jetfuel
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UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:05 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ged-wire-in-boeing-787-beacon.html



United Airlines found a pinched wire in an emergency beacon on one of its Boeing Co. (BA) 787s, making it at least the second carrier to discover such a fault in the component linked to this month’s fire in a parked Dreamliner.
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TC957
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:13 am

Seeks like Boeing has asked not only that the 787 is inspected for ELT wiring issues :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23486472
 
jetfuel
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:43 am

So what brand of ELT do Airbus use?
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BrianDromey
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:53 am

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 2):

I don't suppose the brand matters much. I suspect frayed/damaged wires are a result of the "out of sequence" work many of these early 787s have had performed on them since they came off the line. No one publically knows what was done and in what order - and it likely varies by frame. In that context frayed wires or damaged insulation seem entirely possible.
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dynamicsguy
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 3):
I don't suppose the brand matters much. I suspect frayed/damaged wires are a result of the "out of sequence" work many of these early 787s have had performed on them since they came off the line.

The pinched wires are inside the units, including for ANA in a spare not installed in an airplane.
 
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Stitch
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 3):
I don't suppose the brand matters much. I suspect frayed/damaged wires are a result of the "out of sequence" work many of these early 787s have had performed on them since they came off the line.

I would expect that ELTs would not be part of the Change Incorporation process.

Based on reports, it appears that what has happened is that the ELTs had their cases opened and the batteries replaced due to them being stored for extended periods of time due to the slow delivery pace. It was during this replacement process that the wires in some ELTs were damaged and that damage may have led to the one on the ET bird igniting a thermal event.
 
NYC777
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:50 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 3):
I don't suppose the brand matters much. I suspect frayed/damaged wires are a result of the "out of sequence" work many of these early 787s have had performed on them since they came off the line. No one publically knows what was done and in what order - and it likely varies by frame. In that context frayed wires or damaged insulation seem entirely possible.

Airbus, Boeing and many business jets use the same fixed ELTs so this has nothing to do with the 787 and will be an issue with the fixed ELTs regardless of the manufacturer or aircraft type. This had nothing to do with the change incorporation process. The issue is with Honeywell.

Unfortunately there are man on this forum who would love to have this ELT issue be able the 787 and giving them another opportunity to bash the aircraft and Boeing.     
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kc135topboom
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 2):
So what brand of ELT do Airbus use?

They use same Honeywell ELTs are installed in some 6000 airplanes from Boeing and Airbus.
 
sankaps
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:43 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
Airbus, Boeing and many business jets use the same fixed ELTs so this has nothing to do with the 787 and will be an issue with the fixed ELTs regardless of the manufacturer or aircraft type. This had nothing to do with the change incorporation process. The issue is with Honeywell.

Unfortunately there are man on this forum who would love to have this ELT issue be able the 787 and giving them another opportunity to bash the aircraft and Boeing.

Well, thus far the issue has only affected the 787 despite the ELT being in use in over 6,000 aircraft since 2005, and it is not clear yet who and what caused the wires to be pinched and whether that was indeed the root cause of the ET 787 fire. So it is a bit rich to be saying "the issue is with Honeywell". You don't like people picking on Boeing, but then you turn around and make a sweeping and damaging asssertion about Honeywell.
 
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 4):
The pinched wires are inside the units, including for ANA in a spare not installed in an airplane.

Where are these ELTs manufactured? Just because they have the Honeywell name on them does not mean they are not made in some far off cave with little or no accountability. Honeywell is still a valid named company, but quit a number of old school names, manufactures, and original companies have fallen by the wayside and the names picked up by organizations that have no relation or connection to the original manufacture.
Some are RCA, Zenith, Republic Airlines, and PanAm   
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speedbored
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 8):
Well, thus far the issue has only affected the 787 despite the ELT being in use in over 6,000 aircraft since 2005, and it is not clear yet who and what caused the wires to be pinched and whether that was indeed the root cause of the ET 787 fire.

Given that these ELTs have only been in service since 2005, and that they have a 10 year battery life, I suspect that this particular issue hasn't shown up on other aircraft yet because very few, if any, ELTs on other aircraft will have needed to have had their batteries replaced yet.

Maybe the fact that it's only shown up on 787s so far is as a direct result of the 787 delivery delays, i.e. because of the need (either because the airlines requested it, or because Boeing wanted it) to swap the batteries out prior to delivery so that the aircraft were delivered with 10 years of ELT battery life remaining instead of 7 or 8.

Maybe that's the common cause that we've been looking for.

[Edited 2013-07-29 14:18:30]
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Stitch
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 10):
Maybe the fact that it's only shown up on 787s so far is as a direct result of the 787 delivery delays, i.e. because of the need (either because the airlines requested it, or because Boeing wanted it) to swap the batteries out prior to delivery so that the aircraft were delivered with 10 years of ELT battery life remaining instead of 7 or 8.

I was wondering the same thing...

Lithium batteries are known for their shelf lives, so it seems unlikely that the ELT batteries would have failed due to sitting on a shelf for a few years. But I could see them being replaced on a customer service or warranty basis to ensure that they delivered the full 10-years of life upon airframe delivery.
 
NYC777
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:53 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 8):
Well, thus far the issue has only affected the 787 despite the ELT being in use in over 6,000 aircraft since 2005, and it is not clear yet who and what caused the wires to be pinched and whether that was indeed the root cause of the ET 787 fire. So it is a bit rich to be saying "the issue is with Honeywell". You don't like people picking on Boeing, but then you turn around and make a sweeping and damaging asssertion about Honeywell.

It is publically known that the installation was done by Honeywell and that the issue maybe widespread. Why else is Boeing asking customers to check the wiring on the Honeywell ELTs? Boeing doesn't produce or install the batteries in the ELTs so obviously it's is a Honeywell issue. Why else were they bought into the investigation. Sounds like you're living in an alternate reality. Sad.
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speedbored
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
Boeing doesn't install the batteries in the ELTs

Do you have a source for this particular piece of information, or are you just guessing that Boeing haven't installed or replaced any batteries?
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sankaps
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:09 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
It is publically known that the installation was done by Honeywell and that the issue maybe widespread. Why else is Boeing asking customers to check the wiring on the Honeywell ELTs? Boeing doesn't produce or install the batteries in the ELTs so obviously it's is a Honeywell issue.

It is also publicly known that the issue has not affected any of the other aircraft since this ELT model was introduced in 2005, and it is also being publicly surmised that the damage may have occurred during battery replacement (as opposed to original installation) that only the examples installed on the 787s likely underwent.

It is not known who replaced the batteries, Boeing or Honeywell, nor is it known whether the pinched wiring caused the fire in the first place. So it is not clear at all at this time whether this is "obviously a Honeywell issue".

You state "Why else is Boeing asking customers to check the wiring on the Honeywell ELTs"? Well, it could well be to deflect attention until the root cause is clearly known. I can bet neither Honeywell nor Airbus are amused by this attempt to drag all of the other ELTs into this mess in this manner.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
Sounds like you're living in an alternate reality. Sad.

 
 
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speedbored
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
so obviously it's is a Honeywell issue.
Quoting sankaps (Reply 14):
So it is not clear at all at this time whether this is "obviously a Honeywell issue".

Why the need to blame anyone? Does it really matter that much to us who is to blame? I'm more interested in what went wrong, how it went wrong and what steps will be taken to fix it. That way, I'll learn something. I don't need to learn who is to blame as I don't own any 787s and will not, therefore, need to chase anyone for compensation.

However, if we do feel the need to look at legal responsibility, then assuming that the fire WAS caused by the ELT (and that's a big assumption at the moment), Boeing will have to assume the entire responsibility for the damage to ET's 787, as the ELT is OEM furnished equipment, albeit optional. Boeing may then be able to recover some or all of the cost from Honeywell, depending upon whether or not it was a Boeing or Honeywell technician that caused the wires to be pinched.

[Edited 2013-07-29 15:52:16]
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kanban
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 14):
You state "Why else is Boeing asking customers to check the wiring on the Honeywell ELTs"? Well, it could well be to deflect attention until the root cause is clearly known. I can bet neither Honeywell nor Airbus are amused by this attempt to drag all of the other ELTs into this mess in this manner.

let's put this in perspective.. the unit arrives from Honeywell with the batteries installed, it goes to the site that stuffs the section.. in this case it's in the 48 section so it's Charleston.. which was Vought.. The units are not opened prior or during installation as the connections are all exterior. Boeing is not a licensed overhaul facility for Honeywell electronics, so either Honeywell or a certified designee may have replaced the batteries on a/c that had delayed deliveries over 6 months from installation. Or the entire unit was removed and sent to an certified overhaul facility.

Second, ANA found a pinched wire in an uninstalled spare.. vendor design spares are seldom processed through Boeing, but are purchased by the airline direct from Honeywell and direct shipped to the customer. Yes very small airlines with minuscule purchasing departments do pay a premium to Boeing to buy on their behalf, however ANA is not one of those.

Now don't you feel it's odd that Honeywell has been very silent on this issue? To play your game.. what are they hiding?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:24 am

Quoting Speedbored (Reply 15):
Why the need to blame anyone? Does it really matter that much to us who is to blame? I'm more interested in what went wrong, h

I second that. Its sometimes painful to read these threads trying to assign blame. What is important is the physics. The wire being pinched is a very interesting find.

Quoting kanban (Reply 16):
Now don't you feel it's odd that Honeywell has been very silent on this issue?

   Normally companies are quiet under such issues with high potential liability. In particular as they are still learning what might have gone wrong. If its their fault, Honeywell's lawyers will tell them to be quiet. If its Boeing's fault, why piss off one of their top customers?

This could be a batch issue. It happens. Or it could be that Boeing messed up replacing batteries... or...

Root cause analysis starts with 5 whys. Further digging is required.

I'm just sad one of my favorite concepts has had 'issues.'  

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kanban
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
Normally companies are quiet under such issues with high potential liability. In particular as they are still learning what might have gone wrong. If its their fault, Honeywell's lawyers will tell them to be quiet. If its Boeing's fault, why piss off one of their top customers?

dang forgot the duck smilie... my point was for some if one company is silent it is they're hiding something, if two are it's a conspiracy.... etc.. If everything isn't promptly and detail reported, some people get mad and develop all kinds of garbage. The fact that Honeywell was present at the investigations was a good sign.. and I'll wait for the responses.
 
trent1000
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RE: UA 787 ELT Pinched Wire

Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:39 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 6):
Unfortunately there are man on this forum who would love to have this ELT issue be able the 787 and giving them another opportunity to bash the aircraft and Boeing.     

What does this mean in English? Who is the man? Could it have been a woman?

What is "be able the 787"? Do you mean perhaps "to disable the 787 to give them another oppurtunity ..."?