Reggaebird
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Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:46 am

I recently flew on an Air France Airbus A380 to Paris and, for the first time in my flying life, I was awakened (twice) by other passengers who were snoring. Normally, such noises are drowned out by the din/drone of the engines. I also made a video of the landing in Paris and noticed the "extreme" quiet in the cabin (especially noticeable during cabin announcements and the firm landing). Additionally, I saw the A350 flying at the Paris Air Show and noticed how quiet it was. In fact the show announcer called it the "Hushliner". I am assuming that it will be even quieter than the A380 and that makes me wonder, might modern airliners be getting too quiet for those who ride inside them?

Quiet A380 cabin (wait for cabin announcement and landing around 3:15 and 4:28 marks, respectively): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riH1sWxeGTE

Quiet A350 fly-by: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAU7h61BFiM

[Edited 2013-07-28 03:00:12]
 
777ER
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:03 am

I think its fantastic that airplanes are now getting quieter thanks to better engine technology. Will certainly enable a better sleep but yes it also means hearing others snoring which is a downside!

A more quiet engine also enables more enjoyment while flying as your better able to hear the PTV if your not using noise cancelling headphones
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mandala499
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:10 am

They are getting quieter to the extent that surrounding ground traffic now sounds very noisy...
But NIMBYs still prefer to hate the airport instead of the motorway/main road behind their houses   
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hotplane
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Thread starter):
I saw the A350 flying at the Paris Air Show and noticed how quiet it was. In fact the show announcer called it the "Hushliner". I am assuming that it will be even quieter than the A380 and

Bound to be louder in service once it has a full load. It has two less engines than the A380 so will be quieter.
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b747400erf
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:30 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
But NIMBYs still prefer to hate the airport instead of the motorway/main road behind their houses

Not a good comparison. A high wall deflects most sound from passing cars, while an airplane passing a few hundred or thousand feet over your head cannot be protected against.
 
1400mph
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:35 am

Takes all the fun out of taking-off though. Give me a good old Pratt & Whitney 747-100 any day !!

 
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:28 pm

I read an article years ago about a research project by Boeing on cabin noise. I recall that they stated that with noise cancelling technology they could pretty much drown out all static engine noise in the cabin. But test results showed that passengers on long haul flights got extremely irritated by the mindless chatter and sounds their fellow passengers caused! I think it said that 50DB of cabin engine noise was considered to be a minimum or something.

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TK787
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:44 pm

Most of my flying is long haul and I keep the iphone+noisecancelling headphones on all of the flight. Recently I was on a domestic MD88 and oh my, it was incredibly noisy even though I was in the front.
 
alexinwa
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:21 pm

I live in Auburn just south of SEA and a little further south of BFI. Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt because I am in NO way complaining.......................

When A/C are departing to the south, you can totally tell the difference between say a 320/737 and a MD80. However when the flight path reserves, when I look up and see A/C landing to the north, you can barely tell the difference in any A/C. Except for the BA 744, for some reason they love to announce in a loud way that they are here!!!  
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MIflyer12
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
But test results showed that passengers on long haul flights got extremely irritated by the mindless chatter and sounds their fellow passengers caused! I think it said that 50DB of cabin engine noise was considered to be a minimum or something.

Take an SPL meter along on a few flights. At cruise, total noise levels will be way, way above 50dB, at least on every commercial aircraft I have flown, irrespective of where seated. There's a lot of room for improvement down to that alleged noise floor of 50dB.
 
penguins
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 2):
They are getting quieter to the extent that surrounding ground traffic now sounds very noisy...
But NIMBYs still prefer to hate the airport instead of the motorway/main road behind their houses   

You seem to forget that living near an airport posses serious health risks that are not factors when you leave near cars and trains.
 
ghifty
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Reply 8):

I live in Auburn just south of SEA and a little further south of BFI. Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt because I am in NO way complaining.......................

I live in Queen Anne, very close to the canal. I think we are under some approach paths.. in any case, it is very easy to spot planes based on sound--but only if you're really trying. I haven't heard of any noise complaints!

Quoting alexinwa (Reply 8):
Except for the BA 744, for some reason they love to announce in a loud way that they are here!!!

The daily BA 744 is my favorite! Always seems to be departing when I'm off work!
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brilondon
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:49 pm

I think so as I loved to listen to the older aircraft spool up and take off with sound popping and smoky engines a spewing lots of smoke and noise. The good old days for sure.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 12):

I think so as I loved to listen to the older aircraft spool up and take off with sound popping and smoky engines a spewing lots of smoke and noise.

http://youtu.be/oq8bZlNZRe0?t=3m38s

 

[Edited 2013-07-28 11:56:17]
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thomasphoto60
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 5):
Takes all the fun out of taking-off though. Give me a good old Pratt & Whitney 747-100 any day !!




Amen Brother....


How a "real man's" jet should sound........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY2fa8an8sw

[Edited 2013-07-28 12:13:00]
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col
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:57 pm

The modern 77W is not too quiet, it is still too noisy and cramped. This month did AF380 and KL77W on trip to Europe. KL crew was better, but their 77W in economy sucks. AF crews were poor, but they have a nice aeroplane. Note to AF/KL, give KLM the 380's!!

I have yet to fly on a 748 or 787, but also believe they will be more like the 380.
 
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spinkid
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:14 pm

They are so quiet, I'm fearful one may sneak up behind me on the street and run me over the way a Prius does  

I rode in the upper deck of an A380 and absolutely loved the quiet. Has to be better working conditions for flight crew as well.

Random thought. Do in flight crew suffer from such things as tinnitis the way factory workers or others exposed to loud sounds often do?
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:24 pm

They're getting way too quiet. They other day I was getting some gas near PDX and an Air Force C-5A came in low overhead and was absolutely screaming. Brilliant. Just the way it should be.   

This is what real planes are supposed to sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdP-VMcREyg

Manly motors with some hair on their chests. Not these metrosexual can't-make-a-peep-or-it-might-disturb-someone models of today. Hrmph!  
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trnswrld
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 7):
Most of my flying is long haul and I keep the iphone+noisecancelling headphones on all of the flight. Recently I was on a domestic MD88 and oh my, it was incredibly noisy even though I was in the front.

That's weird, I always thought the MD80/DC9 aircraft were known for being extremely quiet in front of the wings. There is wind noise, but besides that you don't hear the engines at all for the most part.
 
CO777DAL
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:40 am

Not all modern aircraft are quite. There are CO now UA 737s that are real screamers.

Take this one for example. It roaring down the runway and on climb. This was a loud plane.

IAH HD Roar Continental Airlines 737-900 Take-Off First Class Houston Boeing CFM Engine
http://youtu.be/Te6vk5u4Hig
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celestar
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:06 am

I don't want to get into yet another Boeing vs Airbus but based on my personal experience, the air-con noise on Boeing, even the latest B777-300ER seems to be more noisier than AIRBUS A340 or A330. Even on A320 vs B737, I can hear the difference in noise. I am pretty certain it is related to the air-con. Perhaps, at cruising mode, the all speed circulation mode of Boeing aircraft tend to be have more noise than the Airbus make. I don't know why, but I can feel that.
 
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:30 am

Yes the A380 seems very quiet, until the usual crash landing !
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masi1157
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:45 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 20):
I don't want to get into yet another Boeing vs Airbus but based on my personal experience, the air-con noise on Boeing, even the latest B777-300ER seems to be more noisier than AIRBUS A340 or A330. Even on A320 vs B737, I can hear the difference in noise. I am pretty certain it is related to the air-con. Perhaps, at cruising mode, the all speed circulation mode of Boeing aircraft tend to be have more noise than the Airbus make. I don't know why, but I can feel that.

On A330/340 and A380 the air conditioning is virtually inaudible during cruise (except at a few spots in the cabin). On A320 family it is not quite like that, the air conditioning has a contribution to cabin noise. What you hear in the cabin, which might sound like air conditioning, is actually the boundary layer noise (outside air flowing along the fuselage skin). That is by far the dominant noise source, while engine noise only contributes in the back of the cabin during cruise (not so during climb, obviously).


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travelavnut
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:52 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 10):

You seem to forget that living near an airport posses serious health risks that are not factors when you leave near cars and trains.

That's true, but if you decide to life right next door to a major airport IMHO you should not be allowed to whine about it  
Quoting Max Q (Reply 21):

Yes the A380 seems very quiet, until the usual crash landing !

What a weird thing to say....
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Grisee08
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:04 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 5):
Give me a good old Pratt & Whitney 747-100 any day

You do mean Pratt & Whitney JT9D-3 right? P&W never made 747s  unless you meant that as in Pratt & Whitney JT9D EQUIPPED 747-100. Sorry man, not tryin to step on your toes or anything lol

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 14):
How a "real man's" jet should sound........

  

I do like the sound of a BR715 starting/running on a 717. I don't know what it is about that engine, but it has some GREAT sounds to it. It definitely won't be classified in my book as a "boring" engine. It may not be extremely loud like it's the JT8D on its DC-9 cousin, but it is, in its own right, a superb engine. That and the RB211-22B engine.
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celestar
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting masi1157 (Reply 22):

Well, can you really share with me why when I sit in a Boeing vs an AIRBUS, for sure, the cabin noise are much quieter on Airbus than Boeing. Do agree with you the Airbus A320 seems more noise than A330/340, is there a reason for A330/340 to be so 'quiet'?
 
LY777
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:51 am

Quoting col (Reply 15):
The modern 77W is not too quiet, it is still too noisy and cramped

It is not the 77W which is cramped. It is AF/KL which makes them cramped!
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HBGDS
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:54 am

Wasn't there a strange complaint during the early EIS of the A380 with either Simgapore or Emirates that the cabin crew were so bothered by the relative quiet, they had trouble falling asleep in the crew bunks?

Anyway, Airbus used the "quiet" claim some years back to try and sell more A340s just as it was becoming clear that the 4 vs 2 engine fight was ending. SOmthing like a comic bubble with a pax saying "stop snorring" and the snore, of course being on the other end of the aircraft.
 
masi1157
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:00 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 25):
Well, can you really share with me why when I sit in a Boeing vs an AIRBUS, for sure, the cabin noise are much quieter on Airbus than Boeing. Do agree with you the Airbus A320 seems more noise than A330/340, is there a reason for A330/340 to be so 'quiet'?

I can't tell you much about Boeing cabin noise. I could tell you for hours and hours about Airbus cabin noise, but I am afraid I am not allowed to. But you are absolutely right, the A320 family is noisier (also, but not only because of the air cond) than A330/340. And they again are "noisy" compared to A380. It had a lot to do with lessons learnt. But it is also easier to make larger A/C quiet, the bigger frame height helps a lot.


Gruß, masi1157
 
Farzan
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:36 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 7):

No way, it's hard to believe you could hear the engines at all up there. My experince is that the only noise you hear in the front of an MD 80 or even DC9 is wind noise. (after like 100's of SAS flights on the type).

Quoting Max Q (Reply 21):

Are you for real?

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 14):
How a "real man's" jet should sound........

You see there's the thing. As a spotter nothing could beat the noise of a 727-200 taking off from Gothenburg up aginst the rocks on the North end of the runway, oh man. But as a passenger, well the 380 upper deck is just heaven in the skies.
 
Grisee08
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:11 am

Quoting Farzan (Reply 29):
My experince is that the only noise you hear in the front of an MD 80 or even DC9 is wind noise.

I second that.. I generally only hear the engines at take-off, but once we pick up speed, all I hear is the whoosh of air up front. I usually choose to sit in the back just so I CAN hear the engines.
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Farzan
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 30):

I second that.. I generally only hear the engines at take-off, but once we pick up speed, all I hear is the whoosh of air up front. I usually choose to sit in the back just so I CAN hear the engines.

 
 
masi1157
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I read an article years ago about a research project by Boeing on cabin noise. I recall that they stated that with noise cancelling technology they could pretty much drown out all static engine noise in the cabin.

That is way too optimistic. You can reduce low frequency noise by a couple of dB, but in the mid to high frequency range that would require very closely spaced "error microphones" and actuators (loudspeakers). And even if you wouldn't attempt it for airborne noise and with loudspeakers, but rather with vibration absorbers/shakers on the fuselage to tackle boundary layer noise (somebody called it "wind noise"), you wouldn't gain much reduction, but install "tons of weight". The problem is, that this noise is not tonal (but broadband), is not generated by isolated sources (but all along the fuselage), is not transmitted via single transmission paths (but rather through all of the A/C skin), and the receiver volume is much too large (the cabin is hundreds of wavelengths long, even at 1kHz).

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I think it said that 50DB of cabin engine noise was considered to be a minimum or something.

Even the quiet A380 is some 20dB(A) above that threshold. And that would mean that you still have to cancel out 99% of the incoming sound power to get there. Sounds like my job is safe.


Gruß, masi1157
 
4holer
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting Farzan (Reply 29):
As a spotter nothing could beat the noise of a 727-200 taking off from Gothenburg up aginst the rocks on the North end of the runway,

Wanna Bet?
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Convair 880! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isP1LVVZ6nU
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thomasphoto60
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 33):
Wanna Bet?
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Convair 880! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isP1LVVZ6nU

Very, very nice, smoke and earth shattering noise.......
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
olliejolly
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:00 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 33):

Wanna Bet?
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Convair 880! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isP1LVVZ6nU


I have to say, I saw a Small Planet Airlines 733 taking off at MAN a couple of weeks ago, and I can tell you now, the right hand engine was putting out enough smoke to give that Convair a run for its money!

Not quite as loud though. I guess I prefer a small amount of noise, I find when I watch the A380 at MAN, I always hope it'll roar down the runway, but you can barely hear it from the RVP.
 
col
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 26):
It is not the 77W which is cramped. It is AF/KL which makes them cramped!

Yep, you are right. Sadly the 777 used to be a very nice long hauler until they started the GE 77L/77W with the 10 across. Have flown on about 130 of the things, trying to stay away from a 77W is pretty impossible now, those nice folks at Boeing made it too good!!
 
planespotting
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 5):
Takes all the fun out of taking-off though. Give me a good old Pratt & Whitney 747-100 any day !!

I used to live right under the departure path for 32R at ORD. If the windows were open during the night and they were using that runway for departure, the Evergreen 747-200 blasting off at 1 or 2 a.m. sounded like some kind of rocket launch. The first time it happened when my in-laws were in town my father-in-law said the next morning that he was getting a little concerned at the peak roar, thinking a plane might actually be about to crash right next to the house, haha.

That is a real airplane sound. Most of the time anymore though the best airplane sounds I hear are from JT8Ds on MD80s.
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LH707330
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting ghifty (Reply 11):
The daily BA 744 is my favorite! Always seems to be departing when I'm off work!

That one's always loud because it's so low and has the distinctive RR buzz.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 11):
in any case, it is very easy to spot planes based on sound--but only if you're really trying.

I live up on Capitol Hill and can tell a number of them apart, the easiest are the A320s, I've trained some of m buddies to do it too 
 
spacecadet
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 19):
Not all modern aircraft are quite. There are CO now UA 737s that are real screamers.

I just flew a round trip transcon on a 737-800 (if you'd told me I'd be flying a 737 transcon 25 years ago, I'd have laughed at you), and it was the same - something about those engines, they just buzzsaw all the way up if you're in front of them. Normally even on "loud" jets you hear the buzzsaw only up until the throttles cut back just after takeoff, then it dies out and gets replaced by the dull roar of wind noise. But on those 737's, it just never stops - I got used to it after a while, but I was hearing the buzzsaw even during cruise.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 23):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 21):

Yes the A380 seems very quiet, until the usual crash landing !

What a weird thing to say....

It was a clear joke about the firm landing that's common in most of these A380 landing videos, including the one posted at the top.

Regarding quiet airplanes, I also travel by train quite often and trains are much quieter than planes. If I'm going a long distance on a train, I always make sure to upgrade to either a private room or at least a first class coach cabin because of the noise from other passengers - it can be *very* annoying if you're going to be stuck with the same people for 12+ hours and there's a) a party going on, b) a screaming baby or two, c) a couple of chatterboxes near you, and/or d) snorers. I've had all those experiences on airplanes as well but the noise from the plane at least ensures that if there are a few rows of separation, it gets drowned out.

I haven't flown on an A380 yet but I'm a little apprehensive about being on a long-haul flight where the plane itself is that quiet. And airplane upgrades to a less noisy cabin are a lot more expensive.
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RussianJet
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 39):
I haven't flown on an A380 yet but I'm a little apprehensive about being on a long-haul flight where the plane itself is that quiet. And airplane upgrades to a less noisy cabin are a lot more expensive.

While it's noticeably quieter than anything else I've flown on (2nd place goes to the A346), it's weird at first simply because you're not used to it, but ultimately easy to get used to and no problem at all. I was lower deck, just behind the wing though, so would guess that it gets way more eerily quiet up top forward of the wings.
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brilondon
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RE: Modern Airliners Too Quiet?

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):
Quoting brilondon (Reply 12):

I think so as I loved to listen to the older aircraft spool up and take off with sound popping and smoky engines a spewing lots of smoke and noise.

http://youtu.be/oq8bZlNZRe0?t=3m38s

 

Thanks, that is what I am talking about...
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!