cokepopper
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Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:34 pm

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...aunch-daily-seattle-to-lhr-service

The route will be operated by a 210-seat Boeing 767-300ER aircraft featuring 35 full flat-bed seats in business, 32 seats in premium economy and 143 in economy.

Outgoing flight 37 departs Seattle-Tacoma International Airport at 1840 and arrives at LHR at 1205 the following day.

The return service, flight 36, leaves Heathrow at 1220 and arrives at Seattle at 1440 the same day.

[Edited 2013-07-23 12:36:37]
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:44 pm

Given the return departure time, this is a scissors a/c routing. Possibly paired with??
 
cokepopper
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:51 pm

 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:02 pm

Excuse me while I keel over in shock! This was so unexpected.

What's next for DL out of SEA? Seems like they are running out of new international routes that would make sense from SEA.

From past postings, it looks like a second DTW-LHR and SLC-LHR are coming soon too.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:14 pm

Timings suggest the current DL10 or DL40 slot, is this expansion or re-allocating existing capacity?
 
Prost
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:19 pm

DL bought two paair of LHR slots for $40+ million in the spring, I believe from from Alitalia. It was on the first quarter conference call.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:27 pm

Glad to see the departure time just like I predicted in an earlier thread. The current SEA-AMS, and SEA-CDG have early jet lag inducing departure times since it is hard to sleep in the afternoon. This is much better. Also a noon arrival in LHR is too late for most east coast departures, so it is less valuable and of better use from the west coast.

The 767-300 also makes sense since most SEA international flights are on 767s
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SANFan
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:33 pm

Start date March 29, 2014.

bb
 
B747forever
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:36 pm

Finally some well needed competition on the SEA-LHR route. I wonder how this will affect BA.
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CONTACREW
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):
Possibly paired with??

ATL, BOS & JFK all have 763s on the LHR route so the return aircraft could go JFK - LHR - SEA - LHR - ATL etc.
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MIflyer12
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 6):
The 767-300 also makes sense since most SEA international flights are on 767s

It's also Delta's smallest aircraft with adequate range and lie-flat seats.
 
by738
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
I wonder how this will affect BA

If the 2008 NW attempt was anything to go by....
"Anthony Black, a spokesman for Delta Air Lines which recently acquired Northwest, said Thursday the (SEA) landing slot at London's Heathrow Airport is being allocated to "a more profitable route."
The continued high BA prices certainly didn't reflect any significant competition at the time.
Will be interesting to see how this pans out with improving economies both sides
 
rwsea
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 11):
If the 2008 NW attempt was anything to go by....

It isn't anything to go by. DL's situation at SEA is much different than what NW had at the time. The economy is better and the flight times are much better. This will do fine for DL.
 
Prost
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:03 pm

As mentioned above, these are much better slots, and DL has a lot more international out of SEA than NW ever had. I would think that with all the international out of SEA, DL has more frequent fliers in SEA than NW had, although SkyMiles doesn't have the best reputation. Also, the 767-300 is smaller than the A330s that NW was trying to fill. I imagine that LHR was a market that corporate clients in the Northwest were expecting or demanding.

All in all, I don't think BA has anything to worry about, the market should be large enough for both carriers.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:06 pm

DL will also be getting feed traffic from AS.
 
Prost
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:08 pm

NW also had AS feed traffic.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 15):
NW also had AS feed traffic.

There are some rather large differences between then and now:

1. AS has a much better route structure from which to feed traffic;
2. The joint venture between VS and DL;
3. A more developed alliance network.

It's a smart move by DL and should do well.
 
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
From past postings, it looks like a second DTW-LHR and SLC-LHR are coming soon too.

Eventually but Delta needs slots. This flight is because of the Alitalia slot they purchased. With the whole Virgin thing i am thinking Delta thinks they can get more into LHR down the road. Would be cool is SLC-LHR can happen for Summer 2014.
 
AS737MAX
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:32 am

How will British Airways react? I know SEA is much bigger than PDX, but is seattle really able to sustain all this international service?
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dtw2hyd
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 3):
From past postings, it looks like a second DTW-LHR

DL is printing money on this route and there is no competition. DL is charging $2500 for round trip Y between DTW-LHR. I doubt they want to short change themselves. When BA was operating to Detroit you could get round trip Y for less than $500.
 
IL96M
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting cokepopper (Thread starter):
Outgoing flight 37 departs Seattle-Tacoma International Airport at 1840 and arrives at LHR at 1205 the following day.

The return service, flight 36, leaves Heathrow at 1220 and arrives at Seattle at 1440 the same day.

Uh... 15 minute turn-around?
  
 
cokepopper
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:05 am

Quoting IL96M (Reply 20):

Turn to where? Its obvious that the A/C isn't going back to SEA.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 18):
How will British Airways react?

There's a lot of room in BA's schedule. BA52 3x/week starts up with a 777 in the W13 timetable, and goes to a 747 in S14. They can always cut that back, and even adjust the gauge on BA48 down from a 747 if necessary.
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MSPNWA
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:28 am

Even with the better slot times and their smallest plane capable of flying it, I highly doubt this will be profitable for DL. This is still just SEA-LHR - not a huge market - with an already large and dominant BA flying the route. It also faces limited logical connecting opportunities based on geography to augment local traffic. You're facing an uphill battle to do more than dilute BA's margins. On the surface there's nothing that adds up to profits here.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting rwsea (Reply 12):
DL's situation at SEA is much different than what NW had at the time.

The only differences are some point of sale advantage in LHR with VS which is indeed big, and a smaller aircraft. It will do better than the last time 'round, but if AF skidaddled out of SEACDG (yes DL replaced them--still not a good sign), I'm not sure LHR will be much better.

Quoting Prost (Reply 15):
NW also had AS feed traffic.

  

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 18):
How will British Airways react?

BA can flow passengers over LHR for days--DL/VS need to get every last local passenger and then some; the beyond SEA possibilities are slim, even with AS.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:48 am

Quoting IL96M (Reply 20):
Uh... 15 minute turn-around?

Maybe (like other posters are saying) the aircraft from SEA-LHR goes somewhere else afterwards and a different aircraft arrives earlier to pick up the LHR-SEA

--

No big surprise, glad to see. Shows that DL is serious about SEA... they are starting to build a pretty nice operation there (thanks AS!)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
KirkSeattle
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 23):
Even with the better slot times and their smallest plane capable of flying it, I highly doubt this will be profitable for DL. This is still just SEA-LHR - not a huge market - with an already large and dominant BA flying the route. It also faces limited logical connecting opportunities based on geography to augment local traffic. You're facing an uphill battle to do more than dilute BA's margins. On the surface there's nothing that adds up to profits here.

I'm sure Delta has an army of folks to determine new routes that are profitable. True, BA dominates SEA-LHR but at the same time, new competition is healthy, don't you think? I mean from a profit side, perhaps Delta has identified a route that can succeed and is working to secure those business contracts that can add to profitability. As for their "smallest plane" , it's used on quite a few other routes as well. Delta isn't a B777 or B747 huge player so it's understandable what aircraft they've chosen. Yes, perhaps the A330, but availability could prevent that on the on-start.

Cheers,
KirkSeattle
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting Kirkseattle (Reply 26):
As for their "smallest plane" , it's used on quite a few other routes as well. Delta isn't a B777 or B747 huge player so it's understandable what aircraft they've chosen. Yes, perhaps the A330, but availability could prevent that on the on-start.

I didn't use the phrase smallest aircraft as a negative in this context. Smaller = fewer seats to sell at deep discounts on a new route. It's an advantage here, really.
 
KirkSeattle
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 28):
I didn't use the phrase smallest aircraft as a negative in this context. Smaller = fewer seats to sell at deep discounts on a new route. It's an advantage here, really.

Hey buddy, I wasn't quoting you and your use of "smaller plane". And, I agree with you it's a perfect plane to start the route.

Regards,
KirkSeattle
 
baw716
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:46 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 23):
Even with the better slot times and their smallest plane capable of flying it, I highly doubt this will be profitable for DL. This is still just SEA-LHR - not a huge market - with an already large and dominant BA flying the route. It also faces limited logical connecting opportunities based on geography to augment local traffic. You're facing an uphill battle to do more than dilute BA's margins. On the surface there's nothing that adds up to profits here.

REALLY? By what measure?

LHR is SEAs number one international route by a large percentage over the next route. BA fills two 747s a day in the summer and runs one in the winter...and it appears that they are going with a 777 in addition to the daily 747 in the winter...and BA is not dumb. They make money on this route.

One tends to forget also that Seattle is home to..Microsoft, Amazon.com, Starbucks, to name a few global giants...and these guys travel...

As to what BA will do? With their improved onboard product, I would expect them to toss a 77W on the route in place of the 744 they have now. They could place a 787 on the route, but candidly, I think the 788 is too small for BA in this market...the 77W/772 combination on the route would be a winner, since a good number of their existing 772s are already converted into their new product...

Where DL will do well on this route is the Business Class market; where their seat product is as good as BAs if not a bit better...and the 763 in a 210 seat configuration is pretty low density and can easily do SEA-LHR. It also fits into DLs 763 MX rotation as some of this work is done in the hanger in Seattle.

Time will tell...

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
AS737MAX
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:59 am

Quoting baw716 (Reply 30):
788 is too small for BA in this market

How about the BA 787 LHR-PDX!
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baw716
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:06 am

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 31):
How about the BA 787 LHR-PDX!

That would work well for the 788....

While it would rob passengers from the Seattle flight...easily dealt with by managing capacity, the upside of that would be that DL would have a serious fight on its hands with the beyond London traffic. Now, they would have a choice. DL to AMS, connecting to everywhere OR BA via London with most everything now in T5...on a 788? That would be an interesting situation...and PDX has a little used but well built FIS facility that can handle the load.

A good idea...

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
jtl11968
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting cokepopper (Thread starter):
Outgoing flight 37 departs Seattle-Tacoma International Airport at 1840 and arrives at LHR at 1205 the following day.

I always believed eastbound flights had even numbers and odd numbered flights were used on westbound flights. For example DL10 is ATL-LHR but DL2 is LHR-JFK.

How does Delta define odd/even flight numbers, or does a standard not exist?
 
Prost
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:25 am

Heck, some flights on DL are the same number. Last winter I did SLC-SEA-SLC and it was one flight number.
 
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pilotanthony
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:12 pm

i flew this route back in 2008/2009 LHR-SEA SEA-LHR with Northwest A330-200
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AA94
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting IL96M (Reply 20):
Uh... 15 minute turn-around?

I assume it'll be something like their MAD utilization ...

The aircraft that operates ATL-MAD as DL108 returns to JFK as DL127.

The aircraft that operates JFK-MAD as DL126 returns to ATL as DL109.
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roseflyer
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting baw716 (Reply 30):
LHR is SEAs number one international route by a large percentage over the next route.

It is not when you look at actual capacity. YVR is the biggest (no surprise there), followed by NRT and ICN. LHR ranks similar to AMS with year round 7-14 weekly service. However, I’m not sure about the O/D numbers, although NRT has over 100,000 passengers more than LHR and YVR is double the capacity. NRT, ICN and AMS are all bigger connecting hubs.

With that said, I think DL can increase demand and make the route work. An additional competitor will grow the market. I don’t doubt there is enough O/D to make the route work.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
blrsea
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:08 pm

BA also provides onward connection to other countries through LHR, like India and Africa, which DL would find hard to match. But the LHR-SEA flights have always been full whenever I have taken it on SEA-LHR-BLR on BA.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 34):
Heck, some flights on DL are the same number. Last winter I did SLC-SEA-SLC and it was one flight number

Delta loves to do with SLC flights alot. They fly SLC-xyz-SLC and they keep the same flight numbers both ways.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 36):
However, I’m not sure about the O/D numbers, although NRT has over 100,000 passengers more than LHR and YVR is double the capacity. NRT, ICN and AMS are all bigger connecting hubs.

Seoul is now the largest international O&D market from SEA. London is 2nd. Both have upwards of 170 daily O&D passengers each way. Tokyo is around 150 a day and declining steadily... London hasn't done so well either, having lost quite a bit in O&D over the last decade or so.

Jeremy
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
but if AF skidaddled out of SEACDG (yes DL replaced them--still not a good sign), I'm not sure LHR will be much better.

What makes you say that? AF and DL made a decision that DL metal would fly the joint venture route. Others have stated that SEA-CDG did very well for AF. I draw no conclusions on the fact that DL metal is now flying the route. If it did poorly than the AF/DL joint venture would have completely canned it.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:19 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 40):
What makes you say that? AF and DL made a decision that DL metal would fly the joint venture route. Others have stated that SEA-CDG did very well for AF. I draw no conclusions on the fact that DL metal is now flying the route. If it did poorly than the AF/DL joint venture would have completely canned it.

   I'm not saying I'm 100% sure he's wrong, but he doesn't sound like he has a good understanding of how the JV works. DL's 767 costs are lower than AF's A330s which make for better performance (maybe the difference between a loss and profit) which is why you see a bunch of DL 767s on random routes to and from CDG and AMS.

Conversely, AF's A380's costs are better than what DL can offer so you see them on high density routes like JFK-CDG. With the JV, it's essentially like DL deploying A380s or AF deploying 767s. They share costs/profits so on the JV routes, they are basically one airline. DL replacing AF on SEA-CDG is about the same as DL downgrading a flight from a 330 to a 767.

If I got any of that wrong, please, someone correct me. I'm not a JV wizard
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
but if AF skidaddled out of SEACDG (yes DL replaced them--still not a good sign), I'm not sure LHR will be much better.

AF handed SEA-CDG over to DL in order to take advantage of DL's economies of scale in SEA which have become more and more attractive as DL continues to grow.

The joint venture results in revenue sharing on transatlantic routes. If SEA-CDG was a poor performer, it would have been canned.

Keep in mind that while AF used to reduce frequency on the route to 4x and 5x weekly during the winter, DL has only reduced it down to 6x weekly.

I think SEA-LHR on DL will do fine.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:10 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
If I got any of that wrong, please, someone correct me. I'm not a JV wizard

In this thread from 2011, how routes are split up between DL and AF is explained from reply 98:

DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012 (by jetjack74 Nov 4 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 98):
as AF adds larger A380's to the mix, due to the JV agreement with the pilots which is based on equivalent air seat kilometers (EASK).. AF will give more routes to DL to maintain the required balance between the pilot groups.

This keeps one group from being pitted against the other. Currently the EASK is about one percent out of compliance range toward the AF/AZ side, so look for more transfers to DL in the future.
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:42 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 43):

Exactly, forgot to mention that important concept (EASK.) I was talking more about aircraft placement and costs, so having a AF 330 turn into a DL 767 doesn't mean a route is doing poorly
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:52 am

Quoting BA (Reply 42):
AF handed SEA-CDG over to DL in order to take advantage of DL's economies of scale in SEA which have become more and more attractive as DL continues to grow.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
he doesn't sound like he has a good understanding of how the JV works.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 40):
Others have stated that SEA-CDG did very well for AF

I'm well aware how JVs work. I said AF dropping it wasn't a *good sign*, not that it's the end of the route. SEA was very full when AF dropped it, and considering how much money AF is losing, they would be foolish to drop anything that was doing well. AF likely handed SEA (also ORD/PHL/EWR) over to DL as a cost minimization excercise since AF's smallest aircraft is much larger than the 767/757. The problem is that even in JVs, the connectivity is not as good as online connections, so in switching from AF to DL, perhaps the beyond SEA on DL metal improves, but at the expense of beyond CDG, and there's just no way that adds up--think of what DL (and to a much lesser extent AS) can offer beyond SEA, vs what AF can offer beyond CDG. For whatever reason DL-AF have a much tougher time flowing traffic than DL-KL--see the two daily 330s to AMS doing just fine.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 43):
AF will give more routes to DL to maintain the required balance between the pilot groups.

AF is still going to shift its worst performers first, either over to DL or off into the sunset.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jetlanta
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:07 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
I'm well aware how JVs work. I said AF dropping it wasn't a *good sign*, not that it's the end of the route. SEA was very full when AF dropped it, and considering how much money AF is losing, they would be foolish to drop anything that was doing well. AF likely handed SEA (also ORD/PHL/EWR) over to DL as a cost minimization excercise since AF's smallest aircraft is much larger than the 767/757. The problem is that even in JVs, the connectivity is not as good as online connections, so in switching from AF to DL, perhaps the beyond SEA on DL metal improves, but at the expense of beyond CDG, and there's just no way that adds up--think of what DL (and to a much lesser extent AS) can offer beyond SEA, vs what AF can offer beyond CDG. For whatever reason DL-AF have a much tougher time flowing traffic than DL-KL--see the two daily 330s to AMS doing just fine.

Mav, I'm not sure you really understand how this JV works. Each carrier has to provide a set share of the capacity. There are lots of reasons why Delta would operate this route, including schedule optimization. If Delta flies this route, AF has to fly something for Delta in exchange. You just can't read anything about performance into it. That isn't to say that Delta can't operate it more profitably, in fact the entire point of Delta flying it may just be that. But it doesn't mean that AF was performing poorly.
 
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
I'm well aware how JVs work
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
AF is still going to shift its worst performers first, either over to DL or off into the sunset.

Sorry Maverick, I normally agree with a lot of what you write, but these statements are pretty autonymous - they are revnue neutral so it doesn't matter whether DL fly CDGSEA and AF CDGJFK, they both get their share of the pie.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:34 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
For whatever reason DL-AF have a much tougher time flowing traffic than DL-KL--see the two daily 330s to AMS doing just fine.

This is an inheritance from the extremely tightly linked and mature NW-KL partnership dating back to 1989.

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While CDG is a much bigger O&D market than AMS, AMS has always been an extremely important European airport for connections.
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RE: Delta SEA-LHR Info Released

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 38):
Delta loves to do with SLC flights alot. They fly SLC-xyz-SLC and they keep the same flight numbers both ways.

DL has been doing that for many years and not just out of SLC.........we used to have an ORD-RDU-GSO-RDU-ORD flight (DC-9) when that was the only way you could get to either RDU or GSO on DL.
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