klmcedric
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KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:54 am

An article on luchtvaartnieuws.nl mentions this, but I can only read the title, the article is locked for non-members.

Any one here knows more about this?
 
tripple7
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:40 am

There are some rumours going around that KLM might start Bogota flights. Topic is also being discussed in the BeNeLux aviation #4 topic.

Apparently AF is doing very well on Bogota flights and would like to increase number of flights. I believe they are constrained by traffic rights which allow only 7 flights a week. Between NL and Columbia there are unused traffic rights. So KLM could offer the additional frequencies. However, if CDG-BOG is so successful, couldn't AF put larger equipment on the route than A340?
 
Summa767
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:50 am

Well, the article you mention, takes as source another published in the colombian press (in Spanish) where the AF-KL general manager to Colombia gives his thoughts:

http://www.portafolio.co/negocios/klm-busca-pista-colombia

It's rather vague as it only says: "igualmente, como parte de la estrategia de crecimiento, han pensado en traer nuevamente la aerolínea KLM.."

Basically, that they have thought about KLM service to Colombia. Incidentallly, it may not necessarily be BOG, but that other cities in the country are being considered as there are challenges in BOG for [for a plane other than the A340 currently used by AF] given the Colombia capital's 2600m elevation.

Some months ago, it was announced as a given that AF would increase capacity by switching the 270 seater A340 for a ~309 seater 3 class 772. That has not happened, but is still in a possibility according to the article, but using a different colombian city is apparently also being studied:

“Sin embargo, para traer un avión más grande existen algunas restricciones de peso y balance relacionadas con la altura de 2.600 metros sobre el nivel del mar de Bogotá, lo que implica una serie de medidas para una operación segura.“Esto nos ha hecho pensar en que sea una ciudad diferente a Bogotá la sede operaciones, pero todo está siendo estudiado por la casa matriz, buscando opciones para elegir el avión adecuado que supla la necesidad en el país o mirar opciones"

It must also be said AF's oncoming route CDG-PTY is also beneficial for the colombian market, as acknowledged by the AF-KL general manager for Colombia. Several colombian cities are well connected via Copa airlines to Panama, an so passengers will have the choice of connecting to AF in PTY as well as BOG.

My own opionion:
I think that a KLM operation to Colombia must be near. We have seen the group expanding in Latinamerica, and I am sure it will continue to do so. Colombia has 45 million inhabitants (compare with Panama's 3 million).
Operating a 777 out of BOG means restriction (at least in cargo, which would be important in this market), but it might be possible to see a triangular service to BOG via another colombian city (such as KL and IB currently do in Ecuador), Something like AMS-BOG-CTG-AMS or even dedidated to a new city (AMS-CLO-AMS or AMS-CTG-AMS), or even just a BOG with a stop in AUA, CUR or BON.
Of course, these restrictions will be a thing of the past with the 787s and A350s, but I believe something will happen much sooner than these new types are received.



Quoting tripple7 (Reply 1):
Apparently AF is doing very well on Bogota flights and would like to increase number of flights. I believe they are constrained by traffic rights which allow only 7 flights a week

That is the case, but a change in the bilateral would be easy to do. Colombia-Germany and Colombia-Spain and Colombia-UK have been revised as necessary. 14 weeklies are allowed in the case of UK and Germany. Something like 37 in the case of Spain.

Quoting tripple7 (Reply 1):
So KLM could offer the additional frequencies. However, if CDG-BOG is so successful, couldn't AF put larger equipment on the route than A340?

BOG's elevation presents challenges to many planes, more so to twins (777s would be the most likely candidate to replace the A340). Not sure about the 747, but this might be too big for the route and still face restriction in the cargo uplift at least.
747 Combi could be an interesting possibility for KL, but again, it all has to be studied taking into account the restrictions imposed by BOG's 2600 m elevation.




[Edited 2013-07-26 02:59:30]
 
Venezuela747
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:25 pm

Sorry to bring in my country into this, but how are CCS-CDG loads doing? Any chance KL does a AMS-CCS-BOG type flight like BA used to do back in the days? Surely the loads are there to sustain that.
ROLL TIDE!!!
 
Summa767
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:58 pm

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 3):
Sorry to bring in my country into this, but how are CCS-CDG loads doing? Any chance KL does a AMS-CCS-BOG type flight like BA used to do back in the days? Surely the loads are there to sustain that.

For what I understand, all Venezuela- Europe flights do very well.
So perhaps KL can return to CCS too, with or without an extension to BOG.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 2):
(AMS-CLO-AMS or AMS-CTG-AMS),

Not a chance of CTG. CLO and MDE, now maybe.
IMHO opinion, you might see the reverse of what is happening in PTY (daily KL and 3-4 weekly AF)......so daily AF and 3-4 weekly KL with AF (keeping the 340) concentrating on higher yields and KL packing the Y in and supplementing it with cargo.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 3):
Any chance KL does a AMS-CCS-BOG type flight like BA used to do back in the days? Surely the loads are there to sustain that.

This was a common practice in the 80s and 90s, Lufthansa did the same, but you won't see it happen today. That's what code share feeders and alliances are for, no need to fly your half empty A340 on a short haul flight. Some airlines still do this in the middle east, but that's because the taxes are so low and the fuel is almost free.

If KLM was able to sell tickets between these cities, that would bee an entirely different story. I observe that fares are incredibly high between South American cities, so they might make some nice money here.

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Coal
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:52 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 6):
This was a common practice in the 80s and 90s, Lufthansa did the same, but you won't see it happen today. That's what code share feeders and alliances are for, no need to fly your half empty A340 on a short haul flight. Some airlines still do this in the middle east, but that's because the taxes are so low and the fuel is almost free.

KL does it. AMS - SIN - DPS.

Cheers
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SCL767
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 6):
This was a common practice in the 80s and 90s, Lufthansa did the same, but you won't see it happen today. That's what code share feeders and alliances are for, no need to fly your half empty A340 on a short haul flight.

Really? LAN SCL-AKL-SYD and *SCL-MAD-FRA. Reason? Cargo...
*Operates with the 787-8 starting on 01OCT.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:25 pm

What a coincidence AF/KL announced new AF CDG-PTY to complement a daily KL AMS-PTY and now there are rumours same AF/KL will re-start AMS-BOG while there's an AF CDG-BOG already, and most interesting of all, is that both PTY and BOG aren't SkyTeam hubs.
For some including myself, and as pure speculation, talks about AF/KL flying KL AMS-BOG may be a way to entice AV to jump to Skyteam.
As of BOG runway altitude issues, What kind of aircraft does KL fly MEX-AMS or AF MEX-CDG non-stop? MEX has a similar altitude.
KL AMS-BOG-MDE-AMS routing may sound interesting but MDE is a hot-and-high airport, albeit with sizeable cargo movement to Europe demand.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
SCL767
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 9):
As of BOG runway altitude issues, What kind of aircraft does KL fly MEX-AMS or AF MEX-CDG non-stop?

Both carriers operate 747-400s into MEX.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 9):
What a coincidence AF/KL announced new AF CDG-PTY to complement a daily KL AMS-PTY and now there are rumours same AF/KL will re-start AMS-BOG while there's an AF CDG-BOG already, and most interesting of all, is that both PTY and BOG aren't SkyTeam hubs.

AF-KL is simply reinforcing their presence in Latin America and coexist at EZE, GIG, GRU, HAV, LIM, and soon PTY. KL will soon increase frequency on the AMS-UIO-GYE-AMS route to a daily service and AF is rumoured to be interested in launching CDG-UIO-GYE-CDG next year.
 
76er
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:19 am

BOG would make an ideal destination for the 744 Combi. The flowerroute is already in place with 6 weekly MD11F, and this would make up for MP's ever shrinking presence in the market.
 
Avianca
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RE: KLM To Start Bogota Flights?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:43 pm

Quoting 76er (Reply 11):
BOG would make an ideal destination for the 744 Combi. The flowerroute is already in place with 6 weekly MD11F, and this would make up for MP's ever shrinking presence in the market.

could not agree more, would be more than a perfect route for the combi.

regards
Avianca
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