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1337Delta764
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Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:08 pm

According to Frontier's schedules, it looks like Frontier is discontinuing its DEN-ABQ route after January 5, 2014 after flying this route for so many years.

Fact is, the DEN-ABQ route could not sustain three carriers operating it. When WN started it, they became the #1 carrier on the route almost immediately, and F9 has lost much of their market share on this route.

[Edited 2013-07-26 14:13:55]
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:14 pm

I'm on my iPad so not going to do the searches, but this has been discussed in a few threads.

-Dave
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mtnwest1979
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:21 am

My first trip to ABQ was on Frontier. Although it was original Frontier in July 1986, FL BOI-DEN-ABQ thru flight. $99 and return was PS ABQ-LAX, connect to SFO-BOI. This was done for $59. Great trip for $158!

I guessed it was only a matter of time for this to end. I hate to see any route cut by anyone.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
rampart
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:40 am

This must be one of F9's first routes in the early 90s.
Also part of Monarch's very early network in 1946, predecessor to Frontier 1.0.

-Rampart
 
ggflyboy
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:55 am

This is a bummer for New Mexico. Between ABQ and ELP, SW and AA really have the place in a stranglehold. Recently drove up to ABQ to fly F9-- totally worth it, fare was a quarter the price of SW or the legacies out of ELP. Of course, maybe rock bottom fares are why they're pulling out. Kind of strange how the managed the station-- totally outsourced, low frequency. Not really a way to flow traffic efficiently into your nearby hub. Compare F9's ABQ - DEN to US on TUS - PHX. Totally different strategy. Guess they can't make 45 minute legs on an A319 work- did they ever try the E190?

In all seriousness, maybe F9 should try ELP to DEN. Currently served by UA with an RJ or two. Connections in general to the upper half of the country are not that great and frightfully expensive- DL doesn't even fly to SLC out of ELP, just 2X daily to ATL. Demand is there from military, business, and border traffic- so far, competition is not.

I suppose the counter argument is that SW would just start service on ELP-DEN, drive F9 off, and then cancel it. Yay for "low fares."
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:02 am

Quoting ggflyboy (Reply 4):
This is a bummer for New Mexico. Between ABQ and ELP, SW and AA really have the place in a stranglehold. Recently drove up to ABQ to fly F9-- totally worth it, fare was a quarter the price of SW or the legacies out of ELP. Of course, maybe rock bottom fares are why they're pulling out. Kind of strange how the managed the station-- totally outsourced, low frequency. Not really a way to flow traffic efficiently into your nearby hub. Compare F9's ABQ - DEN to US on TUS - PHX. Totally different strategy. Guess they can't make 45 minute legs on an A319 work- did they ever try the E190?

In all seriousness, maybe F9 should try ELP to DEN. Currently served by UA with an RJ or two. Connections in general to the upper half of the country are not that great and frightfully expensive- DL doesn't even fly to SLC out of ELP, just 2X daily to ATL. Demand is there from military, business, and border traffic- so far, competition is not.

I suppose the counter argument is that SW would just start service on ELP-DEN, drive F9 off, and then cancel it. Yay for "low fares."

ABQ-DEN seems more out of the way to me for someone who is flying ABQ-hub-XXX, unless the XXX is somewhere in the upper midwest or rockies. Otherwise, the only reason to fly them through DEN is price - AA, WN, UA, and DL all have better connecting options for the majority of the country.

WN is definitely a challenge.

-Dave
-Dave
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:26 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 5):
WN is definitely a challenge.

Sure, it is - but I'm not certain it is just Southwest.

When the change was announced, that Frontier would morph to ULCC, I think a lot of folk thought it would go on doing pretty much what it had been doing, but cheaper, with fewer perks.

I think it is much more than that, I think they're reinventing the route map. Given that they get only okay loads and fares on DEN-ABQ (it's almost always on sale), I'd rather see that aircraft used somewhere with less competition, somewhere it can actually make some money.

I don't suppose ELP is a "leisure" destination but it is interesting and DEN-ELP has frittered through my mind. But I think ggflyboy (#4) is right - even the merest glimmer of success and Southwest would be all over it like a rash on a pox patient - so maybe better to put the aircraft somewhere further away from those predatory practices.

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F9Animal
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:41 am

ABQ was one of F9s first stations. I did training with F9 in ABQ, and worked the old 737-200. The station had a great team, and this is just sad to see happen.

Speaking of pulling out.... How many cities have been cut in the last 6 months? I swear it has been at least 10! The costs associated with opening a station, then closing it has to be hurting the bottom line. And, I remember Bedford bragging about a computer program. A program that would find profitable routes.

[Edited 2013-07-28 01:57:17]
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THEFLLFLYER
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:40 pm

Quoting F9animal (Reply 7):
Speaking of pulling out.... How many cities have been cut in the last 6 months? I swear it has been at least 10!

Closing down unprofitable stations like PVU, ABQ and SBN while focusing resources on the east coast with TTN and ILG.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:55 pm

Bummer for ABQ. They just got B6, and now they lose F9. I suppose that's a fair trade off though since B6 is doing the only nonstop to NYC while there are 10 nonstops a day to DEN between UA and WN. F9 has $59 one-way advance purchase fares in the market, while WN and UA both average around $99. The yields must be horrible in the market for F9.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:00 pm

With the anticipated closure of SBN and ABQ it seems we should be hearing of a new market (or two) or at least some frequency modification in the not too distant future. I believe DEN ABQ is flown twice daily and DEN-SBN 4 x weekly.

The metal doesn't make money on the ground.
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HPRamper
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:12 pm

Quoting ggflyboy (Reply 4):
Guess they can't make 45 minute legs on an A319 work- did they ever try the E190?

They used to use the Lynx CR7s and I'm not sure about the Q400.
 
usflyguy
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:00 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
With the anticipated closure of SBN and ABQ it seems we should be hearing of a new market (or two) or at least some frequency modification in the not too distant future. I believe DEN ABQ is flown twice daily and DEN-SBN 4 x weekly.

The metal doesn't make money on the ground.

They have aircraft leaving the fleet so I'm not sure if the announcement of new cities will actually happen.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
whitewasp
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:04 pm

I flew on a Lynx Q400 from ABQ to DEN in 2011. Nice flight, nice crew. I really liked the Q over the CRJs. I actually prefer it.
 
FRNT787
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:38 pm

Quoting F9animal (Reply 7):
A program that would find profitable routes

I assume you were talking about APAS. The system does not find profitable routes. It's about data analysis, to help understand all the information piling in through the company. On their website, it looks like both Southwest and Delta are using APAS as well.

If the airplane can be used more effectively elsewhere, then the station should be closed immediately. There is no point to operating a route that doesn't cut it. Spirit closes routes constantly.

It's just good business.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
I think it is much more than that, I think they're reinventing the route map.

Oh I agree. I think the hurdle going forward is that, with DEN, they have bulk. Replacing 2- or 3-daily routes with 2- or 3- weekly routes means that they need to find multiples of places to put their planes - or shrink. I have no problem with this new reality, but it definitely is reinventing the map.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 9):
I suppose that's a fair trade off though since B6 is doing the only nonstop to NYC while there are 10 nonstops a day to DEN between UA and WN.

Which makes the point on why battle it out on a route for sentimental reasons.  
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 14):
If the airplane can be used more effectively elsewhere, then the station should be closed immediately. There is no point to operating a route that doesn't cut it. Spirit closes routes constantly.

Cutting routes is a lot different than cutting stations, though I'm not suggesting that you think otherwise. However, they have two choices: Cut a station, incurring the cost of likely opening a new one somewhere else, or keep it open and incur the cost of holding onto money losing cities. It's a tough balance, but I agree that they have to do something.

I think it's easy to say "DEN-ABQ going away - what a sad end. They should have made it work." etc. I wish there was a magic pill that could just make these things happen, like the magic software that finds profitable routes, or the magic CEO that makes everything ok again. Unfortunately, the world isn't full of unicorns and rainbows either.

-Dave
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jfklganyc
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:04 am

Quoting THEFLLFLYER (Reply 8):
Closing down unprofitable stations like PVU, ABQ and SBN while focusing resources on the east coast with TTN and ILG.

Give me a break. If the future of your airline is riding on TTN or ILG (not secondary, but tertiary airports) you are really in trouble.

Talk about expecting the QE2 and getting a row boat...sad.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Give me a break. If the future of your airline is riding on TTN or ILG (not secondary, but tertiary airports) you are really in trouble.

Hmmm?

As stated in the CC, 90% of Frontier's business is at DEN, which is neither a secondary nor a tertiary airport.

mariner
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Flytravel
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:17 am

I suspect F9 DEN service other mid-size markets, with not much destination value, will get ultimately get cut like OKC, OMA, PDX, LIT*, MKE, DSM*, MCI and STL. All of these have WN presence and likely too much coverage on service to DEN for the market size with UA on some of these routes too. *The market has WN but no nonstop to DEN currently by WN.

Like NK, it'd probably focus on the top 18 largest MSAs**, unserved markets like MSN, destination markets like LAS, and a few others in the mix. **It doesn't have service to any airport in the Boston/New England area likely because of the long distance to DEN and existing service by two LCCs already that is B6 and WN, along with UA.

[Edited 2013-07-28 22:20:23]
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:29 am

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 18):
I suspect F9 DEN service other mid-size markets, with not much destination value, will get ultimately get cut like OKC, OMA, PDX, LIT*, MKE, DSM*, MCI and STL.

Unlike so many on a.net, I can't predict the future.

Sure, I assume that if Southwest starts DEN-DSM that would probably go. At the other end of the scale, I would be quite surprised to see STL go, given the strength of the Apple/Frontier service, with six routes plus DEN.

mariner
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Caspian27
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:39 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
They used to use the Lynx CR7s

Lynx never had CRJ-700's. You must be thinking of Horizon.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
KELPkid
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:35 am

You'd think the geography of I-25 would make the route more self-sustaining. If you don't believe me, look at the route Interstate 25 takes from Albuquerque to the Colorado border (it goes way far south after Santa Fe before cutting north). And the altitude and curves going through Raton Pass...And with WN's increasing cost base, the fares between F9 and WN should be pretty close.

And, for the life of me, I can't tell you why no one can make mainline work from ELP to DEN. WN hasn't even been brave enough to try it. F9 actually flew it for a while with 732's when they started up...sometimes direct, sometimes as a tag-on to DEN-ABQ.
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ouboy79
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:19 pm

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 18):
I suspect F9 DEN service other mid-size markets, with not much destination value, will get ultimately get cut like OKC, OMA, PDX, LIT*, MKE, DSM*, MCI and STL. All of these have WN presence and likely too much coverage on service to DEN for the market size with UA on some of these routes too. *The market has WN but no nonstop to DEN currently by WN.

We've been expecting to lose them here in OKC for a while now, but they keep hanging on.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 18):
All of these have WN presence and likely too much coverage on service to DEN for the market size with UA on some of these routes too.

BNA must be the exception WN operates a focus city in BNA with some 150 daily flights and competes directly with F9 on the DEN route. F9 actually adds a daily flight across the Summer.

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
Unlike so many on a.net, I can't predict the future.

I thought the Dickie birds could!
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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enilria
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting F9animal (Reply 7):
ABQ was one of F9s first stations
Quoting rampart (Reply 3):
This must be one of F9's first routes in the early 90s.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):

According to Frontier's schedules, it looks like Frontier is discontinuing its DEN-ABQ route after January 5, 2014 after flying this route for so many years.

It is the only Denver spoke added in their first year of operation that they have flown continuously.

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
Sure, it is - but I'm not certain it is just Southwest.

Well, I'm pretty certain.

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
When the change was announced, that Frontier would morph to ULCC

Which they are doing to attempt to compete with WN...

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 18):

I suspect F9 DEN service other mid-size markets, with not much destination value, will get ultimately get cut like OKC, OMA, PDX, LIT*, MKE, DSM*, MCI and STL.

Some may live on through flights to MCO, but the writing is on the wall for all the DEN hub routes.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier Pulling Out Of ABQ

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 24):
Which they are doing to attempt to compete with WN...

Kock me down with a feather!

In fact they're doing it to survive, but yes, Southwest is a very big part of that. It is not, however, the only part.

mariner
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