doulasc
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Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:11 am

In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American. That route was one of TWA's bread and butter routes,very profitable.TWA routes to Europe continued to decline from BOS,ORD,IAD and did they ever have PHL to Europe.TWA's operation at ORD really declined by 1990,all that was left was ORD-STL. When did TWA last do California-Europe non stop? In the end before the merger with American TWA had few flights to europe all leaving from JFK and I think a STL-LGW,
 
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STT757
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American.



It was 1991, and TWA was broke. Pan Am was first in selling their assets, first their Pacific Operation to UA, then their Heathrow rights also to UA, then their Trans-Atlantic/JFK/Frankfurt hub to DL and finally UA acquired PA's Latin America operation in Pan Am's Bankruptcy liquidation.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/17/bu...rom-twa.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

The sale bought TWA a few more years.

[Edited 2013-08-02 20:17:50]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:17 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American.

Icahn wanted the money. Tons available on the interwebs about it.
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ckfred
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:48 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
TWA's operation at ORD really declined by 1990,all that was left was ORD-STL.

In the early 1990s, TWA did have 1 or 2 roundtrips to JFK to connect with its European arrivals and departures.

There were two main reasons why TWA abandoned ORD, having been for years in competition with ORD for being the #2 carrier at ORD.

First, the delays at ORD were getting worse and worse. DL built Concourse L, giving them 10 gates, and they had more widebody capable gates on L then their old gates on H.

Yet, DL was finding the same problem as TWA. The delays were increasing, and there were other airports in the Midwest that had less traffic and would offer a chance to run a hub that wasn't as delay-prove as ORD.

Second, AA and UA were expanding, post-deregulation. As other airlines reduced their ORD presence, they were selling slots to AA and UA. So, AA and UA were offering most destinations. When DL left H, AA took all of the gates. When NC merged with NW, they consolidated operations in Terminal 2, and AA tooke the H gates. UA built a brand new Terminal 1 with far more gates that it had in Terminal 2 on Concourses E and F.

When the two principal competitors at ORD were growing very quickly, and TWA didn't have the room to expand, trying to compete at ORD stopped being an option. Thus, the move to STL.

TWA held onto ORD-LHR for some time. It wasn't until the early 1990s, that TWA sold the route to AA, separate from the other sale of the rest of the LHR/LGW authorities.

But even in the late 1980s, TWA was reducing its presence and subletting gate space on G to AA. I remember in the early 1990s that AC had G1. TWA had a couple of gates on the even side of G, away from the security checkpoint. AA had some mainline on G and the rest was Eagle. By the mid 1990s, TWA had moved to Terminal 2.
 
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:17 am

For a while, TW had quite a transatlantic operation out of BOS. Service to LHR and CDG was consistent. Over the eyars, they also had flights to FCO, LIS, and SNN/DUB.
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cha747
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:54 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
did they ever have PHL to Europe.

TWA had a PHL-LGW flight that remained through the early 90's that, I believe was operated by an L1011,until it was picked-up by US in the mid-90's and then got changed from LGW to LHR. This was also during the same time TWA's commuter operation operated a flight from PHL to Northeast Philadelphia airport.
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skywaymanaz
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:30 am

I flew PHL-LHR on a TWA 707 once in the late 70's. It is possible that the route moved to LGW at some point but likely not until STL-LGW started. The route was PHL-LHR at the time of the sale to AA. I believe that was one of the routes denied by DOJ or DOT and was eventually sold to US as PHL-LGW.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:46 am

They had an STL-FRA flight as well with 762s. Did not last very long and they never made money on that, actually the break even load factor required was 108% .

Sad story about one of the great US airlines
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sevenheavy
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:16 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American. That route was one of TWA's bread and butter routes,very profitable.TWA routes to Europe continued to decline from BOS,ORD,IAD and did they ever have PHL to Europe.TWA's operation at ORD really declined by 1990,all that was left was ORD-STL. When did TWA last do California-Europe non stop? In the end before the merger with American TWA had few flights to europe all leaving from JFK and I think a STL-LGW,

As mentioned above, TWA were basically desperate for cash and the LHR slots were one of their few remaining valuable assets.

They actually sold ORD-LHR to AA (I think it was for $50m) a few months prior to the rest of the LHR slots. This was initially to be operated by AA into LGW, but that requirement disappeared when they bought out the rest of TWA's LHR slots.

The main transaction included JFK (TW700/701, TW702/703, TW708/709), LAX (TW760/761), BOS (TW754/753). In addition, TWA were to move their PHL route to LGW which would allow AA to operate LHR-MIA.

LHR-PHL was initially an L-1011 but moved to a B762 from 1986 or so.

Initially after the sell off TWA maintained up to 5 daily flights from LGW; BWI, PHL and STL (sometimes 2 x daily) as well as a tag on to FRA. BWI/PHL were sold in due course although STL stayed until the end

That temporarily left TWA with no non stop West coast - Europe non stops. They started LAX-CDG around 1993 or so with a B763 which lasted a couple of years.

CDG was a decent hub for some time, and had more flights than LHR with service to BOS, JFK, IAD, and LAX as well as TLV, ATH, FCO, GVA, ZRH and others at various points.

Despite initially saying they would increase their European presence from JFK the core routes slowly but surely disappeared. VIE, OSL, ARN, ATH and even FRA were axed. There were others too. Apparently they were a victim of the ludicrous Karabu agreement with Icahn. It was far better for TWA to start new routes or route people through STL. This is one of the main reasons why "focus cities" were started (and sometimes ended!) in ATL, LAX and SJU
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:17 am

Yup I flew on the STL-FRA in '85. The ETOPS 767's were marked with a ===TWA=== stripe on the engine. TWA realized a little to late, and only really after flight 800, that the twins were the way to go for most of their transatlantic routes.
 
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OA260
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:26 am

That was a very sad day when they ended LHR operations. There is a youtube video with the last flight and a low pass cant find the link but very moving.
 
Aeri28
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:28 am

I always remember growing up in LA during the 70s. My sisters friend and her father flew LAX to LHR on TWA in 1977. I was envious, but she did bring me some momentos from the plane. The propeller coffee stirrers, deck of cards, emergency cards from the 747 and some napkins which were white with blue depictions of European landmarks (colosseum, big ben, eiffel tower).

I also had a friend who flew in 1985 from Washington DC to "somewhere in Switzerland", not sure if it stopped off in Paris or not first, then after Switzerland, it continued on to Istanbul. She was going to visit her friend in Geneva, but I am no longer certain if that flight stopped in Geneva or Zurich. Anybody know? It was an L1011.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:11 am

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
CDG was a decent hub for some time, and had more flights than LHR with service to BOS, JFK, IAD, and LAX as well as TLV, ATH, FCO, GVA, ZRH and others at various points.

Despite initially saying they would increase their European presence from JFK the core routes slowly but surely disappeared. VIE, OSL, ARN, ATH and even FRA were axed.

I remember that around 1993 or 1994 I checked their routes map in their timetables quite regularly and, for a while (not sure how long), they served JFK-GVA-VIE and JFK-GVA-MUC. I believe it was with a 767 but I don't remember the frequency.
 
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:25 pm

Pictures in the database of TWA in Oslo, Norway 1989 / 1990 at the now closed Fornebu Airport (FBU):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ole Johan Beck
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ole Johan Beck



[Edited 2013-08-03 05:26:38]
 
jfk777
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:36 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In the late 1980s Carl Ichan sold TWA's JFK-LHR route to I believe American.

TWA sold JFK, BOS and LAX to AA for $445 million dollars. TWA had been owned since 1984 by Wall Street raider Carl Icahn who milked the airline dry, selling the LHR routes was just part of the strategy to monetize his investment.
 
jetstar
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:23 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
They actually sold ORD-LHR to AA (I think it was for $50m) a few months prior to the rest of the LHR slots. This was initially to be operated by AA into LGW, but that requirement disappeared when they bought out the rest of TWA's LHR slots.


I believe TWA sold the ORD to LHR route for $195m to AA in addition to the over $400m AA paid for the JFK/BOS/LAX to LHR routes. A nice haul for Carl Ichan, and basically the beginning of the end for TWA.

JetStar
 
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:41 pm

The decline of TWA is really an interesting, sad, and slow story. They were bascially shrinking and on their way to the grave for close to 15 years.

Icahn is an evil character thrown into the story. He was and still is a corporate raider that wants to make money for himself. He had no interest in saving or building TWA into something. Instead he took the equity by taking them private, sold off profitable assets, and left them with little to no business plan going forward. Oh and he got himself a ticketing agreement on the way out that directly led to them going out of business. Even tried to get AA to continue it when they bought the pieces.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
There is a youtube video with the last flight and a low pass cant find the link but very moving.

There it is.

http://youtu.be/5CT-cSpTjBU
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Oh and he got himself a ticketing agreement on the way out that directly led to them going out of business. Even tried to get AA to continue it when they bought the pieces.

That ticketing agreement was the sole reason why lowestfare.com (an Icahn-owned company) existed. After AA scuttled the so-called Karabu deal in bankruptcy court, lowestfare.com was dead a few months later.

Quoting jetstar (Reply 15):
I believe TWA sold the ORD to LHR route for $195m to AA in addition to the over $400m AA paid for the JFK/BOS/LAX to LHR routes. A nice haul for Carl Ichan, and basically the beginning of the end for TWA.

IIRC, TWA made more in profits from their LHR routes per year than what they sold the LHR routes to AA for. It's like what Pan Am did when they sold the Pacific Division to UA - PA could have been swimming in cash from the Asian economic boom of the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s had they waited a year or two and kept the routes.

[Edited 2013-08-03 09:26:11]
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OA260
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 17):
There it is.

http://youtu.be/5CT-cSpTjBU

Thanks. Fantastic video. So many highly trained people who really knew their job. Very hard to get these days. Funny I noticed at 3.06 the guy looks like a young Willie Walsh  
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 17):
There it is.

http://youtu.be/5CT-cSpTjBU

At 4:44 in the video shows Flight Attendant Rosemary Braman-Mosberg who a deadheading on Flight 800. She's the flight attendant with the blond bangs.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 18):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Oh and he got himself a ticketing agreement on the way out that directly led to them going out of business. Even tried to get AA to continue it when they bought the pieces.

That ticketing agreement was the sole reason why lowestfare.com (an Icahn-owned company) existed. After AA scuttled the so-called Karabu deal in bankruptcy court, lowestfare.com was dead a few months later.

That truly was a fatal burden on TWA, major loss in pricing power and revenue generation for them. Letting TWA go to Carl Icahn was a fateful decision, who knows what might have happened if Lorenzo had won out, but we know now what happened under Icahn. The unions getting grabby near the end when TWA's finances were looking not-quite-as-desperate as before certainly didn't help either.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:20 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
who knows what might have happened if Lorenzo had won out

I don't think it would have been any better than with Icahn. There wouldn't have been Karabu or probably anything alike. Without even looking at what happened at Eastern, lets remember what Lorenzo did at CO when it grounded the company through chapter 11 protection almost thirty years ago (September 24, 1983).

Captains paid $90,000 before would be invited back to work at $43,000 a year. Flight attendants that earned $35,700 before would have to adjust to $15,000. Mechanics would receive $20,800 instead of $33,200. This was because of the new Braniff on which wages Lorenzo's team based theirs since they were free to impose whatever terms they wished. (Source: Hard Landing)
 
jfk777
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:40 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
That truly was a fatal burden on TWA, major loss in pricing power and revenue generation for them. Letting TWA go to Carl Icahn was a fateful decision, who knows what might have happened if Lorenzo had won out, but we know now what happened under Icahn. The unions getting grabby near the end when TWA's finances were looking not-quite-as-desperate as before certainly didn't help either.

TWA was NOT sold to Lorenzo for what he did at Continental, Icahn had no bad history but we sadly know how TWA ended. Carl Icahn was the "least bad" option, the lesser of two evils. Its too bad Northwest never merged with TWA as they were a Asian power and TWA an Atlantic power.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:59 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 22):
Without even looking at what happened at Eastern, lets remember what Lorenzo did at CO when it grounded the company through chapter 11 protection almost thirty years ago (September 24, 1983).

I'm sure it would have been tumultuous, but at least CO survived....

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
Icahn had no bad history but we sadly know how TWA ended.

Icahn definitely had a notorious reputation at the time, he was a known corporate raider. I realize Lorenzo was toxic at the time, but compared to Icahn? Again, we'll never really know, but I doubt TW would have sold their LHR rights or have been saddled with Karabu had Lorenzo won out.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 15):
I believe TWA sold the ORD to LHR route for $195m to AA in addition to the over $400m AA paid for the JFK/BOS/LAX to LHR routes.

In Hard Landing: For six routes to Heathrow Crandall forked over $445 miilion.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
I'm sure it would have been tumultuous, but at least CO survived....

Yes it survived, but only barely. At the end of 1990 or early in 1991 it had to file a second time for Chapter 11 and when it emerged from it in 1993 it was still going nowhere. To paraphrase Bethune, Continental was offering a pizza so cheap that nobody wanted to eat it.

Still from the same book, it was apparently known that Lorenzo wanted TWA for its computer reservation system but his reputation prevented the deal from happening. That was in 1985. The following year was Eastern's turn.
 
quickmover
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:49 pm

Does anyone know what Icahn initially paid for TWA?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting quickmover (Reply 26):
Does anyone know what Icahn initially paid for TWA?

$469 million according to this article.
http://www.investopedia.com/articles...cial-theory/08/carl-icahn-lift.asp

Excerpt:

TWA was the pinnacle of Icahn's early endeavors. In 1985, he took over the airline once controlled by Howard Hughes. Soon after, TWA bought several small regional carriers, as Icahn sought to use the broadened airline's efficiency to generate greater profits. In 1988, he took the company private through a $650 million stock-buyback plan that allowed him to regain almost his entire $469 million investment. This also saddled TWA with $540 million in debt. Soon after, the airline's most prized routes would be sold to competitors, leading the weakened business to declare Chapter 11 in 1992 and Icahn's leaving the company at the beginning of the following year.
 
ozark1
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:41 am

Just curious, did the TW people in LHR get hired by AA?
 
Ttailsteve
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:27 am

Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo are both brilliant businessmen. Lorenzo created the largest airline system in the free world. (Only airline larger was Aeroflot in the USSR but every single plane in all of the USSR belonged to Aeroflot) He saved Continental and Eastern. Eastern would have disappeared had Lorenzo not purchased the company. What Lorenzo did with Continental was pure brilliance along with New York Air, Texas Air and PeoplesExpress. The demise of both TWA and Eastern are solely due to the greedy unions. I mean this with all sincerity. Someone posted prior to the CO bankruptcy pilots were making 90k a year!!?? Why? (This was what 1986ish?) There has never, ever been any study showing a correlation between pilot pay, proficiency and safety.

I opine had the greedy unions not gone on strike at Eastern the airline would possibly be around today.

Even today there is no need to pay pilots and flight attendants a king's ransom to fly commercial planes. Supply and demand dictates there are enough pilots willing to work at modest wages. Why should the unions hold a gun to managements head demanding unreasonable pay and benefits? PeoplesExpress used to have their pilots help load baggage at times. Value Jet paid modest wages yet had highly qualified flight crews. Look at the flight 592 crash. Nothing the pilots could do in this situation but both the Cap and FO were extremely well qualified and excellent pilots.

Lorenzo, son of an immigrant, drove a soda delivery truck in texas during college to pay for his college degree and MBA. He worked hard to achieve and was always a personal hero of mine growing up.

Stop bashing Ichan and Lorenzo and thank them both for keeping TWA and Eastern alive well past when they should have died.

TWA had issues before deregulation in that they had a weak domestic network and their merger with Ozark was an attempt to fix this shortcoming. Eastern was mortally wounded by Frank Borman. The final nails in both's coffins driven by the unions.

Its time for the unions to go away. They are greedy and dangerous. Growing up my neighbor was a FO on an EA 727. He hit the picket line and ended up driving a delivery truck. Haha. Deserved it if you ask me.

Don't believe me? The union air traffic controllers promised death and destruction, doom and gloom if they didn't get unreasonable wages and benefits. Reagan fixed that problem...told them not to let the door hit them in the butt on the way out and replaced them with non-union controllers. All was well. Same with NW and their greedy mechanics. They walked. Got replaced by non-union mechanics and the planes flew just fine.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:42 am

Quoting ttailsteve (Reply 29):
The demise of both TWA and Eastern are solely due to the greedy unions.

I can't speak for Eastern, but while the unions may not have helped, incompetent management played a huge role in TWA's demise. After Hughes relinquished control, TWA, for decades, was led by incompetent management with no vision or direction for the airline. They let their domestic system languish and fleet age while they went on a spree purchasing hotels and restaurant chains. One CEO (can't recall his name) in the 70's IIRC was notoriously remembered for having said "There's no money to be made in Asia and there's no money in cargo", or something to that effect, all of which hugely contributed to TWA's decades of financial struggles.

Quoting ttailsteve (Reply 29):
Stop bashing Ichan and Lorenzo and thank them both for keeping TWA and Eastern alive well past when they should have died.

You're right, both Icahn and Lorenzo are brilliant business men; however, Icahn had no airline industry experience and did a piss-poor job addressing TWA's fleet and labor costs, all while selling off the company's lone profitable parts to competitors. Some things he did made sense like merging with Ozark and trying to merge with Pan Am, a Pan Am/TWA merger might have provided the critical mass necessary to save both airlines if done correctly, but on the main Icahn ultimately did nothing to help the airline. Furthermore, unlike anything Lorenzo ever did, Icahn left the company under a deal he knew would be extremely crippling to the airline (Karabu).
 
jfk777
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
Icahn definitely had a notorious reputation at the time, he was a known corporate raider. I realize Lorenzo was toxic at the time, but compared to Icahn? Again, we'll never really know, but I doubt TW would have sold their LHR rights or have been saddled with Karabu had Lorenzo won out.

We all know Icahn sold LHR, ok. What Lorenzo did at Eastern was far worse. Transferring System One and the 6 A300 to Continetal for starters. No airline was more stripped of its asets then Eastern and lets not forget the one cent per gallon fuel buying fee Eastern had to pay Lorenzo.

Lorenzo would have pulled an "Eastern" at TWA and tried to convert everything to Continenal.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:53 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
at least CO survived.

The CO name survived, but the airline was replaced with something less. And thousands of employees lost everything.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 27):
In 1988, he took the company private through a $650 million stock-buyback plan that allowed him to regain almost his entire $469 million investment. This also saddled TWA with $540 million in debt.

That is the key issue. The system allowed Icahn to play airline executive with 'other people's money' and walk away from his bad decisions with all his cash in his pocket.

It delayed the tremendous loss to employees a few years, and likely made their burden worse.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:09 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
but while the unions may not have helped, incompetent management played a huge role in TWA's demise

Unions are there to defend employees. If employees are cornered by incompetent management after years of neglect and stupid investments, one can't expect to be cheerfully welcomed with another round of costs cutting.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:15 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 31):
What Lorenzo did at Eastern was far worse.

Not really, Eastern was hemorrhaging cash when Lorenzo took over thanks to massive debt accrued under previous management and chronic labor unrest. Labor costs were a huge issue at Eastern and the unions essentially thought they were calling Lorenzo's bluff by striking, but a shut-down in Eastern's then financial state was mortally wounding. Lorenzo's pay cuts might have looked painful and hard to swallow, but versus no job at all?


Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 32):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
at least CO survived.

The CO name survived, but the airline was replaced with something less.

Replaced by what? It did dip in and out of bankruptcy a number of times as several of today's airlines have done, but CO was facing liquidation when Lorenzo took over. Even accepting your argument, were it not for Lorenzo, not even the CO name would have survived. I grant you that Lorenzo was no "rah-rah" corporate harmony CEO skillful in managing employee moral, he was definitely a bean counter, but a bean counter was exactly what CO needed at the time. Union legacy airline employees were militantly reluctant to adjust to the post-deregulation environment and pay scales in the early 80's which, for the healthier airlines, was a pain, but for the already struggling carriers was a huge burden.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 33):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
but while the unions may not have helped, incompetent management played a huge role in TWA's demise

Unions are there to defend employees. If employees are cornered by incompetent management after years of neglect and stupid investments, one can't expect to be cheerfully welcomed with another round of costs cutting.

Right, which is why I conceded that long-term mismanagement played a huge role in TWA's downfall. However, the unions battling for pay increases at such a vulnerable time at TWA didn't help.
 
rickabone
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:06 am

RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 34):
Right, which is why I conceded that long-term mismanagement played a huge role in TWA's downfall. However, the unions battling for pay increases at such a vulnerable time at TWA didn't help.

IIRC the unions at TWA weren't fighting for a pay increase, but rather fighting against ANOTHER pay cut after they had already agreed to one.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:44 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
In addition, TWA were to move their PHL route to LGW which would allow AA to operate LHR-MIA.

AA's LHR-MIA authority is totally unrelated to PHL. AA purchased MIA-LGW from Texas Air, as part of the acquisition of Eastern's Latin American routes. MIA-LGW had originally been awarded to Air Florida, passed to Eastern after Air Florida shut down, and was flown by Continental at the time of the sale.

Pan Am held MIA-LHR, which had originally been awarded to National Airlines. MIA-LHR and DTW-LHR were not included in UA's purchase of PA's LHR authority, and PA was to move the routes to LGW after the rest of their LHR routes were sold to UA. UA subsequently tried to buy MIA-LHR from PA, but the US government said the route would need to serve LGW rather than LHR. At the time of the UA proposal, the US government allowed AA to assume PA's rights into LHR from MIA.

United ultimately chose not to purchase MIA-LGW, and MIA / DTW - LGW were included in DL's purchase of PA's remaining European routes.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5956
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:02 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 8):
LHR-PHL was initially an L-1011 but moved to a B762 from 1986 or so.Initially after the sell off TWA maintained up to 5 daily flights from LGW; BWI, PHL and STL (sometimes 2 x daily) as well as a tag on to FRA. BWI/PHL were sold in due course although STL stayed until the end
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):
In addition, TWA were to move their PHL route to LGW which would allow AA to operate LHR-MIA.

PHL to LHR was operated by TWA but was not approved by the DOT in the AA transaction. BWI also was not approved to AA, so BWI and PHL were transferred to LGW after the sale to AA. Since US had hubs at BWI, at the time, and PHL they purchasd them from TWA to go along with their CLT to LGW flight.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting ttailsteve (Reply 29):
Eastern was mortally wounded by Frank Borman.

Eastern was badly wounded long before Frank Borman. Among the factors contributing to EA's decline pre-Borman:

(1) After World War II, the CAB decided to give most route awards to smaller airlines, to make them more competitive with the "big four". Delta, National, Northwest, Northeast, Capital, Trans Caribbean and others were given rights to compete against Eastern on EA's best routes, but Eastern was given virtually no new routes of its own.

(2) Exceptionally poor decisions regarding equipment, such as over ordering DC-7s, Electras, 727-100s, and L-1011s, and not introducing pure jets as quickly as Delta.

(3) A long history of poor labor relations, brought on in large part by management indifference to employee needs.

(4) Infighting among the airline's top executives.

Frank Borman made mistakes, but Eastern's heavy debt load and poor image among the travelling public meant the airline would have had a very hard time surviving post-deregulation even had it not been for Borman's errors.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
One CEO (can't recall his name) in the 70's IIRC was notoriously remembered for having said "There's no money to be made in Asia and there's no money in cargo",

In the early 1970s, TWA had a choice between two executives for VP-Finance. TWA chose Ed Meyer, who went on to be president of the airline at the time of the sale to Lorenzo. The executive TWA passed over was Bob Crandall, who left TWA after he was not promoted. Had TWA promoted Crandall, and had he not gone to AA, the history of TWA and AA would have been much different.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2010
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: Why Did TWA Give Up JFK-LHR And Other Routes.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:59 pm

Quoting rickabone (Reply 35):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 34):
Right, which is why I conceded that long-term mismanagement played a huge role in TWA's downfall. However, the unions battling for pay increases at such a vulnerable time at TWA didn't help.

IIRC the unions at TWA weren't fighting for a pay increase, but rather fighting against ANOTHER pay cut after they had already agreed to one.

Well there were so many such situations, but the one I'm referring to was around 1999ish. TWA was just starting to bring in positive numbers, it was at that time when some of the unions demanded pay increases. I could understand the desire to get back lost wages after years and years of cuts, but despite TWA's positive performance, it was still very much in the hole and could little afford increased labor costs.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):
The executive TWA passed over was Bob Crandall

Wow, fascinating! Thanks for sharing, I had no idea. Things may indeed have been different I would say.

[Edited 2013-08-05 11:00:47]

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