bioyuki
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FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:05 am

SF Gate is reporting:

"All foreign airlines are now being advised to use a GPS system to guide landings onto the main runways at San Francisco International Airport, federal aviation officials said Sunday, a response to concern that some pilots for foreign carriers aren't adept enough at touching down manually."

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...e-GPS-for-SFO-landings-4692348.php

Anybody have the link to the actual press release? I looked on the FAA site but couldn't find it.

[Edited 2013-07-28 21:07:11]

[Edited 2013-07-28 21:09:23]
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NAV20
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:15 am

Link here that should work:

"All foreign airlines are now being advised to use a GPS system to guide landings onto the main runways at San Francisco International Airport, federal aviation officials said Sunday, a response to concern that some pilots for foreign carriers aren't adept enough at touching down manually.

"The concern over what are known as "visual approaches" - in which pilots do not rely solely on their cockpit instruments - arose after the July 6 crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214, which left three people dead and about 180 injured.

"Since then, pilots for the South Korean airline and other foreign carriers have had more aborted landings than usual at SFO while attempting visual approaches, said the Federal Aviation Administration, which did not provide exact numbers."


GPS-for-SFO-landings-4692348.php" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...e-GPS-for-SFO-landings-4692348.php
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Norcal773
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:32 am

Very interesting. I guess modern aviation has really changed if visual approaches have become that hard for some.
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blueflyer
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:56 am

If flying visual landings is an issue, here's hoping the EU finds a way to include that in their next blacklist update... The threat of being banned from all EU airports should be enough of an incentive to encourage international carriers to make sure their pilots are not just computer jockeys...
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wjcandee
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:20 am

Pathetic.

If they can't shoot a visual on a clear day with no wind -- or, worse, if they are uncomfortable doing so -- then they shouldn't be in either seat on the flight deck of a transport-category aircraft.
 
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:42 am

I am always the LAST person to defend a pilot, but maybe we should consider that there might be more to this suggestion than meets the eye...
 
NAV20
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 6):
Interesting that this only applies to "foreign" airlines' pilots. I guess pilots flying for US airlines belong to a different master race

No, UALWN, it's just that you can be pretty confident that US/European pilots have been trained properly, and in particular have done a lot of manual/visual flying. Unfortunately there's plenty of evidence out there that pilots from some other parts of the world are NOT always trained that way, and that a proportion of them are much too dependent on the autopilot and the ILS:-

"As the Asiana Airlines Inc. (020560) jet neared Los Angeles International Airport, Captain Vic Hooper told his Korean co-pilot to make a visual approach, meaning he’d manually fly instead of letting automation do the work.

"The co-pilot froze, leaving them too high and off course, Hooper said about the incident, which occurred several years ago. Hooper said he had to take over the controls to get the Boeing Co. (BA) 777 back on track.

“I don’t need to know this,” Hooper said the co-pilot told him later, explaining why a maneuver that’s second nature to most U.S. airline pilots rattled him. “We just don’t do this.”

"U.S. crash investigators are examining the manual flying skills and cockpit teamwork among the pilots of Asiana Flight 214 as they determine why the 777 crashed in San Francisco on July 6, killing three teenaged girls from China. Two passengers remain in critical condition at San Francisco General Hospital and Trauma Center, according to a statement yesterday."


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...al-flying-former-trainers-say.html

PS the good news is that the ILS at SFO is due to be switched on again on 22nd. August. Let's hope there are no more accidents before then.

[Edited 2013-07-29 03:53:33]
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jporterfi
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:08 am

Quoting bioyuki (Thread starter):
some pilots for foreign carriers aren't adept enough at touching down manually

Are you kidding me? If they mean "some pilots...aren't adept enough at touching down manually at a challenging airport such as SFO" then fine. But for pilots to have trouble with visual approaches on a clear day with all equipment working? It doesn't seem safe, and I don't think foreign airlines would allow this. Something tells me there's more to this story...
 
0newair0
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:26 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 8):
Are you kidding me? If they mean "some pilots...aren't adept enough at touching down manually at a challenging airport such as SFO" then fine.

Sorry but there's nothing challenging about the SFO approach. Yes, the approach is over water so you lose some visual cues but when you have a PAPI to look at on a clear day with no wind there's absolutely nothing challenging about that approach.
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zeke
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting bioyuki (Thread starter):
I looked on the FAA site but couldn't find it.

Pilots do not get press releases. I looked at the current FAA NOATMs, the FAA AIM, and latest chart cycle, I could not see that reference. It might be a directive to the controllers to clear part 129 carriers via the RNAV approach.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 2):
I guess modern aviation has really changed if visual approaches have become that hard for some.

Even US carriers, with FAA pilots go around in SFO.

FYI, in Australian ATC will not offer any US aircraft (91/121, or Military) a visual approach, in fact they offer them to local carriers only.
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hoons90
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:34 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
No, UALWN, it's just that you can be pretty confident that US/European pilots have been trained properly, and in particular have done a lot of manual/visual flying. Unfortunately there's plenty of evidence out there that pilots from some other parts of the world are NOT always trained that way, and that a proportion of them are much too dependent on the autopilot and the ILS:-

There are a few airports in Korea that get regular (more than daily) service and are not equipped with ILS, including RKJY and RKNW. Pilots have to land manually there, no? PUS runway 18 has a rather tricky circling approach that has to be done manually as well.

Some other airports that see regular KE or OZ service and have no ILS include VVCR and UHSS.
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pvjin
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:49 pm

This definitely proves that certain airlines should rethink their policies regarding training and manual flying... I wouldn't want to board any plane which has a crew that can't fly the plane manually anymore.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 11):
There are a few airports in Korea that get regular (more than daily) service and are not equipped with ILS, including RKJY and RKNW. Pilots have to land manually there, no? PUS runway 18 has a rather tricky circling approach that has to be done manually as well.
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 11):
There are a few airports in Korea that get regular (more than daily) service and are not equipped with ILS, including RKJY and RKNW. Pilots have to land manually there, no? PUS runway 18 has a rather tricky circling approach that has to be done manually as well.

However do those airports receive big airliners such as 777, ones that mainly fly to the US and other big longhaul destinations?

I would imagine that some regional pilot who flies into small airports with no ILS in a regular basis probably has better manual flying skills than someone who has flown longhaul airliners for years mainly to destinations with ILS and often long flights, amount of landings compared to flight hours is obviously higher for someone flying short routes too.
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RDUDDJI
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 6):
Interesting that this only applies to "foreign" airlines' pilots. I guess pilots flying for US airlines belong to a different master race that can hand land any aircraft in any circumstances... unless they happen to be WN pilots and then they can crash-land their plane on the runway breaking the nose landing gear to pieces...

That's the way the newspaper *reported* that the FAA said it (it's more sensational that way). I suspect what the FAA meant was for pilots "unfamiliar" with the airport to use GPS.
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hoons90
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
However do those airports receive big airliners such as 777, ones that mainly fly to the US and other big longhaul destinations?

PUS (RKPK) Runway 18R has no ILS as it requires a circling approach due to the mountain right in front of it. It's the same one involved in the Air China 767 crash in 2002. KE flies several A330s a day into the airport (from Bangkok, Tokyo, Osaka etc). OZ used to send 767s there but now it's mainly Airbus narrowbodies.
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mm320cap
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:08 pm

It's worse than this. I flew into SFO yesterday and noticed I had hold fuel added for "flag carrier operations". I called the dispatcher to ask what that meant. He told me that after the Asiana crash and then the Eva incident mere weeks later, where a 777-300 was at 600' around 5nm from the runway, SFO was implementing the following: Side-by-side approaches will be suspended anytime ANY foreign carrier has an arrival, regardless of the weather.

I was in shock. He told me that some pilots don't get to SFO very often and so they may not be familiar with the LOC only type approach. My response was that we aren't talking about a LOC only approach. The side by side approaches in question have been VISUAL approach, with a fully operational PAPI on both runways. He informed me this procedure would be in effect until Aug 22 when the ILS would return.

Is this truly what aviation has come to? Terrifying
 
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 15):
SFO was implementing the following: Side-by-side approaches will be suspended anytime ANY foreign carrier has an arrival, regardless of the weather.

I was in shock. He told me that some pilots don't get to SFO very often and so they may not be familiar with the LOC only type approach.

Get the feeling that they'll get a pretty 'unprintable' answer if they tell any Qantas or BA captains that they're not fit to carry out 'side by side' visual approaches, mm320cap.  

Mind you, even though the 'accident cause' seems very likely to turn out to be a case of 'insufficient power,' there's no doubt that Asiana 214 wasn't lined up with the runway, either? From the diagrams I've seen they were quite a long way right of track? Indeed, it's at least arguable that the pilots may have been concentrating too hard on lining up, and that's one reason why they missed the problem of inadequate power/speed/altitude until it was too late?

[Edited 2013-07-29 06:34:49]
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mm320cap
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:46 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
Get the feeling that they'll get a pretty 'unprintable' answer if they tell any Qantas or BA captains that they're not fit to carry out 'side by side' visual approaches, mm320cap.  

Mind you, even though the 'accident cause' seems very likely to turn out to be a case of 'insufficient power,' there's no doubt that Asiana 214 wasn't lined up with the runway, either? From the diagrams I've seen they were quite a long way right of track? Indeed, it's at least arguable that the pilots may have been concentrating too hard on lining up, and that's one reason why they missed the problem of inadequate power/speed/altitude until it was too late?

Couldn't agree with you more. This is one of the more ridiculous mandates I've seen come out in some time. To lump the entire foreign world into this category is baffling to me.

With regards to the Asiana crash, I'm really hesitant to speculate until the final report complete with the CVR and FDR data is released.

One thing that I do know, is that the easy answer is just to blame the pilots for being "incompetent". But dismissing the issue so flippantly is dangerous, in my opinion. The real question to me is WHY are some pilots struggling to complete a task which should be as basic as a visual approach with PAPI guidance? And more importantly, how do we fix it..... fast. Turning the ILS back on merely puts a bandaid on a clearly infected wound. It certainly doesn't fix the problem.

[Edited 2013-07-29 06:46:58]

[Edited 2013-07-29 06:47:52]

[Edited 2013-07-29 06:49:28]
 
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zeke
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:00 pm

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 17):
The real question to me is WHY are some pilots struggling to complete a task which should be as basic as a visual approach with PAPI guidance? And more importantly, how do we fix it..... fast.

I would wager more go-arounds are performed by US carriers in SFO than Part 129 carriers. There is a reason why the NTSB has asked for the historical records from the FAA, they are looking for trends. I suspect the trends will show that the larger the aircraft, the more go-arounds.

A "normal" visual approach that an airliner would perform would be to to join downwind or base at 1500'. It is not normal practice around the world to join downwind at 10,000 ft, and have an ATC speed requirement imposed above the maximum flap speed.

The old saying, one can either go down, or slow down, not both. Also, the slower one is, the less effective speed brake becomes.
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JAAlbert
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
FYI, in Australian ATC will not offer any US aircraft (91/121, or Military) a visual approach, in fact they offer them to local carriers only.

Maybe because pilots flying domestic routes land and take off more frequently in a day than do the long haul international pilots.
 
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
All foreign airlines are now being advised to use a GPS system to guide landings onto the main runways at San Francisco International Airport, federal aviation officials said Sunday, a response to concern that some pilots for foreign carriers aren't adept enough at touching down manually.

Let me ask what may be a stupid question: if using GPS assistance/RNAV approach is easier/safer than a visual (presumeably it is or the FAA wouldn't be asking for it in these circumstances), why isn't it used routinely for everyone when the ILS is down?
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NAV20
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 20):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):All foreign airlines are now being advised to use a GPS system to guide landings onto the main runways at San Francisco International Airport, federal aviation officials said Sunday, a response to concern that some pilots for foreign carriers aren't adept enough at touching down manually.

Just to protect myself, hivue, it was bioyuki who posted 'reply1,' not me?  

[Edited 2013-07-29 07:36:55]
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hivue
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:36 pm

.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 21):
Just to protect myself, hivue, it was bioyuki who posted that, not me?

Sorry. I quoted from your quote of the PR. I should have used the original.
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NAV20
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:52 pm

Fair enough, hivue, thanks.  

Must admit though that my (limited) flying (mostly sailplanes) included very little of the electronic stuff (just couldn't afford it) - but I at LEAST learned to land an aeroplane. Just a matter of keeping height/speed/direction pretty well right, flaring at the right moment - not too early, not too late, and, in my experience, definitely not too high - and then holding everything steady until she settled.........

These guys had everything in their favour - lots of training, lots of experience, daylight, clear weather, a huge clearly-marked runway, next to no wind..............

How could they possibly have stuffed up on this (fatal) scale? Beats me.........?

[Edited 2013-07-29 08:15:13]
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hivue
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:22 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
How could they possibly have stuffed up on this (fatal) scale? Beats me.........?

It's sounding like visual approaches in large commercial aircraft into busy airports in good weather may not be the piece of cake it's been made out by some to be --

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
FYI, in Australian ATC will not offer any US aircraft (91/121, or Military) a visual approach, in fact they offer them to local carriers only.

It would be nice to have the actual wording of the FAA directive. This all sounds very strange to me.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:24 pm

The SF Chronicle article cites an FAA "prepared statement" allegedly dated July 28. There is no such statement anywhere on the FAA website.

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
I looked at the current FAA NOATMs, the FAA AIM, and latest chart cycle, I could not see that reference.

   I also checked the FAA news releases and twitter feed. Nothing. "Foreign airlines" (as quoted in the OP) is not a phrase the FAA would use. None of my AC or NZ contacts who fly into SFO have heard anything of the kind. So unless someone comes up with a real (official) source, I think this story is garbage.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:29 pm

So what about a foreign airline that flies something similar to an A320 that does not have GPS on board however has the ability to do the FMS visual to 28R, would that not be allowed anymore?
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zeke
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 19):
Maybe because pilots flying domestic routes land and take off more frequently in a day than do the long haul international pilots.

More to do with knowing the visual landmarks and what the runway environment look like to determine if one is in fact visual and following the correct procedure. This is the current visual approach chart for RW 28 at SFO http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1308/00375QUIETBRIDGE_VIS28LR.PDF

In Melbourne for example there is the "old" Melbourne airport (Essendon) that has a similar runway alignment to RW 27 at MEL. There were numerous cases of international carriers unfamiliar with the landmarks lined up with the wrong airport.

This has been recognized for a long time, have a look at the NASA webpage dating back 20 years http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/directline/dl3_visual.htm

Quoting hivue (Reply 20):
why isn't it used routinely for everyone when the ILS is down?

It reduces the airport capacity as the aircraft need to be spaced further apart due to the way the approaches are designed. I will leave it up to you to work out who benefits if more aircraft use the facility.
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bioyuki
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 15):
It's worse than this. I flew into SFO yesterday and noticed I had hold fuel added for "flag carrier operations". I called the dispatcher to ask what that meant. He told me that after the Asiana crash and then the Eva incident mere weeks later, where a 777-300 was at 600' around 5nm from the runway, SFO was implementing the following: Side-by-side approaches will be suspended anytime ANY foreign carrier has an arrival, regardless of the weather.

I was in shock. He told me that some pilots don't get to SFO very often and so they may not be familiar with the LOC only type approach. My response was that we aren't talking about a LOC only approach. The side by side approaches in question have been VISUAL approach, with a fully operational PAPI on both runways. He informed me this procedure would be in effect until Aug 22 when the ILS would return.

Is this truly what aviation has come to? Terrifying

Unbelievable. This will likely lower SFO's arrival rate during peak hours and cause some amount of congestion, no?
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jfidler
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:13 pm

Could this extend to other airports? I've heard the DCA Potomac River approach is one of the most difficult in the US. At the same time DCA also sees no scheduled widebodies and just a handful of international flights, so maybe it wouldn't be much of an issue anyway.
 
Norcal773
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
I would wager more go-arounds are performed by US carriers in SFO than Part 129 carriers. There is a reason why the NTSB has asked for the historical records from the FAA, they are looking for trends. I suspect the trends will show that the larger the aircraft, the more go-arounds.

They probably do, but then again there are more US carriers landing at SFO on any given day than foreign carriers by far so your point is moot. That's like saying there are more SF 49er fans in San Francisco than in LA.

I just think every pilot landing at SFO is on High alert and if they don;t like something they'd have dealt with before the OZ accident, they play it safe and initiate a go-around which is perfectly okay.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 20):
Let me ask what may be a stupid question: if using GPS assistance/RNAV approach is easier/safer than a visual (presumeably it is or the FAA wouldn't be asking for it in these circumstances), why isn't it used routinely for everyone when the ILS is down?

It is safer, but it shouldn't be necessary. Someone who holds an ATP (or the Korean equivalent) should be able to land his or her aircraft visually. It is something you learn from day 1. If the pilot can't land visually they shouldn't be in the flight deck and shouldn't posses those certificates.

Quoting hivue (Reply 24):
It's sounding like visual approaches in large commercial aircraft into busy airports in good weather may not be the piece of cake it's been made out by some to be --

It probably isn't anywhere near as easy as many Private pilots or armchair pilots make it out to be. But at 10,000 hours with an ATP the pilot should be able to land it. Your skills should be high enough to accomplish that landing visually.
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 4):
If they can't shoot a visual on a clear day with no wind --

In the ten or so times I've flown into SFO I was plagued with the sea layer of fog all but twice. Once as a "Y" pax UA actually shuttled us over to OAK.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 6):
Interesting that this only applies to "foreign" airlines' pilots. I guess pilots flying for US airlines belong to a different master race that can hand land any aircraft in any circumstances.

Don't most domestic carriers use RNP/GPS technology at SFO. I believe SFO was the first airport in the lower 48 to install the ground base portion of the equipment PSP and DCA were close behind.

It is my understanding foreign older airline companies are slow to install it in their older airframes. Although it gets less expensive; down from a million a few years ago to around a half a million today. It is my understanding RNP/GPS is now standard issue on new Boeing aircraft: Airbus, not so much.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:58 pm

I think its understandable that there is a back-lash as the result of the OZ crash. It's also exposing the fact that many airlines execute only IL approaches. The fewer visual approaches they do over time, the rustier their skill set. If the VNAV approach isn't checked in sim rides (say by OZ, KE etc), those pilots are unlikely to be as proficient at visual flying.

SFO is not a tough approach. There are plenty of cues to work with on the 28s including the PAPI system. This accident though exposed a problem with some airlines lack of VNAV experience and/or training. Its part of the industry's learning process from a major accident.
 
freeze3192
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 6):
Interesting that this only applies to "foreign" airlines' pilots. I guess pilots flying for US airlines belong to a different master race that can hand land any aircraft in any circumstances...

Damn right we can!
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freeze3192
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 33):
I think its understandable that there is a back-lash as the result of the OZ crash. It's also exposing the fact that many airlines execute only IL approaches. The fewer visual approaches they do over time, the rustier their skill set. If the VNAV approach isn't checked in sim rides (say by OZ, KE etc), those pilots are unlikely to be as proficient at visual flying.

SFO is not a tough approach. There are plenty of cues to work with on the 28s including the PAPI system. This accident though exposed a problem with some airlines lack of VNAV experience and/or training. Its part of the industry's learning process from a major accident.

VNAV does not equal visual approach. Two completely different things.
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 35):
VNAV does not equal visual approach. Two completely different things

You're correct, my apologies. VFR would be the a more accurate term I believe?
 
cubastar
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 29):
've heard the DCA Potomac River approach is one of the most difficult in the US. At the same time DCA also sees no scheduled widebodies and just a handful of international flights, so maybe it wouldn't be much of an issue anyway.

I disagree that the River Visual approach is difficult. It is a VISUAL approach and there are landmarks on the Jepp sheet that are easily followed along with altitude recommendations (some mandatory). It is actually a great approach and not at all hard to do. You can even use the autopilot (manually) although that takes all of the fun out of the approach.

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 33):
SFO is not a tough approach. There are plenty of cues to work with on the 28s including the PAPI system.

I agree wholeheartedly!

I truly believe that the airlines and the manufacturers have led the pilots down the wrong lane by mandating overuse of automation on almost all occasions. In fact, I have seen an excellent training film (it is available on U tube, I believe) and it is still in use at American Airlines I am told. (No, I did not fly for American)

People on here occasionally use the phrase "Aviate, Navigate, and Communicate". Well, don't ever forget, you can "AVIATE" just as easily flying manually as you can automatically. (No, don't mention Cat III's or some such similar mandated situation.)

That brings to mind also; even if you are doing automatic approaches, you STILL must MONITOR, The latest OZ at SFO comes to mind and also, the Turkish 737 in Amsterdam, (i think)
 
UALWN
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 34):
Damn right we can!

Hey, don't remove the second part of my post. Yep, the one about WN...
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
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Aesma
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
“I don’t need to know this,” Hooper said the co-pilot told him later, explaining why a maneuver that’s second nature to most U.S. airline pilots rattled him. “We just don’t do this.”

Wow !

I'm not a pilot (yet) but from following many accidents the past few years, it's really not the situation I would find the most difficult to handle. What about airports surrounded by mountains where you have to circle to land at night or in fog or things like that ?
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lightsaber
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
FYI, in Australian ATC will not offer any US aircraft (91/121, or Military) a visual approach, in fact they offer them to local carriers only.

Visual approach for hommies only?  

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bioyuki
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 25):
   I also checked the FAA news releases and twitter feed. Nothing. "Foreign airlines" (as quoted in the OP) is not a phrase the FAA would use. None of my AC or NZ contacts who fly into SFO have heard anything of the kind. So unless someone comes up with a real (official) source, I think this story is garbage.

The writer of the story said he got the information from the FAA Public Affairs Office, specifically Ian Gregor of the Western-Pacific region:

http://www.faa.gov/news/contact_information/
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KPWMSpotter
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting cubastar (Reply 37):
In fact, I have seen an excellent training film (it is available on U tube, I believe) and it is still in use at American Airlines I am told. (No, I did not fly for American)

Yes, it's still available; "Children of Magenta", it's a film of an American Airlines training session. Very applicable to this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3kREPMzMLk
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
What about airports surrounded by mountains where you have to circle to land at night or in fog or things like that ?

At least in the US, many airlines issue only a VMC only circling limitation on pilot certificates.

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TheRedBaron
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:20 pm

WARNING Speculative post ahead!....

Playing the devil advocate here, my view is that maybe the airport authority in SFO know the CVR and a lot of details of the Asiana Crash, then they instructed some planes to keep their altitude or make a GA, (Eva), and they discovered a trend, and that combined with the posibility that the reason of the Asiana Crash is a blunder or epic proportions, tey are playing it safe, come hell or high water.

I really cant explain or fathom as to why they are going to such measures to "protect" SFO. But I guess that if I discovered something REALLY wrong I would go that route.

I have landed more than 30 times in SFO and more than half on runways 28 (L or R), I have never experienced a GA..so I guess they *may* be overreacting, but since we still dont know the full investigation....I think we can entertain the possibility that the crash as revealed more than just a sequence or mistakes on the cockpit...

/end speculative post

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wjcandee
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 33):
This accident though exposed a problem with some airlines lack of VNAV experience and/or training. Its part of the industry's learning process from a major accident.

This EXACT problem was identified by AA, UA and other US carriers almost 20 years ago, and they implemented courses on how properly to use automation and what automation to use. See, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZDjkIjuHGE in which AA Training Academy's Captain Warren Vanderburgh 'splains it in a way even civilians can understand. (He won a Flight Safety Foundation award for the program of which this automation unit is a part.)

In recent years, I'm guessing that the new geniuses running the operations departments are taking a different course, even at the American carriers. That Captain Dave's blog regularly talks about how the folks in the Schoolhouse are discouraging the use of the stick, rudder and throttles -- Dave, a true stick-and-rudder guy, now sarcastically calls them the "Emergency Flight Controls" -- is an indication of this new/old mode of thinking.

It still amazes me how American culture routinely dismisses history, and fails to embrace hard-learned lessons from the past.
 
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zeke
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting mm320cap (Reply 15):
SFO was implementing the following: Side-by-side approaches will be suspended anytime ANY foreign carrier has an arrival, regardless of the weather.

I looked at the NOTAMS etc, there was not reference to additional delays or suspension of parallel approaches, where is your dispatcher getting their information from ? a.net ?

Quote:

Data Current as of: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 23:30:00 UTC
KSFO SAN FRANCISCO INTL !SFO 07/157 SFO SVC TMPA SEE ATCCC MSG TIL 1307300659 !SFO 07/155 SFO OBST TOWER 1483 (262 AGL) 5.2 NW LGTS OTS (ASR 1010563) WEF 1307291656-1308131656 !SFO 07/151 (KSFO A1481/13) SFO RWY 10R/28L CLSD WEF 1307302200-1307302359 !SFO 07/150 (KSFO A1482/13) SFO TWY L BTN RWY 10L/28R AND RWY 10R/28L CLSD WEF 1307311500-1307312100 !SFO 07/149 SFO TWY P BTN RWY 10L/28R AND RWY 10R/28L CLSD WEF 1307301500-1307302100 !SFO 07/148 (KSFO A1479/13) SFO RWY 1R/19L CLSD WEF 1307300700-1307301300 !SFO 07/134 (KSFO A1458/13) SFO TWY C BTN TWY W AND APCH END RWY 28L CLSD LGTD AND BARRICADED 0700-1500 DLY WEF 1307290700-1308031500 !SFO 07/133 (KSFO A1457/13) SFO TWY P BTN RWY 10R/28L AND TWY C CLSD LGTD AND BARRICADED 0700-1500 DLY WEF 1307290700-1308011500 !SFO 07/132 (KSFO A1456/13) SFO TWY N BTN RWY 10R/28L AND TWY C CLSD LGTD AND BARRICADED 0700-1500 DLY WEF 1307290700-1308011500 !SFO 07/131 (KSFO A1455/13) SFO RWY 28R CLSD TKOF 1500-1900 DLY WEF 1307291500-1308031900 !SFO 07/130 (KSFO A1454/13) SFO RWY 10L/28R CLSD 0700-1500 DLY WEF 1307290700-1308031500 !SFO 07/109 SFO OBST TOWER 1567 (311 AGL) 5.0 NW LGTS OTS (ASR 1205149) WEF 1307210502-1308050502 !SFO 07/101 SFO OBST TOWER 1487 (261 AGL) 5.1 NW LGTS OTS (ASR 1010565) WEF 1307190545-1308030545 !SFO 07/082 SFO OBST TOWER 1810 (976 AGL) 9.1 NNW LGTS OTS (ASR 1001289) WEF 1307151721-1307301721 !SFO 07/076 SFO OBST CRANE UNKN (318 AGL) 1 WNW (373718N1222343W) FLAGGED/LGTD WEF 1307151400-1403020100 !SFO 06/011 (KSFO A1066/13) SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R IM OTS TIL 1308222359 !SFO 06/010 (KSFO A1065/13) SFO NAV LDA RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359 !SFO 06/009 (KSFO A1062/13) SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R CAT 2/3 NA WEF 1306011400-1308222359 !SFO 06/008 (KSFO A1064/13) SFO RWY 28R RVRT OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359 !SFO 06/005 (KSFO A1056/13) SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359 !SFO 06/004 (KSFO A1053/13) SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359 !SFO 06/003 (KSFO A1051/13) SFO RWY 28R ALS OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359 !SFO 02/067 SFO TWY Z1 NORTHBOUND ENTRANCE CLSD TO RWY 10R TO JET ACFT AND FOUR ENGINE TURBOPROPS WEF 1302282334-1308312300 !SFO 12/040 SFO OBST CRANE 208 (195 AGL) .34 W (373711N1222302W) FLAGGED/LGTD 1500-2359 DLY WEF 1212071500-1310162359 !SFO 11/098 SFO OBST CRANE UNKN (300 AGL) 200 SW ATCT LIGHTED AND FLAGGED WEF 1212011600-1312311600 !SFO 09/056 SFO OBST MULTI CRANE UNKN (230 AGL) 200 SW ATCT LIGHTED AND FLAGGED WEF 1209181400 !SFO 07/027 (KSFO A1190/11) SFO APRON BOARDING AREA E/E60-E67 CLSD !SFO 04/063 (KSFO A0730/11) SFO TWY TAXILANES 5,5A,5B,6,6A,6B CMSD ASPH/UNLGTD !FDC 3/6869 (KSFO A1416/13) SFO FI/T SID SAN FRANCISCO INTL, SAN FRANCISCO, CA. EUGEN SEVEN DEPARTURE... GAP FIVE DEPARTURE... OFF SHORE SIX DEPARTURE... PORTE FOUR DEPARTURE... QUIET FOUR DEPARTURE... REBAS FOUR DEPARTURE... SAN FRANCISCO EIGHT DEPARTURE... MOLEN FOUR DEPARTURE... NOTE: RWY 01R, ANTENNA 230 FT FROM DER, 309 FT LEFT OF CENTERLINE, 20 FT AGL/ 25 FT MSL. ALL OTHER DATA REMAINS AS PUBLISHED. !FDC 3/6864 (KSFO A1415/13) SFO FI/T ODP SAN FRANCISCO INTL, SAN FRANCISCO, CA. TAKEOFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES AMDT 8... NOTE: RWY 01R, ANTENNA 230 FT FROM DER, 309 FT LEFT OF CENTERLINE, 20 FT AGL/ 25 FT MSL. ALL OTHER DATA REMAINS AS PUBLISHED. !FDC 3/3512 (KSFO A1246/13) SFO FI/T IAP SAN FRANCISCO INTL, SAN FRANCISCO, CA. ILS OR LOC Z RWY 28R, AMDT 11A... ILS RWY 28R CAT II&III, AMDT 11A... ILS OR LOC Z RWY 28L, AMDT 23A... LDA/DME RWY 28R, AMDT 1A... LDA PRM RWY 28R (SIMULTANEOUS CLOSE PARALLEL), AMDT 1A... ILS PRM RWY 28L (SIMULTANEOUS CLOSE PARALLEL), AMDT 2... PROCEDURE NA. !FDC 3/6002 (KSFO A0148/13) SFO FI/T STAR SAN FRANCISCO INTL., SAN FRANCISCO, CA. BIG SUR TWO ARRIVAL... FROM OVER ANJEE INT MINIMUM HOLDING ALTITUDE TO READ: 11,000 !FDC 3/6001 (KSFO A0146/13) SFO FI/T STAR SAN FRANCISCO INTL., SAN FRANCISCO, CA. BIG SUR TWO ARRIVAL... FROM OVER BSR VORTAC TO CARME, THENCE FROM OVER CARME TO ANJEE INT REVISE MINIMUM EN ROUTE ALTITUDE TO READ: 11,000 !FDC 3/5961 (KSFO A0144/13) SFO FI/T STAR SAN FRANCISCO INTL, SAN FRANCISCO, CA. YOSEM ONE ARRIVAL... YOSEM ONE ARRIVAL AVAILABLE VIA ATC ASSIGNMENT ONLY !FDC 1/4624 (KSFO A1863/11) SFO SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT AUTOMATIC DEPENDENT SURVEILLANCE, ESSENTIAL SERVICE BROADCAST. EFFECTIVE NOVEMBER 10, 2011. THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) HAS ADOPTED TWO ADS-B DATA LINKS: 1090 MHZ EXTENDED SQUITTER (1090ES) AND 978 MHZ UNIVERSAL ACCESS TRANSCEIVER (UAT). THE TWO LINKS OPERATE SIMILARLY AND SUPPORT TRAFFIC INFORMATION SERVICE-BROADCAST (TIS-B). ADDITIONALLY, THE UAT LINK SUPPORTS FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE- BROADCAST (FIS-B). TIS-B SERVICE WILL BE AVAILABLE THROUGHOUT THE NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM (NAS) WHERE THERE ARE BOTH ADEQUATE SURVEILLANCE COVERAGE (RADAR) AND ADEQUATE BROADCAST COVERAGE FROM ADS-B GROUND STATIONS. FIS-B SERVICE AVAILABILITY IS EXPECTED THROUGHOUT THE NAS IN 2013, AND IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE WITHIN CERTAIN REGIONS. THIS NOTAM ANNOUNCES THE AVAILABILITY OF THE INITIAL TIS-B AND FIS-B CAPABILITY WITH THE SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL SFO AIRSPACE. THE FAA IS DEVELOPING POLICY GUIDANCE MATERIAL ON AUTOMATIC DEPENDENT SURVEILLANCE-BROADCAST (ADS-B), ESSENTIAL SERVICES- TIS-B AND FIS-B THAT WILL BE PUBLISHED IN TRADITIONAL SOURCE REFERENCES SUCH AS THE AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM). REPORTS OF TIS-B AND FIS-B MALFUNCTIONS SHOULD BE REPORTED BY RADIO OR TELEPHONE TO THE NEAREST FLIGHT SERVICE STATION (FSS) FACILITY.
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 30):
more US carriers landing at SFO on any given day than foreign carriers by far so your point is moot.

When the do the statistics for go-arounds, and it shows more part 91/121 carriers go around than 129 carriers, the myth be propagated by many on here that this is an issue with only part 129 carriers will be busted.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 30):
every pilot landing at SFO is on High alert

Tell me why they have to be on "high alert" when going into SFO, it is being painted by some on here as a walk in the park ?

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 41):
The writer of the story said he got the information from the FAA Public Affairs Office, specifically Ian Gregor of the Western-Pacific region:

There is not a single press release made by his office in 2013, and I checked the central office as well, none of their 2013 releases relate to this.
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dashman
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:28 am

What is so hard to fly a visual approach at SFO, Done it enought it ain't rocket science. Use a little professionalism, follow the PAPI, electronic GS, RNAV vertical guidance and it will put you 1000 feet past the the threshold every time, 24 hours a day 7 days a weeks without fail. Maybe hand fly a little and quit using auto pilot auto throttles as a crutch. A little self discipline and maintain proficiency in our profession.
 
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zeke
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:35 am

Quoting dashman (Reply 47):

What electronic G/S ?

When was the last time you did it from a 10,000 ft downwind, and asked to maintain 180 kts to 5 nm in a heavy ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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usxguy
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:41 am

well when you look at the aviation industry in other countries - outside of Mexico, a handful of South American countries, Australia/New Zealand, and most of Europe & Russia - most pilots start out in a flight school setting, become instructors, get into the regional airline industry for a few years, and then progress into a major airline, typically a narrowbody until their seniority can hold a widebody.

In Asia, this same process doesn't quite exist. Friends that have gone over to Asia to help with training have said that some of the FO's he is training should never have gotten their wings - almost every major airline in Asia requires the use of automation when available - which is the exact opposite at a handful of airlines in the US & Europe. Heck, I know for a fact Alaska Airlines wants its pilots to stick-fly when they can and NOT rely on their instruments.

So add in the fact many of our Asian friends don't stick fly much, coupled in with long haul flying - and that's when the differences stick out.
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freeze3192
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RE: FAA Advises All Foreign Carriers To Use GPS At SFO

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):


What electronic G/S ?

When was the last time you did it from a 10,000 ft downwind, and asked to maintain 180 kts to 5 nm in a heavy ?

Day in, day out.

Shouldn't matter what time of aircraft it is. A plane is a plane, is a plane, is a plane.

If you're sitting in the seat, you should know how to fly the airplane. Period.

If you can't fly a visual approach from a 10,000 ft downwind and do 180 to 5 all on the same approach, you shouldn't be in the seat. The passengers behind you deserve more than that.
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."