cuban8
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Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:07 am

According to Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet, a Ryanair flight which was supposed to take place yesterday evening between Treviso (Italy) and Stockholm Skavsta (Sweden) got cancelled due to bad weather over the departure airport.

Passengers were not given any alternative for hotel, food or any other transportation and therefore spent the night at the airport. The only available information to the passengers is that Ryanair can not find an aircraft in Italy until 10 days later. If any improvement, they would get back to the passengers.

Nowadays, nobody is really surprised about this news when it comes to Ryanair. We also know that you get what you pay for. Still I think these events keeps getting worse and worse and that nobody really cares. Bad weather can not be blamed on any company, but 10 days for a return flight with no other options? What are your thoughts?

Article only in Swedish:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article17190320.ab
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Cipango
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:26 am

I thought Ryanair got a slap on the wrist recently and had to apologise after the treatment of their passengers during the Volcanic Ash problem.

They now have to display clearly on their website the EU regulations of a delayed flights etc.

Surely it would be cheaper for FR to pay for their passengers to fly an alternative airline rather than face the risk of having to pay Hotel & Food for 10 days?
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acelanzarote
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:27 am

Recently when the French ATC where on strike Ryanair cancelled the weekly ACE-BOH flight...no idea where the pass went on either sector as I suspect the following weeks flight was already fairly full. I guess its the risk you take.
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shufflemoomin
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting cuban8 (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

Ryanair provide no customer service, they have no interest in doing so. They simply don't care about passengers and pull this sort of stunt way more regularly than any other airline. People still choose to take the gamble and fly with them and sometimes this happens. It shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:33 am

I am not a firend of the high EU compensations, but it isa the duty of a carrier to fill the contract and that is, getting tha pax from A to B in due time. Which means they have to book them on other carriers and if necessary from VCE on LH.

I would not wait 10 days, buying a ticket on LH or others is more economical anyhow. I could get that money back, however, the problem is, does FR has a legal adress in germany ? I think not. Not sure if they could be sued here but in case they can, this would be a clear winner for the passengers and if FR does not pay, , well, they fly their assets in and out on a daily basis and a bailliff could disrupt that.
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richardw
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:19 pm

With reference to http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...rv.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML

Article 5 refers to article 8 and says

"... passengers shall be offered the choice between:
(a)...
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity"

So looks like the passengers have a good claim against ryanair and there's the http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/jud...ascivil/html/sc_information_en.htm to help them do it

Some times you just gotta love the EU.

[Edited 2013-07-25 06:21:43]
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting richardw (Reply 5):
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity

The problem, of course, if that the passengers "final destination" is NYO, not ARN. If FR were to re-book the passengers on LH (yeah, like that's happening) then they would be providing a service that they had not contracted to provide, and therefore had no legal obligation to do so.

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AeroWesty
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:33 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Thread starter):
Bad weather can not be blamed on any company, but 10 days for a return flight with no other options? What are your thoughts?

Ryanair is collecting millions in EU 261 levys. Where is all that money going, if not to pay for what they're responsible for under current legislation?

http://www.ryanair.com/en/news/ryana...-50-euro-following-eu-court-ruling
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sccutler
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:58 pm

This describes what I have had happen to me three (3) times on AA, though not ten days (they never did admit to when they might be able to get me home).

Once, at SFO, when they suggested they *might* be able to accommodate my family and me in "three or four days" after a flight cancellation, and that "there are no other flights on other carriers available." I found seats on a UAL flight the next day, and AA (grudgingly) paid for them - but I had to find them!

Another time, at SNA, they cancelled flight to DFW and did nothing (I mean, nothing at all) to accommodate the bunch of pax whose plans were thus disrupted - quick action would have allowed for many (including us) to be re-routed via LAX, but the agents on the ground at SNA could not be bothered. I ended up having to buy $1200 of America West walk-up fare to get home.

Then, AA canceled a flight from SHV to DFW, stranding three clients and me there; cancellation was for "weather," but the weather was not cancellation-worthy. They said their flights were all booked up for five days. We ended up renting a Hyundai and driving to DFW.

Common theme: canceled flights, and minimal concern for the passengers' issues.

Fair's fair, I have also seen AA step right up in irregular ops circumstances, too. All depends (it appears) upon whom you encounter on a particular day.
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LH526
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:04 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
The problem, of course, if that the passengers "final destination" is NYO, not ARN. If FR were to re-book the passengers on LH (yeah, like that's happening) then they would be providing a service that they had not contracted to provide, and therefore had no legal obligation to do so.

Why not? In that case a bus-shuttle ordered and paid for by FR has to wait for the pax in ARN for the onward journey to NYO!
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richardw
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
... the passengers "final destination" is NYO, not ARN. If FR were to re-book the passengers on LH..... then they would be providing a service that they had not contracted to provide, and therefore had no legal obligation to do so.

The regulation clearly states 'comparable transport conditions' some may say a flight to ARN and road transport to NYO, could be reasonably 'comparable conditions'.

Their legal obligation is to get them to NYO and that is what they must do.

[Edited 2013-07-25 07:19:01]

[Edited 2013-07-25 07:23:47]
 
RussianJet
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Ryanair is collecting millions in EU 261 levys. Where is all that money going, if not to pay for what they're responsible for under current legislation?

  
While I'm generally an FR supporter, this situation is not really acceptable. Routinely collecting levys should ensure that passengers are accommodated in situations like these, and clearly ten days is not reasonable. Neither is a default situation of having people shell out for hotels and the like, to then 'claim back'. I'd also be interested to know whether their hard-sold travel insurance would cover such instances.
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richardw
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
I'd also be interested to know whether their hard-sold travel insurance would cover such instances.

The small print of some policies may sort of say 'excluding obligations that an airline is responsibly for with regard to EU Reg EC 261/2004'
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:39 pm

What happens when weather diversions happen with Ryanair ? Do they fly to the nearest airport with acceptable weather or do they go to the cheapest in the middle of nowhere with grass strip one ? Then do they get you to the destination by road ?
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b777erj145
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:11 pm

I think you guys can help me over this. If the flight was already at Treviso why can't it leave for Stockholm when the weather was over or next day? Am I missing something?
 
RussianJet
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting b777erj145 (Reply 14):
If the flight was already at Treviso why can't it leave for Stockholm when the weather was over or next day? Am I missing something?

Yes, you are. You're missing the fact that the aircraft already has a schedule for the next day, and can't simply bin that off to fly out to rescue pax from one cancelled flight, playing constant catch up with its planned movements.
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LJ
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Yes, you are. You're missing the fact that the aircraft already has a schedule for the next day, and can't simply bin that off to fly out to rescue pax from one cancelled flight, playing constant catch up with its planned movements.

However, that why some airlines charter a relief airplane or use a spare (which an airline like FR must surely have). I know, it's the busiest period, but if a normal charter airline can get a plane, so can FR. It's a matter of how much you value your customers and what the possibility is that they're going to sue you over EU 261. The only problem I see is that this behaviour by FR will result in more anti-airline measures which impact other airlines as well.

BTW KL have a few MD11s left which don't do anything, maybe they can help?
 
gazzadon
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 16):

BA and Air Lingus use Titan Airways for help plus so does other airlines. If they got a spare plane it can be staffed and ready within a hour. Why dont they use them.
 
BA777
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:05 pm

Price. I bet it isn't cheap! FR do have spares but they often get used up anyway, given that doing 1600 flights a day with 300+ aircraft is never going to run 100% perfectly.
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Yes, you are. You're missing the fact that the aircraft already has a schedule for the next day, and can't simply bin that off to fly out to rescue pax from one cancelled flight, playing constant catch up with its planned movements.

Yes, but the whole fleet is on the ground during the night, downtimes vary between 6 and 9 hours in general. So it shouldn't be impossible to find an aircraft at one of their many bases, operate a positioning flight to TSF in the late evening/early night, operate TSF-NYO during the night, and finally another positioning flight to the base were the aircraft came from and just in time for it's first scheduled flight of the day.
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flyingbird
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
The problem, of course, if that the passengers "final destination" is NYO, not ARN.

Final destination according to Ryanair is STOCKHOLM (yes, Ryanair refers to NYO as Stockholm). So if pax are sent to NYO or ARN, makes no big difference in this case, as both are "Stockholm".
 
debonair
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Thread starter):
The only available information to the passengers is that Ryanair can not find an aircraft in Italy until 10 days later. If any improvement, they would get back to the passengers.

I think this is a miscommunication...

Ryanair is tried to find an alternative a/c (which obviously failed) and therefore canceled the flight.
In such case FR policy is offering free re-booking to the NEXT AVAILABLE FLIGHT, which seems to be in 10 days.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:28 am

...well, that would be unacceptable even if FR would accept the hotel costs and pay a daily allowance.

The law says that the carroier is obliged to carry the passengers to their destination in due time. Due time is one or two days and even than passengers have the right to be compesated on top of hotel and refreshment expenses.

IMHO it mwould be no big problem to find space on flights between VCE or MIL and STO on other carriers and have them all at their destination a day later.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:40 am

Quoting flyingbird (Reply 20):
Final destination according to Ryanair is STOCKHOLM

They market the destination as Stockholm, but their legal obligation is still to get you to NYO.

That said...

Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
Why not? In that case a bus-shuttle ordered and paid for by FR has to wait for the pax in ARN for the onward journey to NYO!

...this had completely slipped my mind. You are, of course, correct!
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richardw
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:37 am

Quoting debonair (Reply 21):
FR policy is offering free re-booking to the NEXT AVAILABLE FLIGHT,

FR has to comply with EU Regulation EC261/2004 with regards to its obligations to passengers, its own policies can't over rule this. Passengers must be re-routed at the earliest opportunity, not the next available ryanair operated flight.
 
LJ
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:28 am

Quoting debonair (Reply 21):

Ryanair is tried to find an alternative a/c (which obviously failed) and therefore canceled the flight.
In such case FR policy is offering free re-booking to the NEXT AVAILABLE FLIGHT, which seems to be in 10 days.

If FR needs 10 days (and they can prove that there is really no alternative to this) then they would have to look at other mode of transport which is quicker (I reckon there must a bus available in Italy which can drive from Trevisio to Stockholm in 10 days).

Finally, I hope that none of the passengers gets fired due to this incident. If I would return 10 days later and don't have holiday days left I would have serious problems with my employer.
 
pa747sp
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:57 am

Might not just be a matter of aircraft. They might have crewing issues.
Nothing seems as good since the VC10.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:30 am

FR must send this passengers back home within a reasonable time. 10 days is anything but not reaqsonable. Even a bus, which would take may be 3 days is not reasonable. The passengers have pruchased airline tickets. Not a bus ride.

Getting 180 pax switched on various scheduled flights to STO from VCE is possible within a day. May be not on N/S services but through connections any time.

BTW, this is nothing new, even in the 60s and 70s carriers obliged to that responsibility.
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aerdingus
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 2):
Recently when the French ATC where on strike Ryanair cancelled the weekly ACE-BOH flight...no idea where the pass went on either sector as I suspect the following weeks flight was already fairly full. I guess its the risk you take.

I reckon with such a long flight the crew went out of hours waiting on slots. I flew 3 days that week, & was delayed 2+ hrs on each way of each flight because of slot allocation. Not enough for me to be out of hours unfortunately...  
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sebolino
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:34 pm

I flew with Ryanair for the first time last week to London with my family.
Well, I won't do it again. The simple fact that you have to "fight" for seats is incredible. You can really feel in the plane that it would be prefered that the passenger pay and don't enter the plane, it's just too annoying to have people to take care of ...  
 
adriaticflight
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:57 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 29):
I flew with Ryanair for the first time last week to London with my family.
Well, I won't do it again

Shame. Ryanair get my business at least monthly. And they provide a great service given their size. This all sounds like anti-Ryanair propaganda gone made
 
ltbewr
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:58 pm

I could understand a 48 hour delay, but 10 days is unacceptable and against the spirit of the EU rules. At the least, they should bus the stranded pax to the next largest city they serve and put them on available seats to flights or their metal that will get them close to their destination and bus them from there. This is a problem for budget airlines like FR, they don't have agreements with other airlines to be able to transfer pax to.
As my father told the UA check in at PDX during the ATC firings here in the USA over 30 years ago - you got me here, you get me back. He showed some flexibility and I had to pick them up from LGA and not EWR. Same here, both the airline and pax show some flexibility and maybe you can work out something reasonable. Problem with FR is that they would probably charge a fee for each stage of the arrangements to the pax. I bet those stranded pax will think twice about flying FR again.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 29):
Well, I won't do it again. The simple fact that you have to "fight" for seats is incredible

There's no real 'fighting' - everyone has a seat. Personally I don't really care where I sit if the price is right.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 29):
first time last week to London with my family.

There's your problem. It's fine if you're flying alone, and don't care where you sit (like me), but I do appreciate that if you don't pay for priority then it poses problems with seating families together. I think that on the whole though, FAs will usually try to accommodate that where possible by moving people if necessary, particularly if you have very young children.

Quoting LJ (Reply 16):
However, that why some airlines charter a relief airplane or use a spare (which an airline like FR must surely have).

During the peak season, Ryanair tend not to have 'spare places' around. Their whole business model dictates that when the market is there, airframes are utilised to the max.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 19):
Yes, but the whole fleet is on the ground during the night, downtimes vary between 6 and 9 hours in general. So it shouldn't be impossible to find an aircraft at one of their many bases, operate a positioning flight to TSF in the late evening/early night, operate TSF-NYO during the night, and finally another positioning flight to the base were the aircraft came from and just in time for it's first scheduled flight of the day.

Possibly, but I couldn't comment on what night restrictions there might be, or any other limiting operational factors on such plans,
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sebolino
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 32):
Quoting sebolino (Reply 29):
Well, I won't do it again. The simple fact that you have to "fight" for seats is incredible

There's no real 'fighting' - everyone has a seat. Personally I don't really care where I sit if the price is right.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 29):
first time last week to London with my family.

There's your problem. It's fine if you're flying alone, and don't care where you sit (like me), but I do appreciate that if you don't pay for priority then it poses problems with seating families together. I think that on the whole though, FAs will usually try to accommodate that where possible by moving people if necessary, particularly if you have very young children.

Yes that's the point. At the gate, you can see (and feel) people trying to enter before the others to have a seats next to one another for their kids.
If you fly alone, there's no problem with the seats. However, even without seat reservation, they could attribute seats at the registration like any other airline.

The room is very small, ok that's fair for a low cost airline, but they don't even provide a net on the back of seats to put your stuff in ... So the floor is covered with objects that flies when the breaking is too strong  
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 32):
There's no real 'fighting' - everyone has a seat. Personally I don't really care where I sit if the price is right.

For me, what defines "good service" isn't pretty F/A's or good food or whether I get an assigned seat. It's how the company handles a screw-up.

WN handles screw-ups very well. UA does not. This is why I don't fly UA and also why I will *NEVER* fly FR no matter how big the price difference.

I'm paying money to get to my destination, not placing a bet that I might get to my destination.
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RussianJet
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 33):
If you fly alone, there's no problem with the seats.

I usually wait until last and take what's left - I see no point in joining the scrum and wasting time standing in a queue.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):

For me, what defines "good service" isn't pretty F/A's or good food or whether I get an assigned seat. It's how the company handles a screw-up.

I can understand that. i guess for me the only defining factor with FR is whether the price is right. I know that they have a very low rate of such delays, punctuality is good, and in literally hundreds of sectors I only encountered one serious delay (16 hours). But I'll be honest, I always have a back-up plan in mind - including, if necessary, plenty of money stashed to buy another ticket home if push came to shove and I need to get home in a hurry.
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AWACSooner
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RE: Ryanair Leaves Pax Behind For 10 Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:44 pm

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 30):
This all sounds like anti-Ryanair propaganda gone made

Considering their CEO has done some questionable things in the past...and their style of customer service is borderline unethical at worst, I don't think so.

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