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UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:33 am

Here is part two of the UPS A300 crash at BHM due to length. The previous discussion is available here: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM (by ChiGB1973 Aug 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)
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jreuschl
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:39 am

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UPS9308 Notice that UPS sent in I assume a replacement aircraft to pick up the day's packages. Imagine that feeling by those two pilots. Ugh.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:40 am

User currently offlinepolnebmit From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 261, posted Wed Aug 14 2013 20:09:31 your local time (29 minutes 49 secs ago) and read 1350 times:

After looking at the first picture in AV Herald with a birdseye view of the accident scene and where the airport is located, why is it reminding me of KE-801? Different weather, which means different approach methods, but still looks like 5X-1354 is CFIT.

Jesus Christ the wreckage isn't even cool yet and you have it down as a CFIT incident based on nothing more than baseless speculation?
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93Sierra
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:44 am

Here is the approach plate for RWY 18, look at the last step down...

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1308/00050L18.PDF
 
Boeing717200
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 3):

A 3.28 approach slope isn't a big deal for the A300.

This one is a 3.20 and the difference in elevation at one mile is less than 10 feet...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1X0lutG...top_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1X0lutGwZow
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:22 am

I lived in Birmingham and spotted at BHM extensively in the mid and late 90s, even after they lengthened 18/36... I have NEVER seen anything but GA or corporate a/c use that runway. This is puzzling.
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audioace87
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:27 am

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 5):

I lived in Birmingham and spotted at BHM extensively in the mid and late 90s, even after they lengthened 18/36... I have NEVER seen anything but GA or corporate a/c use that runway. This is puzzling.

I spotted heavily between June 2008 - June 2010 and I would concur with that observation.
 
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Bruce
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:28 am

I lived at Birmingham for a couple years till last fall and spotted/photographed there extensively (as you can see on the database) and I only saw a southwest plane land on 18 one time. Last summer, I was on a ORD-BHM flight and we landed on 18, but it was very late (flight had been delayed, gee what else is new?) and it was close to midnight so I did not get any video or pictures. I was puzzled and quite surprised when i saw the terminal off to the right!


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barney captain
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 5):
I have NEVER seen anything but GA or corporate a/c use that runway. This is puzzling.

I believe it was determined that 6/24 was NOTAM'd closed.


BHM 08/034 BHM RWY 6/24 CLSD WEF 1308140900-1308141000
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Joshu
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:57 am

If you had a package on that flight, here's what your tracking would look like:
http://i.imgur.com/owo57si.jpg
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SuseJ772
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 8):
I believe it was determined that 6/24 was NOTAM'd closed.


BHM 08/034 BHM RWY 6/24 CLSD WEF 1308140900-1308141000

What is interesting about this is that the NTSB in their press conference were specifically asked about this and wouldn't confirm this. But it seems pretty clear to me.
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AS737MAX
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:28 am

1308140900-1308141000 Wouldn't that be 9am central-10am central? And the crash was a 4:49am? So both runways were open or is it zulu time? Also what is CFIT?
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audioace87
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:30 am

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 10):

Seems like it was only closed this morning from 9am to 10am
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting audioace87 (Reply 12):
Seems like it was only closed this morning from 9am to 10am

GMT "zulu" time is the time zone used in NOTAMs.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 11):
Also what is CFIT?

Controlled Flight into Terrain.

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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:49 am

These crash threads always become ungainly, and it's difficult to read through the whole thing, so forgive me if this has been covered already.

Did liveatc.net or anyone else manage to capture atc comms before the crash?

And early reports indicated the pilots' bodies were found 100 yards from the wreckage, but photos from the scene show the cockpit relatively intact. It certainly doesn't look like anyone could have been ejected. Has this been explained?
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 11):
1308140900-1308141000 Wouldn't that be 9am central-10am central? And the crash was a 4:49am? So both runways were open or is it zulu time? Also what is CFIT?

0900 Zulu (4am CDT) until 1000 Zulu (5am CDT)

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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting hangarrat (Reply 15):
Did liveatc.net or anyone else manage to capture atc comms before the crash?

Unfortunately, KBHM isn't in the LiveATC network yet, so there's no ATC available to the public at this point.
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93Sierra
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:59 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 4):

It's the not the angle, it just looks like they flew through the last step down. Think about it, they would of broke out of the ceiling and saw the approach lights but not the hill. Look at the distance from the threshold on the plate and the impact of the aircraft and it appears that they never leveled off on that last step down.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:04 am

It might seem odd at first that the crewmembers did not survive given that the cockpit area is basically intact despite heavy damage. After all, people survive car wrecks all the time with similar or even greater levels of damage. The thing is, cars have crumple zones and airbags to protect occupants in crashes. Airplanes don't.
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:08 am

Everyone is focused on 18 because of where the aircraft impacted, but I think there is possibly another alternative. That is that they were given the sandbox and were holding for 6/24 to open (only 10 minutes) and started to make a turn and something went wrong. I thought the plane was much closer to the airfield having not seen any images until now. I guess we'll know soon enough. The whole thing is weird.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 11):
1308140900-1308141000 Wouldn't that be 9am central-10am central? And the crash was a 4:49am? So both runways were open or is it zulu time?

It is Zulu time. Since BHM is 5 hours behind Zulu time (no daylight savings in Zulu time, which is why it's different from London during the summer), that would make the runway closed from 0400-0500 local time.

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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:12 am

I don't know if this has anything to do with the accident, but when I went to work tonight at UPS they had all of the employees take a Hazardous Materials test. Basically just asked us how to identify them and make sure they had been audited. It was strange as we haven't done that as long as I was an employee. Perhaps they are just airing on the side of caution.
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:15 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 18):
's the not the angle, it just looks like they flew through the last step down. Think about it, they would of broke out of the ceiling and saw the approach lights but not the hill. Look at the distance from the threshold on the plate and the impact of the aircraft and it appears that they never leveled off on that last step down


  

Combine this with a runway a little shorter than you normally use, no vertical approach aides and the "black hole effect" giving you the feeling you're higher than you really are = CFIT.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:19 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 18):

Not ready to buy that quite yet. Level segments on a non-precision are not uncommon and we don't know if they were on the LOC or RNAV. Even of you flew past it, your point of impact is going to be a lot closer to the threshold.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 23):

18 has a PAPI. If the PAPI was out the procedure would have been NA because it was still night.

[Edited 2013-08-14 20:22:16]

[Edited 2013-08-14 20:52:51]
 
freakyrat
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:19 am

They have a PAPI on Rwy 18 at BHM and like I posted earlier. I often flew light aircraft into this airport and the short Rwy 18-36 before it was lengthened and it does create a "Black Hole Effect" when landing at night.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:20 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 20):
Everyone is focused on 18 because of where the aircraft impacted, but I think there is possibly another alternative. That is that they were given the sandbox and were holding for 6/24 to open (only 10 minutes) and started to make a turn and something went wrong.

In the press briefing this afternoon, the NTSB said they were on approach to Rwy 18.
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jreuschl
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:24 am

http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...eadly-crash-had-previous-incidents Not like those previous incidents really have anything to do with this crash.

I also notice that there's a UPS truck on the road nearby. What is that doing there?
http://imgick.al.com/home/bama-media...hoto/2013/08/-363f66b0215b0d3d.JPG


Interestingly, it does seem like there are some packages that may be intact in the field. I wouldn't think the NTSB would allow them to take anything, though I suppose looters could some by and steal if the whole perimeter wasn't sealed off.

[Edited 2013-08-14 20:30:05]
 
LH707330
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:25 am

Great article here on the black hole effect:
http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182402-1.html

Edit: This looks a lot like the Pan Am 217 crash in Caracas in 1968.

[Edited 2013-08-14 20:28:52]
 
cpsarras
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:00 am

RIP to the crew.

I also spot in BHM every so often (I live there) and I agree with the others on it being very rare to see airliners on 18/36. I've only seen one landing, a SWA 737 coming to land on 36, and I wasn't even spotting at that time, but driving on the Interstate (I-59) and was about to cross the approach area and noticed it.

I took a pic earlier today, uploaded to the queue, but if it doesn't get approved, here it is:



Click thumbnail for larger size. Taken the afternoon of the accident, hence the haze. Rwy 18/36 is temporarily closed as you can tell. I had to take the picture from the an overpass on the interstate (not fun!!!) and zoomed to my camera's max level in order to get this angle to give some perspective of the runway, terrain and approach.

Christos
BHM

[Edited 2013-08-14 21:14:55]
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jreuschl
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:26 am

Not as tragic as the loss of human life, but this does affect an organization that helps womens' lives greatly, and they are trying to give back:

http://www.myfoxal.com/story/2314168...ent=bufferb4029&utm_medium=twitter

I know UPS would normally just cover cost of merchandise, but I hope they help out this group and offer to cover the retail loss they will receive, being a charitable organization.

[Edited 2013-08-14 21:37:14]
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 28):
I also notice that there's a UPS truck on the road nearby. What is that doing there?

In the incident of aircraft accident, the local station manager is made the nominal local company accident representative for the corporate investigation team. I'm sure he or she was woken quite abruptly with the news - if they were not already working on the early shift - and headed over as soon as contingencies could be made. A company vehicle would generally be used as a mobile command center as well.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:16 am

I'm not usually like this, but while driving in Waikiki today I pulled up next to a UPS truck at a light and glanced at the driver and gave him a shaka and yelled "sorry to hear about earlier today". To which he replied with a shaka and a heartfelt thank you.

My thoughts are with the UPS family

(See? I'm not completely soul-less)
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jreuschl
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:26 am

It actually is impressive some packages look intact. The cargo shipping containers, while they are damaged, are not destroyed. I'm sure the ones on fire are though!
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:41 am

And UPS is notoriously difficult to get them to pay for damaged items that they ship.

I imagine not all items were totally destroyed in this incident, like books, etc. Their tracking page states "All items will be disposed of." I'm not sure that will be true.
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tridum
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:51 am

Its rather sad and working for the UPS airline this is all we talked or thought about today. When our pilots came to fly our flight, I found out that the FO knew one of the deceased and had actually talked to him the night before the fatal flight.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:04 am

Quoting citation501sp (Reply 14):
Quoting AS737MAX (Reply 11):
Also what is CFIT?

Controlled Flight into Terrain.

501sp

An early morning approach to a runway without glideslope and no calls to ATC about problems unfortunately seems to indicate that instrument monitoring and altitude monitoring could be a factor. If this is the case we come back to the discussions about pilot instrument monitoring during an approach, preparations before landing, procedures, pilot fatigue, ability to fly visually, optical illusions etc etc
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:18 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 37):
I imagine not all items were totally destroyed in this incident, like books, etc. Their tracking page states "All items will be disposed of." I'm not sure that will be true.

It actually says 'all merchandise discarded' as they cannot attest to the condition of any one shipment at this time.
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:33 am

If this had been an Asian carrier, we would be up to the 4th thread already. With a load of disparaging comments how their training is inferior, cannot fly to save themselves etc.

It disappoints me that the posters particularly in the US automatically suspect either foreign made, or foreign operated aircraft are inferior.

This accident like many before, and ones still to come demonstrate how important it is to have lateral and vertical guidance. Not having that available in today's world when the technology is readily available is like not having seatbelts fitted to cars.
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flynlr
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:38 am

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 31):

after looking at this photo I am not sure why the runway was closed?. it does not appear to be affected in any way by the incident
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zeke
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:39 am

Quoting flynlr (Reply 43):

Maybe awaiting a flight check of the facility by the FAA.
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:49 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 37):
I imagine not all items were totally destroyed in this incident, like books, etc. Their tracking page states "All items will be disposed of." I'm not sure that will be true.

I'm sure its going to be cheaper to just pay off the "insurance" on almost all packages. Procedures are in place, limits thier liablity. Only reason I could see them trying to locate and inspect cargo is if there is extremely high insurance value cargo onboard.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:49 am

Quoting audioace87 (Reply 6):
Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 5):

I lived in Birmingham and spotted at BHM extensively in the mid and late 90s, even after they lengthened 18/36... I have NEVER seen anything but GA or corporate a/c use that runway. This is puzzling.

I spotted heavily between June 2008 - June 2010 and I would concur with that observation.
Quoting Bruce (Reply 7):
I lived at Birmingham for a couple years till last fall and spotted/photographed there extensively (as you can see on the database) and I only saw a southwest plane land on 18 one time. Last summer, I was on a ORD-BHM flight and we landed on 18, but it was very late (flight had been delayed, gee what else is new?) and it was close to midnight so I did not get any video or pictures. I was puzzled and quite surprised when i saw the terminal off to the right!

I lived in the Birmingham area for over 15 years (hence part of my user name) and never saw commercial planes land on 18, but lo and behold my last two flights into BHM (Jan and Apr this year, both on UA ERJ145 from IAH) both landed on 18 and at night. So it must certainly be less uncommon than it used to be, my guess is with a lot of runway repairs going on recently.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 23):
Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 18):
's the not the angle, it just looks like they flew through the last step down. Think about it, they would of broke out of the ceiling and saw the approach lights but not the hill. Look at the distance from the threshold on the plate and the impact of the aircraft and it appears that they never leveled off on that last step down


  

Combine this with a runway a little shorter than you normally use, no vertical approach aides and the "black hole effect" giving you the feeling you're higher than you really are = CFIT.

No question. When you get into the area where this crash took place there is nothing but darkness from the air, and I can see how easily a crew could become disoriented.

My thoughts and prayers to the families and friends of the two pilots..  
 
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:05 am

Most of the aviation world, and also many of the posters on here have a REACTIVE style of mentality. Airlines don't like to be proactive because they like short term profits and to be honest many of them HOPE in management that some of the flaws and some of the holes in the realm of aviation doesn't catch them with an accident, but it does. There are a lot of areas that could use fixing and many items on the aviation safety guy's to do list. The reality of it is that most things are calculated on money and profit, and that puts a tighter squeeze on the lower ends of the working world such as bank tellers, pilots, representatives of companies and so on, you get the idea. Pilots are in this group of end user type throngs. We fly the airplanes based on the technology and the training available, and based on the cultural aspects of the person sitting next to you as well as the operational culture of the airline and the nation you are in. Combined with the flight environment, technology, fatigue and other factors such as company SOP rules, regulations, we end up with a certain behavior and certain expectation pattern...

It would be nice to have airplanes and airports with the most advanced technology all over the place, but I fly to airports that don;t even have a terminal building adding tons of safety and security issues on its own. Obviously something within all these chains of events were outside of the control of the flight crew for this accident and thus the nature of an accident is something is out of control and not going according to a nominal flow or plan....
having said that, before you post about why didnt they do this and how come that and they should have this...one should think about their own lives and how many shortcuts we take, how many rules we disagree wtih and most importantly how many times a day or week do we have to make up our own procedures and flows to compensate for the missing ones in a so called structured environment....the cause of this accident like MOST others I have seen or worked in is going to be something extremely SIMPLE...yet the root cause of such behavior will come from a deep stem of unorganized company aviation and design culture as well as training.....
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blueflyer
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:25 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 37):
I imagine not all items were totally destroyed in this incident, like books, etc.

Their condition is irrelevant, any package in that aircraft now belongs to the NTSB for however long they please.

How do you know that one of these innocent-looking packages still in good shape doesn't contain the wireless transmitter that sent a signal to the bomb that blew up the aircraft?

(Of course I am not implying terrorism had anything to do with this crash, just using it as an example of the NTSB's need to keep all packages for the purpose of their investigation).

Besides, from a customer service point of view, I don't know that UPS would want to deliver any package in the aircraft even if they could. The packaging box for your brand new laptop may look intact on the outside, but the screen inside is split in two, or the hard drive is damaged, or.... Repeat ad nauseam with every package. Better get rid of them now rather than deal with the cost of possibly getting a customer damage complaint on every single one....

[Edited 2013-08-15 02:28:45]
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zeke
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:58 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 48):
Their condition is irrelevant, any package in that aircraft now belongs to the NTSB for however long they please.

The NTSB has no ownership over the aircraft or its contents. It is an accident site, and will be released once they have their information. Anything removed from the aircraft should be returned to the operator when they are no longer required for the investigation.

Often mail is removed quickly and sent on.
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RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:54 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 48):
Their condition is irrelevant, any package in that aircraft now belongs to the NTSB for however long they please.

No I dont think so. The NTSB is investigating accidents. As long as the items are necessary for the investigation they will be kept. But I assume they are released to their owners as soon as NTSB do not need them for investigation purposes any longer. Any other routine would be surprising.
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HPRamper
Posts: 4595
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting tridum (Reply 38):
Its rather sad and working for the UPS airline this is all we talked or thought about today. When our pilots came to fly our flight, I found out that the FO knew one of the deceased and had actually talked to him the night before the fatal flight.

Even with pilot groups of hundreds, it is a very close knit community. Everyone seems to know one another.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 45):
I'm sure its going to be cheaper to just pay off the "insurance" on almost all packages. Procedures are in place, limits thier liablity. Only reason I could see them trying to locate and inspect cargo is if there is extremely high insurance value cargo onboard.

Since this flight was full of mostly overnight freight, it is now past commitment in any case and every package needs to be paid out for regardless of damage. At least that is what would happen at FX. I'm assuming UPS does things the same way.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:19 am

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 2):
Jesus Christ the wreckage isn't even cool yet and you have it down as a CFIT incident based on nothing more than baseless speculation?

It took far less time for a large number of a.netters to determine that OZ214 was due to Asian pilots' culture, inferior training and skills.

Based on this incident, I think Asian countries should impose restrictions on American pilots flying in their airspace at night   
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
polnebmit
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:10 am

RE: UPS A300 Crash In Birmingham, AL. - BHM Part 2

Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:05 pm

Was the PIC a regular into BHM? Reason I ask is, you're assigned a smaller runway, if the aircraft is heavy with cargo it means you'll need more braking distance, so you try to land sooner on the runway. If it's a runway the PIC has rarely landed on, then do the approach at night, plus the black hole effect, it's not a good mix... Of course, many other factors need to be taken into account that we're unaware of at this time that only the NTSB investigation will reveal.

[Edited 2013-08-15 05:23:49]