cle757
Topic Author
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:28 am

United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:06 pm

United ramp/cargo and passenger service employees will picketing in IAH and DEN today protesting the lack of a contract and outsourcing of jobs by Smisek and United Airlines.
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:39 pm

And they will only be wasting their time and pissing their co-workers off. Many MANY members of management are commuting through DEN and IAH on our way to ORD and seeing our own employees trying to cause trouble in front of our passengers who keep us all working is just a disgrace. Start acting like the NW MX guys and we will treat you that way.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
iad51fl
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:21 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:59 pm

About time... now that the outsourcing is starting to affect them.
Where was the support when the outstations became Express Stations?
Where was the support when the Express Stations became sub contracted out to other handlers and even other carriers.

They had to know it was coming... and never lifted a finger to try and stop it then.

I feel the same way about the pilots who lost their flying to Regionals then complain about the 50+ seaters.

Chris
Enjoying the view of KIAH approach end of 27. 29.980548, -95.271201
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting ual747den (Reply 1):
And they will only be wasting their time and pissing their co-workers off. Many MANY members of management are commuting through DEN and IAH on our way to ORD and seeing our own employees trying to cause trouble in front of our passengers who keep us all working is just a disgrace. Start acting like the NW MX guys and we will treat you that way.

Hum. So it seems you are including yourself in management. Perhaps more listening to their concerns and less thinking you are higher (and mightier) than them? Labor relationships really isn't rocket science. Yet so many fail at the basics of it.
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:16 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 3):
Hum. So it seems you are including yourself in management. Perhaps more listening to their concerns and less thinking you are higher (and mightier) than them? Labor relationships really isn't rocket science. Yet so many fail at the basics of it.

I have ZERO to do with labor, I appreciate our employees who WANT to be there and think the ones who don't should move on. This is a changing business yet getting airline employees to evolve with the changes is impossible. I don't think that it really even has much to do with the employees it's the union that brings this crap down from the top. I just wish the employees would take a look at how successful airlines can be when they leave the union alone and find a way to work with management. Any contract that prohibits the free flow of communication between management and their employees is obviously a bad thing for everyone involved.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
TonyBurr
Posts: 1060
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:00 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting ual747den (Reply 1):

This sounds like a typical, "who cares" attitude of the new UNITED management. This is how the present management treats their best customers.

Can we outsource Jeff???     
 
A346Dude
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:23 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:37 pm

Quoting ual747den (Reply 4):
I have ZERO to do with labor, I appreciate our employees who WANT to be there and think the ones who don't should move on.

That's the thing. They DO want to be there and they're worried they and their colleagues won't be there in the future.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 5):
This sounds like a typical, "who cares" attitude of the new UNITED management. This is how the present management treats their best customers.

Can we outsource Jeff???     

United is amazing to their top tier customers and I KNOW that you will not find the kind of service that our UGS and above customers receive at any other US based airline. I want to be very clear that I do not say that because United employees are "better" than the other employees but UA offers a service that the other airlines just don't and United has enough customers on the very top end to justify this service which other airlines do not. So I think you comment is completely off and unless you are one of those customers you would have no idea what their experience is like because its completely different from what another passenger might experience.

This is also not a "who cares" attitude, I think that attitude comes from the employees who refuse to make their service competitive so that the airline can continue to employ them while remaining competitive. It's very simple to understand, if outsourcing is cheaper it's going to be what is used. The employees need to work WITH management to figure out how they can be competitive so that they bring value to the airline and can continue to be employed. Don't work against the company who employees you, work WITH them so that everyone can be successful. Take a look at how things changed when the NW unions went away and the employees started with with the management over at Delta. Its a HUGE change and everyone is happier.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 6):
That's the thing. They DO want to be there and they're worried they and their colleagues won't be there in the future.

If they could work WITH management and find a way to be competitive why on earth would they be replaced? It is honestly that simple.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
kyrone
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:56 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:05 pm

Unfortunately working with management doesn't always work out. I was previously with an airline that was going through a rough time. I organized my staff to counter offer a pay cut, additional hours, and additional work. The airline ignored the offer and outsourced everyone.

That being said.... Unions aren't always the answer either. Without a healthy company, there will be no employees, and thus no need for a union. I think some unions have forgotten that as well.

There is alot of bitterness at the airport level in my experience. That unfortunately gets shown to the passengers more than it should.
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting kyrone (Reply 9):
That being said.... Unions aren't always the answer either. Without a healthy company, there will be no employees, and thus no need for a union. I think some unions have forgotten that as well.

Unions COULD work but not when they are not actually there to work WITH management to make things better for everyone. One of the major things I don't understand about the airline industry is how mainline pilots can work with and trust a group who represents the same people who are taking their jobs at the regional level! You have ALPA representing the mainline guys and fighting the airlines on everything they do so it makes more sense for an airline to farm the flying out to a cheap regional and just increase the frequency on a less efficient aircraft but that same union also represents the regional guys who will be getting that flying and the numbers are bigger at the regional so where is the loyalty? Wouldn't it be better for all involved if the airline could work with pilot groups to come up with a competitive contract to fly the smaller jets in-house and let the people who know what they are doing put the right aircraft in the right place and have unlimited flexibility to move things around to make the company as a whole in a better position? Does it make since to give a union who not only represents you but also the people who are threatening your job all the control over your future and pay them to do it?

Just for full disclosure I am a die hard liberal Democrat so fighting the unions who keep my party in power doesn't come easy.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
cle757
Topic Author
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:28 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:11 pm

Remember United outsourced the ENTIRE cargo operation, and just look how much revenue has been lost so far!
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15455
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 5):
This sounds like a typical, "who cares" attitude of the new UNITED management

This has long predated the current management, and is not unique to UA by any means. Remember IADMAD? The 737 fleet suddenly becoming someone else's CR7 fleet? Tilton et al were well on their way to outsourcing anything and everything.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
wwtraveler99
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:34 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting ual747den (Reply 10):
Wouldn't it be better for all involved if the airline could work with pilot groups to come up with a competitive contract to fly the smaller jets in-house and let the people who know what they are doing put the right aircraft in the right place and have unlimited flexibility to move things around to make the company as a whole in a better position?

The short answer is: Yes, they can! But as mentioned in other posts, sometimes the company doesnt want to "work" it out. They simple do not want the employees on thier payroll. I am sure in most cases the employees would prefer to work things out and stay employed. But it takes two to tango. I am not saying that the unions are always the easiest to work with. But I am sure they are more than willing to discuss ways to keep everyone employed.


WW
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:50 pm

Granted we have our issues to work out, but I always find it interesting that the most unionized airline in the country (WN) has had relatively minor labor issues and is still voted as one of the best places to work. I am far from a staunch union person, but I haven't seen it impact me at all as of yet. I go in, do my job, and enjoy doing it.

At the end of the day, is it really a shock that there would be push back from unions with companies that have a history of outsourcing?
 
T5towbar
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:07 pm

This is the result of Jeff's comments about outsourcing. We have gave and gave. It's about holding the line on scope. That is the most important thing of any airline employee. We aren't asking for the moon. Since this merger, the company has only settled with the pilots only. All the rest of us do not have contracts and are still running two different airlines. We rejected the first offer because it lacked scope, higher medical (it was supposed to be based on what the pilots got, but remember most of us don't make what the pilots make), a pay cut for some, and other issues that need to be resolved. This should have been the main priority to settle the labor issues. MX walked away from the table. I dot know the total situation with the FA's; and other groups like ours still have no contracts.

They just outsourced sCO cargo which was a profitable and a award winning operation.

We just want a fair contract to protect our jobs, and let those who want to retire with some dignity.
Turning decent middle class jobs into throwaway, no benefit revolving door jobs.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4752
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting ual747den (Reply 1):

and this kids is what's wrong with the bulk of US airlines.

Now, hopefully your BOD sees that Delta, SouthWest and US airways are absolutely kicking butt and United is Lagging and they outsource the ones that need to be shown the door. (generally people like yourself that have no idea how to deal with employees and really need to feel what its like to see your kids almost go hungry and you're driving around picking out what bridge to live under. Something you clearly think frontline employees should be just happy to do.)

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 14):

because your management isn't full of incompetent stupid assed like what is had at American and United. Southwest and Delta seem to like treating employees right.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 10):

Seeing the last TA for the ramp, Management doesn't want to work with anyone. It is very clearly all about how fast can United completely outsource below wing. IIRC in the last TA it would have even allowed UA to outsource at the hubs after X amount of years.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 10):
that same union also represents the regional guys who will be getting that flying and the numbers are bigger at the regional so where is the loyalty?

no, UALPA, CALPA, DALPA etc are the unions, and negotiators, who represent the airline pilots.


Quoting ual747den (Reply 8):

If they could work WITH management and find a way to be competitive why on earth would they be replaced? It is honestly that simple.

No idea how much money you make, but its to much. YOU need to be competitive. It will help the company for you to work for 10 an hour. Your all in right? its just soooo got damn simple.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
The employees need to work WITH management to figure out how they can be competitive so that they bring value to the airline and can continue to be employed. Don't work against the company who employees you, work WITH them so that everyone can be successful

The company can do no wrong.

Do you think the employees at Delta walk into Anderson's office and ask for lay-offs or pay cuts? Its clear by your post that you have no people skills, I honestly hope the rest of your management team isn't as bad as you are.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
Take a look at how things changed when the NW unions went away and the employees started with with the management over at Delta.

You wouldn't last 5 minutes at Delta. I honestly don't think you could get an interview.....but if you did you wouldn't have anyone working for you. Your "im better than your" attitude may work with United, but you'd be shown the door quickly at Delta.

Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked about outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?
New airliners.net web site sucks....
Also the mods want to kill free speech and prevent people from saying things like the above. Better say nothing about awesomeness for this place or else!
 
T5towbar
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:50 pm

Also they knew when this merger was about to go down that the labor issue would be toxic. It had to be dealt with and in a responsible matter. Not dragged on and on. And offering low ball offers when we aren't in BK.

It's not about union - non union. It's about treating your employees with dignity and respect. Something that is lacking at the BOD.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
azstar
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:50 pm

It's a sad fact that the major airlines do not feel it is necessary to hire people at liveable wages to load bags on the airplane. However, UA is the only airline I know who subcontracts its customer service at larger stations to the lowest bidder and more than half it's flying to substandard regional airline operators. From a customer perspective, it's a bad business model. While many UA employees aren't the best, the subcontracted employees tend to have no connection to the company they're "servicing" so there is no incentive to care whether the customer has a good experience or a bad one. It's not unique to UA, but it seems to be less in control there.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:33 pm

I think it's funny, yet very sad at the same time that the CO cronies came onto United promising better labor relations and "great customer service" but it has been the complete opposite. How much more smoke and mirrors can the public and employees take?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
OB1504
Posts: 3029
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
United is amazing to their top tier customers and I KNOW that you will not find the kind of service that our UGS and above customers receive at any other US based airline. I want to be very clear that I do not say that because United employees are "better" than the other employees but UA offers a service that the other airlines just don't and United has enough customers on the very top end to justify this service which other airlines do not. So I think you comment is completely off and unless you are one of those customers you would have no idea what their experience is like because its completely different from what another passenger might experience.

And with that, you've proven yourself to be an out-of-touch management shill. What about the hundreds (if not thousands) of elites and other high-value customers who have been fleeing to AA and DL? Or the fact that UA is the only major in the country who have publicly shamed their elites as "overentitled"?

God forbid a UA passenger should be entitled to interacting with an actual UA employee!
 
rampbro
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:00 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
No idea how much money you make, but its to much. YOU need to be competitive. It will help the company for you to work for 10 an hour. Your all in right? its just soooo got damn simple.

You just won the internet.
 
jayunited
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:01 pm

UAL747DEN I have read all of your responses and unfortunately your responses do not surprise me at all.

The truth is a lot of front line employees would probably be willing to vote the union out if they could TRUST that management at UA had our best interest in mind. You speak of Delta Airlines and how except for the pilots Delta is a nonunion airline but if you look at the comradery that exist between Delta management and their front line employees you will notice a distinct difference between the way Delta manages employees and the way United manages employees. Delta seems to understand that everyone who works for Delta is an adult while United seems to think that only managers are adults and everyone else is a stupid child. The way you worded your responses on this thread reminds me of how an upset parent speaks to a child when the child has done something wrong. There is absolutely no respect for anyone else's point of view in your responses you just believe that front line employees are wrong and should be grateful to have a job and should accept whatever crumbs United Airlines decides to throw their way. Where is your empathy for what front line employees and their families have had to go thru on both the sCO and sUA side. Front line employees and their families have had to make sacrifices to get United to where this point and you could careless and I understand that its not your problem what anyone other than yourself has had to sacrifice but it is not right for you do dismiss their concerns as being not valid. Instead of being dismissive of what your front line employees have to say perhaps you should listen, communication is a two way street and what United management has failed to realize is that your front line employees are your most important asset. United could be more like Delta but it is going to take real change on both sides management and front line. However from your responses you seem to believe that management is not part of the problem.
 
azstar
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:25 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:26 pm

With the exception of Southwest, airlines treat employees as liabilities rather than assets. The most profitable companies do not necessarily pay the lowest wages.

"In almost all industries, research shows that the most profitable companies are those with the lowest overall operating costs, and not those that pay the least. For example, pilots at “low-cost” Southwest Airlines actually are paid more on average than their counterparts at “high-cost” United Airlines."

http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/24/cor...fs-costs-oped-cx_jot_0425jobs.html

Airline managements have created toxic work environments, an "us" vs "them" mentaility. I heard one of the reasons that the contracts were rejected was because so few employees had any trust in the management of the company.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4650
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting ual747den (Reply 4):
This is a changing business yet getting airline employees to evolve with the changes is impossible.

Are you really suggesting that giving up one's livelihood is a noble cause to "evolve with the changes"?


Ladies and gentlemen, exhibit "A" at why airlines are at all-time lows with customer and employee satisfaction.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3681
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:41 pm

I would love to see management get outsourced. Seriously. Replace the current failures with people that will take less money, and do a better job. Management is overpaid, and the cuts should be made from the top. I am sure I will get some heat for this, but why not turn the tables a little here?

Don't like the idea UA management? Well too bad.... Imagine the cost savings by outsourcing management to the lowest bidder?!! I am loving this thought!!!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Now, hopefully your BOD sees that Delta, SouthWest and US airways are absolutely kicking butt and United is Lagging and they outsource the ones that need to be shown the door. (generally people like yourself that have no idea how to deal with employees and really need to feel what its like to see your kids almost go hungry and you're driving around picking out what bridge to live under. Something you clearly think frontline employees should be just happy to do.)

I don't deal with labor relations at all and wouldn't, as you say I don't have the skills for that. My thinking is if you don't like working here leave and be happy. Don't bring the people who actually want to be here down with you.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
No idea how much money you make, but its to much. YOU need to be competitive. It will help the company for you to work for 10 an hour. Your all in right? its just soooo got damn simple.

I make what the market allows me to make, that is how my "worth" is calculated. I think that I'm worth about double of what I am paid but if I demanded that someone else would do my job. I have to negotiate my pay just like everyone else and I'm never happy with the end result and my "agent" is always looking for other offers. I have been offered a lot more outside of the industry and a little more from other airlines but its all about the package as a whole and at this point I am comfortable where I am at. Management has it no different than front line employees, the people above us are always looking for someone who can do the same job cheaper that just how business works. The owners of our company, our shareholders demand that and its exactly what they should get.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
You wouldn't last 5 minutes at Delta. I honestly don't think you could get an interview.....but if you did you wouldn't have anyone working for you. Your "im better than your" attitude may work with United, but you'd be shown the door quickly at Delta.

Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked abeout outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

I have been offered a position at Delta 3 times the last offer coming about 6 months ago before I signed a new deal with UA and they offered me what amounted to about 10% more compensation however that was not worth the move my family would have to make.

Delta has not been without its union problems, especially on the NW side. NW management had to do something that I loved and show all of their MX that they could just the job done just as well for a fraction of the price. Remember that? The MX planned to take the whole airline down with them and NW proved that they didn't need them.

Quoting azstar (Reply 18):

It's a sad fact that the major airlines do not feel it is necessary to hire people at liveable wages to load bags on the airplane. However, UA is the only airline I know who subcontracts its customer service at larger stations to the lowest bidder and more than half it's flying to substandard regional airline operators. From a customer perspective, it's a bad business model. While many UA employees aren't the best, the subcontracted employees tend to have no connection to the company they're "servicing" so there is no incentive to care whether the customer has a good experience or a bad one. It's not unique to UA, but it seems to be less in control there.

It's not that the airline doesn't WANT to pay everyone wages that they can live on and be happy with its that you MUST remain competitive and an employee is only worth what the market dictates. If you have someone else willing to do your job for less and they do it just as well how can you expect to be paid more? No company can do that because someone else will come along with lower costs and run that company out of business. That is the exact reason that all the airlines had to go through bankruptcy, the majors had to try to bring their costs more in line with the new smaller airlines then the next major had to bring their costs in line with the other major that just went bankrupt and so on. Im not saying that its the best way to treat people but it is the reality of business in America. When you have a free market things aren't always "fair" but you MUST compete or you will die.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
UAL747DEN I have read all of your responses and unfortunately your responses do not surprise me at all.

The truth is a lot of front line employees would probably be willing to vote the union out if they could TRUST that management at UA had our best interest in mind. You speak of Delta Airlines and how except for the pilots Delta is a nonunion airline but if you look at the comradery that exist between Delta management and their front line employees you will notice a distinct difference between the way Delta manages employees and the way United manages employees. Delta seems to understand that everyone who works for Delta is an adult while United seems to think that only managers are adults and everyone else is a stupid child. The way you worded your responses on this thread reminds me of how an upset parent speaks to a child when the child has done something wrong. There is absolutely no respect for anyone else's point of view in your responses you just believe that front line employees are wrong and should be grateful to have a job and should accept whatever crumbs United Airlines decides to throw their way. Where is your empathy for what front line employees and their families have had to go thru on both the sCO and sUA side. Front line employees and their families have had to make sacrifices to get United to where this point and you could careless and I understand that its not your problem what anyone other than yourself has had to sacrifice but it is not right for you do dismiss their concerns as being not valid. Instead of being dismissive of what your front line employees have to say perhaps you should listen, communication is a two way street and what United management has failed to realize is that your front line employees are your most important asset. United could be more like Delta but it is going to take real change on both sides management and front line. However from your responses you seem to believe that management is not part of the problem.

I don't think that United management are doing the best job possible, I have lots of problems with the way that they do things and that is why I brought up Delta in the first place. They obviously do a better job in labor relations than United is doing at the moment and we could learn a lot from them. I understand that people can't trust management at this point but when do you open up those talks? You have to start somewhere and both management and labor have to understand that and begin to work together so that they can create and environment where people can work together. In the contracts with the union there is actual wording that prohibits management and labor from talking to each other and working with each other, how can that help anyone? It's going to take a lot of work but I would love to see a situation where labor understands that they are only worth what the market allows and management understands that they need to be completely honest and up front with labor to build the trust needed to work together. Frontline employees ALWAYS have GREAT ideas about how they could do their job more efficiently to save the company money and therefore help themselves become more valuable but if you can talk to management about the idea it still does you no good because management has to work within a contract that was set up when conditions were one way at the airline and might be completely different at that point.

I am a person who thinks people should be rewarded for what they are worth, pay should not be based on how long you have managed to stay at the company without being fired or burned out it should be based on how well you do your job. Rather than pay and advances be solely based on seniority why not base it on performance and give someone something to actually work for. The market is always going to be the largest factor in pay but hard working employees should be able to make more than those who aren't working as hard. This is simple to me but I guess some people who are so used to the old way of doing business just cant understand how that works.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
thorntot
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:31 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:06 pm

1.Those with "the company's best interest" in mind are wrong.

2. Those with "the management's best interest" in mind are wrong.

3. Those with "the employee's best interest" in mind are wrong.

4. Those with "the labor contract's best interest" in mind are wrong.

5. Those with "the customer's best interest" in mind will succeed in building the world's finest airline.

Until the failed thinking of 1-4 is eliminated, it is not going to work out well for United. Delta (and its employees) get it. Will United?
Work Hard. Fly Right. Fly United.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:30 pm

Well in this industry SENIORITY is the only thing. It is EVERYTHiING. From the day you are hired, seniority is the most important thing. It dictates every aspect of your job from days off; to bidding; to vacation; to getting on a aircraft. This is one of the few industries where it is the most important thing. I know it is not the merit system, but every airline does it. We live with it and that's that.

Back to the outsourcing issue. One thing about the outsourcers s they are as good as their contract. Once the lose a contract, another low ball outfit comes in and cuts the pay of the employees of the previous company. Wash; Rinse; Repeat. So you get a very high turnover with people who have no vested interest in the company. You can make more money working in an airport shop than what these outsourcing companies pay. The union tries to work with the company for cost savings and efficiencies, but when you have a low ball outfit saying they can do the job for 35 percent less, that is a problem. And it is a competitor's airline handling company to boot. So you are paying your competitors for doing your work.

We are just trying to save our jobs that are middle class decent jobs. We contribute to this economy too.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Ladies and gentlemen, exhibit "A" at why airlines are at all-time lows with customer and employee satisfaction.

I don't really want to be part of this discussion, but I needed to say that neither of those metrics is anywhere near their all-time lows. No. Where. Near.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 25):
I would love to see management get outsourced. Seriously. Replace the current failures with people that will take less money, and do a better job. Management is overpaid, and the cuts should be made from the top. I am sure I will get some heat for this, but why not turn the tables a little here?

Ouch. What'd I ever do to you? Unless you're suggesting "management" only means C-suite and execs? There are a lot of good people here, and most are here because they are extremely good at their jobs.

I do not know UAL747DEN or his situation, but I can tell you that AA is HEAVILY recruiting UA personnel in order to beef up their knowledge on merger transition, and DL has solicited at least 10 people I know with job offers in the last 2 years, including myself.
 
displane
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:50 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:59 pm

As a former employee who still has many friends at UAL, I fully sympathize with you. Many of my friends are within or working past retirement age and will continue to do so since we lost the pensions and the ESOP fiasco. And now to have their jobs threatened? And I don't think many non-employees realize this.
 
FURUREFA
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:26 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Quoting ual747den (Reply 7):
Take a look at how things changed when the NW unions went away and the employees started with with the management over at Delta.

You wouldn't last 5 minutes at Delta. I honestly don't think you could get an interview.....but if you did you wouldn't have anyone working for you. Your "im better than your" attitude may work with United, but you'd be shown the door quickly at Delta.

Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked about outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

I am a huge Delta fan, and think it is the industry role model, but it's only fair to note that part of the reason Delta has so much in-house positions, particularly above-wing ACS, is the Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base. If UA were to have the same, I'm sure outsourcing would be less prevalent.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting thorntot (Reply 27):
Until the failed thinking of 1-4 is eliminated, it is not going to work out well for United. Delta (and its employees) get it. Will United?

How did Colleen Barrett (WN) put it...

"We are in the customer service business: We just happen to fly airplanes."

Of course customers at Southwest refers to both external as well as internal (employees). Such a simple philosophy...I really don't see why it is so hard for some to strive for.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3218
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 29):
Ouch. What'd I ever do to you? Unless you're suggesting "management" only means C-suite and execs? There are a lot of good people here, and most are here because they are extremely good at their jobs.

Amen. Heaven forbid you shouldn't work on the "front lines" or whatever...but then again, we don't have these labor issues at my employer and thus I continue to keep calm and carry on.
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 28):
Well in this industry SENIORITY is the only thing. It is EVERYTHiING. From the day you are hired, seniority is the most important thing. It dictates every aspect of your job from days off; to bidding; to vacation; to getting on a aircraft. This is one of the few industries where it is the most important thing. I know it is not the merit system, but every airline does it. We live with it and that's that.

Back to the outsourcing issue. One thing about the outsourcers s they are as good as their contract. Once the lose a contract, another low ball outfit comes in and cuts the pay of the employees of the previous company. Wash; Rinse; Repeat. So you get a very high turnover with people who have no vested interest in the company. You can make more money working in an airport shop than what these outsourcing companies pay. The union tries to work with the company for cost savings and efficiencies, but when you have a low ball outfit saying they can do the job for 35 percent less, that is a problem. And it is a competitor's airline handling company to boot. So you are paying your competitors for doing your work.

We are just trying to save our jobs that are middle class decent jobs. We contribute to this economy too.

You are completely right about seniority being everything and that is one of the big problems with the industry, could you imagine if just that one little thing changed and people were paid based on performance, which by the way is a HUGE part of pretty much every managers pay, how things would look. I can tell you that in my position if I don't perform I'm gone no questions asked. I go to work everyday knowing that just a few small miscalculations will cost me my job and I work under that stress to make sure I still have a job the next day. The industry is also a very small place when it comes to management and everyone knows who is doing what at the other airlines and they know when you are shown the door for not performing so you won't be getting that job somewhere else in the industry. The big up part of that is when you are doing a really good job everyone knows and they come calling. Something as little as just one new route hitting it big can generate lots of calls to my "agent". (I put that in quotes because its not really an agent necessarily just an attorney but all the headhunters in the industry know who to call when they want to steal you away)

On your other point I also agree with you. Someone is always trying to come in lower and the high turnover hurts everyone. You need employees that are as invested in the company doing well as the management and the shareholders, that is the ideal situation then you end up with people who love their job and do it well because they take pride in that job. Thats hard to find when you are paying your employees peanuts but you have to find a way to reach a happy middle ground and that is what Delta seems to be doing better than anyone else right now. It takes a lot from both sides and I will be the first to admit I don't know how you start to get both sides there with the current situation however that is what needs to happen for everyone to be successful.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 29):
I do not know UAL747DEN or his situation, but I can tell you that AA is HEAVILY recruiting UA personnel in order to beef up their knowledge on merger transition, and DL has solicited at least 10 people I know with job offers in the last 2 years, including myself.

The AA offers are kind of all over the board these days and a lot of people I know have gotten VERY nice offers but know that its not really sustainable and they will be used for a few years and dropped back into the pool so it make more since to just stay put. I haven't seen anything from AA that has made me seriously consider moving into the mess that will end up being for a few years but of course just like everyone else I'm always happy to see an offer and know I'm wanted! I was picked off from Frontier in a really crazy deal but so far it has worked out very well for me.

Quoting displane (Reply 30):

As a former employee who still has many friends at UAL, I fully sympathize with you. Many of my friends are within or working past retirement age and will continue to do so since we lost the pensions and the ESOP fiasco. And now to have their jobs threatened? And I don't think many non-employees realize this.

I have a very good friend of the family who was a 747 Captain that had just retired and got completely killed when his ex-coworkers threw him and all the other retired pilots under the bus. I know people who have been hurt in all of this but I don't know what a better option would have been. United just couldn't go on like it was anymore just like all the other major airlines and something had to give.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 32):
How did Colleen Barrett (WN) put it...

"We are in the customer service business: We just happen to fly airplanes."

Of course customers at Southwest refers to both external as well as internal (employees). Such a simple philosophy...I really don't see why it is so hard for some to strive for.

I get that, its nice to hear that but in reality we are all just an investment to a shareholder and we just happen to fly planes. The only point of United, Southwest, or any other publicly traded company is to return as much profit as possible to the shareholder and that is it nothing else.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
jetmatt777
Crew
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:06 am

We aren't asking for the moon..

We are just asking to keep our jobs. We made $521 million last quarter with our current staffing and inefficiencies...is management forgetting that? Why are they treating us front line employees like we are in bankruptcy and our jobs are what is putting the company under? We are not in bankruptcy..we are not marginal. Why are you treating us like we are??
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
jayunited
Posts: 1277
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:18 am

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 31):
Delta has so much in-house positions, particularly above-wing ACS, is the Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base. If UA were to have the same, I'm sure outsourcing would be less prevalent.

What exactly is the Ready Reserve program for those of us who do not know?
 
FURUREFA
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:26 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:37 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 36):
Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 31):
Delta has so much in-house positions, particularly above-wing ACS, is the Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base. If UA were to have the same, I'm sure outsourcing would be less prevalent.

What exactly is the Ready Reserve program for those of us who do not know?

All Airport Customer Service employees are hired as Ready Reserves, meaning they work a maximum of 999 hours per year (I think that limit has been increased since I left) - usually 10-30 hours per week, are not on a pay scale, and only receive pass travel priviledges (no health/401k). As regular, benefitted positions open up, Ready Reserves are able to move into those by seniority, but many don't, instead enjoying the flexible schedule.
 
questions
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
the CO cronies came onto United promising better labor relations and "great customer service" but it has been the complete opposite.

That is interesting. If the management team came over from CO what happened?

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 31):
Ready Reserve program; that enables Delta to have a significantly lower cost base.

What is the Ready Reserve program and how does it help lower costs?
 
BNORD1
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:14 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:00 am

You can say what you will about unions (pro or con), and there is plenty of both, however the non-union carriers owed their salaries and working conditions, most of them, to the unionized carriers. We could tell who at CO, DL and AA would get raises every time we signed a new contract.
 
bhmdiversion
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:41 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:01 am

I think its amusing that UA is outsourcing their work to other airlines who are their direct competitors.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13628
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:16 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 32):
How did Colleen Barrett (WN) put it...

"We are in the customer service business: We just happen to fly airplanes."

I think she meant they're in the oil-futures trading business and just happen to fly airplanes.   
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:21 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 35):
We are just asking to keep our jobs. We made $521 million last quarter with our current staffing and inefficiencies...is management forgetting that? Why are they treating us front line employees like we are in bankruptcy and our jobs are what is putting the company under? We are not in bankruptcy..we are not marginal. Why are you treating us like we are??

Boy, this sounds familiar.  

I believe the answer is right here...

Quoting ual747den (Reply 34):
The only point of United, Southwest, or any other publicly traded company is to return as much profit as possible to the shareholder and that is it nothing else.


Sadly, it's not about making a profit. It's about maximizing profit.

[Edited 2013-07-29 19:38:24]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
Why do you think Delta is the way it is? You know how many times they have talked about outsourcing post merger? How many lay-offs? How many times they have said YOUR the problem?

To be fair, Delta has taken quite a whipsaw to its regional carriers, particularly with what happened to Comair and Pinnacle.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
Sadly, it's not about making a profit. It's about maximizing profit.

Which is nice in the short term, but when the company goes back into bankruptcy (which is where UA will end up if they continue on their present course, though maybe that's where they want to end up) then all that money goes away. I'd much rather be part of a company that makes a smaller profit but is actually sustainable so that you don't lose everything once a decade.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
citation501sp
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 10:19 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:05 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
Sadly, it's not about making a profit. It's about maximizing profit.

Well said, and sadly this is applicable in far to many situations across many industries.


501SP

[Edited 2013-07-29 20:32:40]
Smoke and Thunder! Stage 2 FOREVER!!!
 
questions
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting ual747den (Reply 34):
The only point of United, Southwest, or any other publicly traded company is to return as much profit as possible to the shareholder and that is it nothing else.

In the US, it is also about creating executive wealth.
 
User avatar
CALTECH
Posts: 2822
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):
NW management had to do something that I loved and show all of their MX that they could just the job done just as well for a fraction of the price. Remember that? The MX planned to take the whole airline down with them and NW proved that they didn't need them.

And where is this NW now ?

Do not think this is a great example to use. NW is no more. And their last years were not good at all.
UNITED Would Be Nice
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4752
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:56 am

Quoting rampbro (Reply 21):

its all mine?
Quoting jayunited (Reply 22):
Airlines

Air Lines
Quoting azstar (Reply 23):
With the exception of Southwest, airlines treat employees as liabilities rather than assets. The most profitable companies do not necessarily pay the lowest wages.

Delta.....
Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):
I don't deal with labor relations at all and wouldn't, as you say I don't have the skills for that. My thinking is if you don't like working here leave and be happy. Don't bring the people who actually want to be here down with you.

Its just so easy.
Please, stay away from labor.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):

I have been offered a position at Delta 3 times the last offer coming about 6 months ago before I signed a new deal with UA and they offered me what amounted to about 10% more compensation however that was not worth the move my family would have to make.

I didn't say you wouldn't be offered. I can promise you, if you refer to frontline employees as you do, you wouldn't last long in Atlanta.
if you let a frontline employee hear you, id expect you to be packing right then.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):

I make what the market allows me to make, that is how my "worth" is calculated. I think that I'm worth about double of what I am paid but if I demanded that someone else would do my job. I have to negotiate my pay just like everyone else and I'm never happy with the end result and my "agent" is always looking for other offers. I have been offered a lot more outside of the industry and a little more from other airlines but its all about the package as a whole and at this point I am comfortable where I am at. Management has it no different than front line employees, the people above us are always looking for someone who can do the same job cheaper that just how business works. The owners of our company, our shareholders demand that and its exactly what they should get.

you didn't answer my question. You're in and will be asking for 10 an hour, thats what you're worth. I own airlines shares and thats what i say you're worth...so I fully expect you to do so.
don't care if your family won't be able to eat, you take 10 an hour.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 26):

Delta has not been without its union problems, especially on the NW side. NW management had to do something that I loved and show all of their MX that they could just the job done just as well for a fraction of the price. Remember that? The MX planned to take the whole airline down with them and NW proved that they didn't need them.

you don't know what youre talking about.
painfully clear.

Having said that, your big and bad behind that computer screen, care to man up and say that to the faces of those employees?

Quoting Mir (Reply 43):

To be fair, Delta has taken quite a whipsaw to its regional carriers, particularly with what happened to Comair and Pinnacle.

feel sorry for them. not.
Welcome to the big boys, Now if only the MROs would all start to fail.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 46):

part of a company that nearly makes 1 billion a year BECAUSE of it MX UAL hates so much.
New airliners.net web site sucks....
Also the mods want to kill free speech and prevent people from saying things like the above. Better say nothing about awesomeness for this place or else!
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:07 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):
feel sorry for them. not.

It's pretty silly for you to blast UAL747DEN for not appearing to care about labor and then say that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3218
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: United Ground Employees Protest Outsourcing

Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 47):

Ignorant much?
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos