LAXintl
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Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:57 pm

With weak sales, Airbus says is seeks to repositioning the A380 from a luxury flagship in the eyes of airlines to a high-density workhorse.

Airbus has begun pitching the aircraft in configurations as high as 558 passengers, and also can offer an additional 30 seats on top of that by introducing 11-seat abreast configuration.

Airbus is telling prospective buyers the denser layouts that would cut unit costs and lift margins, with such configurations working well in markets like intra-Asian routes, or trips between the Middle East and Indian subcontinent.


Great idea if you ask me. The A380 needs to viewed more as a general purpose "airbus" not a one off niche queen of the fleet toy for airlines.


Story:
Airbus Pushes Higher-Density A380 to Counter Luxury Image
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-as-luxury-image-blunts-sales.html

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roseflyer
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airbus is telling prospective buyers the denser layouts that would cut unit costs and lift margins, with such configurations working well in markets like intra-Asian routes, or trips between the Middle East and Indian subcontinent.

How close is India to opening up operations to allowing the A380?
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airbus has begun pitching the aircraft in configurations as high as 558 passengers, and also can offer an additional 30 seats on top of that by introducing 11-seat abreast configuration.

Airbus made optimizations to the cabin and now uses "slimline" seats which increases the seat count from 525 to 558. And 11-abreast should increase it further to 588 seats.

We had a similar thread last month:

Airbus Revises A380 Layout (by KarelXWB Jun 6 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Here is the seat map again:

http://oi41.tinypic.com/10ihqms.jpg

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Great idea if you ask me.

Well, the trend of pushing more seats into the aircraft has now reached the A380 too.

[Edited 2013-07-25 10:35:11]
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
We had a similar thread last month:

We did. And frankly this seems to be a re-hash.

What I find curious is that Airbus don't force the airlines to offer configurations from 407 to 525.

And the comments about EK backing away from the 2-class A380 - I'm not convinced they're true. Last year Tim Clark said the delay was at the request of Airbus.

It's interesting that despite the "stupendous" CASM of 11-across, EK still think 10-across is a better solution for them.
I don't think that the biggest user's ambition is to walk away from the luxury image   

"Short and patchy" seems an interesting representation of a backlog which (including Dorics 20 and LH's 2) is the equivalent of 6 years production at what seems to be the target rate of 30 per year.

What does that make the A330's 2 1/2 year backlog? Or the 777's 3 1/2 year?

Either way, I suppose it doesn't hurt for Airbus to emphasize the flexibility of the platform

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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
With weak sales, Airbus says is seeks to repositioning the A380 from a luxury flagship in the eyes of airlines to a high-density workhorse.

I think this kind of needed to happen at some point. Yeah the luxury status is cool and has clearly sold some planes, but luxury also comes with the idea of high cost, high maintenance, and high depreciation. The workhouse status should sell some airframes. But now the problem becomes who needs an airplane with 558 seats. I can't imagine there are a ton of routes that can sustain that amount of seats, especially on a daily basis.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4):
But now the problem becomes who needs an airplane with 558 seats.

Those extra seats are coming almost "free", no problem if you can't fill them but more revenue if you can.

[Edited 2013-07-25 11:12:09]
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:17 pm

If they want to sell the A380 as a high density aircraft, I think they should offer the lower deck on a 10 abreast config and the upper with a premium economy and a microscopic 18 to 24 business class, good for 600 to 630 pax.

A lot of people I know like the lower deck of the a380 not because the seats are big (they are not) but the Airplane doesnt feel claustrophobic, and because of the lower noise at cruise. A long flight on a Economy plus on the top deck at 30% premium I am sure will sell, maybe not at the beggining but later on people will think do I fly on a cramped a330 /777 or I pay a little more to fly more comfortable?

Then again I am just thinking people are not cheapos...and reality may prove me wrong...

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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:17 pm

To 11 abreast I say no. Clearly in that configuration they still have a deck almost entirely composed of first and business seats, that is pretty luxurious ! Have 6-8 F, 20-30 J (or 50 J no F), then you can have more than 600 Y without compromising on comfort.

[Edited 2013-07-25 12:18:57]
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
Those extra seats are coming almost "free", no problem if you can't fill them but more revenue if you can.

While I do understand that, in the current configuration there aren't a whole lot of routes where they can deploy the aircraft. I know EK makes it work (which blows my mind) along with LH and AF, but how many long haul routes really need 450 seats a day. Airlines will get them and view those seats as free, but they will probably end up discounting all the seats to fill the airplane. Not to mention if you are only filling those last 50 seats occasionally you are wasting money because of the additional F/A.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:24 pm

11Y is inevitable. Like the 747 in the early 1970s (which was 9Y at first), the A380 is currently a novelty that can draw a revenue premium. That won't last long, and when it ends, A380s will need to be 11Y in order to deal with internal competition from the A350-1000 and external competition from the 777-9X.
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:51 pm

I don't get it, why not just do ~650 Y seats, 325 upper and 325 lower, and create economy premium leg room and pitch and advertise the heck out of it. It would be the best economy product on the market. While everyone else is cramming seats in as tight as they get you'de be able to offer something unrivaled in terms of space and pitch for an Economy class. And at peak demand if the advertising is right and you can clearly show passengers that they are paying economy fares for something WAY better than any other airline, I would seriously not doubt that they could fill up a 380 daily out of most of the major destinations. And sure they might not have rights to the sub continent but they still have to transport the pax USA-DXB or EU-DXB, and that's the longer of the legs, that's the sector that counts.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:53 pm

When will we have a 2-class A380? IMHO, EK should go for a reduced premium (say 4 to 6 F, say 50J, and the rest Y) for their next A380. I've read just enough about a proposed new 777 configuration for EK with 4F, reduced J (but how many?) and the space utilized for Y. That makes sense IMHO. Just as a reduced premium A380 would make sense for them.

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 1):
How close is India to opening up operations to allowing the A380?

   They are not opening up airports to the A380 despite several being A380 ready or so close that the gates would be fixed before service would start. But India is not ready for the competition. They like the clause in their bilaterals "Nothing larger than a 747 or 400 seats."

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
What does that make the A330's 2 1/2 year backlog? Or the 777's 3 1/2 year?

6 years is too long of a backlog for the A380. They must accelerate production to move units. For the A330, short leads times have helped sell planes. The same was true on the 777 (Boeing almost had to slow the line.) As to names, how about "Itchy and Scratchy?"  
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 8):
but how many long haul routes really need 450 seats a day.

How much hubbing? LH, AF, KE, and EK/FZ do not plan to fill the planes on O&D. They plan to connect passengers. EK's goal is to feed a flight with ten passengers each from 20 cities.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
the A380 is currently a novelty that can draw a revenue premium. That won't last long, and when it ends, A380s will need to be 11Y in order to deal with internal competition from the A350-1000 and external competition from the 777-9X.

   First slimline seats... then 11 across.

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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 10):
I don't get it, why not just do ~650 Y seats

This is just a default configuration. If someone wants 650 seats, I'm sure they can have it.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:04 pm

Is this advertising really aimed at aircraft purchasers at airlines? I'd imagine if you were in the procurement department you'd be familiar with the capabilities of the A380 in different configurations.

[Edited 2013-07-25 12:04:50]
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
11Y is inevitable.

Maybe one day. But the planes currently flying are SO far away from their potential capacity at 10-abreast it just looks a long long way away to me. I know others will argue differently

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
When will we have a 2-class A380?

When Airbus finally get the headroom in cabin outfitting I hope.
For what its worth I predict we'll see 650 seat 2-class configs LONG before we see 11-abreast

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
6 years is too long of a backlog for the A380.

You and I agree on this too.   

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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Here is the seat map again:

J class seat pitch is completely unrealistic. Carriers have been moving away from 'angled-flat' seats for years.
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JAAlbert
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:29 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
11Y is inevitable.

Why shouldn't Airbus have a plane as uncomfortable as Boeing's 10 across 77W?

Honestly, I shudder at the thought of 11 across on an A-380. Can you imagine being stuck in that middle seat??
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Great idea if you ask me. The A380 needs to viewed more as a general purpose "airbus" not a one off niche queen of the fleet toy for airlines.

Meh.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
What I find curious is that Airbus don't force the airlines to offer configurations from 407 to 525.

Exactly. To me this is a bit of a nonsense article.

Quoting Prost (Reply 13):
I'd imagine if you were in the procurement department you'd be familiar with the capabilities of the A380 in different configurations.

My thoughts too.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 15):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Here is the seat map again:

J class seat pitch is completely unrealistic. Carriers have been moving away from 'angled-flat' seats for years.

Before anyone says anything, only AF and LH...those stalwarts of J class bleeding-edge comfort...so far have J seat pitches of 55 in. and 57-60 in. 'angled-flat' seats. The only other carriers with firm orders likely to use them are UN and BC, for a grand total of 39 frames out of 262. Maybe UU, if they take delivery  , for 2 more frames.

What we probably will see, are A388s with say 6-8F/40-50J/~530Y for ~575 pax, or 40J/~600Y for ~640 pax, before 11-abreast.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 17):
Before anyone says anything, only AF and LH...those stalwarts of J class bleeding-edge comfort...so far have J seat pitches of 55 in. and 57-60 in. 'angled-flat' seats.

They're also the two carriers operating the A380 beyond 500 seats.
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:41 pm

My mother is in her seventies, and even she notices the difference between the 'awful' ten across 777 and the 'much nicer' A380. The everyday passenger appreciates the experience.
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 19):
My mother is in her seventies, and even she notices the difference between the 'awful' ten across 777 and the 'much nicer' A380. The everyday passenger appreciates the experience.

The question isn't whether she notices, it's whether she'd pay 10%+ more for a ticket.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:54 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
11Y is inevitable.

  

I well remember 9 abreast 747s, 8 abreast DC-10/L-1011s, etc.

But as market realities dictated, so came the denser configs.

I think its very good Airbus trying to show another side of the A380 to the market as it can only help its sale case, and get airlines to think of the machine as a tool more than a VIP liner.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 17):
Meh.

Might not be sexy, but the game is based on dollar and cents.

The A380 needs to show it can do more and be that day to day workhorse earning its keep. Move beyond the flagship sales pitch.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 19):
The everyday passenger appreciates the experience.

Sure they appreciate it, but are they willing to pay extra for it?

At the end of the day, this is a commodity industry, and if the numbers pencil out better with tighter configuration, so it is.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 16):
Honestly, I shudder at the thought of 11 across on an A-380. Can you imagine being stuck in that middle seat??

If 11Y would be 3x5x3 I suppose it would be no different than Y in the old DC-10 and L-1011 or AA's "original" Y class in the 772 (2x5x2).
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:28 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 22):
If 11Y would be 3x5x3 I suppose it would be no different than Y in the old DC-10 and L-1011 or AA's "original" Y class in the 772 (2x5x2).

Exactly - awful configuration when the plane is full! Wasn't the DC-10 2-5-2?
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:37 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
EK still think 10-across is a better solution for them.

Payload and standardization is 2 reasons. Having *some* room for cargo left is likely another. That said, shouldn't be that long before they break into a new batch of A380 and open up the possiblity for a new interior configuration without making Airbus cry (and present a large bill for services). I imagine that the low price EK gets is dependant on minimal if any configuration changes within each order.
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:48 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
The A380 needs to show it can do more and be that day to day workhorse earning its keep. Move beyond the flagship sales pitch.

This sounds more like a last ditch effort than anything--why would carriers in this day and age look to buy a 'flagship', outside of a few obvious misfires? And why wouldn't those airlines have considered a more efficient layout anyway? Airlines are challenged finding large enough markets in the current relatively light layout, never mind something more dense.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
With weak sales, Airbus says is seeks to repositioning the A380 from a luxury flagship in the eyes of airlines to a high-density workhorse.

I think the key here is "weak sales". The 787 was marketed as a 'luxury flagship' but everyone and their mother knew the luxurious layouts were hogwash.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:26 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
I think the key here is "weak sales".

Have to agree - neither the A380 or the B748 are selling in any numbers worth talking about.

I think also that 'increasing engine power' comes into it. 'Big twins' are now close to being able to carry almost as many people as the jumbos can - offering big savings in terms of reduced engine maintenance costs etc., greater flexibility, and very possibly 'per passenger' fuel savings as well? I'm old enough to remember the days when any sort of 'longhaul' - even 'just' London-New York - almost always meant a 747?
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Might not be sexy, but the game is based on dollar and cents.

The A380 needs to show it can do more and be that day to day workhorse earning its keep. Move beyond the flagship sales pitch.

Yes I agree with you about the dollars, but this 'seat count game' has been going on at Airbus and Boeing for at least since the early 90s when the B747-400 rose to dominance, and Airbus introduced the A330/340. They both release completely unrealistic charts when they know carriers are likely to use more floor space on premium cabins.

It is not to be forgotten that carriers who do make J/F work, make a heck of a lot of money on it.

To me this is just a natural progression, nothing more, it is not Airbus "trying to reinvent their product marketing for more sales." Look at the B747-400 introduction, and when it was at its height in the world's fleets. Many carriers, like BA, had multiple configurations with varying F/J/Y capacities.

Furthermore, whenever a new widebody is introduced into a fleet, it is going on a "prestige" route. I wouldn't have expected AF to put the A380 on CDG-SXM and configure it for 650 pax for their first flight... Nor will BA put the A380 on PHX or BKK first.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:13 am

Here's my thoughts given BC taking delivery of 350-seat A380s-
1) try to figure out how to use the space better, if I were Airbus.
2) Talk to EK about downplaying its role (EK is seen as a luxurious airline in the mind of consumers)
3) try to sell more to BC (maybe) or other smaller airlines in the Asian rim

If airbus does this, maybe the 380 reputation would be changed a bit.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:14 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 15):
J class seat pitch is completely unrealistic. Carriers have been moving away from 'angled-flat' seats for years.

Agreed. The 525 3-class cabin configuration uses a more realistic J pitch, so if we remove the 8 extra J seats the total number should be 550 seats.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 27):
To me this is just a natural progression, nothing more, it is not Airbus "trying to reinvent their product marketing for more sales."

 checkmark 

[Edited 2013-07-26 00:18:14]
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 16):
Honestly, I shudder at the thought of 11 across on an A-380. Can you imagine being stuck in that middle seat??

In the middle seat you have 2 seats between you and the aisle, same as in many window seats.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 22):
If 11Y would be 3x5x3 I suppose it would be no different than Y in the old DC-10 and L-1011 or AA's "original" Y class in the 772 (2x5x2).

Exactly.

I'm not advocating 11, just want to note that it wouldn't be something unseen before or totally unbearable.
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:07 am

11 abreast?? That would put it on my no fly list :P
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):
Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 19):
My mother is in her seventies, and even she notices the difference between the 'awful' ten across 777 and the 'much nicer' A380. The everyday passenger appreciates the experience.

The question isn't whether she notices, it's whether she'd pay 10%+ more for a ticket.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 19):
The everyday passenger appreciates the experience.

Sure they appreciate it, but are they willing to pay extra for it?

But is this really true and necessary?
To me, it seems logical that it would be enough they book a ticket with the airlines operating the A380 - there is just no need to charge 10%+ more because of the very good economics of the 380. If the 380 draws a crowd of customers, everything is fine for the operating airline, no?
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:29 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airbus has begun pitching the aircraft in configurations as high as 558 passengers, and also can offer an additional 30 seats on top of that by introducing 11-seat abreast configuration.

Airbus is telling prospective buyers the denser layouts that would cut unit costs and lift margins, with such configurations working well in markets like intra-Asian routes, or trips between the Middle East and Indian subcontinent.

And that need to get pitched by Airbus ... the airlines can't work this out themselves?
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
Either way, I suppose it doesn't hurt for Airbus to emphasize the flexibility of the platform

That can never hurt. And if it creates new sales, it is only a good thing.  .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
Those extra seats are coming almost "free", no problem if you can't fill them but more revenue if you can.

Which is the concept behind the A380.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 14):
Maybe one day. But the planes currently flying are SO far away from their potential capacity at 10-abreast it just looks a long long way away to me.

Same here. The planes make money for their operators, even with these spacious seating layouts. There is much to be won there before you really need to go 11 abreast.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Might not be sexy, but the game is based on dollar and cents.

The A380 needs to show it can do more and be that day to day workhorse earning its keep.

   And I think it is perfectly capable in doing so.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 31):
11 abreast?? That would put it on my no fly list

At 11 abreast the A380 will still offer wider seats then the B777 (or the even the B777X, assuming they are in a 10 abreast configuration). I guess these planes are (or will be) on your no fly-list as well?  

[Edited 2013-07-26 02:35:33]
 
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:27 am

Removing F/J seats to fit more Y seats in isn't going to make the aircraft more profitable. Yields are higher in F/J. For most airlines the the equation is 'what is the minimum number of Y seats / maximum number of J/F seats we can configure to return the best yield'. Y class pays the cost of operation. J/F makes the money. Filling an aircraft full of Y class pax is easy. Making a decent yield from them is much harder.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:46 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Airbus has begun pitching the aircraft in configurations as high as 558 passengers, and also can offer an additional 30 seats on top of that by introducing 11-seat abreast configuration.
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Great idea if you ask me. The A380 needs to viewed more as a general purpose "airbus" not a one off niche queen of the fleet toy for airlines.

How many routes would support a 558 seat aircraft year round that would justify the aircraft?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
What I find curious is that Airbus don't force the airlines to offer configurations from 407 to 525.

Airbus is not in a position to force anything on its customers. The need to respond to the market not force anything on it, or Boeing would just offer what the airlines are desiring.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
I think the key here is "weak sales". The 787 was marketed as a 'luxury flagship' but everyone and their mother knew the luxurious layouts were hogwash.

Excellent point.
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:15 pm

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 33):
And that need to get pitched by Airbus ... the airlines can't work this out themselves?

Smacks of desperation on Airbus part, trying to reinvent the wheel to get sales.

These layouts have been available all along and airlines have fitted them out subject to their requirements. If they had wanted to put more seats in they would have done.
 
lapper
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:20 pm

Surely the airlines know what the passenger certification is of the A380, it's up to them how they decide how to fit in what passengers they want to, not Airbus.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:24 pm

What I find amusing about this thread is that I would have titled it, 'Airbus to market the A380 for its flexibility' or somesuch. Others focus consistently on the negative.
come visit the south pacific
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 39):
I would have titled it, 'Airbus to market the A380 for its flexibility' or somesuch. Others focus consistently on the negative.

To be fair, motorhussy, they only sold nine of them last year, and none at all so far this year. Boeing are in similar case with the 748 (except for freighters).

You can be optimistic (and say that it's a temporary glitch); or pessimistic (and say that the age of the four-engine jumbo is over and done with). But what you can't say is that both the major firms have no problems with the apparently-collapsing market for their big fours?

[Edited 2013-07-26 06:51:54]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Unflug
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:57 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 40):
To be fair, motorhussy, they only sold nine of them last year, and none at all so far this year.

Assuming that the Doric MOU will not be firmed. I would not base my assumptions on that, if I wanted to be fair.
 
travelhound
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:20 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 37):
These layouts have been available all along and airlines have fitted them out subject to their requirements. If they had wanted to put more seats in they would have done.

It might be the case the higher density seating layouts now being proposed by Airbus only became viable with the introduction of the relatively new High Gross Weight variants.

So in real terms this might be a case of the A380 now being more capable of meeting different market segments rather than Airbus trying to flog a dead horse.
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 41):
Assuming that the Doric MOU will not be firmed.

I'm sure that Doric won't have to 'firm' them unless and until they've signed up lessees, Unflug. That's just 'Business - Lesson One'?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 24):
Payload and standardization is 2 reasons. Having *some* room for cargo left is likely another

That they want to differentiate their "luxury" A380's from their "cattle" 777's is clearly another  
Quoting brilondon (Reply 36):
Airbus is not in a position to force anything on its customers. The need to respond to the market not force anything on it,

And I don't see any customers asking for higher seating in 3-class - yet.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 37):
These layouts have been available all along and airlines have fitted them out subject to their requirements. If they had wanted to put more seats in they would have done.

Agree

Quoting Unflug (Reply 41):
Assuming that the Doric MOU will not be firmed. I would not base my assumptions on that, if I wanted to be fair.

don't worry. Just remember what a complete dick he's going to look when the orders become firm :

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
I'm sure that Doric won't have to 'firm' them unless and until they've signed up lessees

Just like any other lessor eh? LOL
 
Unflug
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
I'm sure that Doric won't have to 'firm' them unless and until they've signed up lessees, Unflug. That's just 'Business - Lesson One'?

I'm equally sure they haven't signed the MOU just for fun. Business lesson Two.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:55 pm

So much for all the talk from posters saying the A380 is a "prestige" aircraft.  

Airbus is (quite rightfully) doing the smart thing: Emphasize the plane as an efficient people hauler. Its obvious the other marketing gimmick was losing steam real quick.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
What I find curious is that Airbus don't force the airlines to offer configurations from 407 to 525.

That's a pretty laughable statement. "Force" your customers to operate in a way you want them to? I can only imagine the negotiations:

Airbus: thanks for buying this expensive aircraft. You are prohibited from operating it with less than 407 passengers.
Airline: Yeah, uh thanks. But GFY. I will offer a cabin configuration of 30 passengers if I feel like it. And I'll let those passengers use crayons on the walls to order drinks. What are you gonna do about it? It's my plane now.

Yeah...force them to do something....that will work.
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting Unflug (Reply 45):
I'm equally sure they haven't signed the MOU just for fun. Business lesson Two.

Slice it any way you want, it's basically an option, not a binding commitment.

Put it this way, Unflug. In the past six months or so, Boeing haven't sold any 748s (except maybe the odd freighter) and Airbus haven't sold any A380s.

Time will tell as to whether, in marketing terms, that's just a temporary 'trend,' or an enduring 'demand shift'?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 46):
That's a pretty laughable statement. "Force" your customers to operate in a way you want them to? I can only imagine the negotiations:

You'll have to explain why my comment is laughable when you clearly agree with it.
I think you lost something in the translation.

Airbus clearly don't, and can't, force their customers to do anything.
My curiosity comes from all the conversations about how "the A380 will have to pay its way by becoming a cattle car" which clearly fly against the desire of current operators to differentiate their A380 product - no-one is asking for 560-590 seat 3-class configurations that I'm aware of.

I completely get that Airbus can't force their customers to do anything. But d'you know what? neither can A-net posters.

Rgds
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Airbus Seeks To Counter Luxury Image Of A380

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
What I find curious is that Airbus don't force the airlines to offer configurations from 407 to 525.

I find that statement laughable, because of "what it states." I don't think I lost anything in translation unless you were being sarcastic!

You and I agree that the A380 is an efficient people hauler, but to "force" them to operate in the way you stated just won't work.

I think people are saying that the best way for the A380 to "pay its way" is that pressure will inevitably rise from very efficient twin widebodies, forcing the A380 to justify its existence by "cattling" up more passengers. Eventually, the market (777x, 787 and A350) will force the airlines to cram more seats into the A380 to justify any purchase for the aircraft.

But Tim Clark ain't changing anything, and no one else is either, so they are happy with how the plane performs. I think Airbus is getting unhappy with the trends they see for the aircraft, hence to push to larger capacities.