline was negligent (ie didn't check for valid VISA or if a one-way ticket didn't have proof of return travel or residency permit etc...).
 
airDFW
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:02 pm

I think the agent is concerned not about the ultimate destination rather the stop over at Amsterdam. The problem is some people abuse this transit privileges and demand asylum. I think that is what the KL ticket agent was concerned about. Sad but that is what people from poor countries always face. The presumption of abuses like that and until you prove otherwise but new passport, youth traveling alone, no previous trips etc are making it tough for the agent and it is easy to deny the boarding.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:03 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 8):
The Netherlands (and heck, the entire Schengen area for non-Schengen to non-Schengen transit) has sterile transit, and transiting KUL-AMS-GIG, she wouldn't need to pass through Dutch immigration. So technically, the person in question does not need to deal with Dutch immigration.

If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.
 
RussianJet
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:06 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 9):
Furthermore, my understanding is if a passenger is refused by immigration control it can only be the airline's responsibility if the airline was negligent (ie didn't check for valid VISA or if a one-way ticket didn't have proof of return travel or residency permit etc...).

No. That is generally true in the case of charges or fines, but the cost of repatriation and possibly also detention will generally always be borne by the airline regardless of the reason for refusal.
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AeroWesty
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):
If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.

If Brazil said no, she flies back to KUL, where she was admitted into Malaysia without problem.
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RussianJet
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
If Brazil said no, she flies back to KUL, where she was admitted into Malaysia without problem.

Completely correct.
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Viscount724
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration, obviously.

Not correct. She can go directly from gate to gate with no passport controls. She would only have to pass immigration controls if she was staying in the Netherlands or connecting to another Schengen country.
 
bennett123
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:56 pm

Was there any doubt about the passport itself.

How recently was it issued.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 4):
In short, let's wait to chastize before we have all the facts

Sorry? i did not chastize nobody..

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):
In order to transit through AMS, the girl would have had to pass Dutch immigration,

Nope.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 16):
Was there any doubt about the passport itself.

How recently was it issued.

In one of my trips i flew with a new passport less than 24 hours old, no problems there.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):
If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.

How did you come up with such a conclusion?  
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MAS777
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:16 pm

Just wondered if anyone thought that the KLM agent could have been concerned about the possibility of human trafficking... Thus wanted further clarification?
 
bennett123
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:38 pm

I am flying with FR.

I know that the checking in process requires confirmation of passport details.

If you booked a flight quoting 1 passport number, and by the date of the flight, you had a new passport, would this be an issue.
 
andrefranca
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 2):
Not a country like Brazil, which is nowhere near as wealthy as those favorite targets of overstaying Filipinos. (In fact, more Brazilians are moving here than there are Filipinos moving there.)

Not true at all, the per capita may tell we earn average 765 usd a month (Philippines is 390 usd a month) , I honestly can't imagine how people live with 765 usd here, most of people I know at least earn an average 1200 usd a month.

Secondly as a former airline employee (I'm not naming the airlines of course), during training Filipino nationality was always one of the nationalities taken as a "risky" nationality due to the high number of over-stayers, I'm not saying what the KLM officer did in KUL was right, but he may have his reasons! on my business trips to Panamá it's very common to see Filipino ship crew being detained by immigration and then boarded somewhere else.

Apart from that, Brazil is suffering immigration crises along with many other problems we are trying to solve, my city MAO legalized +-10 THOUSAND Haitians refugees on the past 2 years, without counting peruvians, bolivians, cubans to name a few, immigration is under pressure and maybe they refuse lots of KLM pax's coming in, who knows?

Naturally it's common for us to move to where it's cheaper to live, as I type my friend Eduardo may be sleeping in Manila, he told me with 40% of his monthly check he pays 3 months of his rent in a nice part of manila.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
not needing a visa does not equate to being assured of entry. There will likely be questions on the border, and the chance of being refused entry. It happens in lots of countries, on a regular basis, for passengers who don't require a visa prior to travel.

  
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 17):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 11):If however Brazil say no, KLM have a problem with a passenger stuck air side at AMS.
How did you come up with such a conclusion?

Easily, once the passenger commences their journey, if the destination country says "no entry" its down to KLM to sort it out..

Immigration at the destination have every right to say no, regardless of visas etc. If the KLM agent had reasonable grounds to be suspicious their bosses would expect them to either say no or seek guidance from their superiors
 
mjoelnir
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:59 pm

Typical a.net discussion: rule # 1, the airline or there staff is always right, the pax is always wrong.
rule # 2 if the pax is right rule # 1 still applies, but a.net needs more information..


How can an airline or there representative, having sold a ticket therefore entered a contract to fly said pax from A to B, deny boarding when all the papers are OK. That is simple breach of contract no excuse.

All this arguments above about the responsibility of the airline if you take them really seriously, the airline should stop flying passengers.

[Edited 2013-07-23 17:22:36]
 
PRFlyer
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:02 am

She is on her way to Brazil after KLM Malaysia intervened. It's in their FB page.
 
OB1504
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 4):
Some countries have other regulations in the place of or in addition to visa requirements (medical, financial, etc.). The issue is that often not only is the airline fined, but so is the individual agent in charge of documentation. In addition, most airlines have a desk that can help with documentation issues, and their word often supercedes the agent's.

   At my current airline, the first time I check in a passenger who is later denied entry to their destination country, I automatically receive a three-day involuntary vacation (suspension). If it happens a second time, it's immediate termination. And this is actually a very lenient policy, as my previous airline would terminate employees on the spot for the first immigration fine. The fines can run anywhere between $1,000 to $12,000 per person, which can sometimes be up to half of the ticket agent's annual pay.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
You did. Common misconception though - not needing a visa does not equate to being assured of entry. There will likely be questions on the border, and the chance of being refused entry. It happens in lots of countries, on a regular basis, for passengers who don't require a visa prior to travel. Add to the mix recent reports that Brazil is experiencing high levels of illegal workers from Asia, and the fact that the airline is probably all too used to having to pick up the cost of those refused entry, and their position becomes a little more understandable. Doesn't mean that they're in the right here, but let's at least get the full context right.

   The airline reserves the right to deny boarding to passengers who may technically meet all of the immigration requirements as outlined in TIMATIC, but who may otherwise create doubt as to their admissability. Considering the potential implications to his employment, I don't blame the KL agent for erring on the side of caution. Airlines simply do not like to take chances when it comes to immigration and the staff are all too aware of this.

[Edited 2013-07-23 18:40:57]
 
OB1504
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 22):
Typical a.net discussion: rule # 1, the airline or there staff is always right, the pax is always wrong.
rule # 2 if the pax is right rule # 1 still applies, but a.net needs more information..


How can an airline or there representative, having sold a ticket therefore entered a contract to fly said pax from A to B, deny boarding when all the papers are OK. That is simple breach of contract no excuse.

All this arguments above about the responsibility of the airline if you take them really seriously, the airline should stop flying passengers.

The passenger may qualify for an involuntary refund, but at the end of the day, the airline reserves the right to break off the contract and return any payment to any given passenger.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:11 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 24):
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 25):

You seem both of the opinion that an airline entering into a contract with a customer has no responsibility to fulfill this contract, I think you are in error there.

There must be a difference between being negligent and transporting a passenger clearly lacking the documents for example a visa to enter the country he is traveling to and a passenger having all the required documentation and being refused entry on a the whim of the immigration agent.

If you can show me any example of an airline being fined for transporting a passenger having all the required travel documentation and still being refused entry, you have an argument, up to then I take it as another a.net hype to keep the rule # 1.
 
MarcoPoloWorld
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:39 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 22):
Typical a.net discussion: rule # 1, the airline or there staff is always right, the pax is always wrong.
rule # 2 if the pax is right rule # 1 still applies, but a.net needs more information..


How can an airline or there representative, having sold a ticket therefore entered a contract to fly said pax from A to B, deny boarding when all the papers are OK. That is simple breach of contract no excuse.

All this arguments above about the responsibility of the airline if you take them really seriously, the airline should stop flying passengers.

And just as if to prove your point, this guy posts the following just after your post:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 24):
At my current airline, the first time I check in a passenger who is later denied entry to their destination country, I automatically receive a three-day involuntary vacation (suspension). If it happens a second time, it's immediate termination. And this is actually a very lenient policy, as my previous airline would terminate employees on the spot for the first immigration fine. The fines can run anywhere between $1,000 to $12,000 per person, which can sometimes be up to half of the ticket agent's annual pay.

First of all, then it would be impossible for any check-in agent to retain his position for any considerable length of time. That person is going to be checking in tens of thousands of people, and of course someone is going to be denied entry at their destination for some reason or another from time to time. Just to enter Canada, an American could be denied by simply having a marijuana possession conviction from the 70s from the shared criminal record database, from what I've read a couple of years ago.
 
FURUREFA
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 24):
At my current airline, the first time I check in a passenger who is later denied entry to their destination country, I automatically receive a three-day involuntary vacation (suspension). If it happens a second time, it's immediate termination. And this is actually a very lenient policy, as my previous airline would terminate employees on the spot for the first immigration fine. The fines can run anywhere between $1,000 to $12,000 per person, which can sometimes be up to half of the ticket agent's annual pay.

As someone who has worked for the #1 and #2 largest airlines in the world (hint), I can only emphasize the person liability that goes into international documentation. If only some of the posters here would acknowledge..
 
JAAlbert
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 22):
Typical a.net discussion: rule # 1, the airline or there staff is always right, the pax is always wrong.
rule # 2 if the pax is right rule # 1 still applies, but a.net needs more information..

Hilarious!

So she basically had to fly 3/4 way around the world in the opposite direction to get to Brazil? Is there no better direct routing? If I were an airline agent (see comment 1 above) I'd wonder what a passenger from the Philippines heading to Brazil is doing at AMS.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:15 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 29):
So she basically had to fly 3/4 way around the world in the opposite direction to get to Brazil? Is there no better direct routing?

Check the Great Circle Mapper. Via the Pacific isn't shorter over traditional airline routes.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 29):
I'd wonder what a passenger from the Philippines heading to Brazil is doing at AMS.

She was denied boarding at KUL.
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Akiestar
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 29):
So she basically had to fly 3/4 way around the world in the opposite direction to get to Brazil? Is there no better direct routing? If I were an airline agent (see comment 1 above) I'd wonder what a passenger from the Philippines heading to Brazil is doing at AMS.

Yes. Flying in the opposite direction, either she will have two stops, or worse, she will transit the United States. One-stop itineraries from Southeast Asia to South America are almost always westbound through the Middle East or Europe.
 
Apprentice
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:11 am

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 7):

How about been profiled by Schengen zone airline' clerk due country of origin even when fliying as a/c mechanic and listed in General Declaration?
In my case, just a passport country change was necessary, now nobody care who, where, when. I wonder..
A "NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor
 
OB1504
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:59 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 26):
You seem both of the opinion that an airline entering into a contract with a customer has no responsibility to fulfill this contract, I think you are in error there.

I am, because the airline does not have such a responsibility. If the airline fails to live up to its end of the bargain, it gives the passenger their money back and tells them to have a nice day.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 27):
First of all, then it would be impossible for any check-in agent to retain his position for any considerable length of time. That person is going to be checking in tens of thousands of people, and of course someone is going to be denied entry at their destination for some reason or another from time to time. Just to enter Canada, an American could be denied by simply having a marijuana possession conviction from the 70s from the shared criminal record database, from what I've read a couple of years ago.

The agent has no way of knowing that and would not be held liable for the passenger's failure to disclose. However, if the agent has an inkling that the passenger may be denied entry to the destination country, he or she must follow up on that or risk unemployment.
 
Stratofish
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:06 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 22):
Typical a.net discussion: rule # 1, the airline or there staff is always right, the pax is always wrong.
rule # 2 if the pax is right rule # 1 still applies, but a.net needs more information..
Oh boy, what a great contribution to the forum... If you cannot accept that people here actually work in the industry and try to explain what the average flier won't understand, then what are you seeking from these forums?

How can an airline or there representative, having sold a ticket therefore entered a contract to fly said pax from A to B, deny boarding when all the papers are OK. That is simple breach of contract no excuse.

Boarding can be denied on grounds of said contract.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 24):
The airline reserves the right to deny boarding to passengers who may technically meet all of the immigration requirements as outlined in TIMATIC, but who may otherwise create doubt as to their admissability. Considering the potential implications to his employment, I don't blame the KL agent for erring on the side of caution. Airlines simply do not like to take chances when it comes to immigration and the staff are all too aware of this.

Spot on!
Furthermore KL probably employs outsourced agents at KUL who just fulfill the handling orders they got from AMS.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 26):
You seem both of the opinion that an airline entering into a contract with a customer has no responsibility to fulfill this contract, I think you are in error there.

I'm sorry, but you think wrong.

It was an unfortunate incident for both sides, sure. But simply blaming one airline or one employee fails short of the real problem. As long as states outsource their problems to the airlines, incidents like the one described here not only can but DO happen DAILY at almost every airline. Sad but true.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 3922
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:13 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 33):
I am, because the airline does not have such a responsibility. If the airline fails to live up to its end of the bargain, it gives the passenger their money back and tells them to have a nice day.


If airlines could just give the money back why are they offering compensation and a new flight when overbooking, they could just give the money back. Or if you want to fill the plane with higher paying customers you throw out all the cheap passengers having booked there flight early.
I think you should come down from your airline has no responsibility to fulfill a contract, there has been hefty compensations payed out for such at least here in Europe.
One business men hired a private jet instead and send, I think it was SAS, the bill and won the case when the airline did not want to pay up.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 33):
The agent has no way of knowing that and would not be held liable for the passenger's failure to disclose. However, if the agent has an inkling that the passenger may be denied entry to the destination country, he or she must follow up on that or risk unemployment.

Still in the pax is always wrong mode. We are talking here about denying a pax with all traveling documents OK from boarding, there is no right for the airline or there staff to arbitrarily deny a passenger boarding without a valid reason.
And a hunch or a itchy nose is no valid reason.

There still has somebody to mention a case were an airline has been fined for transporting a pax with all travel documents in order because the immigration agent denied entry for no reason and a reason the airline could not have known.

There are no special "aviation rules" allowing airlines to breach contracts without consequences.
 
777klm
Posts: 480
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:24 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 35):
If airlines could just give the money back why are they offering compensation and a new flight when overbooking, they could just give the money back. Or if you want to fill the plane with higher paying customers you throw out all the cheap passengers having booked there flight early.
I think you should come down from your airline has no responsibility to fulfill a contract, there has been hefty compensations payed out for such at least here in Europe.
One business men hired a private jet instead and send, I think it was SAS, the bill and won the case when the airline did not want to pay up.

Have a look at the KLM General Conditions of Carriage and then Article 9 (section k) in particular:

The Passenger does not appear to be in possession of valid travel documents, may seek or has sought to illegally enter a country through which he may be in transit , or for which he does not have a valid entry document, has destroyed travel documents during the flight, has refused to allow copies thereof to be made and kept by the Carrier, or the Passenger’s travel documents have expired, are incomplete in light of the regulations in force, or appear to be fraudulent or otherwise suspicious (for example: identity theft, forgery or counterfeiting of documents).

Perhaps unnecessary to mention that the passenger in the present case did agree with these general conditions.

Refusing someone because an airline wants to carry higher paying customers instead is obviously not part of these General Conditions and will indeed lead to compensation under EU law.

Edited for spelling

[Edited 2013-07-24 02:25:34]
Next flight: AMS - BCN - EZE
 
fn1001
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:36 pm

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:06 am

From my personal experiences during the nineties and the early noughties, I fully agree with the “personal, one-sided FB post”, which I would not call being a “hardly a trustworthy source of information”.

As a holder of a non-EU-Passport, but frequently travelling at that time into the EU and Schengen Area, I can tell many stories about the humiliating treatment of local employees of big european carriers. They did not hesitate to give me the feeling that they were superior due to the fact that I was only a humble customer, suspected to be a potentially illegal immigrant to the EU, but they made it to be employed by a western company. Sometimes they were worse than the romanian or hungarian border police at that time, who meanwhile became really polite and friendly.
Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 3922
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:32 am

Quoting 777klm (Reply 36):
The Passenger does not appear to be in possession of valid travel documents, may seek or has sought to illegally enter a country through which he may be in transit , or for which he does not have a valid entry document, has destroyed travel documents during the flight, has refused to allow copies thereof to be made and kept by the Carrier, or the Passenger’s travel documents have expired, are incomplete in light of the regulations in force, or appear to be fraudulent or otherwise suspicious (for example: identity theft, forgery or counterfeiting of documents).

It is very clear that you do not read what others are writing.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PAX HAVING ALL THE RIGHT TRAVELING DOCUMENTS, so what you are referring to DOES NOT APPLY.

People here seem to think airlines can just deny boarding and pay the money back if they want to.

I think that in this case the airline or the airline agent was pissed because of the low price ticket.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1613
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:39 am

Immigration in Brazil is already lax as it is. During WYD, it's even more so. She would have no problems entering the country. Seriously, a Spaniard would have more problems than a Filipino.
 
User avatar
MillwallSean
Posts: 859
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RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:13 am

Mjoelnir is right. As long as she has the valid documents the person denying her is in breach of contract.

There are no special laws for airline contracts and in this case she obviously has the right documents. She has been sent and picked by the church and they have sorted her documents and ticket.
Knowing the airlines, knowing what poor people of Mindanao looks like, I am not surprised that this has happened. The KL agent in KUL has seen a girl that's never ever traveled before, the girl looks poor, dress like a poor girl and acts like she never left the kampong.
The agent is naturally suspicious. When they realise she is Filippina too, a nation of maids and other suspect trades (in Malaysia) all alarm bells were ringing.
Instead of following protocol she assumes and thus the boarding gets denied. Add on that World church days isn't exactly a great thing among the mainly muslim staff at KUL airport. Maybe understandable yet a wrong decision.

Personally I feel for this poor girl thats been through alot. I hope her faith helps her to forgive her accusers and that KL management deals with this. Stand the person who did this down and educate them, a loss of face ie power taken away temporary is a great way to remind staff in Asia not to overstep their position.
This is also something I see happening here. Because when dutch staff becomes aware of this they will quell this fire as soon as possible.

There is no way KL management will allow the European press to run "poor catholic girls dream trip ruined by KL" story's.
That would hurt KL enormously and they will ensure they are on top of this situation very fast and the only way to solve that is to get the girl to Brazil asap and to accept blame and put it solely on the hands of a mistake by an individual in Malaysia.
Someone is going to get spanked hard for this in KUL...
No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
 
777klm
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:23 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:00 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
It is very clear that you do not read what others are writing.

No worries, I did read the other posts.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PAX HAVING ALL THE RIGHT TRAVELING DOCUMENTS, so what you are referring to DOES NOT APPLY.

No need to shout. The only thing I'm saying is that if an airline reasonably doubts a passenger's reasons for travel (for example may seek to illegally enter a country through which he be in transit ), the airline can refuse carriage to that passenger. I just can't believe any airline would refuse carriage simply because they don't like a passenger's face.

I suspect they needed to further examine the purpose of this passenger's trip and allowed her on a later flight after all.

Still, we're discussing a story of which we don't know the details of.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
I think that in this case the airline or the airline agent was pissed because of the low price ticket.

That's just silly. Why would an airline sell a ticket and then be pissed because of the low price ticket? The airline agent doesn't have any reason to be pissed either as he/she was not disadvantaged by this passenger.
Next flight: AMS - BCN - EZE
 
Apprentice
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:51 pm

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:41 pm

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 34):
] As long as states outsource their problems to the airlines, ...

Airlines will outsorce their to custommers ?
A "NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor
 
AA94
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:19 pm

KLM has an interesting tool on their website where you are able to input your nationality, embarkation point, transfer point, and destination point, and you will be advised on what requirements you must satisfy in order to travel.

For reference, here is the relevant information:

Quote:


Visa Information - Transit
Netherlands (NL)


Visa required, except for Holders of onward tickets transiting
Transit Without Visa (TWOV).

Transit Without Visa (TWOV): Passing through an international
transit area of the airport in order to board a connecting (or
to proceed by the same) flight, without entering the country
(i.e. clearing immigration).

Unless stated otherwise, passengers wishing to TWOV must:
- be en-route to a third country (e.g. itinerary TYO-LON-TYO
is not considered TWOV);

- prove that they will continue their journey within the
prescribed period (e.g. hold onward tickets);

- have documents required for entry into the country of
destination and for transit through countries en-route;

- remain in the transit area (airside) or on the aircraft.

Visa Information - Destination
Brazil (BR)



Passport required.
- Passport and/or passport replacing documents must be valid
for the period of intended stay.

Visa required, except for a max. stay of 90 days:
- for holders of normal, emergency or temporary passports
issued to nationals of Philippines;

Additional Information:

- Visas issued to nationals of Philippines are valid for first
entry within 90 days, and the validity of the visa begins
on the day of the first entry in Brazil.

- Extension of stay possible for those who are visa exempt.

- Visitors are required to hold proof of sufficient funds to
cover their stay and documents required for their next
destination.

- Passengers registered in passport of companion must hold an
individual visa.

Warning:
- Visitors not holding return/onward ticket could be refused
entry.

- Exempt are holders of a "VIPER" visa issued by Brazil.



[Edited 2013-07-24 06:22:52]
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 43):
I know we've basically addressed this already, but based on the information we have, it seems like she met the requirements for transit in the Netherlands and admittance to Brazil. That doesn't necessarily mean a customs officer in Brazil can't deny her entry, but it appears that all her documents were in order to travel.

Advice on basic requirements like that can only take you so far. What advice like that does not give you is chapter and verse on immigration laws/rules and how they will be considered by the immigration officer. Again, not needing a visa and having a valid passport does not equate to being assured of entry. I can't speak on the finer points of immigration law in Brazil, but in general that is an important principle that applies in many countries around the world. Airlines, rightly or wrongly, are often wary. This is because, as discussed earlier, they are still usually liable for repatriation costs irrespective of whether correct documentation was held.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
AA94
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 38):
I think that in this case the airline or the airline agent was pissed because of the low price ticket.

I think you're incorrect.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 35):
Still in the pax is always wrong mode. We are talking here about denying a pax with all traveling documents OK from boarding, there is no right for the airline or there staff to arbitrarily deny a passenger boarding without a valid reason.
And a hunch or a itchy nose is no valid reason.

When an agent's job, presumably their livelihood and sole source of income (assuming they don't have other jobs stashed away somewhere), is on the line, intuition definitely comes into play.

I just returned from Frankfurt two days ago. Naturally, I had all necessary travel documents. At check-in, I was asked a series of security questions about my luggage -- "Did you pack this bag yourself?" "Did anyone give you anything to take with you?" "What did you purchase at the airport?"

Even though I satisfy the requirements to fly and have purchased a ticket (entered into the contract), if I don't answer those questions satisfactorily, I'm a candidate for denied check-in. It's as simple as that.
If you can't take the heat, you best get out of the kitchen
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting AA94 (Reply 45):
When an agent's job, presumably their livelihood and sole source of income (assuming they don't have other jobs stashed away somewhere), is on the line, intuition definitely comes into play.

I would find it fairly hard to believe that an agent would be canned for allowing a correctly-documented passenger to travel, even if they were refused entry on arrival at destination. If said agent allowed someone to fly without the requisite visa or valid passport, then I could absolutely see that being career-limiting.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting 777klm (Reply 41):
I just can't believe any airline would refuse carriage simply because they don't like a passenger's face.

It is the most likely reason. Malays are known to look down on their neighbors (with the exception of Singaporeans). Long story, twenty years back America told Malaysia it will be a developed nation by 2020, so they are superior to others and they have to conduct themselves in a superior manner. Now they are in a worst state than most of their neighbors economically, but old habits die hard.

If Filipinos don't need visa to Brazil, how can KLM be fined. Even if she is denied entry in to Brazil, and she has round trip ticket, what is KLMs problem. Even if she didn't have return ticket repatriation is Philippines flag carriers responsibility not KLM's.
 
diesel33
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:28 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:31 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
I would find it fairly hard to believe that an agent would be canned for allowing a correctly-documented passenger to travel, even if they were refused entry on arrival at destination. If said agent allowed someone to fly without the requisite visa or valid passport, then I could absolutely see that being career-limiting.

I work for an airline (a large international one) and I agree.
 
Akiestar
Topic Author
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am

RE: KLM Denies Boarding To Filipino WYD Participant

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:05 pm

I'm not sure if only people in the Philippines can see this, but KLM has issued a response: http://www.facebook.com/KLM/posts/10151518209660773.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 47):
Even if she didn't have return ticket repatriation is Philippines flag carriers responsibility not KLM's.

But PR doesn't fly to Brazil...yet. 

However, I thought that if someone was refused entry, it would be the carrying airline that bears the responsibility of bringing her back to the point of origin, which in this case is KUL?

(Also, the Philippine government's policy on repatriation is that repatriation is effected only in times of emergency. So far, the last mass repatriation of overseas Filipinos was with Syria last year.)

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 47):
Malays are known to look down on their neighbors (with the exception of Singaporeans)

Could politics be involved, given what happened in Sabah earlier this year?

[Edited 2013-07-24 08:19:00]

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