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New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:08 am

Welcome to the 132nd edition of the New Zealand Aviation Threads. Link to the 131st edition New Zealand Aviation Part 131 (by 777ER Jul 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:17 am

Quoting davidByrne (Previous thread)

Quote:
Why not have a later departure from AKL to allow connections from Cairns and Adelaide (arr AKL 1810-1820)?

I'm not sure any business people connecting from NZ104/704 from SYD (arr 16:35 - 16:45) would be too happy about waiting for 3+ hours for their connection when QF flies direct to SCL with LA providing connections on the other end. I'm pretty sure there will be a more connecting traffic from SYD then CNS and ADL combined
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:32 am

Quote from lats thread - keen2fly:
With all this extra capacity coming in it surely must be crossing the minds of those in the offices, the time seems perfectly ripe.

With EK about to 3 a380s to Auckland in quick succession every day how is AKL going to handle that with only 2 double aero-bridges.

Thanks
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 2):
With EK about to 3 a380s to Auckland in quick succession every day how is AKL going to handle that with only 2 double aero-bridges.

Stairs and busses?
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 2):
how is AKL going to handle that with only 2 double aero-bridges.

I think in the last thread it was mentioned that gate 10 was being upgraded to have two airbridges. IMO I think it is a very welcome measure, but a very stop-gap one at that. It doesn't really address the problem of adding more gates, it only upgrades an existing one to bring the number up to the bare minimum for the number of A380's coming in.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 1):
Quoting davidByrne (Previous thread)

Quote:
Why not have a later departure from AKL to allow connections from Cairns and Adelaide (arr AKL 1810-1820)?

I'm not sure any business people connecting from NZ104/704 from SYD (arr 16:35 - 16:45) would be too happy about waiting for 3+ hours for their connection when QF flies direct to SCL with LA providing connections on the other end. I'm pretty sure there will be a more connecting traffic from SYD then CNS and ADL combined

We're not necessarily talking 3+ hours, but maybe 2h 45m or thereabouts. The same argument could be made for SYD pax connecting to AKL's North American "wave" of departures that occurs at 1915/1940/2000 most nights. Despite there being direct flights to LAX/SFO/YVR from SYD, anecdotally NZ still does good business from pax who choose NZ for whatever reason for this trip. And if the "long" layover is indeed an impediment, there is always the possibility of rescheduling the SYD-AKL leg up to half an hour later. Given the SYD-AKL aircraft then returns to SYD for a 1900 arrival and overnight, there's clearly enough room in the timetable to make that happen - if, as I say, it was perceived as a problem (which obviously, at the moment, it isn't).

And while acknowledging that the amount of traffic to Latin America from ADL and CNS may not be so great, I don't think that thinking should preclude a timetable that make that possible at pretty close to zero extra cost (if any) to the airline.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:30 am

Speaking of connections, I have heard that NZ is telling pax that are connecting from the PER-AKL flight to North America flights that they must remain airside or they have to collect their bags and check them in later that day.
1) That sounds stupid to me. The bags have been screened so no harm in having them in transit.
2) why wouldn't they want people to get out of the airport?
3) what's to stop people just leaving the airport (so long as they meet entry requirements)?
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):

That's a stupid requirement! How will NZ know if a pax has left the secure area and gone outside? What is so wrong with leaving your bags in transit?

Do transit pax who are flying in J or Koru/Star Gold gain entry to the lounge?
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:54 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
Speaking of connections, I have heard that NZ is telling pax that are connecting from the PER-AKL flight to North America flights that they must remain airside or they have to collect their bags and check them in later that day.

There is no way of enforcing that at all. It sounds like an urban myth. While NZ can find out who has arrived/cleared customs nobody does. It does not happen, because if it did it would be in my department.

What I do know is that NZ176 pax feature relatively often as offloaded NZ6/NZ2 passengers. Usually because they do not clear back through departures again because they do not allow enough time to get back to the airport.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):
Do transit pax who are flying in J or Koru/Star Gold gain entry to the lounge?

Of course they do.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:03 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 8):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 7):Do transit pax who are flying in J or Koru/Star Gold gain entry to the lounge?

Of course they do.

Being able to gain entry to the lounge will certainly make a 2-3 hour layover go faster so its good that NZ allows entry to those transit pax
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:07 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
Speaking of connections, I have heard that NZ is telling pax that are connecting from the PER-AKL flight to North America flights that they must remain airside or they have to collect their bags and check them in later that day.

Are there many pax flying PER-AKL-North America, do you know?

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting A330NZ (Reply 1):
I'm pretty sure there will be a more connecting traffic from SYD then CNS and ADL combined

I don't agree at all.

(By the way, I liked your modelling of the timetable).

As I wrote earlier, you need to weigh up the inbound and outbound markets which would be involved in any Air NZ-operated NZ-South America flight(s), especially bearing in mind that Santiago is already served by the preferred airline of Chilean passengers.

1) EASTBOUND TRAFFIC TO SOUTH AMERICA:
a) Business market small, mainly Sydney/Melbourne to Brazil. NZ Business market essentially non-existent beyond what LAN already covers.
b) Leisure market from Australia at least five times the size of from New Zealand, but Chile and Argentina already covered, with Brazil the major untapped market.

2) WESTBOUND LEISURE TRAFFIC FROM SOUTH AMERICA:
a) Business market: as above, Chile and Argentina already well-served, remaining (and much bigger) untapped market is Brazil.
b) Leisure traffic.........
- Chile/Peru to NZ and Australia well-covered.
- Argentina to Australia already well-covered.
- Brazil is the biggest and least-tapped market, BUT there is almost no reason to imagine that there would be any interest whatsoever in leisure travel to New Zealand, as almost every tourist activity other than Polynesian culture can be found either across the border in Uruguay, or in the Andes or in the Alps.
- Apart from VFR (which again is five times bigger between Brazil and Australia as opposed to New Zealand), the only significant leisure markets that I could imagine being served from Brazil on Air New Zealand would either be connecting on to see Sydney, which is well-established as a major world city, or the Great Barrier Reef, which is where Cairns comes in.

Quite honestly, I'd expect the demand of Brazilian leisure travellers on Air NZ continuing on to Cairns to be as high as for the whole of New Zealand combined, and second only to Sydney.

I mean no disrespect to Queenstown when I say that, I just can't imagine why anyone would travel from Brazil all that way to see scenery that is less spectacular than similar landscapes which are available on their doorstep.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:20 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 11):
I mean no disrespect to Queenstown when I say that, I just can't imagine why anyone would travel from Brazil all that way to see scenery that is less spectacular than similar landscapes which are available on their doorstep.

Um - perhaps because it isn't on their doorstep? To them it is "exotic"?

It's easy enough to understand why the rich fly from London to Aspen to ski but it is less easy to understand why the not-so-rich fly from London to Steamboat Springs - when the Swiss Alps are a lot closer. The skiing ain't bad in Scotland, come to that, not as dramatic, perhaps.

I doubt many Brazilians would come to NZ just to ski - maybe on their way to Australia - but there is an innate desire in people to travel, to see somewhere "different."

When you list the wonders of Australia I wonder why any tourists come here at all. But they do.

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:45 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
I doubt many Brazilians would come to NZ just to ski - maybe on their way to Australia - but there is an innate desire in people to travel, to see somewhere "different."

Maybe not.. But a lot visit Queenstown anyway; be it for the youth life, a stopping point to say Milford Sound or whatever else, I don't know.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
When you list the wonders of Australia I wonder why any tourists come here at all. But they do.

It gets back to the issue of historical links, doesn't it?

Every adult in the international travel demographics in the UK, Ireland and Australia knows New Zealanders and almost all are familiar with the country's major attractions. That's why the percentage of British people who holiday in New Zealand is so much higher than that of Chinese people, for example.

But basically, New Zealand is a holiday for British people which is far away but also poses no problems with language, holiday illnesses, etc.

The same is not true of Lusophone travellers, and I'd no more expect mass market Brazilian inbound tourism than from Portugal.

But having said that, I do have a plan for how I would grow inbound tourism from the rapidly expanding group of affluent Brazilians.

By law, the minimum annual leave entitlement in Brazil after 1 year's service is one month per year. That means that inbound leisure tourism from Brazil is a completely different animal from US tourism.

If I were Air New Zealand, I would partner with a major travel agency in Brazil. And I would emphatically NOT make all flights to/from Brazil non-stop.

Rather, I would operate two weekly non-stop services to Sao Paulo PLUS I would continue the Auckland-Papeete 789 on to Sao Paulo twice weekly.

This then opens up the opportunity to offer the following sort of itinerary to Brazilians:

Day 1: Fly GRU-AKL-SYD, 4 nights in Sydney.
Day 5: Fly SYD-CNS, 3 nights in Cairns.
Day 8: Fly CNS-AKL, transfer to Rotorua for 3 nights.
Day 11: Fly to ZQN, 4 nights in Queenstown.
Day 15: Fly ZQN-AKL-PPT, overnight at Tahiti.
Day 16: Fly PPT-BOB, 5 nights in Bora Bora.
Day 21: Fly BOB-PPT-GRU

I simply do not believe that a significant number of non-VFR Brazilian visitors would make the effort to holiday in New Zealand.

But I think it is a win-win situation if Air New Zealand gets to carry them on this sort of itinerary, and if they spend 1/3 of a three week trip in New Zealand. I absolutely do believe that a trip to Sydney, the Great Barrier Reef and Bora Bora would appeal to affluent Brazilians, and if we could insert a week in NZ in the middle, fantastic.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:43 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
But basically, New Zealand is a holiday for British people which is far away but also poses no problems with language, holiday illnesses, etc.

Since China is now NZ's second largest tourist market, the appeal seems to be rather more than to the Brits.

http://www.med.govt.nz/sectors-indus...019s-second-largest-tourist-market

China now New Zealand’s second largest tourist market

I don't think "historical links" comes into it with the Chinese, rather the reverse - considering how we used to treat 'em.

We don't even have what they have in Bendigo - the world's longest silk dragon - but still the Chinese come here.

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
I simply do not believe that a significant number of non-VFR Brazilian visitors would make the effort to holiday in New Zealand.

Maybe not. But they might combine it with Australia, as so many others do.

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
Since China is now NZ's second largest tourist market, the appeal seems to be rather more than to the Brits.

Their population is 20 times larger, and there are not that many more Chinese visitors than Poms, so by definition Chinese people are 20 times less likely to visit NZ than British people. They just outnumber them.

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
But they might combine it with Australia, as so many others do

That was my point, wasn't it?

The two attractions which will get Brazilian leisure travellers to fly Air NZ are Sydney and the Great Barrier Reef.

But one asset that New Zealand and Air New Zealand has is that Auckland is a viable transfer point en route, just like Dubai is on the Kangaroo Route.

But the second asset that both have is that New Zealand and Air New Zealand also facilitate a return stopover in French Polynesia, and I believe that the affluent Brazilian long-haul leisure demographic is considerably more likely to fancy a stay on Bora Bora than Queenstown.

But if you make New Zealand the link in the middle of a trip to Australia and Bora Bora, hey presto, you have a reason for Brazilians to spend time in New Zealand.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:08 pm

- NZ and VA are asking for permission to continue their codeshare for another 5 years instead of the 3 years the ACCC is wanting to give them. NZ and VA are requesting 5 years to enable them both to better fight the QF/EK alliance.

- NZ/VA are also asking for permission to combine ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG - BNE flights into one group because QF/EK have been given permission to do the exact group operation.

- NZ/DJ say that WLG-BNE and several other routes have too much capacity under the current deal and is restricting other routes from growing. ROT supports this view

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/8994563/Air-NZ-and-Virgin-want-more-time


Could someone explain how combining the ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG - BNE flights would work?
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
Their population is 20 times larger, and there are not that many more Chinese visitors than Poms, so by definition Chinese people are 20 times less likely to visit NZ than British people. They just outnumber them.

And not so long ago, there were no Chinese visitors. The growth in their numbers over twenty (?) years is remarkable.

Something other than "historical associations" is bringing them here.

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
That was my point, wasn't it?

I just disagree with your negative assessment of NZ as a tourist destination.

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:17 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 17):
Could someone explain how combining the ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG - BNE flights would work?

It allows them to group the minimum seat capacity on these routes into a single group, so along as they provide X amount of seats to BNE, they can be either from ZQN/CHC/DUD/WLG.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 19):

Thanks. Just as I was suspecting. I'm sure DUD would end up being the biggest looser followed by WLG if that was to happen.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
If I were Air New Zealand, I would partner with a major travel agency in Brazil. And I would emphatically NOT make all flights to/from Brazil non-stop.

Why not try to jump onto the Brazil-Japan bandwagon while launching GRU/GIG? 2x weekly nonstop wouldn't do much in the way of that I wouldn't think; unless they strike a deal with TN with their PPT-NRT flights.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:13 pm

A Fiji Airways 737-700 operating FJ430 AKL-SUV returned to Auckland this morning after what appears to be some sort of engine issue: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10908391

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:32 am

in regards to the FJ issue this morning r.e engine problems , I find it strange that they would send '' approximately 14 fire trucks, including specialist ones like foam tenders and hose layers.

If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??! take in to account that by Oct EK will have 3 on the ground at once.

does AKL have the correct number of fire trucks?? do they even have fire trucks that can deal with A380's? ( I know some would come from other towns close to the airport)

But as AKL grows by airlines - should they be thinking about increasing the 'Fire rescue response department?
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:08 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 23):
I find it strange that they would send '' approximately 14 fire trucks, including specialist ones like foam tenders and hose layers.

If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??!

I doubt it works quite like that. I would imagine that everyone who was free to respond at the time did so - not because it was "necessary" by some measure, but to make the most of the real-world scenario from a training and continuing education perspective.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:26 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
It's easy enough to understand why the rich fly from London to Aspen to ski but it is less easy to understand why the not-so-rich fly from London to Steamboat Springs - when the Swiss Alps are a lot closer. The skiing ain't bad in Scotland, come to that, not as dramatic, perhaps.

Possibly because when all costs are added up, Colorado costs less.

I meet a lot of European tourists at the Sierra resorts who tell me they saved a lot of money by skiing in the US instead of Europe.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:33 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 24):
I doubt it works quite like that. I would imagine that everyone who was free to respond at the time did so - not because it was "necessary" by some measure, but to make the most of the real-world scenario from a training and continuing education perspective.

That's one good reason, but I also think you should send everyone you have if they have nothing better to do. All it really costs is a bit of fuel for the trucks. I used to be the president of a local government agency that included a fire service component. We had two levels of response, everyone on duty and everyone within 20 miles (it was in the Sierra Nevada, fairly rural, heavily and flammably forested.) If the first responders thought it was big (they were on site in 3-4 minutes) then it escalated to everyone you could find. Its easy to send them home.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:10 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 23):
If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??! take in to account that by Oct EK will have 3 on the ground at once.

Interestingly, the requirement set out under Civil Aviation Rules Part 139 (paragraphs 59 and 63) is for a minimum of three vehicles, although reading that again it only shows up to aerodrome category 9, and according to Advisory Circular 139-4 an A380 requires category 10. I'm not certain if that necessitates another vehicle or not, but either way 14 definitely exceeds the minimum requirement.

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 23):
If this is what you get for a 737-700 how many would you need to send for an A380 ??! take in to account that by Oct EK will have 3 on the ground at once.

Depends on the aircraft type/incident. First response will always be airport fire crews depending on the aircraft and if required local fire vehicles will respond to assist. When an NZ Link ATR had an engine fire at WLG a few years ago, only one local fire appliance responded to assist airport crews. When a Cessna flipped on landing at WLG about 12 months prior only airport crews and two Wellington Free Ambulances (1 ambulance and an incident command car) responded with WIAL rescue 1, 2 and 5.

When a call comes in (like the FJ incident) the fire service will dispatch the minimum turn out required (like what also happened at SFO last month and request further vehicles when required (2nd alarm, 3rd alarm, 4th alarm, 5th alarm etc). Since the aircraft landed safely and the engine fire appeared to be out not all 14 fire appliances would have remained on scene.

Just remember the media usually never get things right about lots of things and I'm doubting the 14 responding appliances claim, but if 14 did then here is what they would have been

AKL have 6x crash tenders, 3x SUVs with one used as a medical response and 1x 27,500 litre water tanker so if all those responded thats 10 vehicles. Local Fire Service vehicles that would have responded are Mangere x1, Papatoetoe x2 (possibly also Papatoetoe technical rescue tender) and either Otahuhu or Otara. Hose layer would be Otahuhu but that vehicle co-responds with Otahuhu's other truck
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:08 am

''Air force in crisis after Air NZ raid''

The air force has contingency plans to ask former pilots to prepare for a return to service as an aggressive Air New Zealand recruiting campaign has left it monitoring its ability to keep planes in the air.

The Herald has learned the lure of flying for the national airline has become so attractive that concerns have even been raised with senior officers at headquarters.

It comes after Air New Zealand asked the Government to include the job of "pilot" to the list of those categorised as a skill shortage. The listing speeds the path of pilots through immigration.

A spokesman for the Royal New Zealand Air Force said it was aware of Air New Zealand's interest in its pilots, had lost some and accepted more might yet choose to go.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10909660
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:41 am

In the last thread someone wanted a photo of the three Emirates aircraft at Christchurch.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151621069188541&set=a.308422673540.149240.261458563540&type=1&relevant_count=1

Does anyone know the identity of the Dornier 328 Jet that was parked outside the Air National hangar on Saturday night?
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 30):
Does anyone know the identity of the Dornier 328 Jet that was parked outside the Air National hangar on Saturday night?

Belongs to North South Airlines of Manila, N821MW. Currently up for sale I'm led to believe. Departing tomorrow morning for Australia via NLK.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
I'd no more expect mass market Brazilian inbound tourism than from Portugal.

Time may tell on this. But I don't think we're talking "mass market" tourism anyway. Brazil is a huge country with a significant middle class, and I think there are many opportunities to be found in astute marketing to support perhaps initially a thrice-weekly NZ service.

I'm constantly surprised how many young Brazilians that I hear on the streets of central Auckland, where I live. Brazilians' wonderfully louche experiment with Portuguese is so recognisable, and seductive. Children of the middle class, they're on their OE (and probably language training) before returning to some kind of business or professional career. Many will establish business and personal links with NZ which may be enduring and which will in turn encourage others.

So the market I see includes business flyers (small market at present, but growing and has potential), middle-class vacationers (astute marketing cooperation between Tourism NZ and the airline required) and young Brazilians on a bit of life experience and language upskilling at the bottom end. No VFR market, of course. But there must also be very significant opportunities in allowing Brazilians to access most of Australia, a much larger market than our own, without having to endure a transit stop at SYD. It would be very significant competition for QF, LA and AR. And likewise, easier transits for Australians travelling to Latin America.

Fares to South America are so high - I've been trying to price a trip taking in several of the South American highlights, but whichever way you turn, you pay an arm and a leg just getting to Latin America. I can't believe that airline costs to Latin America can possibly be so much higher than costs at other profitable destinations as to justify the fares charged. I think that a modest service initially with perhaps 800-1000 seats a week might stimulate a market in both directions that would force prices to the continent down, and still allow airlines to make good money. The airline could start with 3x 77W services and then switch to 4x 789 services when it is able to fly them across.

Another scenario is that NZ is very successful in attracting the Brazilian middle and business classes to NZ and Australia, and finds it possible to charge them the same outrageous fares to Latin America as the current incumbents do and make really fat profits on the route. Oh well, if no benefit as a traveller, then at least as a small shareholder . . .

[Edited 2013-08-08 06:34:51]
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
Their population is 20 times larger, and there are not that many more Chinese visitors than Poms, so by definition Chinese people are 20 times less likely to visit NZ than British people. They just outnumber them.

Uh, comparative GDP per capita should put paid to this little hobby horse. I can't be bothered working it out, but the UK's is more - substantially so. But care of the sheer size of China and its growth trajectory, it's reasonable to forecast the latter accounting for a ton more visitors than the UK fairly soon. And they spend more. Go figure.

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
The two attractions which will get Brazilian leisure travellers to fly Air NZ are Sydney and the Great Barrier Reef.

And New Zealand's more accessible visa programme. Australia's still lagging on that.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 32):
I'm constantly surprised how many young Brazilians that I hear on the streets of central Auckland, where I live.

Great isn't it? Our more flexible and accessible visas are a big part of that. Lucky for us.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting koruman (Reply 16):
The two attractions which will get Brazilian leisure travellers to fly Air NZ are Sydney and the Great Barrier Reef.

I get the Great Barrier Reef, but Sydney, it's no more interesting than Auckland, just bigger with worse traffic.
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 32):
Time may tell on this. But I don't think we're talking "mass market" tourism anyway

In many ways I agree.

But students and gap year travellers are always a bit more experimental in their tastes than the passengers who are leisure gold, which is the demographic "30-60 years, annual income > $100,000".

Although I'm an economic migrant to Australia I choose to live in neither Sydney nor Cairns. But without any disrespect to New Zealand's attractions, I'd state categorically that the big two attractions in this end of the world for South Americans are the Great Barrier Reef and Sydney.

I agree that Auckland can be the funnel through which to deliver them. And as I wrote earlier, New Zealand (the country) could get 1/3 of their stay if Air New Zealand marketed New Zealand as part of a designed itinerary en route between Australia and Bora Bora for affluent Brazilians.

But as a standalone destination, New Zealand simply has no hope of attracting Brazilians. The bottom line is that with the exception of Maori culture and civilisation, every landscape that New Zealand can offer is inferior in its grandeur to its South American equivalent.

If they want a winter holiday, they will either chase the sun in Florida or ski in Chile and Argentina.

If they want a lakeside holiday in the mountains, they can go to Chile.

If they want a Swiss-style ski holiday, Bariloche in Argentina pulverises anything available in New Zealand. The lake / mountain / village combo makes Queenstown look rather ordinary.

And if they want a Taupo style experience, they can go to Colonia in Uruguay and stay in the nearby lodges and resorts.

So, yes, I do think that Air New Zealand could make South America work. But there would need to be universal acceptance - especially by the tourist authorities - that New Zealand would only get Brazilian holidaymakers for a few days in transit between Australia and the Pacific islands. Any attempt to promote single-centre NZ-only itineraries would be a disaster.
 
brucek
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:43 pm

A bit OT from the current discussion, but regarding NZ aviation:

I just made a reservation to fly on NZ from SFO to AKL next January, and noted that the aircraft was a B744. I thought that these had all gone from the NZ fleet, but not so? On several recent visits to SFO I have seen a B777 from NZ.

Is the B744 for the summer traffic to New Zealand, and a possible greater upload of pax?

Thanks, Bruce.
 
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NZ107
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:51 pm

Quoting brucek (Reply 36):

I just made a reservation to fly on NZ from SFO to AKL next January, and noted that the aircraft was a B744. I thought that these had all gone from the NZ fleet, but not so? On several recent visits to SFO I have seen a B777 from NZ.

Is the B744 for the summer traffic to New Zealand, and a possible greater upload of pax?

NZ has 2 744s remaining. They are scheduled to be phased out when the 2 extra 77Ws on order are received; which will subsequently be placed on AKL-SFO; at least that was the plan. The 744 is operating AKL-SFO on the majority of days right now as well.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:14 am

Quoting brucek (Reply 36):
I just made a reservation to fly on NZ from SFO to AKL next January, and noted that the aircraft was a B744. I thought that these had all gone from the NZ fleet, but not so? On several recent visits to SFO I have seen a B777 from NZ.

I've got a flight across the Tasman on a 744 from BNE to AKL in December.

I'm down to sit in 3A in the nose downstairs - the old First Class cabin - but I'm sorely tempted to sit upstairs instead, even though I'd have to give up my rolling carry-on luggage.

I might never get the chance again.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:23 am

Interesting new - online - safety video for the Chinese market - "Romance":

http://tvnz.co.nz/travel-news/air-nz...e-class-takes-off-in-china-5529504

"Air NZ's 'romance class' takes off in China"

I think the clip in the link is not the full video, but it gives a good idea.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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NZ107
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):

Here's the full version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdQYdCuF7HQ


While I'm at it, I read in the caption about "Romance Class coming during the period around Valentines Day on AKL-PVG".... A sign of the first 772 fitted with the skycouch? Surely not a couple of 77W flights just to promote 'Romance Class'??

[Edited 2013-08-08 17:30:57]
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 40):
Here's the full version:

Thanks for posting that.

I think it's a good idea - the oxygen mask sequence is a bit of a fun stretch (what else would you do?), but I like it.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-08 17:33:57]
aeternum nauta
 
xiaotung
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:10 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 40):

While I'm at it, I read in the caption about "Romance Class coming during the period around Valentines Day on AKL-PVG".... A sign of the first 772 fitted with the skycouch? Surely not a couple of 77W flights just to promote 'Romance Class'??

The Chinese "Valentine's" is actually 13 Aug this year. I think this date is more likely what they are targeting.
 
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NZ107
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:21 am

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 42):

The Chinese "Valentine's" is actually 13 Aug this year. I think this date is more likely what they are targeting.

So I wonder what this "Romance Class" thing is all about..
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
PA515
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:30 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 37):
NZ has 2 744s remaining. They are scheduled to be phased out when the 2 extra 77Ws on order are received; which will subsequently be placed on AKL-SFO; at least that was the plan. The 744 is operating AKL-SFO on the majority of days right now as well.

The first of the two extra 77W's gives NZ8/NZ7 AKL-SFO-AKL a Thu and Sat 77W from 17 July 2014, with a Wed, Fri and Sun 744 and a Mon and Tue 77E. From 01 July 2014, NZ6/NZ5 AKL-LAX-AKL goes to daily 77W, instead of a daily except Tue 77W and Tue 77E.

The second 77W due in September will probably go into service in October with AKL-SFO-AKL a daily except Tue 77W with either no Tue flight or a Tue 77E.

PA515

[Edited 2013-08-08 23:56:18]
 
Kiwirob
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:34 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 35):
In many ways I agree.

But students and gap year travellers are always a bit more experimental in their tastes than the passengers who are leisure gold, which is the demographic "30-60 years, annual income > $100,000".

Although I'm an economic migrant to Australia I choose to live in neither Sydney nor Cairns. But without any disrespect to New Zealand's attractions, I'd state categorically that the big two attractions in this end of the world for South Americans are the Great Barrier Reef and Sydney.

I agree that Auckland can be the funnel through which to deliver them. And as I wrote earlier, New Zealand (the country) could get 1/3 of their stay if Air New Zealand marketed New Zealand as part of a designed itinerary en route between Australia and Bora Bora for affluent Brazilians.

But as a standalone destination, New Zealand simply has no hope of attracting Brazilians. The bottom line is that with the exception of Maori culture and civilisation, every landscape that New Zealand can offer is inferior in its grandeur to its South American equivalent.

If they want a winter holiday, they will either chase the sun in Florida or ski in Chile and Argentina.

If they want a lakeside holiday in the mountains, they can go to Chile.

If they want a Swiss-style ski holiday, Bariloche in Argentina pulverises anything available in New Zealand. The lake / mountain / village combo makes Queenstown look rather ordinary.

And if they want a Taupo style experience, they can go to Colonia in Uruguay and stay in the nearby lodges and resorts.

So, yes, I do think that Air New Zealand could make South America work. But there would need to be universal acceptance - especially by the tourist authorities - that New Zealand would only get Brazilian holidaymakers for a few days in transit between Australia and the Pacific islands. Any attempt to promote single-centre NZ-only itineraries would be a disaster.

As always you are selling NZ short, I guess that comes from being English.

Whenever I end up meeting people who have been to NZ and Australia I'd say it 50/50 (with a lean towards NZ) on which country they enjoyed the most, NZ's advantage is that you can see so much more of the country in a given period of time than you can of Australia. I was taking to a Brazilian family who where heading to NZ 4 weeks ago, they were on the SFO AKL flight, they were going to NZ because of LOTR and The Hobbit, the dad had two weeks in NZ planned and was going to see as much of the film locations as possible.
 
Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:47 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
Whenever I end up meeting people who have been to NZ and Australia I'd say it 50/50

I basically agree, although I would put it 60:40 in NZ's favour.

But Australia has done a hugely successful job of marketing itself in the Northern hemisphere. The image is of wall to wall sunshine, colour, natural beauty and a certain savvy down-under hip-cool vibe. It sucks the North Americans in like there's no tomorrow.

The ones that make the trip are often disappointed of course - when they discover that Australia's cities are somewhat less cosmopolitan and interesting than their own, and the rest of the place is basically a dust-bowl. But that doesn't matter - the tourist $ is still captured.
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
As always you are selling NZ short, I guess that comes from being English.

Maybe.

There are countless reasons why I personally prefer to holiday in New Zealand ahead of places in South America with similar landscapes.

Familiarity. Language. Safety from petty crime. Reliable standards of everything from roads to hotels to restaurants to hygiene. And nice-enough scenery: a 1,187m mountain looks big enough if you're not used to 3,000m at Ski Portillo in Chile.

I know that if I'm sensible I won't be robbed, won't get diarrhoea, will be able to make myself understood, won't be ripped off by someone as a "gullible foreigner".

Unfortunately, very few of those factors weigh strongly on a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers planning their next holiday. It's New Zealand which is far away and speaks a hard-to-comprehend language.

But Air New Zealand is perfectly placed to use its Auckland hub to distribute South American guests all across Australia and New Zealand.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:57 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 47):

Unfortunately, very few of those factors weigh strongly on a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers planning their next holiday. It's New Zealand which is far away and speaks a hard-to-comprehend language.

But Air New Zealand is perfectly placed to use its Auckland hub to distribute South American guests all across Australia and New Zealand.

And yet you suggest that a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers would prefer to go to Australia which is even further away, still speaks a hard to comprehend language and doesn't offer anything more (I would strongly suggest less) than what they could do on a trip to NZ.
 
koruman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Part 132

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:05 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 48):
And yet you suggest that a couple of Sao Paulo lawyers would prefer to go to Australia which is even further away, still speaks a hard to comprehend language and doesn't offer anything more (I would strongly suggest less) than what they could do on a trip to NZ.

Fair points!

But my argument is really that the "lakes, mountains, fjords, glaciers" pitch cannot possibly work in a market which has bigger, taller, wider versions on its doorstep.

Sydney, like it or hate it (both apply to my views of it) is a major world city, and its harbour, Opera House and beaches probably mean that it is in the New York / London / Paris / Rio category of the most desired five cities on earth to visit, and probably a little bit ahead of Rome, Cape Town et al.

I know that I rub you up the wrong way sometimes when I mention NZ's limitations and when I elevate Maori culture to an importance you deny. But I'm genuinely not trying to provoke in this case, I'm just advocating a cold, hard appraisal of the situation.

My cousin lives in Aberdeen in Scotland. He goes to Aviemore in the nearby Highlands to ski, at the dizzying altitude of 228 metres. You don't see too many Austrians or Swiss people going to Aviemore for their holidays.

And I think that New Zealand has very limited scope to sell its scenery to people who have similar but grander landscapes much closer to home, where people speak a language they can get by in.

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