wilco737
Topic Author
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:32 pm

Hi guys,

now it is time for part 18.

Here again the link to part 17:

787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 17 (by iowaman Jul 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)

wilco737
  
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2190
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:47 pm

As always, thank you to All Things 787 (NYC777) and others for the information that is summarized here. For more specific information on the aircraft in production, I recommend going to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

DELIVERED TO DATE: 73 Aircraft to 13 Airlines

DELIVERIES PRIOR TO AUGUST
NH-20; JL-10; AI-7; UA–7; QR-7; ET-5; LO-5; LA-3; BY-3; BA-2; CZ-2; DY-1; HU-1

AIRCRAFT THAT HAVE COMPLETED MAJOR ASSEMBLY & CHANGE INCORPORATION*
L/N 116 - A7-BCG – 8/xx/2013 - QR #8
L/N 100 - B-2736 – 8/xx/2013 – CZ #3
L/N 109 - A7-BCF – 8/xx/2013 - QR #9
L/N 90 - VT-ANN – 8/xx/2013 - AI #8 (Paris Air Show)
L/N 91 - VT-ANO – 8/xx/2013 - AI #9
L/N 110 - JA822A - 8/xx/2013 - NH #21
L/N 115 – N961AM - 8/16/2013 - AM #1 (ILFC)
L/N 106 - G-TUID – 8/xx/2013 – BY #4
L/N 112 – EI-LNB - 8/xx/2013 - DY #2 (ILFC)
L/N 120 - JA823A - 8/xx/2013 - NH #22
L/N 113 - CC-BBD - 8/xx/2013 - LA #5
L/N 21 – JA823J – 8/xx/2013 - JL #11
L/N 104 - B-2735 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #4
L/N 93 - B-2732 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #5
L/N 81 - B-2723 – x/xx/2013 - HU #2
L/N 85 - B–2730 - x/xx/2013 - HU #3
L/N 43 - B-2727 – x/xx/2013 - CZ #6 (Storage)
L/N 73 - B-2728 – x/xx/2013 - HU #4 (Storage)
L/N 107 - JA821A - x/xx/2013 - NH #23 Awaiting first flight
L/N 118 - CC-BBE - 8/xx/2013 - LA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 114 – G-ZBJC - x/xx/2013 - BA #3 Awaiting first flight
L/N 121 – G-ZBJD - x/xx/2013 - BA #4 Awaiting first flight
L/N 122 – N964AM - x/xx/2013 - AM #2 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight
L/N 123 – VH-VKA – 9/xx/2013 – JQ #1 Awaiting first flight
L/N 127 – N965AM - x/xx/2013 - AM #3 (ILFC) Awaiting first flight
L/N 79 - B-27?? – x/xx/2013 - HU #5 Awaiting first flight
L/N 32 - VT-ANG – x/xx/2013 - AI #10 Awaiting first flight
L/N 30 - VT-ANE – x/xx/2013 - AI #11 Awaiting first flight
L/N 36 - B-2726 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #7 Awaiting first flight
L/N 119 - B-2737 – x/xx/2013 – CZ #8 Awaiting first flight

*Not including the delivered aircraft and test aircraft (ZA001-006 & ZB001)
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3662
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:23 pm

It's pretty nice to have 4 787 first flights in the last four days, interesting frames as well, some trivia:
L/N 120 NH; B-1 4/aug/13 the highest L/N to fly so far
L/N 113 LA; B-1 6/aug/13
L/N 93 CZ ; B-1 6/aug/13 filled in a crucial gap: apart from L/N 79, all frames from L/N 37 to 106 have now flown
L/N 21 JL; B-1 7/aug/13 with L/N 10 to 20 still not having flown, the lowest L/N to fly for a while and now making more then half, 9 out of 16, of the L/N 21-36 block as having flown
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
NYC777
Posts: 5065
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:38 pm

Are we sure that ZA320 is on a C-1 flight?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE320
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:23 pm

So, to recap about the early-build:

-LN1, 2 and 3, too different from the rest, have been discarded even as test planes, and replaced in the test business line-up by LN4, 5, and 6, which were to be customer planes, if my memory serves well;

-Many early birds have been rejected by their original customers (LN 10 to 19 and LN22); ANA took some (LN7, 8 and 9), to have something with what to start service (shall we expect those early LNs to have a short career at their original carrier?)

-Change incorporation in the "easy" planes is almost done: all LNs over 50 are delivered, there are three remaining to be delivered over LN30, which shall all be delivered quite soon

-Between LN19 and LN29, four have been delivered, four are in long term works, one shall be delivered soon, (one rejected, as mentioned before)

-Between LN10 and 18, none delivered, two in long term works, all others more or less in limbo; heavy modifications needed, with the wing design to be modified.

-Modification of the planes from LN19 on, after the wing design change came on line, represent more or less 8-10 months of rework, about a year between start of work and delivery; we don't know yet how long will be the rework for pre-LN19 birds

-Deliveries of the last modified planes is slated for 2016, meaning those will have been on the inventory for about eight years

Is that it? Please feel free to correct, if I've missed or misunderstood anything.

Thanks to the contributors who provided information in the previous thread, and to KarelXWB in particular.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:42 pm

Can someone fill me in on what changes were made to the wing after Line 19?

I presume they are internal and not chnges in shape.

Regarding the early craft, I guess if Boeing is prepared to sell them cheaply enough, they could move.

Ruscoe
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:56 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 5):
Can someone fill me in on what changes were made to the wing after Line 19?

A revised wing design incorporating significant weight savings was introduced from LN20 onwards. Also issues with wiring and design changes due to lightning strike protection have been addressed in this new design. Additionally, the center wing box was strengthened and the MTOW was increased from 219 to 227 tonnes.

This was a big block change. The LN10-19 birds will of course still have the heavier wing - it cannot be replaced anymore - but the EMC workers will have to strip and re-wire the wings by hand.

[Edited 2013-08-07 16:01:52]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
ual747-600
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 1999 12:57 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:06 pm

A7-BCE heading to OTBD/DOH

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR3787

UAL747-600

[Edited 2013-08-07 16:08:36]
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4921
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 4):
LN1, 2 and 3, too different from the rest, have been discarded even as test planes, and replaced in the test business line-up by LN4, 5, and 6, which were to be customer planes, if my memory serves well

I understand that the situation is slightly different:

- LN1 and LN2 have been retired, and will go to museums;
- LN3 is too different from later frames for selling it to be cost-effective, but it can still be worthwhile as a test frame, and Boeing will keep it;
- LN4 and LN5 are currently engaged in engine PIP testing, but will eventually go through change incorporation and be sold to customers; and
- LN6 is going through change incorporation right now and will be sold to a customer.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 4):
(shall we expect those early LNs to have a short career at their original carrier?)

I doubt it. They are in regional configuration where their range deficit won't matter much. I'm sure they will be the first NH 787s to be retired, but Japanese airlines have a long history of getting many years of use out of early-build frames.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
the EMC workers will have to strip and re-wire the wings by hand.

Ouch! That will be long…

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
- LN3 is too different from later frames for selling it to be cost-effective, but it can still be worthwhile as a test frame, and Boeing will keep it;
- LN4 and LN5 are currently engaged in engine PIP testing, but will eventually go through change incorporation and be sold to customers; and
- LN6 is going through change incorporation right now and will be sold to a customer.

Many thanks for the corrections. I see I had not read the table properly. Who is to take that LN6?

So, Karel, I understand that the new wing was on line from LN20, not LN19. Thanks for that as well.

[Edited 2013-08-07 17:07:02]
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2334
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:13 am

Quoting nyc777 (Reply 3):
Are we sure that ZA320 is on a C-1 flight?



TUI ZA320 (106) -- to try and keep everybody happy -- initially filed a flight plan indicative of a B-1 (already completed) or a C-1. Approaching KMWH it looks like there was an issue of some sort and it diverted to KPAE without completing the profile. Am I sure it's a C-1, not 100%, but a B-2 wouldn't normally fly a full profile route after completing a full profile B-1, which based on the data from the 31 July flight it did.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22953
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 4):
LN1, 2 and 3, too different from the rest, have been discarded even as test planes, and replaced in the test business line-up by LN4, 5, and 6, which were to be customer planes, if my memory serves well...

All six frames were destined for customers: LN1+2 for NH, LN3+4 for NW and LN5+6 for AT.

As seabosdca noted, LN1-3 have been written down and will not be delivered. I believe LN1+LN2 are now in desert storage (the photo database search function is unavailable so I cannot check) and LN3 might have joined her.

LN4, LN5 and LN6 will eventually be delivered as 787 VIPs.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4921
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:36 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
LN3 might have joined her.

Last time I drove by BFI -- a couple weeks ago -- LN3 was on the ramp there.
 
dynamicsguy
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:24 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:10 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
- LN6 is going through change incorporation right now and will be sold to a customer.

Further to this, the change incorporation and refurb is being carried out at San Antonio. The earlier plan had been for more airplanes to be worked on here, but thus far I think this is only the third.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:37 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
Not from the line number but from the ZA number:
> ZA100-114: domestic 264 seats
> ZA500+: domestic 335 seats
> ZA115-119: international 158 seats
> ZA120+: international 169 seats
> ZA135: international 222 seats

Thanks

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
You sure? The 747 refurbish program has ended and those people were fired or transferred, but I'm not sure about the EMC.

I read it in the Seattle Times:
"The layoffs will affect chiefly employees who refurbish and do modifications on jets that have rolled off the assembly line in need of rework, he said. Boeing has several thousand employees working at what’s called the Everett Modification Center, a former supplier building at the south end of Paine Field. The cuts come even though the 787 jet modifications performed there are expected to continue into early 2014."
http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...y/2020621699_boeinglayoffsxml.html

tortugamon
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:56 am

Aeromexico LN127 (ZA563) on the 40-51 ramp.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/9464358456/
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:29 am

NYC777 has an interesting post today about the problem children: Air India, Hainan, and China Southern. There are 14 787s for these airlines right now and nine of them have had their B-1s.

How many of these do we expect to be delivered in August? Personally I have a hard time seeing more than three. Fooled me too many times.  Smilehttp://nyc787.blogspot.com/2013/08/u...-787-flight-testing-could-led.html

tortugamon

[Edited 2013-08-08 04:30:34]
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 4):
LN1, 2 and 3, too different from the rest, have been discarded even as test planes, and replaced in the test business line-up by LN4, 5, and 6, which were to be customer planes, if my memory serves well...

All six frames were destined for customers: LN1+2 for NH, LN3+4 for NW and LN5+6 for AT.

As seabosdca noted, LN1-3 have been written down and will not be delivered. I believe LN1+LN2 are now in desert storage (the photo database search function is unavailable so I cannot check) and LN3 might have joined her.

LN4, LN5 and LN6 will eventually be delivered as 787 VIPs.

And lastly, thanks again Stitch and seabosdca.  

I guess we don't know when those VIP planes would be delivered… It may not be very high on the priority list, right now.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 9):
So, Karel, I understand that the new wing was on line from LN20, not LN19. Thanks for that as well.

Indeed, from LN20 onward.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
I believe LN1+LN2 are now in desert storage (the photo database search function is unavailable so I cannot check) and LN3 might have joined her.

LN1 and LN2 are in Palmdale for storage. This picture of both planes was taken before engine removal of LN2:

http://oi43.tinypic.com/wiagjp.jpg

And LN3 is in storage at Boeing Field.



The last picture was taken by royalscottking http://www.flickr.com/photos/royalscottking/
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 13):
Further to this, the change incorporation and refurb is being carried out at San Antonio. The earlier plan had been for more airplanes to be worked on here

The original plan was to refurbish the first 20 planes in San Antonio. But I guess it was nearly impossible to make those early birds airworthy.

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 13):
but thus far I think this is only the third.

Correct. LN6 was a testbed while LN23 and LN35 were used for final certification, that's why they could fly to San Antonio for rework.

I also found this on Flightglobal, about what they have changed on the airplane:

Quote:
While in Texas, Airplane 23 underwent extensive changes including wholesale replacement of its environmental control system air-conditioning packs and modification of ducting and baffling in the aircraft's cabin, as well as motor and fan changes and related software.

Further, modifications were made to the aircraft's flight control system hardware and software, changing out the outboard ailerons, outboard and inboard flaps and flaperons, as well as making changes to the elevator and rudder systems.

The aircraft now features a new wiring configuration, along with the fully certified version of the updated electrical power distribution system that was changed after the November 2010 fire aboard test aircraft ZA002.


[Edited 2013-08-08 08:10:13]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2334
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
And LN3 is in storage at Boeing Field.



That looks like Moses Lake (KMWH) not Boeing Field (KBFI)
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 20):
That looks like Moses Lake (KMWH) not Boeing Field (KBFI)

That's confusing, seabosdca in reply #12 said he saw LN3 a few weeks ago at BFI.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
uta999
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:46 pm

With these first LN3-19, Wouldn't it be easy to cut out the wingbox and simply replace it and the wings with brand new parts.

Take the front and rear fuselage and bolt it onto a new wingbox and wing. It would take six weeks and create current spec planes. Then sell them to BA with a 30% discount.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:48 pm

Qatar A7-BCE (LN103) finished IFE work at VCV. The plane was scheduled for a delivery flight to DOH yesterday but the flight was canceled.

With the freed space at VCV, it's time for the next QR delivery  
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2334
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
That's confusing, seabosdca in reply #12 said he saw LN3 a few weeks ago at BFI.

Driven by BFI several times this week and have seen one on the flight line and one getting towed out of the hangar yesterday morning (ZA004 and ZA005). No other 787's were visible. If that photo is of ZA003, it's not parked at BFI.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting uta999 (Reply 22):
With these first LN3-19, Wouldn't it be easy to cut out the wingbox and simply replace it and the wings with brand new parts.

You need a jig for that kind of work but the EMC doesn't feature such tooling.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4921
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
That's confusing, seabosdca in reply #12 said he saw LN3 a few weeks ago at BFI.

I suppose I could have been looking at LN4 or LN5, but I thought I saw the full Dreamliner livery rather than the simple livery those two frames have. In any case, that field is definitely MWH, and that plane is definitely LN3, and it's very unlikely that it sprouted engines and moved in the weeks since that picture was taken. So I stand corrected.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 24):
Driven by BFI several times this week and have seen one on the flight line and one getting towed out of the hangar yesterday morning (ZA004 and ZA005). No other 787's were visible. If that photo is of ZA003, it's not parked at BFI.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 26):
I suppose I could have been looking at LN4 or LN5, but I thought I saw the full Dreamliner livery rather than the simple livery those two frames have. In any case, that field is definitely MWH, and that plane is definitely LN3, and it's very unlikely that it sprouted engines and moved in the weeks since that picture was taken. So I stand corrected.

Thanks guys, that explains it.

Now nyc777 has to update his sheet too  

[Edited 2013-08-08 09:07:50]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
ual747-600
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 1999 12:57 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):
Qatar A7-BCE (LN103) finished IFE work at VCV. The plane was scheduled for a delivery flight to DOH yesterday but the flight was canceled.

Flightaware is showing the flight was not cancelled. Are you sure??

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A7BCE

UAL747-600
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting ual747-600 (Reply 28):
Flightaware is showing the flight was not cancelled. Are you sure??

You're right, I was looking at the wrong callsign.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1242
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
I also found this on Flightglobal, about what they have changed on the airplane:

Quote:
While in Texas, Airplane 23 underwent extensive changes including wholesale replacement of its environmental control system air-conditioning packs and modification of ducting and baffling in the aircraft's cabin, as well as motor and fan changes and related software.

Further, modifications were made to the aircraft's flight control system hardware and software, changing out the outboard ailerons, outboard and inboard flaps and flaperons, as well as making changes to the elevator and rudder systems.

The aircraft now features a new wiring configuration, along with the fully certified version of the updated electrical power distribution system that was changed after the November 2010 fire aboard test aircraft ZA002.

Wow! The 787 really has to be a great airplane to have survived so many troubles in its first years of existence!

So, if I read correctly, the work on the flight controls is what you described: stripping and rewiring, plus some hardware modifications, but the rewiring may not have been limited to the wings.

Again, if I follow correctly, the LN10-LN19 series has to undergo the same modifications:
-environmental controls, A/C packs, ducting and baffling, motors and fans and software, for one;
-flight control system hardware and software, flaps, flaperons, elevator, rudder;
-updated electrical power distribution system, rewiring;

plus the side-of-body modification.

Is that it?
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4921
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 30):
plus the side-of-body modification.

The SOB modifications were done by the suppliers for LN 16 and up, and were completed by Boeing on LN 15 and earlier quite a while ago. So at least that's not an issue.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 4):
Is that it? Please feel free to correct, if I've missed or misunderstood anything.

Also worth nothing is that LN20 was the first major block change. The 787 overweight was reduced from 6.1 tonnes to around 4 tonnes.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 30):
Again, if I follow correctly, the LN10-LN19 series has to undergo the same modifications:

Correct. LN10-19 have to undergo everything done on LN20-LN65. Additionally, LN10-19 have the old wing design and will need extra re-wiring in here.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 30):
but the rewiring may not have been limited to the wings.

Re-wiring affect many sections of the airplane. The whole cabin has to be stripped etc.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 30):
plus the side-of-body modification.

I'm not sure about the side-of-body modification. Boeing had a large white tent on the flightline between 2009 and 2011 where they have done those modifications, but I'm not sure how many airplanes were altered.

http://paineairport.com/images/kpae6183.jpg

http://paineairport.com/images/kpae6360.jpg

[Edited 2013-08-08 10:53:14]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:30 pm

So, along with today's blog update, we also got a spreadsheet update.

LN/22 is showing it belongs to TransAero now...interesting that ANA didn't take her up   I guess overweight is still overweight, though, even if it is only 4 tons vs 6.5 tons...  
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 33):
LN/22 is showing it belongs to TransAero now

Just as expected (I assumed TransAero would take 1 more early bird).
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 14):
Thanks

Another way to quickly recognize the domestic from the international birds: the international have 2 sealed windows below the ANA tiles because of the extra lavatory:







Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2334
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:41 pm

ANA ZA122 (120) up on a B-2(?) now:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE122
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22953
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:50 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
The original plan was to refurbish the first 20 planes in San Antonio. But I guess it was nearly impossible to make those early birds airworthy.

Perhaps the work necessary to get them to a point to be able to fly to San Antonio is such that it's easier keeping them at PAE and completing the work there.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2334
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:47 pm

NOR ZA577(112) up on a B-2 to complete the B-1 profile that was aborted on Aug 3rd:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE577
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:48 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 33):
I guess overweight is still overweight, though, even if it is only 4 tons vs 6.5 tons...

I must admit to having difficulty with the weight problems of both the 787 and 350.

The problem is what weight is the base weight from which to measure, and then if the manufacturer announces a weight increase, are further weight increases based on the new revised weight, or the original.

I think the truth is it is a mess. I have heard figures for the 787 going out to 9T, and for the 359 out to 7T, but it all depends upon the starting point which is chosen.

Perhaps someone with more information than myself, can suggest a method . However it may be too complicated for anything simple.

Since this is the 787 thread, for what it's worth I think the base figure to start with, is the figure announced when design was finalised , and they started cutting metal (carbon). Does anyone know that figure?

Then we can see how weights have changed up or down over the program.

Ruscoe
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:14 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 39):
I must admit to having difficulty with the weight problems of both the 787 and 350.

1) as far as I know, many modifications required after production parts were made added siginificant weight (e.g. side-of-body). The battery containment modifications alone weigh around the weight of one (FAA standard) passenger. Not good for a plane that already has weight issues

2) from what I can gather, it seems that the art of weight reducing composite structures is not as advanced yet as the same science for metal airframe structures, and that at least part of this is the engineers at Boeing (and Airbus!) learning as they go. I would imagine that weight reducing a part requires some real world fatigue testing to validate computer models at this point in time...the engineers are playing it conservative and not introducing changes until they have been thoroughly evaluated. This is why you have block changes in Boeing birds.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:20 am

From the previous thread (quoting tortugamon):

Quote:

I don't believe the engines have been hung at this point and there are very few things that would need to change to the frame to allow any of these to be hung with either engine. Boeing designed the 787 to make engines relatively interchangeable with just a couple of days of labor. You could end up being right but I am not sure it is set in stone right now.


I don't think Boeing wants any GE or Roller engines laying around, especially early production ones that cannot be upgraded to current PIP specifications. Ergo-I would be really suprised to see any engine manufacturer swaps on the terrible teen birds (or LN/22 for that matter!).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22953
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 40):
as far as I know, many modifications required after production parts were made added siginificant weight (e.g. side-of-body).

The fix involved actually removing some material via U-shaped cutouts in the end of each upper wing-skin stringer to transfer part of the excess load into the titanium fitting at the wing-body join instead of into the wing skin. So if anything, the fixed planes should be lighter, if by only a very, very, very small amount.
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4953
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 39):
Then we can see how weights have changed up or down over the program.

From the ACAP sheets the OEW of the 788 is shown as 117.7t.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:41 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 41):
I don't think Boeing wants any GE or Roller engines laying around

I do not imagine that the engines that were originally intended for these frames are still laying around. They take them off the wing for a couple reasons but one of which, I imagine, is to put them into use and not tie up the capital.

tortugamon
 
parapente
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:29 am

I am totally lost on the actual situation re 787 production.All this re working is confusing me.How many actual new ones that are ready to go straight off the production line are they making a month? IE in the month of July or August for instance?
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:45 am

Quoting parapente (Reply 45):
How many actual new ones that are ready to go straight off the production line are they making a month?

Seven aircraft is the current rate and zero re-work is necessary on all of these aircraft.

Quoting parapente (Reply 45):
IE in the month of July or August for instance?

In June Boeing took down some the MOATT on line 40-26 while 40-24 was being used for 787-9 production so in these months the production did not hit the 7/month target that they hit in May. That is all behind them now and things appear to be picking back up and Boeing has stated that they plan on being at 10/month by year end.

tortugamon
 
parapente
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:09 am

Thank you tortugamon,

If I may - what is MOATT? (I am sure it is obvious and I am being stupid).

So about 20 odd aircraft are being refurbed? I imagine from reading parts of the thread that some of this is major reworking but I imagine that for some it is "simply" a matter of swapping out old battery containers with new ones? I assume all this refurb work will be completed by EOY?

So looking forward (August?) they can now expect to return to the 7 a month they hit in May and mantain that to EOY.
Then in 2014 move forward to the target of 10 PCM. If that is hit then (obviously) they will turn out 120 a year from then onwards.
This I assume would (assuming EIS of the -9 as projected) a mix of 8's and 9's.This would continue uninterupted for circa 6-7 years when the -10 would then enter the mix (largely replacing the -8?).
Is that a fair summary?
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19562
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:15 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 39):
The problem is what weight is the base weight from which to measure, and then if the manufacturer announces a weight increase, are further weight increases based on the new revised weight, or the original.

IMO overweight is the extra weight after firm configuration. Before firm configuration, the weight will change anyway due to fine-tuning etc. The 787 configuration changed many times, it's almost impossible to determinate what the original weight target was.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2sbvkoy.jpg

[Edited 2013-08-09 03:16:20]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 18

Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:27 am

Quoting parapente (Reply 47):
what is MOATT? (I am sure it is obvious and I am being stupid).

Not stupid at all, should have defined it. Mother of All Tooling Towers, I think.

Quoting parapente (Reply 47):
So about 20 odd aircraft are being refurbed?

Its about 16. Approximately seven of those are actively being worked on.

Quoting parapente (Reply 47):
I imagine from reading parts of the thread that some of this is major reworking but I imagine that for some it is "simply" a matter of swapping out old battery containers with new ones?

These 16 require more than battery swaps. If there are any aircraft that just need a battery swap then it will most likely be in the 13 aircraft that are in pre flight prep:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AtfsHdXQ5rl9dFp4b1hETmNQNzN0b2dSUlRNWEFOOVE&single=true&gid=19&output=html

Quoting parapente (Reply 47):
I assume all this refurb work will be completed by EOY?

No. It could go well into 2015. I think Karel is currently tracking a 10-month turn around for aircraft that enter the EMC for change incorporation and at least 9 have not even entered that phase yet.

Quoting parapente (Reply 47):
This would continue uninterupted for circa 6-7 years when the -10 would then enter the mix (largely replacing the -8?).

I think they will have another rate increase by 2015. Some analysts are thinking it will go to 12/month. Personally I think there appears to be demand/support for 14/month at some point before 787-10 EIS. I think they will open up a surge line in North Charleston to introduce the 787-10 like they are doing with the 787-9 in Everett and at that point the additional line could support the rate increase if necessary.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
Another way to quickly recognize the domestic from the international birds

thanks.

tortugamon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AirlineCritic, Boeing747Girl15, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], groundbird, hjulicher, kalla, Yahoo [Bot] and 179 guests