oldeuropean
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Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:08 pm

And the saga goes on. "Smoke had been reported near an electrical compartment."

http://www.euronews.com/business-new...as-glitches-pile-up-on-boeing-jet/

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/201...vel-incident-sur-un-boeing-787.php

This incident already hapened on 21. July. Are there any further informations about this?

[Edited 2013-07-26 09:12:20]
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speedbored
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:30 pm

This has already been commented on in the ET 787 thread.

Another article in the chicago tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...ner-qatar-20130726,0,4293316.story

QR is quoted as saying:
"This is a minor issue for us, and not an incident, so we are not commenting,"
and Boeing is quoted as saying:
"We request that you channel all your enquiries to Qatar Airways."
So I doubt very much whether we're going to get any more information than "Smoke was seen somewhere near an electronics bay".

It is most likely, as QR says, something trivial. The fact that the aircraft has been grounded for 5 days now does not have to mean that it's something more serious - it could just be a lack of spare parts. But I can't help thinking that the fact that QR and Boeing are not saying what the "minor technical issue" was, is going to fuel a lot of speculation, both here and in the press.

Might be better for Boeing if they release some details.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 1):
Might be better for Boeing if they release some details.

Yes, because it seems that, just in the last 3-4 hours, this "news" is spreading in the media, worldwide.
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KC135R
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:37 pm

Not much information out there, but I found this interesting since there are claims that that aircraft was surrounded by fire trucks:

A fire-brigade supervisor in Doha said it did not have any record of an incident with an airport-related call last week.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...mliner-qatar-idUSL6N0FW2F120130726

Once again only time will tell, but I already fear the speculation in the meantime...
 
KC135R
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:41 pm

Slightly off topic, but Qatar might be having a hard time with 787s this week:

From a tweet by Matt Cawby:

"A7-BCE delivery delayed, got hung up on the air bridge while being pushed back unknown if damage occurred"
 
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speedbored
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 3):
A fire-brigade supervisor in Doha said it did not have any record of an incident with an airport-related call last week.

As I said in the ET 787 thread, that statement does not necessarily mean that the incident didn't occur. It could just be cleverly worded. The reported incident happened on Sunday, which is actually this week not last.
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 4):
A7-BCE delivery delayed, got hung up on the air bridge while being pushed back unknown if damage occurred

A7-BCE is now in the air, so it seems nothing serious happened.
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KC135R
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 5):
As I said in the ET 787 thread, that statement does not necessarily mean that the incident didn't occur. It could just be cleverly worded.

So for clarification purposes, you put forth this cleverly worded theory to imply what exactly?

Are you claiming that the Doha fire department is involved in some sort of cover up?
 
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speedbored
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:16 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 12):
So for clarification purposes, you put forth this cleverly worded theory to imply what exactly?

Are you claiming that the Doha fire department is involved in some sort of cover up?

I'm not claiming or implying anything but, as I said in the other thread, the fire department may just be deliberately avoiding confirming or denying anything.

I agree that, as you suggest, this statement was most likely made as a result of a specific question from Reuters regarding a reported issue with a Qatar 787 on Sunday. That is why I find it interesting that the fire department should choose to add the 'this week' qualifier to their statement, when it is clearly not required.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:46 pm

If Boeing is referring queries to QR, and QR isn't talking, and the fire brigade has no info, it would seem to me to be an internal QR thing. Is QR suddenly changing its approach to 787 issues and keeping quiet? That would seem hard to believe, but apparently it's easier to believe there's more to it.

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JAAlbert
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:10 pm

NBCNews.com is reporting "More Dreamliner Ills," including the AI overheating oven, the QR event, and discovery of two more beacons having damaged wires (the wires did not cause fires). Only the discovery of the damaged wires appears to be somewhat newsworthy in light of the ET fire - and the discovery of the damaged wires shows that inspections and directives do what they are supposed to do - find and correct problems. It must be a slow news day
 
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:17 pm

It's not a slow news day, it's a stupid news day.

Yesterday, in both interviews of the WN and AS CEO's about their financial results, they were asked if, in light of all the recent problems at Boeing, they stood by their all Boeing fleet decision (or some such). Really?

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flood
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 13):
That is why I find it interesting that the fire department should choose to add the 'this week' qualifier to their statement, when it is clearly not required.

We don't really know if the fire department added the qualifier as it wasn't a direct quote from Reuters. That said, it doesn't seem emergency services were involved.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 14):
Is QR suddenly changing its approach to 787 issues and keeping quiet? That would seem hard to believe

Well, yes and no. If memory serves, Al Baker was critical of the decision to ground the aircraft and I don't see him going off on a rant involving a possible smoking electric panel - only to draw more unwanted attention and thereby potentially jeopardizing his own operations. His rants were primarily aimed at Boeing during the delays. Now that he operates the aircraft, why fling mud at his own product?

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 15):
Only the discovery of the damaged wires appears to be somewhat newsworthy in light of the ET fire

Details are scarce, but I certainly find the QR 'incident' newsworthy... unlike UA's diversions due engine problems, etc.
 
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:18 pm

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 1):
This has already been commented on in the ET 787 thread.

It's a different incident, so it deserves its own thread. (The problem is there's not much info about it right now.) Unless you're suggesting we retitle the other thread "All 787 Smoke and Fire Incidents"... which I don't think would go over too well with some people.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 10):
NBCNews.com is reporting "More Dreamliner Ills," including the AI overheating oven, the QR event, and discovery of two more beacons having damaged wires (the wires did not cause fires). Only the discovery of the damaged wires appears to be somewhat newsworthy in light of the ET fire

The overheating oven seems like an odd inclusion, but I would say this QR incident is potentially very newsworthy, and it is very odd that nobody wants to comment on it. If the media wants to do their job, they'll be digging up everything they can get at on this right now. Hopefully it turns out to be a red herring. But we don't know that yet; the rumors from "industry sources" warrant some further information. It would be in everyone's best interests to clarify if those rumors are true or not.

What "minor issues" with a brand new airplane could ground it for a week? Is Boeing really short of spare parts for a plane that's in active production?
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:42 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 13):
What "minor issues" with a brand new airplane could ground it for a week? Is Boeing really short of spare parts for a plane that's in active production?



JAL who is very forthcoming with information was stuck in BOS for almost a week with a fuel pump change which seems like a minor issue to me. Are we to think they are not telling the truth because that's something that shouldn't take that long?
 
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 7):

Are you claiming that the Doha fire department is involved in some sort of cover up?

That is not being suggested, it could be factual, they may not have the report as it may have been sent on. It does not indicate something did or did not happen.

Given the lack of info, it might be a self induced problem. It could be a simple human mistake during routine maintenance like dropping a tool or liquid in the wrong location.
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soon7x7
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:34 am

Silly as it may seam...do 787's have ashtrays at all galley locations?
 
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:02 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 11):
Yesterday, in both interviews of the WN and AS CEO's about their financial results, they were asked if, in light of all the recent problems at Boeing, they stood by their all Boeing fleet decision (or some such). Really?

I love the media.

Do you have a link to this by any chance?
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airbuseric
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:17 am

Interesting article online, also mentioning about ANA that found several wiring problems on the 787 last week:

Quote:
In the last month not a day appears to pass without some news about a glitch, malfunction, or full-blown fire, affecting the ironically named Boeing Dreamliner (resulting in the stock soaring to daily all time highs). Today promises to be no different, with not one, not two, but three separate incidents impacting the airplane.

Reuters reports that Qatar Airways has taken one of its 787 Dreamliners out of service following what it described as a "minor" technical issue. "Minor" as in a burnt-out indicator light, or "Minor" as in the plane nearly fell out of the sky burnt to a crisp? The distinction can be important.

"The airline and Boeing the airplane's manufacturer, declined to give further details but industry sources said they were treating seriously reports that the aircraft had been grounded for days after a problem with an electrical panel. According to web tracking service Flightaware, the aircraft, registered as A7-BCB, has not flown since Sunday, an unsually long downtime for a long-haul jet designed to save fuel bills." Well, it's usually something.

From Reuters:

"This is a minor issue for us, and not an incident, so we are not commenting," a spokeswoman said.

A spokeswoman for Boeing said, "We request that you channel all your enquiries to Qatar Airways."

Two industry sources said smoke had been reported near an electrical compartment while the jet was on the ground in Doha. It was not clear whether passengers were on board at the time, but the aircraft's next flight was carried out by another model.

Two people familar with the matter, asking not to be identified, said smoke had been reported near an electrical compartment while the jet was on the ground in Doha. A failure in a similar bay caused an fire during a test flight in 2010.

A fire-brigade supervisor in Doha said it did not have any record of an incident with an airport-related call last week.
But wait, there's more!

India's aviation regulator said earlier it had started an investigation after an oven in a 787 operated by Air India overheated during a domestic flight, causing smoke. There was no interruption to services.

Japan's ANA, which operates the world's biggest fleet of Dreamliners, also said on Friday it had found damage to the battery wiring on two 787 locator beacons.

Tests have been ordered on the beacons after a parked Ethiopian Airlines-owned 787 Dreamliner caught fire at London's Heathrow this month, causing extensive damage to the plane.

Why are so many "glitches" affecting the Dreamliner? Simple. As the following schematic so aptly demonstrates, the airplane is nothing but a flying representation of the European Union - every component is from a different country, held together by the "monetary cohesion" superglue equivalent of a Boeing assembly, and lots of political shareholder capital.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...all-report-minor-issues-boeing-787
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KC135R
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:44 am

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 18):
Interesting article online

Interesting, no...hyperbole, yes...

This illustrates it well:

"Minor" as in a burnt-out indicator light, or "Minor" as in the plane nearly fell out of the sky burnt to a crisp? The distinction can be important.

By definition the latter would not be a minor incident and it is clear media sensationalism - there is absolutely no reason to assume the plane nearly fell out of the sky burnt to a crisp, how utterly stupid to say it.

The fact is, we know very little about A7-BCB, certainly not enough to draw any firm conclusions as yet. What we do know is that the airline says it is a minor incident and the fire department at the airport did not confirm they responded to the described situation.

The crimped wires in the ANA (and now United) ELTs would only seem to back up the theory that the ELT is responsible for the fire at LHR, actually good news for the 787.

The "fire" in the oven of the AI plane wasn't even a fire at all and seems to be related to the oven, not the airplane.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/0...ner-airindia-idINDEE96P07O20130726

The overheating of the oven during a July 24 flight from New Delhi to Kolkata did not cause a fire, an Air India spokesman said

I know in all of these incidents there are still questions; but based on what we know at this point I just don't see how the sky is falling. But I suppose the author of that article is noble in the sense that he did not let the truth get in the way of a good story.  Yeah sure

[Edited 2013-07-26 20:53:30]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
Given the lack of info, it might be a self induced problem. It could be a simple human mistake during routine maintenance like dropping a tool or liquid in the wrong location.

To me, this type of scenario would fit the description of the responses much better than a smoking gun, but we've seen the way things go for the 787.

Would Boeing normally refer questions to an airline when it's a OEM or safety concern?

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 17):
Do you have a link to this by any chance

I just looked at the pages that I had visited but can't find the links. They were both from CNBC I believe.

-Dave
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BoeingVista
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:55 am

The wording of the fire brigade statement is suspiciously fiddly and qualified, the other place reports that 4 fire tenders attended the incident at stand A14 and were witnessed by multiple people. They also say that smoke was coming from panel in the cockpit which would make this a new type of fault if true.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 14):
JAL who is very forthcoming with information was stuck in BOS for almost a week with a fuel pump change which seems like a minor issue to me.

You wouldn't think that a simple fuel pump change would take 5 days.
BV
 
Hawaiian763
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:56 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 11):

The media just keeps on rolling downhill and over killing stories. If this had happened on say a 737 or 330, the media would have no interest. But of course because it's the 787 and It had a little smoke, the media has to make a big stink about it. Getting a little tired of these overblown stories about the 787
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 21):
The wording of the fire brigade statement is suspiciously fiddly and qualified

Sigh.

Quoting hawaiian763 (Reply 22):
The media just keeps on rolling downhill and over killing stories. If this had happened on say a 737 or 330, the media would have no interest. But of course because it's the 787 and It had a little smoke, the media has to make a big stink about it. Getting a little tired of these overblown stories about the 787

To a degree, they HAVE TO report on these stories. If something were to happen - such as a tragic crash - it would seem odd to have not mentioned these things in a newscast based on recent events. But it's one thing to mention it and another to link it to unrelated things, play it up, fan the flames, etc.

Asking WN's CEO if they stood by Boeing (iirc) was simply unintelligent AFAIC. Ditto with Alaska. BUT - there'd be someone asking them "Why didn't you bring this up?" if they didn't say it, and if something were to happen later that would have made the question relevant, they'd not want to be the one who didn't ask.

I despise it - like some of the baiting comments on here - but Boeing put themselves in this position by how they handled the program, so we just need to suck it up and work through it the best we can.

-Dave
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:31 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 14):
JAL who is very forthcoming with information was stuck in BOS for almost a week with a fuel pump change which seems like a minor issue to me. Are we to think they are not telling the truth because that's something that shouldn't take that long?

The A380 had fuel pump troubles in its early days and they took week(s) to sort out.
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:03 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 24):

The A380 had fuel pump troubles in its early days and they took week(s) to sort out.

From memory that is not true. AF had problem with their fuel pumps but that was years after EIS.

[Edited 2013-07-26 23:27:31]
BV
 
fcogafa
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:08 am

I understand that two newly delivered British Airways Boeing 787s have not flown for weeks, sounds very suspicious to me.....
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:51 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 25):
From memory that is not true. AF had problem with their fuel pumps but that was years after EIS.

Two seconds with google and BAM!

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/trave...ights/2008-03-26-a380-ground_N.htm
 
BruceSmith
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:37 am

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 5):
The reported incident happened on Sunday, which is actually this week not last.

Japan, like a lot of the Asian countries, start the week on Monday, not Sunday like the West does. So Sunday is last week to them.

ISO has also defined the week to start on Monday.
 
speedbird128
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:47 am

Quoting BruceSmith (Reply 28):
Japan, like a lot of the Asian countries, start the week on Monday, not Sunday like the West does. So Sunday is last week to them.

ISO has also defined the week to start on Monday.

And in Doha, the work week is Sunday through Thursday, with weekend being Friday and Saturday... Which is possibly relevant to this statement.
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:54 am

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 29):
And in Doha, the work week is Sunday through Thursday, with weekend being Friday and Saturday... Which is possibly relevant to this statement.

Interesting, my google-fu is bad today. I stand corrected.

I wonder why that was done, maybe to synchronize to the America's late day.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:56 am

Quoting BruceSmith (Reply 28):
not Sunday like the West does.

Actually almost all western countries except USA and Canada starts the week with Monday.
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borgcube
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:32 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 31):

Actually almost all western countries except USA and Canada starts the week with Monday.

Correct
 
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3rdGen
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:33 am

It is not in QRs interest to announce any problems with the 787. They are already running their operation to capacity. They cannot have any more scrutiny of the 787 and further negative press or a grounding. They had just 4 or 5 787s in a fleet of over 120 aircraft when they were grounded in January and it led to major issues with their scheduling and the opening of new routes. QR has no margin to play with when it comes to unexpected groundings etc. especially of more than 2 or 3 planes.

Edit: Well straight from the horse's mouth, from PPRUNE:

"It was an electric issue. Aircraft came out of hanger from maintenance check. Was at A14 with APU running waiting for crew to arrive. Several EICAS messages lead to APU shutdown when ground power was connected which tripped three times. Then smoke from one of the cockpit panels. Panel was removed and found some relays melted. Aircraft is now sealed waiting for Boeing experts to arrive."

[Edited 2013-07-27 02:40:36]
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speedbird128
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:11 am

Quoting BruceSmith (Reply 30):
I wonder why that was done, maybe to synchronize to the America's late day.

Having lived there it was according to religion that their Friday is the equivalent of our Sunday. In the past their weekend was traditionally Thursday/Friday. However, to fit in with the international business world, they moved the weekend to Friday/Saturday. I doubt it was specifically anything to do with America, but the world in general.
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flyhigh@tom
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:26 am

Quoting KC135R (Reply 3):
Not much information out there, but I found this interesting since there are claims that that aircraft was surrounded by fire trucks:

A fire-brigade supervisor in Doha said it did not have any record of an incident with an airport-related call last week.

KC135R...i stand by my statement in the ET thread. I talked to my colleague and he confirmed seeing fire trucks. you stand by the news report. i stand by my colleague. ..oh and as far as media is concerned in the part of the world where i live in right now....don't go by everything they say. There is always an official version.  
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:30 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 27):

Two seconds with google and BAM!

5 months after EIS the A380 had a single fuel pump problem that took 2 days to resolve? I'm sure that you have a point but I fail to grasp it. If we are to play this game I guess I have to point out that the JAL fuel pump took 5 days to repair and that the 787 seems prone to fires, at least 5 events so far.
BV
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:02 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 18):
Interesting article online, also mentioning about ANA that found several wiring problems on the 787

That's an interesting choice of words. That seems more dramatic than the actual statement:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 18):
Japan's ANA, which operates the world's biggest fleet of Dreamliners, also said on Friday it had found damage to the battery wiring on two 787 locator beacons
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:10 pm

After all the media and news about 787 and the word "smoke" or "fire", I guess if something like that happens while on flight (God Forbid) panic will ensue...

Its really sad that the media is using this to make "news", yes I think the 787 has had its share of problems but to make any kind of MX problem on the 787 a "NEWSWORTHY" event is in my opinion, sad and unprofessional.

TRB
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B777LRF
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting KC135R (Reply 7):
Are you claiming that the Doha fire department is involved in some sort of cover up?

There are several eyewitness who saw fire vehicles (plural) in attendance at the aircraft. The aircraft has been sitting in a hangar ever since, supposedly waiting for a team of Boeing experts to have a poke around her. Now unless they're traveling by steam, my guess they've been on site for the better part of a week now. Yet we've not heard a peep; Boeing are referring to QR, and QR are keeping a lid on things.

But, to the point, my suggestion is that a 'cover up' is exactly what is happening. If you think Qatar, Doha Airport or Qatar Airways operate to the same standards of transparency and corporate governance which prevails in much of the democratic world, you are very mistaken indeed. QR, for all intents and purposes, runs the commercial aviation show in the state of Qatar, including the airport. The press is subject to censorship. AAB has a direct line to the royal family who controls Qatar.

Draw your own conclusions.
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BoeingVista
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:32 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 39):
QR, for all intents and purposes, runs the commercial aviation show in the state of Qatar, including the airport. The press is subject to censorship. AAB has a direct line to the royal family who controls Qatar.

Draw your own conclusions.

Now, were there not murmurings from Boeing and the FAA that the AAIB had no IACO rights to investigate the Ethiopian fire because the aircraft was not about to depart? AAIB ignored them of course and launched a full investigation that will produce a report, but will this one? Has the FAA or NTSB even been informed I wonder, maybe some journalists with connections would like to ask their contacts or through official channels.

Something seems to have occurred, we are not getting flat denials, but the industry is being denied a teachable moment that could save lives in the future, Qatar should be ashamed of covering up this incident up and shaming them may be the only way to get them to be open about it.
BV
 
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zeke
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 40):
Now, were there not murmurings from Boeing and the FAA that the AAIB had no IACO rights to investigate the Ethiopian fire because the aircraft was not about to depart? AAIB ignored them of course and launched a full investigation that will produce a report, but will this one?

Not exactly true, I had mentioned this earlier. The aircraft was not in the course of being operated, so if it is written off, it would not be considered loss due to an accident.

However the UK "Civil Aviation (Investigation of Air Accidents and Incidents) Regulations 1996" states that the "Chief Inspector may, when he expects to draw air safety lessons from it, carry out, or cause an Inspector to carry out, an investigation into an incident, other than a serious incident". They are acting well within UK law to look at this event.

I am sure you would agree, given that 3 different operators have aircraft with similar pinched wiring in the ELT, they have achieved "air safety lessons" that may have prevented an accident.

The following are rumors only, nothing factual has been released by a verifiable source, it maybe totally inaccurate. The rumors are that event in Doha apparently happened just after a maintenance event, the aircraft had just been towed onto stand with the APU running in a serviceable state for a flight. Allegedly the GPU when connected tripped a number of times and a reduction in the viability on the cockpit was observed similar to the appearance to smoke. Apparently 4 ARFF appliances were observed at stand 14 on that day. A7-BCB was also thought to have been towed to stand 14.

If the sequence of events is accurate, it would not be classified as an aircraft accident. It would however still be reported via normal maintenance service difficulty report process with has both the manufacturer and TCDS issuing state involved.
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BoeingVista
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:30 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
Not exactly true, I had mentioned this earlier.

Pretty sure that it was reported in the NYT that questions were raised, but yes the AAIB has the right under local law to carry out the investigation anyway so the point was not pushed.

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
I am sure you would agree, given that 3 different operators have aircraft with similar pinched wiring in the ELT, they have achieved "air safety lessons" that may have prevented an accident.

Yes, totally agree but my point here is had she not caught fire publically and then been immediately locked away in a hanger would these valuable lessons have been learned in a timely manner?

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
The following are rumours only, nothing factual has been released by a verifiable source,

Also my point, we have eyewitness testimony of tenders attending but no explanation from the operator. If there was a 'smoke event' involving the electrical system surely this should be relayed to the FAA & NTSB so that they can add it to the active investigation into the 787 electrical system.

More and more it looks like we are going to have to have deaths before people come clean about the what is going on with the 787, we have had so many 'lucky' accidents so far but luck does not last forever.
BV
 
osiris30
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:56 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 42):
More and more it looks like we are going to have to have deaths before people come clean about the what is going on with the 787, we have had so many 'lucky' accidents so far but luck does not last forever.

How do you end up with that after Zeke *clearly* stated:

Quoting zeke (Reply 41):
The rumors are that event in Doha apparently happened just after a maintenance event, the aircraft had just been towed onto stand with the APU running in a serviceable state for a flight. Allegedly the GPU when connected tripped a number of times and a reduction in the viability on the cockpit was observed similar to the appearance to smoke.

Sounds like the issue here was QR maintenance staff screwed up and broke something. Hardly an issue with the 787. Just as MX issues with an engine after improper service aren't an engine issue. There is a lot of 'new' in the 787, for both Boeing and the folks who have to maintain them.
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BoeingVista
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:22 am

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 43):
ow do you end up with that after Zeke *clearly* stated:

Quite simple, it is not clear what the issue was or who cause it but knowledge of what it was / who / what caused it could prevent this issue re occurring possibly in flight. Secrecy on faults that cause fire is dangerous to aircraft and the flying public. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?
BV
 
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zeke
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:51 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 42):
Pretty sure that it was reported in the NYT that questions were raised, but yes the AAIB has the right under local law to carry out the investigation anyway so the point was not pushed.

I think the paper then is just uninformed, the NTSB has also investigated incidents that have not occurred during operation, e.g. the uncontained engine failure on an AA 767 during a maintenance ground run.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 42):
If there was a 'smoke event' involving the electrical system surely this should be relayed to the FAA & NTSB so that they can add it to the active investigation into the 787 electrical system.

As the event does not appear to have occurred during the operation of the aircraft, the aircraft operator would have informed their local CAA and the manufacturer. The Local CAA then informs the TCDS issuer (could be either EASA or FAA).

The NTSB may not need to be involved at all.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 42):
Yes, totally agree but my point here is had she not caught fire publically and then been immediately locked away in a hanger would these valuable lessons have been learned in a timely manner?

If the aircraft needs further maintenance, I would expect it to be done in a hanger. Nothing unusual about doing that work in an air conditioned hanger in 40 deg C heat in that part of the world.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 42):
Also my point, we have eyewitness testimony of tenders attending but no explanation from the operator.

The operator is not obligated to explain anything.

Quoting osiris30 (Reply 43):
Sounds like the issue here was QR maintenance staff screwed up and broke something

That may or may not be true, we just do not know.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 44):
uite simple, it is not clear what the issue was or who cause it but knowledge of what it was / who / what caused it could prevent this issue re occurring possibly in flight. Secrecy on faults that cause fire is dangerous to aircraft and the flying public. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?



And when it is investigated thoroughly by Boeing (or others) if it is a concern it will be broadcast to any parties that need the information (which is not members of A.net). It's impossible to keep anything quiet these days and the harm to Boeing/QTR would be much worse hiding something now and having it exposed later. With your paranoia it's amazing you can sleep at night.
 
BoeingVista
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:10 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
The operator is not obligated to explain anything.

No but Boeing refers enquiries to the operator so getting information becomes a circular problem.

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
The NTSB may not need to be involved at all.

Again my point, there is an open investigation into the electrical system so wouldn't it make sense for the NTSB to have a look?

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
If the aircraft needs further maintenance, I would expect it to be done in a hanger. Nothing unusual about doing that work in an air conditioned hanger in 40 deg C heat in that part of the world.

Nope, nothing unusual about that no, point was if ET aircraft had burned in Doha and then been hidden and investigated in secret would we be having the AD issued and finding of similar faulty installations? If not 787's would currently be flying with a fault that can start a blaze in flight and prove fatal to all aboard.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:24 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 44):
Quite simple, it is not clear what the issue was or who cause it but knowledge of what it was / who / what caused it could prevent this issue re occurring possibly in flight. Secrecy on faults that cause fire is dangerous to aircraft and the flying public. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

So now we know there was a fire on the QR plane? I thought we were in the dark?

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 47):
Nope, nothing unusual about that no, point was if ET aircraft had burned in Doha and then been hidden and investigated in secret would we be having the AD issued and finding of similar faulty installations? If not 787's would currently be flying with a fault that can start a blaze in flight and prove fatal to all aboard.

Frankly, I think you are really crossing a line with your statements.

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sturmovik
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RE: Smoke In QR 787, Grounded For Days

Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:44 am

Slightly off topic, but didn't QR cargo lose an A300 to a fire in the hangar? There was a pic on a.net but I remember it being pulled a few weeks later.
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