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enilria
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F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:27 pm

This is strangely worded. It sort of says it is sold without saying to who and saying it is contingent on a bunch of other things that they refuse to talk about. Par for the course I guess...

http://skift.com/2013/07/26/republic...m-sheet-to-sell-frontier-airlines/
 
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enilria
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:44 pm

OK, on the conference call it says it is a "non-binding" agreement. So, it means nothing yet...
 
point2point
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:57 pm

i guess that it's not just so easy to sell an airline these days.... although maybe after all of the Ts have been crossed and the Is have been dotted well..... maybe then an announcement could have been made.......

 
 
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enilria
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):

i guess that it's not just so easy to sell an airline these days.... although maybe after all of the Ts have been crossed and the Is have been dotted well..... maybe then an announcement could have been made.......

It is such a loose announcement that I'm not sure any means any more than what they said 3 months ago or 6 months ago.
 
SPREE34
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
It is such a loose announcement that I'm not sure any means any more than what they said 3 months ago or 6 months ago.

Yes, they've become the kings of flopped "big news coming".

KOA Radio in Denver just reported the same thing on the 11am news report.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 4):
KOA Radio in Denver just reported the same thing on the 11am news report.

Saw that too.

Any speculations?
 
LAXintl
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Back in April it was mentioned the two interested parties were Indigo Partners LLC and Anchorage Capital Group.

Phoenix based Indigo headed by former America West Chairman is the one with much wider airline experience, especially with the LCC sector. (Spirit, Wizz, Tiger, Volaris, etc.)


To me the bigger comments of interest made in the article were:

Bedford noted that Republic has made it an overriding goal to sell Frontier in 2013, and plans to discuss the matter with shareholders in September. He added that Republic is not putting the resources into Frontier to take it to the next level.

If the sale does not go through, then management will discuss with shareholders “where we go from there,” Bedford said.


Sounds a bit ominous....
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drgmobile
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:04 pm

Third party agreements sounds like it could be unions -- Is Frontier unionized? Or significant creditors. I always thought Spirit made sense for teaming up with them.
 
sunking737
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:14 pm

I wonder if the Dickie Birds are saying anything or is it being kept a secret??.

If Republic moved their annual meeting back sounds like they may vote on the sale of Frontier. Stay tune haters you will have news soon...LOL. Good luck to all the Frontier folks.
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enilria
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
To me the bigger comments of interest made in the article were:
Bedford noted that Republic has made it an overriding goal to sell Frontier in 2013, and plans to discuss the matter with shareholders in September. He added that Republic is not putting the resources into Frontier to take it to the next level.

If the sale does not go through, then management will discuss with shareholders “where we go from there,” Bedford said.
Sounds a bit ominous....

I missed that, but I agree that implies a shutdown if the sale is not completed...but who knows.

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 7):
Third party agreements sounds like it could be unions -- Is Frontier unionized? Or significant creditors. I always thought Spirit made sense for teaming up with them.

Usually in something like this the 3rd parties are the financing for the deal, but since this thing is non-binding I would not attach much to this. This term sheet may have been in place 6 months ago. Did they say it was recently signed anywhere? I do not think that since it is non-binding that it is "material" and required for disclosure.

A term sheet is little more than a price tag on a can of peaches.

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 8):
If Republic moved their annual meeting back sounds like they may vote on the sale of Frontier. Stay tune haters you will have news soon...LOL. Good luck to all the Frontier folks.

Not sure what that means. It implies something more than a non-binding agreement would.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:44 pm

Someone must be watching the numbers at NK and G4 and are wanting a piece of the action. Bedford is going to want his best return possible for his mainline excursion. To me, one big unresolved issue is DEN. Would an ULCC want a true hub, and if not, how do you get Frontier, without paying more than you want, for more than you need?

I have nothing against WN, but it'll be a bitter pill to swallow to see them succeed in booting Frontier from Denver, however it ends up happening.

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rampart
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
To me, one big unresolved issue is DEN. Would an ULCC want a true hub, and if not, how do you get Frontier, without paying more than you want, for more than you need?

I have nothing against WN, but it'll be a bitter pill to swallow to see them succeed in booting Frontier from Denver, however it ends up happening.

If F9 becomes a twin of NK (which it is in many respects), NK's injection into DFW, CHI, DTW, LAS, and DEN seems to make little difference to the existing major carriers there, either that or they can't do much about NK's establishment. F9 could do the same if/when it gains even more mass and momentum. But they need to be growing and staying rather than shrinking and retreating. At any rate, I think their missions are different enough.

And maybe it is NK that is the rumored investor, and that would make some sense already in DEN.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Back in April it was mentioned the two interested parties were Indigo Partners LLC and Anchorage Capital Group.

Phoenix based Indigo headed by former America West Chairman is the one with much wider airline experience, especially with the LCC sector. (Spirit, Wizz, Tiger, Volaris, etc.)

I had to look this up because you mentioning America West, my first thought was that it was Ed Beauvais, and wouldn't that be ironic given his loss of WestPac to a board of directors who attempted to merge with infant Frontier 2.0. But my wild speculation is off, It turns out to be Dr. William Franke, according to Bloomberg, and it mentions his CEO-ship of USAirways but not America West, though someone out there can refresh my memory or correct it. I'm wary of CEOs who go by Dr. when the doctorate is an honorary one from a second tier state university.

And lookie there, Franke is chairman of the board at Spirit. It seems to be falling into place, unless if falls apart.

Interesting, I see Bloomberg has corrected that Dr. title in the last hour. It's now Mr. Franke. Weird. I'm less wary now, but more wary of Bloomberg News.

-Rampart
 
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
Interesting, I see Bloomberg has corrected that Dr. title in the last hour. It's now Mr. Franke. Weird. I'm less wary now, but more wary of Bloomberg News.

The sourcing which came into Bloomberg was wrong. Bloomberg appropriately made a correction.
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F9Animal
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:40 pm

Bedford pretty much sums it up. He is not putting any resources into F9 to take it to the next level. If that does not raise eyebrows, then I don't know what else can. That alone tells me that Bedford is pretty much finished with his experiment. As for someone buying F9? I am hopeful, but not confident. If F9 was consistently profitable, then I would be all warm and fuzzy.
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ScottB
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
If the sale does not go through, then management will discuss with shareholders “where we go from there,” Bedford said.

Sounds a bit ominous....

Agreed. And it would seem to diminish Republic's negotiating leverage with potential buyers. But I suppose the parent company's interest in selling F9 has been no secret for at least a year.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
I have nothing against WN, but it'll be a bitter pill to swallow to see them succeed in booting Frontier from Denver, however it ends up happening.

Obviously WN liked what it saw enough to want to buy the company and keep a big chunk of the staff -- but that was not meant to be.
 
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Obviously WN liked what it saw enough to want to buy the company and keep a big chunk of the staff -- but that was not meant to be.

What assets does F9 have now? Anyone else think NK could be trying to buy it for the planes only?
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nuggetsyl
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:19 pm

Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.
 
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:19 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 3):
It is such a loose announcement that I'm not sure any means any more than what they said 3 months ago or 6 months ago.

The agreement probably includes a non-disclosure agreement and allows the unnamed party to perform a due diligence examination of Frontier's books. Either side can walk away: Mr. Anonymous, if he doesn't like what he sees, or Republic, if they get a better offer.
 
rampart
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting nuggetsyl (Reply 16):

Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.

Unlikely at this point. A few years ago, maybe they were similar, but they are on divergent paths now. Jetblue wouldn't benefit from anything but aircraft orders and a bigger presence in DEN, but they haven't gone for a bigger presence anywhere in the middle of the country, yet, and DEN would not be the best place for that, in a Jetblue model.
 
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:50 pm

I doubt another airline is going to buy F9, it is likely going to be a private equity firm (like the aforementioned Indigo Partners).
 
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting nuggetsyl (Reply 16):
Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.

Why buy with all the associated cost if as it looks now, there is the potental that the airline will "go away"?
Sit on the side lines and see what happens, much cheaper.
 
LAXintl
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:07 pm

As far as what the purchaser of F9 potentially really gets, its a brand and any intrinsic value behind it.

They really are not getting anything physically as the entire fleet is either leased or mortgage. Buildings and airport facilities are on leases. There is a shrinking employee pool as airport handling has now been farmed out.

F9 is not the typical airline that has a bevy of assets that can be valued in the typical sense.

Its really a name and brand and whatever value that drives this as an ongoing business enterprise to a prospective purchaser.
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
As far as what the purchaser of F9 potentially really gets, its a brand and any intrinsic value behind it.

Which begs the question - what Is it that Indigo is seeing in terms of potential value that other parties are not?
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wjcandee
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
They really are not getting anything physically as the entire fleet is either leased or mortgage. Buildings and airport facilities are on leases. There is a shrinking employee pool as airport handling has now been farmed out.

You're getting a going concern that has procedures, trained people, and an active operation.

That's hardly just buying a brand.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
I doubt another airline is going to buy F9, it is likely going to be a private equity firm (like the aforementioned Indigo Partners).

  

The answer to the OP's question is - no.

Frontier has not been sold nor has any official at Republic (or Frontier) suggested that it has been sold. The process has simply moved to the next - and logical - stage. CEO Siegel, in a subsequent letter to the staff, sounded more chipper than he has for a while, but nothing is carved in granite, and sure, it could all fall apart.

Despite the embargo on questions about the Frontier sale, a couple of interesting pieces of trivia came out of the cc regarding the forward Frontier business plan - which is what they are actually selling. That - predictably - the Airbus order would be transferred to Frontier and that - less predictably - they presently assume that Frontier will resume growth mode next year, 2014.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Sounds a bit ominous....

Well, mayhap. I'm not sure what else he could say, though. If the BOD, on behalf of the shareholders, has required the sale, the BOD needs to decide on whatever Plan B it wants - on behalf of the shareholders.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Which begs the question - what Is it that Indigo is seeing in terms of potential value that other parties are not?

Is it Indigo? It may be, but I'm not prepared to put money on it yet.

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PlanesNTrains
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Indigo would be getting a going concern that is already on the road to ULCC-hood. It might be enough to get them to bite - who knows? If so, though, they must see a bright future for the model, be willing to invest capital, and be hoping to perhaps sell part/all down the road.

Otherwise, why bother?

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LAXintl
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 23):
You're getting a going concern that has procedures, trained people, and an active operation.

Which is what I said below.

But besides that its a paper enterprise. Nothing real hard you can hold and say its owned.

Also once you pull off the Republic overhead, I am curious to see what the true financial picture of F9 would be.

Corporate overhead is shared, and F9 benefits in other ways thanks to RAH better credit and purchasing power. I know some vendor agreements are via RAH and F9 benefits as a result of being an add-on essentially to the large volume RAH generates already.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Its really a name and brand and whatever value that drives this as an ongoing business enterprise to a prospective purchaser.
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enilria
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 11):
If F9 becomes a twin of NK (which it is in many respects)
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
Someone must be watching the numbers at NK and G4 and are wanting a piece of the action.

Yes, but NK had a 16% operating margin in the quarter. F9 had a 4%. No reason to buy them.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 13):
Bedford pretty much sums it up. He is not putting any resources into F9 to take it to the next level. If that does not raise eyebrows, then I don't know what else can. That alone tells me that Bedford is pretty much finished with his experiment.

I think you are right which does not square with this...

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
they presently assume that Frontier will resume growth mode next year, 2014.

...the two are completely contradictory. I'm going to take the "assume" as a waffle word that means not to take that at face value.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 25):
Indigo would be getting a going concern that is already on the road to ULCC-hood. It might be enough to get them to bite - who knows?
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Which begs the question - what Is it that Indigo is seeing in terms of potential value that other parties are not?
Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Agreed. And it would seem to diminish Republic's negotiating leverage with potential buyers. But I suppose the parent company's interest in selling F9 has been no secret for at least a year.

Well, exactly. There is only one reason for Indigo which is invested in Spirit to buy F9...to get them out of the way of Spirit. By implying that RJET won't keep F9 going they take even that justification away.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Obviously WN liked what it saw enough to want to buy the company and keep a big chunk of the staff -- but that was not meant to be.

More and more it seems like that would have been the best outcome, but spilt milk...

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 15):
What assets does F9 have now? Anyone else think NK could be trying to buy it for the planes only?

Nothing really. I used to say gates at DEN, but not even really that. WN had little trouble getting as many as they wanted.

Quoting rampart (Reply 18):
Unlikely at this point.
Quoting nuggetsyl (Reply 16):
Ok my guess is jetblue will buy F9. But I am clearly no expert.

I give that a 0.5%. Unless something else crazy happens where AA gives B6 another hub and they need airplanes quickly, I grant that a zero likelihood. The direction F9 is going is the antithesis of the direction B6 is going and DEN is worthless to B6.

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):

I doubt another airline is going to buy F9, it is likely going to be a private equity firm (like the aforementioned Indigo Partners).

I doubt it is anybody controlling Spirit, but I agree it is not an airline. I suspect it is not somebody who plans to operate F9 long term which just creates new uncertainty.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
Which is what I said below.

But besides that its a paper enterprise. Nothing real hard you can hold and say its owned.

Here's the problem with the fleet. There was a time when their fleet was valuable. It's long past. Their fleet is now old and the new NEO aircraft will obsolete the F9 fleet. There is really no reason to take their planes. Spirit has a ton of planes coming and just ordered more. That would not have happened if they were buying F9. The CMO of NK (who created their whole schtick) just left and I think also the CFO, there is no way in that void they just made any kind of commitment to buy F9 even non-binding.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
I'm going to take the "assume" as a waffle word that means not to take that at face value.

Of course you would. LOL.

mariner
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:22 pm

Enilria, if F9 had a 16% operating margin, they wouldn't be for sale today. Bedford would have done the spin-off or whatever by now. But - they don't, so here we sit. If someone sees potential in todays Frontier, then they just might bite when the operating margin is at 4% because when they get it to 16% they will make their money back in a sale.

If Indigo wanted to get rid of Frontier, and they didn't see potential for Frontier to succeed, they wouldn't spend good money buying them when they could wait for the inevitable collapse. This tells me that perhaps there is more potential for Frontier than some here would believe, even if it's just modest profitability.

Perhaps the fear that Indigo has in your scenario is that Frontier just might hang on for years to come, creating grief for NK even though they seem to not really be identical. Ironically, that shows that Frontier is still relevant. There's joy in that revelation for some, and disappointment for others.

-Dave
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Polot
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 29):
Enilria, if F9 had a 16% operating margin, they wouldn't be for sale today. Bedford would have done the spin-off or whatever by now.

If F9 had a 16% operating margin Bedford wouldn't be selling them in the first place.
 
LV
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:59 pm

It's DL.... DL is buying F9 just to get the planes and move it's hub from SLC to DEN.   
 
Beardown91737
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting LV (Reply 31):
It's DL

I was thinking it was US to fill the UA codeshares they are walking away from.
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F9Animal
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RE: F9 Sold?

Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:35 pm

I am hopeful F9 gets bought by a competent group. The main hope is to see Siegel get kicked to the curb, and Bedford a distant memory. I had such high hopes when RAH got Frontier. However, after seeing how terrible things have been run, I gave up hope. And when Bedford handed Siegel out of all people the job, I about puked. Siegel has a proven track record of destroying airlines, and he certainly has done plenty more damage to F9. I dislike Menke big time, but he had a much better idea on how to run F9.
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mariner
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 30):
If F9 had a 16% operating margin Bedford wouldn't be selling them in the first place.

Be interesting to see what happens if Frontier hits the 8-10% margin they are estimating for Q3.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
Siegel has a proven track record of destroying airlines, and he certainly has done plenty more damage to F9.

Which airlines has he destroyed?

And if your reply is US Airways, I would remind you of the roles played by Lakefield and Bronner, and the unions, in that.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
I dislike Menke big time, but he had a much better idea on how to run F9.

Chapter 11 was certainly one way of doing it, but there may be many at Pinnacle who disagree with you.

mariner
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n7371f
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
I missed that, but I agree that implies a shutdown if the sale is not completed...but who knows.

Boy lost a ton of respect from all your postings with this comment. Idiotic. There's nothing in his comment that implies anything.
 
cschleic
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:07 am

Quoting LV (Reply 31):
It's DL.... DL is buying F9 just to get the planes and move it's hub from SLC to DEN

Then merge it with AS. As soon as DL was mentioned, there had to be an AS comment!
 

Now back to the topic....
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
I am hopeful F9 gets bought by a competent group.

Unfortunately, it looks like your best shots are investors that have invested with Spirit and Wizzair. While I am not familiar with Wizz Air, I do know that Spirit while it makes money it very much lacking in quality and customer service. I believe it was Spirit CEO Ben Baldanza who said in regards to a customer complaint something to the effect of "He'll come crawling back when he wants to save a buck".

I am hoping that Frontier is able to find a good formula where they do go towards a ULCC model but doesn't go as far as Spirit does. I don't mind paying for a drink, paying for my luggage or even a carry-on as long as the price is a decent savings. I don't like sardine like seat pitch (not that the majors are anything to write home about), being charged a convenience fee because I didn't go to the airport (even though it probably cost them more to process me with a real person) and policies that reflect an attitude towards the customer as Mr. Baldanza. .

I wish you and all the other "different animals" the best and I hope that I can continue to use you guys out of TTN and ILG for awhile.
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:41 am

If AS didn't fly all Boeing metal I can't help but think about AS as a possible suitor for F9. DEN is valuable real estate and the perfect airport slightly left of the mid continent center line for AS continued growth in the lower 48. From DEN the possibilities are endless.

Three of F9 best markets are DEN-SEA, DEN-DCA and DEN-ANC The last time I checked AS offered three daily flights between SEA-DEN-SEA.

I think the hybrid TTN focus city is being under estimated too. A sole source carrier in a catchment area of roughly 3.5 million people. The framework is there. I also think TTN is currently under utilized. Keeping the shorter runway in mind I can easily see 15 daily flights from TTN.
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RWA380
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:49 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
The agreement probably includes a non-disclosure agreement and allows the unnamed party to perform a due diligence examination of Frontier's books. Either side can walk away: Mr. Anonymous, if he doesn't like what he sees, or Republic, if they get a better offer

Yes I think AQ fell for this trick by Mesa, and look at how that went for them.
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enilria
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 29):

I keep saying this. It's a 4% OPERATING MARGIN. That's a loss. Unfortunately, companies have to pay interest and taxes. If you look at Republic's overall results the Net Margin is if memory serves 8 points lower than the operating margin. That's normal. That means F9 lost money. I keep saying that AMR reported an operating profit in the quarter before CH11. Net is what is important.

Quoting Polot (Reply 30):

True, although he'd have bigger labor troubles.

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):

I have no doubt they will have an 8-10% operating margin in 3q, but as I keep pointing out that is only a break even result on net margin in their best quarter. Nobody cares about operating margin.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 35):

So, then what does Bedford mean when he says he won't invest any more in F9? It means they can't take any more aircraft, for example. It seems like a pretty bleak comment.

Unless the ULCC model starts producing a positive annual NET margin they are unsellable.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 38):
I also think TTN is currently under utilized. Keeping the shorter runway in mind I can easily see 15 daily flights from TTN.

After the terminal renovations are done, TTN is going to have atleast 2 gates, which means that they should be able to handle 2 flights boarding at the same time. So an increase is possible from a terminal standpoint.
Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
 
OB1504
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:27 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 37):
While I am not familiar with Wizz Air, I do know that Spirit while it makes money it very much lacking in quality and customer service. I believe it was Spirit CEO Ben Baldanza who said in regards to a customer complaint something to the effect of "He'll come crawling back when he wants to save a buck".

Baldanza's right, though. The financial returns speak for themselves.

That being said, I flew NK last night and we had a 3-hour delay due to a late inbound aircraft. Considering the attitudes of some of the passengers (who were upset to begin with because they were flying NK), the agents and flight attendants were saints for how they put up with it. It was on par with the service I received from AA on my outbound flight, though I guess that doesn't mean as much as it used to.
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:28 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I have no doubt they will have an 8-10% operating margin in 3q, but as I keep pointing out that is only a break even result on net margin in their best quarter. Nobody cares about operating margin.

Yes, you keep saying it. They keep saying income.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
So, then what does Bedford mean when he says he won't invest any more in F9? It means they can't take any more aircraft, for example.

In that case, I guess the Airbus NEO order would go away. I'm not sure that will happen.

mariner

[Edited 2013-07-26 19:30:30]
aeternum nauta
 
MaverickM11
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 33):
And when Bedford handed Siegel out of all people the job, I about puked. Siegel has a proven track record of destroying airlines, and he certainly has done plenty more damage to F9. I dislike Menke big time, but he had a much better idea on how to run F9.

Who would you like to see run F9? And separately, who is competent and would want to run F9? That'd be a fascinating Venn diagram.
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masseybrown
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:11 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 39):
Yes I think AQ fell for this trick by Mesa, and look at how that went for them.

Is Republic as desperate as Aloha was? I don't know; but that's the risk you take. Riskier maybe if Ohrstein is the one knocking at the door, but still it's always a risk.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:15 am

No, no. It will be history repeating itself. PEOPLExpress will buy Frontier......  
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Jerseyguy
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 42):
Baldanza's right, though. The financial returns speak for themselves.

No they do make money, no doubt about it, but I think its sad how people put up with poor treatment just to save a buck. I don't fly Spirit for that reason, if Frontier were to go down that road, I'd stop using them even though TTN is more convenient for me.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 30):
If F9 had a 16% operating margin Bedford wouldn't be selling them in the first place.

..

I started to type that but then retracted because I assume that the end game all along was that Frontier would be profitable and that Republic would float some of it to another investor to recoup their investment.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I keep saying this. It's a 4% OPERATING MARGIN.

Well, THANKS for putting it in CAPITAL LETTERS so I DIDN'T MISS IT. That was HELPFUL.

Regardless, they are doing better than they were. They are probably on a course to profitability based on their new excursions and more profit oriented route decisions. Whether it works or not is up to the numbers.

Quoting enilria (Reply 40):
I have no doubt they will have an 8-10% operating margin in 3q, but as I keep pointing out that is only a break even result on net margin in their best quarter. Nobody cares about operating margin.

Do you have another number we can use to compare then? Something that relates to the quarterly results released by other carriers recently?

-Dave
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KC135R
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RE: F9 Sold?

Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:25 am

According to this article, maybe Indigo Partners, a Spirit shareholder:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...er%20(Denver%20Business%20Journal)

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