a320fan
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Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:18 am

I came across this video on Youtube of a Fokker 100 landing somewhere in Latin America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXUpnhj_mtc

Many of the comments are slamming the uploader for what they claim is unsafe flying. I realise that there is a thunderstorm in the vicinity, but the air they are flying through appears smooth and from this video there is no way to determine the actual severity of the storm.

Commenters are also saying the approach itself is too low. Can those with more experience in this regard comment on the sight picture present out the cockpit window for such an operation.
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RussianJet
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:27 am

No idea of how dangerous this was, but it was certainly a cool video - so thanks.
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rfields5421
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:49 am

Quoting a320fan (Thread starter):
Commenters are also saying the approach itself is too low.

At the end of the approach the plane might have been slightly low. I saw two red PAPI/VASI go to 3 red over the approach lights. That might have been camera angle or it might have been normal flare for that aircraft type.

The visibility on approach was fine. The tower obviously could not see the plane on approach due to the storm - but the problem with such storms is that airports are huge. This storm didn't really get strong until the plane was a couple thousand feet down the runway.

I enjoy such videos, but I also think it is armchair quarterbacking at its worst for people to make snap judgements about the 'quality' of such flights/ landings/ etc - with no real knowledge of the specifics.
 
CO777DAL
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:16 am

Check out the video suggestion at the end of that one.
http://youtu.be/YsZqN-uEgQU

Now that is some mad skills. Does anyone know where this is? I'm afraid there are quite a few pilots that would not be able to do that landing.
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flymia
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:26 am

At first it seemed crazy at the airport was just about minumus but the closer they got you really could see the runway. Seems like wind was not a problem and there was no lightning so not sure ho pw bad that storm was to begin with. I'm not an airline pilot but seems fine to me.
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Passedv1
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:28 am

The voice "50" happens just as they cross the threshold...which would be normal. The visibility did not go below 1/2 mile at any point as you can count 10+ runway lights throughout the roll out...I don't see anything really wrong with this.
 
Passedv1
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 3):
Check out the video suggestion at the end of that one.
http://youtu.be/YsZqN-uEgQU

Now that is some mad skills. Does anyone know where this is? I'm afraid there are quite a few pilots that would not be able to do that landing.

I think it's a demo of an RNP approach. I'm pretty sure I've seen it before.

Came across this that some a-netters may find interesting.

Captain Steve Fulton formerly of Alaska Airlines...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zulo2MP02Qw
 
Mir
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:42 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 4):
there was no lightning

There's a flash right around the airport at about 1:17 of the video (and there are more at about 1:53). That combined with the radar return (red right over the field) would make me abandon the approach and wait for things to clear up - a go-around could get quite nasty if one had to be done close to the airport.

As for the three-red PAPI, that doesn't really bother me. The approach didn't seem particularly low at any point.

-Mir
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barney captain
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:55 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
There's a flash right around the airport at about 1:17 of the video (and there are more at about 1:53). That combined with the radar return (red right over the field) would make me abandon the approach and wait for things to clear up - a go-around could get quite nasty if one had to be done close to the airport.

Exactly. Landing with a TRW on top of the airport with visible downdrafts and lighting? Poor decision imo. NO WAY would I have attempted that approach - they got lucky.
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spacecadet
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:21 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 4):
Seems like wind was not a problem and there was no lightning so not sure ho pw bad that storm was to begin with.

In addition to the lightning others pointed out, that sure looked like a microburst just off the right side of the end of the runway when they were about 2 or 3 miles out. It seemed to dissipate and move further off to the right as they got closer, but they would have had no surefire way of predicting that would happen.
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:03 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 9):
that sure looked like a microburst just off the right side of the end of the runway when they were about 2 or 3 miles out.

Really? Looked like rain to me... if it was the predictive Wind shear and Micro burst alerts would have gone off. (if the F100 has them which I think it does)
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airportugal310
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:20 am

Crew didnt seem phased in the least. Just another day of flying for them, it seems

Cool video
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bennett123
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:27 am

Not a pilot myself.

However, the runway was in sight continuously.

Also the aircraft did not seem to be moving about a lot.

Clearly the storm off to the right would need watching during the final approach.

It would not, IMO, be unreasonable to have gone around.

Not sure if they could see the storm visually at all points.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:40 pm

In 1975, I was in a KLM 747 ex Amsterdam, cruising above Long Island for a 3:30PM arrival at JFK. Thunderheads were building, and we were advised our approach might get bumpy. It got bumpy, but nothing out of the ordinary. We hit turbulence over Rockaway Parkway, just before the threshold of 22R. As the aircraft was floating in, port wing dropped suddenly, a lot of power came on, the wing lifted, we flaired, landed softly, and then hit a wall of rain like I had never seen before. Just like the rain the youtube plane encounters after its landing. We got to the gait, and sirens started going off in baggage claim. And people started running. The DC-8 cargo flight just behind us apparently aborted the landing, and flew around. The Eastern 727 behind him, approx. 180 seconds after we touched down crashed in windshear over Rockaway Parkway at the start of New York City rush hour, Friday afternoon. A few people walked away, very few. So if you want the opinion of this armchair quarterback, non pilot, yeah, that's an example of dangerous flying, and everyone on board was very, very lucky.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:01 pm

It seems a lot like Delta 191...but without the wind shear or down draft...so was that skill or luck? Lots of airliners have been brought down by thunderstorms. It seems silly to me to fly into one on purpose without there being an emergency involved.

Sure, they weren't too low on approach and the vis was fine, but that wasn't something as benign as fog...thunderstorms are nasty.

That very heavy rain they got hit with on the runway was very likely the bottom of some serious downdrafts...and things may have ended much differently if they hit that on short final, instead of after landing.

Regardless...I was taught that flying through thunderstorms should always be avoided. How hard is it too just go around and avoid the storm altogether?

Was the risk necessary?
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hivue
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 3):
Does anyone know where this is?

Druk Air landing at Paro, Bhutan, VQPR. Supposedly the only international airport in the country. There are a number of videos on youtube showing approaches from both ends of the runway. I believe that A319s are the largest aircraft that land there.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 6):
I think it's a demo of an RNP approach.

I don't think so. Landings are only allowed in VMC and daylight.

[EDIT: Which is not to say it doesn't require some pretty impressive navigational performance.  Smile ]

[Edited 2013-08-08 12:29:37]
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hivue
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 9):
that sure looked like a microburst
Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 10):
Really? Looked like rain to me

Looked like the kind of weather no smart pilot would land in to me. I don't want anyone piloting a plane I'm riding on looking out the window at a thunderstorm trying to decide if it contains a microburst.

[Edited for spelling.]

[Edited 2013-08-08 12:30:52]
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freeze3192
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:35 pm

Yeah, they got away with it but it was piss poor airmanship IMO. Our knowledge of gust fronts, microbursts and windshear was gained in blood. There's no need for additional bloodshed for those weather phenomena.

This video is a prime example of what us pilots call "painting yourself into a corner." By committing to the landing, they gave themselves 1 option and did not give themselves an out. What if the airport disappeared at 200 ft (like in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtlS0sxFlHk)? Now you're taking a transport category aircraft into a level 5 thunderstorm, with paying passengers in the back.

I would have held until the thunderstorm moved away from the field. No fuel? Okay, go to the alternate. No alternate? Get the plane on the ground somewhere, and quick. Better to be doing a carpet dance in the Chief Pilot's office about why you landed at a small airport that your airline doesn't serve than trying to explain how you flew into a level 5 thunderstorm and bent the airplane. Or even worse yet, be dead along with all of your passengers.

I'm all for not armchair quarterbacking, but when you post a video of you doing something stupid in an airplane, well, you kind of deserve it.
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hivue
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 17):
when you post a video of you doing something stupid in an airplane

One of the stupid things was the FO shooting the video during landing. I thought that wasn't allowed even in CAVOK.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
There's a flash right around the airport at about 1:17 of the video (and there are more at about 1:53). That combined with the radar return (red right over the field) would make me abandon the approach and wait for things to clear up - a go-around could get quite nasty if one had to be done close to the airport.

As for the three-red PAPI, that doesn't really bother me. The approach didn't seem particularly low at any point.

I agree with Mir's assessment. I've landed in heavy rain like that, but it wasn't associated with convective activity. The minute I saw lightning, I would have bugged out.

It's hard to say whether the aircraft was really "low" or not--it may have been on the electronic glideslope the entire time. "VGSI and ILS glidepath not coincident" is a common note on ILS approach plates. Weather aside, it looked like a normal approach.
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hivue
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 19):
The minute I saw lightning, I would have bugged out.

Why wait? The tower told them "...heavy thunderstorm overhead the airport..."
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FlightShadow
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 10):
Really? Looked like rain to me... if it was the predictive Wind shear and Micro burst alerts would have gone off.

If those instruments were present in the aircraft, could they be trusted with surety?
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soon7x7
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:22 am

While the approach was on the low side especially considering the potential of effects from the microburst on the stbd. side of the aircraft, don't see any big deal. Crew was on the power, nice and stabilized...just lower that could have been but could have been puposely done for the flick...
 
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flylku
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:04 am

I am a bit curious, from those of you who fly for the airlines, what the various policies are, if any regarding attempting an approach at an airport above which your radar red weather.

As for me, I like to avoid feeling lucky after the flight is done. Those guys committed themselves to a go around, which based on the information they were provided and what they could see was a real possibility, into weather that their radar painted red and that was producing lightning. This was obviously NOT a stable air mass. What else was lurking out there?
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muzyck
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:19 am

Somewhere in Latin America, this may be more common than in the States. Not to say that there is a higher level of risk that is acceptable, but perhaps the experience of the locals helps to deal with it. Just because it is Latin America does not mean "inferior" talent. Just my .02.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:44 am

Looks like a common summer storm in Havana to me. I've seen approaches made in worse weather, some even were successful.
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DocLightning
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:47 am

Tangentially-related question:

Right as they go to cross the threshold, all four PAPI turn red. But the computer calls "Fifty" just before the threshold passes under the nose and they touch down in the TDZ. Is it normal for all the PAPI to turn red at some distance from the runway even if you are appropriately aligned?

Quoting flylku (Reply 23):
As for me, I like to avoid feeling lucky after the flight is done.

That is a very nice way of wording it.
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warden145
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:38 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 22):
just lower that could have been but could have been puposely done for the flick...

I'm not one to armchair-quarterback pilots, but if there's any truth to the idea of them deliberately flying low for the purposes of making a video, the airline's chief pilot needs to have some choice words with the flight crew, at higher than normal volume.

I sincerely hope that wasn't the reason for them flying a low approach (although, to my untrained eye, based on the PAPI lights they weren't out of bounds)...
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cubastar
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RE: Is This An Example Of Dangerous Flying?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:55 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 22):
from those of you who fly for the airlines, what the various policies are, if any regarding attempting an approach at an airport above which your radar red weather.

"Do not attempt this approach" if you have this radar and the tower has said a Thunderstorm is on the airport!

Quoting iMissPiedmont (Reply 25):
I've seen approaches made in worse weather, some even were successful.

And for those which were not successful??

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
As for me, I like to avoid feeling lucky after the flight is done.

That is a very nice way of wording it.

You can say that again.