magpie75
Topic Author
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:16 pm

AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:34 am

AI has arrived back in Australia today after a 16 year absence, I am sure this will be a winner for them, what are others thoughts on this?
http://m.theage.com.au/travel/travel...the-first-time-20130830-2sue8.html
 
MesaFlyGuy
Posts: 3818
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:51 am

Wow I didn't realize the route was starting so quickly. Didn't they just announce it like a month ago??
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
tayser
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:49 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:09 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 2):

Wow I didn't realize the route was starting so quickly. Didn't they just announce it like a month ago??

they have announced, reannounced and reannounced flying DEL-MEL for a few years now. Only new thing in most recent announcement is triangular routing DEL-MEL-SYD-DEL 4x weekly, DEL-SYD-MEL-DEL x3 weekly.

This is actually "ok, we believe you now Air India" !!
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:07 am

Plane left 2 hours late from MEL today back to DEL.

Good to see a new carrier here but it will be interesting to see how they go. Many of the local Indians here that I know seem to just laugh when you talk about AI and say they will still fly SQ or even continue to backtrack from DXB on EK instead. Not a great reputation.
 
himmat01
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:34 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:24 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 7):
Good to see a new carrier here but it will be interesting to see how they go. Many of the local Indians here that I know seem to just laugh when you talk about AI and say they will still fly SQ or even continue to backtrack from DXB on EK instead. Not a great reputation.

Give it sometime. There have been changes for the better in AI.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
dynamicsguy
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:24 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:02 pm

The flight into Melbourne flew almost right over the top of the Boeing plant at Fishermans Bend. Does anyone know if that was planned? Most flights seem to pass further to the south before turning north, so this one was unusual. Gave us a bit of excitement in an office full of engineers who worked on its design.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:38 pm

Here are videos

Landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8h8CYUudic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XAK5eKIH54

Takeoff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BAl2hxyxak

BTW, Which airline has the longest 787 route to date?
 
hkcanadaexpat
Posts: 1214
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:59 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 11):
BTW, Which airline has the longest 787 route to date?

5 Longest Sectors:
> YYZ-ADD (Ethiopian Airlines): 7,154 miles
> NRT-BOS (Japan Airlines): 6,702 miles
> IAH-LOS (United Airlines): 6,512 miles
> LAX-PVG (United Airlines): 6,485 miles
> DEL-SYD (Air India): 6,476 miles
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:13 pm

Love seeing the arc of the wings on approach and then on landing seeing the wings slowly take a more normal attitude. The 787 is going to be key to AI loosing less money on many routes. It would be very interesting to see by sector how the flights actually perform financially. I have a feeling that some of the routes do not to bad at all and that it is the stifling bureaucracy and interference that sucks up any profit. Anybody know how full the flight was and how bookings are?

Rumour in Toronto is as soon as AI is able to take some of the birds out of the US parking lots, the 787 will be deployed to Toronto. I am sure however that there are quite a few markets that would benefit from fewer seats on offer and a more efficient aircraft.
 
User avatar
legacyins
Posts: 1811
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:11 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:27 pm

Could a passenger take the DEL-SYD-MEL flight and get off in SYD for a few days and continue onto MEL with AI ?
 
747megatop
Posts: 1463
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting himmat01 (Reply 8):
Give it sometime. There have been changes for the better in AI.

Well, we have given them 50 odd years.They are going nowhere and seem rudderless without a strategy. The keep starting and stopping routes (LAX is one of them) and can never seem to make most routes work. AI keeps flying to a handful of US destinations JFK,EWR, ORD without change. In the same time EK for example has grown in North America in the past 13 years from 0 to about 7 destinations; plus; they have a target to double that count very soon.

I don't see AI going anywhere till AI is a Govt run entity. AI should be sold to SQ/LH or some other airline to run it more professionally; then there is a decent chance that it will go somewhere.
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:11 pm

I was looking forward to the water cannon salute.

Think they were trying to be first 787, beating JetStar?

M
 
Spiderguy252
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 21):
Think they were trying to be first 787, beating JetStar?

And that has achieved what exactly? Just a paper record at best.
Vahroone
 
GUYAIR707
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:05 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:36 pm

Good news since Indians are now the fourth largest overseas born population, and their numbers increasing. Now they have to start using AI as their carrier of preference.

GUYAIR707
 
747megatop
Posts: 1463
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:36 pm

For some reason my earlier post got deleted because it was tagged on to a discussion about the exchange rate. But, since there was also a question by someone on how long the route will last i wanted to make a point regarding that, here is a repost without the foreign exchange topic -

Biggest question is how long will this route last?

If AI's Australia venture is not profitable then it will get the axe in a year or two. My money is on it getting the axe in the next couple of years or less because
1) AI has very stiff competition on the India - Australia segment with SQ, CX and MAS offering very good world class products which AI will find hard to match, let alone beat. SQ especially has very good connectivity in terms of serving more cities on either end.
2) Then, on the Australia-Europe route airlines like EK, CX, SQ all offer excellent products and connectivity (far superior to AI)

So, the question then is how does AI stand out and how will they survive apart from the only advantage of a direct non stop to DEL from either SYD or MEL (with one of the cities in fact being actually served 1 stop because of the triangular routing)
I would have given this route a better chance of survival if 9W were flying it just because it is a better run airline.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:34 pm

I wish AI well. But to make these routes work, they need a far better connection experience. One where the customer's biggest complaint is the terminal is like a shopping mall and not delays, dirt, crowding, or customer service. I realize the new terminal at DEL should improve some of that. But unless it is kept work class, AI will have no connections to fill spare seats. Without those connections... the route will lose more in the off seasons than make during the good months.

It is exciting to see the 787s used as inteded; opening up new 'long-thin' routes. I really wish I could be more excited about this offering. I hope AI exceeds my expectations. By as they taught in high school health, "hope is not a method."  
Quoting 747megatop (Reply 10):
Well, we have given them 50 odd years.They are going nowhere and seem rudderless without a strategy.

Well said. Polite, but to the point.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 10):
I don't see AI going anywhere till AI is a Govt run entity.

I believe a typo. I believe it is AI won't go anywhere until it is privatized. If I mis-understood, please rephrase.

AI has to shed its legacy bloated workforce and get its costs down to world class standards to compete. Somehow do that while providing a superior customer experience.

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 13):

Good news since Indians are now the fourth largest overseas born population, and their numbers increasing. Now they have to start using AI as their carrier of preference.

   How can you type with your tongue in cheek?  
Quoting 747megatop (Reply 14):
I would have given this route a better chance of survival if 9W were flying it just because it is a better run airline.

I suspect they are not running the route as it isn't ready. Part of being that 'better run airline.' Perhaps AI will develop the route? Yea... I thought so too.  


Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
747megatop
Posts: 1463
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:46 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
I believe a typo. I believe it is AI won't go anywhere until it is privatized. If I mis-understood, please rephrase.

yes, my bad. It was a typo. I meant to say that AI will go nowhere till it remains a Govt. run entity.
 
L0VE2FLY
Posts: 860
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:54 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
Plane left 2 hours late from MEL today back to DEL.

Good to see a new carrier here but it will be interesting to see how they go. Many of the local Indians here that I know seem to just laugh when you talk about AI and say they will still fly SQ or even continue to backtrack from DXB on EK instead. Not a great reputation.

You can't blame them, late arrival and departure from day one!
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4301
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:19 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
Could a passenger take the DEL-SYD-MEL flight and get off in SYD for a few days and continue onto MEL with AI ?

While I can't say for sure, I believe you could. That sort of stop over rights are pretty normal in Australia's bi-laterals. You can do exactly that on UA's SYD-MEL tag to its SFO/LAX-SYD services.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
VTORD
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:33 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 10):
Well, we have given them 50 odd years

Actually 28. If you trace the history of AI's decline you will see that the start coincides roughly with the time JRD Tata left it for good and the GoI got total control in 1985. Before that they had been a name to reckon with.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 10):
In the same time EK for example has grown in North America in the past 13 years from 0 to about 7

The big difference between EK and AI is that EK is owned by a monarch who is using his airline to build his nation into a tourist and business destination. If you have ever been to DXB you will realize how they are targeting a European, Australian and American clientele to visit as well invest in all the grand real estate projects there.

Now if you look at AI, its owner is a democratically elected coalition government that thinks Civil Aviation is a primarily ministry portfolio for leveraging seats in the next general election. And those coalition partners want their pound of flesh, think AI is a personal limousine for which they do not need to foot the bill when they use it for travel and that culture permeates top down.

You have mentioned earlier that 9W is a better run airline. It is not. They need the EY deal badly. They are hurting bad and their 2nd quarter is expected to be a wreck (as of most Indian Airlines). I love flying 9W myself and half the time I can't tell if I am flying Jet, Jetlite or Jet Konnect but somehow end up paying the same amount of money for the ticket. As someone mentioned earlier (i think the post got deleted) they have a string of destinations that did not work much like AI - JNB, BRU, SFO. Just look at which is the one destination in the US that 9W has - EWR which is packed with Indians.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 10):
I don't see AI going anywhere till AI is a Govt run entity.

I agree 100% with you.
Twitter: @spottingfoodie
 
747megatop
Posts: 1463
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 17):
You can't blame them, late arrival and departure from day one!

To be fair to AI on this one they seem to have done well on days one and two.

Arrival into MEL is just 15 mins late - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20130830/0730Z/VIDP/YMML

DEL - SYD is also not bad - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20130829/1000Z/VIDP/YSSY

From my experiences i would actually say CX is a perpetually delayed airline. My wife has flown twice CX between LAX and BLR in past 4 years; delayed both times by 2+ hours (1st time BLR delay was 7 hours). By brother inlaw was delayed 2+ hours flying between SFO & BLR. But, we don't avoid CX do we?

Reason for avoiding AI are multifold -

1) The strong reputation AI has built over the years of badly maintained interiors of it's aircraft. So, even if they are flying brand new B787s; the impression isn't going to change.

2) Reliability - If you have the misfortune of missing your outbound flight from let's say SYD or miss your onward connection in DEL then AI is the last possible airline you would want to deal with. SQ/BA or LH would be far better to deal with (I can vouch for SQ from their missed connection experience they had in SIN 13 years back; BA also handled missed connection very well for my inlaws in LHR - Dec 2012). AI - you are pretty much on your own  .

3) connectivity - connectivity is bad. Here are some city pairs as an example

a) SYD/MEL/PER to BOM/BLR/MAA - Why would you want to take a multi stop route on AI via DEL? You would rather take a one stop using CX or SQ or MH.

b) SFO/LAX/SEA to BOM/BLR/MAA - AI is non existent. You will have to take BA/EK/LH.

Same goes for most other routes.

4) Last but not the least; in flight service quality - to be fair to AI they are as bad or as good as the airlines in the US. UA, SouthWest etc. are not any better compared to AI. Folks won't prefer one over the other as long as they have a way of getting us from point A to point B at a decent fare.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:49 pm

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 1):
Wow I didn't realize the route was starting so quickly. Didn't they just announce it like a month ago??

What a shock for all the AI bashers on this forum   

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
Many of the local Indians here that I know seem to just laugh when you talk about AI and say they will still fly SQ or even continue to backtrack from DXB on EK instead. Not a great reputation.

If AI offers some really competitive fares, good timings and connections and maintains a reasonably decent service, quite a few of them will quietly fly on AI and continue to bitch about the airline in public....... 

But that remains to be seen......next six months will be crucial for AI....once they go through the Christmas season, they can sort of judge of they're being accepted or not.....they are up against serious competitors like SQ and MS.....

[Edited 2013-08-30 15:50:37]
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting VTORD (Reply 19):
You have mentioned earlier that 9W is a better run airline. It is not. They need the EY deal badly. They are hurting bad and their 2nd quarter is expected to be a wreck (as of most Indian Airlines). I

9W is better run. Its just that *all* other Indian airlines are being sacrificed to try and save AI. There is a cost to those subsidies. and the oil subsidies...

9W is much better run than AI if they were to run their books the same. Interesting tidbits on when AI turned south. But there is no comparison when 9W is playing on such an uneven field. If they had access to foreign routes as easily as AI, they could have done better. If AI hadn't had subsidies, markets would have been more rational.

The debate should be, what airlines are well enough managed to compete with 6E? While its exciting to see 787s being flown by AI, until they are reformed, all this discussion is re-arranging the Titanic's deck chairs.

How will AI do without subsidies? For I strongly question if India can afford them the next few years. The Taj Mahal is going to get a quick and brutal lesson on surviving on its own. Or will India give up something else to keep the subsidy going?    Interesting times ahead.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:33 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
Its just that *all* other Indian airlines are being sacrificed to try and save AI.

Not trying to say that your statements are not true, but remember, AI was around when 9W and other private airlines started up in India and AI is still around.....the painful fact that AI will be kept alive due to its status of a public enterprise, was known to all when they commenced ops in India.....surely none of them expected privatisation of AI in the next few years....yet, 9W and others saw some good times and some bad......all I'm saying is that there are other factors resulting in the bad state of affairs at airlines like 9W, apart from the govt support to AI......

Do we really believe that if AI went away, or got privatised, 9W and others would suddenly flourish? Yes, things would certainly change for the better, but then the other factors dogging them would become apparent.....we need to stop blaming AI for all the ills of the Indian aviation sector....they are a major sticking point, I agree, but not the only one......IT's been gone for almost a year now.....how has that improved the fortunes of 9W? They still had to sell a stake to EY......

Incidentally, would like to clarify that I am a big fan of 9W (before you start bashing me ).....

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
The Taj Mahal is going to get a quick and brutal lesson

"Taj Mahal"....what's that got to do with AI  
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:33 pm

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 13):
Good news since Indians are now the fourth largest overseas born population, and their numbers increasing. Now they have to start using AI as their carrier of preference.

If AI prices are competitive Indian students can definitely use it. There are estimates of 150K Indian students in Australia. Students don't care much about smooth transfers. I doubt any one who favors world class product will switch to AI. AI B787 is not premium heavy. Indian Diplomats/Officials should fill most of 18 x J seats. Over time non-stop may attract others. Unless AI screws up big time, this may actually work.
 
User avatar
388crazy
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:46 am

My friend who is from India and lives in Melbourne, use to always say he would never fly Air India to go home but since looking at the prices he said he would definitely consider flying AI.

Do you think 9W would fly to MEL? I flew them when in India and would definitely fly them if they were an option.
Types: 320, 321, 332, 333, 359, 388, 737, 738, 739, 74L, 744, 752, 753, 763, 77E, 77W, 788, CR7, DH4, E170
Airlines: 6E, 9W, CX, DJ, DL, EK, FJ, IR, JJ, JQ, LB, MI, NZ, QF, SG, SQ, TT, UA, VA
 
User avatar
qfvhoqa
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:50 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:55 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 3):
Many of the local Indians here that I know seem to just laugh when you talk about AI and say they will still fly SQ or even continue to backtrack from DXB on EK instead. Not a great reputation.

I hear this reaction too, usually in the context of "they used to be good but not these days". I have had a few people I know travel to India in the past year or two (including while QF still flew to BOM) and all travelled SQ.

The nature of the India-Australia market is such that both countries are very polycentric. So many pax will end up with connecting flights anyway, since it's unlikely that direct flights will eventuate to BLR/MAA/CCU/HYD. The ease of changing planes in SIN, and to a lesser extent KUL/BKK, means that many pax will choose to connect there than in DEL or BOM. I doubt CX would pick up much traffic to India as it's quite a detour and CX don't have as many Indian destinations. Flying EK seems like madness as you overfly India several hours and almost double your journey time.

Also worth noting is that many of the India-Australia pax speak English, so wouldn't feel like they needed to choose a carrier that speaks Hindi (unlike mainland Chinese who may choose MU/CA/CZ because they speak Mandarin).

I wish AI all the best and hope that they can eventually de-link the flights from their triangle routing.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:28 am

Quoting 388crazy (Reply 25):
Do you think 9W would fly to MEL? I flew them when in India and would definitely fly them if they were an option.

9W have a relationship with QF so who knows. Currently this is achieved via connections at SIN. At this stage I would suspect that QF would ideally like that to continue given the need to fill its seats to SIN from Australia (given that these are now terminator flights)

SYD seem to be chasing a BOM flight, but tbh, I think they are getting ahead of themselves. Let the DEL flight seetle in yet and then look at further routes to chase.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:08 am

I have been on a few AI flights recently, long haul and domestic, and enjoyed the inflight experience. Clean new planes, warm service and so on. My only complaints have been the poor ground service, including website and booking issues. I am also horrified by the tales of what happens up in the cockpit ( from Cessna to 777!!!).


Like in an abusive relationship, I am a devout AI basher but also fly them, bruises and all. I think they will do well serving the Oz market - hauling aunties and uncles and first-time travelers down under.
 
himmat01
Posts: 1016
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:34 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:57 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 10):

Could a passenger take the DEL-SYD-MEL flight and get off in SYD for a few days and continue onto MEL with AI ?

I had travelled between PER and SYD back in 1984 on an AI flight. Ticketed BOM-SIN-PER-SYD-BOM.
An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 28):
My only complaints have been the poor ground service, including website and booking issues

True. Their ground service has always been an issue (although I've had a few great experiences too)......generally, it sucks...

Quoting comorin (Reply 28):
I am also horrified by the tales of what happens up in the cockpit ( from Cessna to 777!!!).

Should be taken with a pinch of salt.......these incidents probably happen on a lot of airlines......AI just gets more publicity (especially on a.net) 
 
747megatop
Posts: 1463
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:27 pm

One question though, why is AI trying to serve both SYD and MEL? Wouldn't they have been better off serving just SYD or just MEL so that it would have been a true non stop to one of these cities to and from DEL?
 
AirIndia111
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:52 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
But there is no comparison when 9W is playing on such an uneven field. If they had access to foreign routes as easily as AI, they could have done better.

Which foreign routes have 9W been denied access to because of AI? They have tried New York, Shanghai, San Francisco, Milan, Johannesburg and have failed on all of them. They aren't too happy with the Brussels hub and plan to move that to Amsterdam. Again, they have already secured the clearance to do so from the ministry.

For EY to invest into 9W, the bilateral allotments with AUH were triplicated by the ministry. This will not only affect Indian airlines but also private airport operators such as GMR / GVK who are investing money to make functional hubs at DEL / BOM. Despite this, 9W still managed to pull it off thanks to their strong lobbying. Also, between 2007 - 2009, AI was asked to cut down 32 profitable routes to the Gulf only for 9W to start operations on these routes.

There is a very good article from an Indian Magazine on how AI was crippled by the government to benefit the private players:

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_mai...asp?filename=Ne190311EXCLUSIVE.asp

Please read it and then decide as to who is playing on an uneven field.

As for the subsidies, they wouldn't have been asking for them had the ministry not forced them to buy those 68 planes which they could never afford, in turn saddling them into huge debts. Also, being a govt. owned airline, AI is forced to operate the loss making North East Domestic Routes which 9W doesn't need to. Then, AI has to operate the Indian PM and Presidential Charters for which they have to disrupt their flight schedules and are often never paid. So in all effect, the govt. takes back a substantial amount of money that it pays to AI.

The truth is that 9W has always had an upper hand over AI. Yet, they have failed with their route planning, fleet utilization (Ordering more planes than they needed and eventually leasing them out to EY/TK/TG/GF) and Brand Management (Jet / Jet Konnect / Jet Lite with total goof up of services). No wonder they are eventually selling themselves off to Etihad and turning into a feeder service for them.

AI on the other hand has improved customer reviews than what they had a decade ago. They have managed to setup a working hub at DEL providing seamless domestic - international connections and have shown improvements in Load Factor, On-Time Performance and Yields (expecting a 20% increase in their revenue by end of this financial year).
 
runzel
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:49 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:09 am

I looked but could not find a reference - if this query is redundant please excuse?

How many carriers ex SYD and/or MEL serving UK/Europe have a stopover in Asia for which a visa is required?
The Indian government requires Australian passport holders to hold a Transit Visa for DEL, near as dammit AUD75 for single or (two-entry)in my most recent experience seven months ago.

Apart from the pain of the visa acquisition process, this is not insignificant incidental cost. Comments please?
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:23 am

Quoting runzel (Reply 33):
How many carriers ex SYD and/or MEL serving UK/Europe have a stopover in Asia for which a visa is required?

When you say "transit" visa, is that if you stopover and leave the airport, or even for simply changing planes?

If it's the former then the glaringly obvious one is UAE. Further, officially PRC does, although PVG (and CAN and PEK?) now allow visa-free transit for 3(?) days.

If you don't already have an ESTA from previous travel to the USA, then the US sort of does! You are required to apply for an ESTA even if you are only in transit.

Other than that, I can't think of any that apply at the moment (although I guess Indonesia and Turkey will shortly count)
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 31):
One question though, why is AI trying to serve both SYD and MEL? Wouldn't they have been better off serving just SYD or just MEL so that it would have been a true non stop to one of these cities to and from DEL?

As AI felt that it likely couldn't make it work with only one city.

Given that a Dom/Int connection in SYD is something that most people seemingly will do just about anything to avoid, that would have cut the attractiveness of the service from MEL if SYD was the only destination. If it was a MEL only flight, even though it is far more convenient to transfer, SYD pax would likely have just continued to use the existing via Asia services.

MEL and SYD may well be close to each other, but we sue do have our differences which make the practical impractical  

Add to that, both the Vic and NSW govts were chasing India flights. The incentives from both were likely more lucrative than just going to one city.

In comi9ng years I can see these flights being separated if things go well, but it may well take some time.
 
runzel
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:49 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:20 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 34):

Transit Visa (capitalised) means, (for India) in simplified form :

Valid for visits of up to 72 hours;
Visa has 15 (fifteen) days validity from date of issue;
Must be obtained before departure from Australia;
Evidence of departure from India is required;
Can not be obtained on arrival
Number of entries (one, two, three, multiple) to be stated.

The cost is AUD74.14 regardless of number of entries, but the term of validity should be noted well.

I travel to/through only a dozen or so countries with any degree of regularity or frequency, but your advice reinforces my belief as to the paucity of countries which require of me an Entry visa, fee'd or not. Let alone a Transit visa with an exorbitant charge. Paying for the dubious delights of the pleasure dome at DEL does not hugely appeal..

The ESTA for the United States with validity for two years can be obtained on line for a few dollars (12 ?) and this too I resent. (Not that this figured in my post)

I love spending money, but loathe wasting it and in general being gouged; under some circumstances it's enough to dissuade me from sampling a carrier, route or frame. Whatever, I'll be flying UA IAHLOS on a 788 in three weeks.
 
aeroflop
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:12 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:47 am

Crewed by 1500 hour Captains and 500 hour F/Os      
 
User avatar
Qatara340
Posts: 1543
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 2:07 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:43 pm

Quoting VTORD (Reply 19):
The big difference between EK and AI is that EK is owned by a monarch who is using his airline to build his nation into a tourist and business destination. If you have ever been to DXB you will realize how they are targeting a European, Australian and American clientele to visit as well invest in all the grand real estate projects there.

AI is government owned as well, ummm...

EK is not owned by the Monarch, but its government owned by the investment arm of the Dubai Gov't.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:22 pm

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 23):
AI was around when 9W and other private airlines started up in India and AI is still around....

AI was supposed to stop receiving subsidies when the private airlines were formed. How much have they received since then?   

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 23):
"Taj Mahal"....what's that got to do with AI

err... symbol of AI. Look at the red shapes around the windows. Ok, 'Old nickname' for the airline.    Maybe I'm showing my age?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sunandan Subramaniam

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 32):
Which foreign routes have 9W been denied access to because of AI?

9W had asked for numerous mid-east routes and awarding was delayed/avoided to protect AI.

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 32):
Please read it and then decide as to who is playing on an uneven field.

Destroying all of Indian aviation just isn't smart. Since I've joined AI, its been the same discussion in a circular fashion. When will AI be reformed? I have three friends who between them pulled out over 5,000 jobs from India due to their frustration in performing snap audits within India. I was shocked they could move that many jobs in under 3 weeks!

I'm not going to get wrapped around any one aspect as I will take the customer's perspective. I live in Los Angeles, the outsourcing capitol of the USA. Thus I have numerous friends who work that industry, import/export, and pharma. I look at the reason they move jobs. Heck, one of the dads at the preschool moves 500 jobs every other week. His business is coordinating software outsourcing and he must be nimble to meet his customers demands (costs, quality, and schedule). Its all with mouse clicks now. If you haven't read "The Lexus and the Olive Tree," please do so. That is now international business.

My issue with AI is India has so much potential, but it is being sacrificed to keep AI running. Privatize it or let it fail. Only then will Indian aviation be reformed enough to be truly competitive. India has the O&D to put the mid-east hubs under. Look at the HUGE O&D traffic! SE Asia to Europe/Africa should be hubbing at MAA or DEL. With even a half baked network the geographic advantage would favor the Indian airlines. No reason the Indian airlines shouldn't be doing very well on that routing to Europe.

There is always another excuse for AI. I've heard so many over the years I'm numb to them now. Something is really wrong with Indian aviation when out of the top four airlines (AI, IT, 9W, and 6E), only *one* is healthy.

Part of the issue is India will not sign new bilaterals as they are protecting AI and not being willing to expand air service agreements. Doubt me? Do a bit of research into the Korean auto companies desire to expand *with* new access to ICN. When that was denied, they didn't fly AI, they moved on to Thailand (and its higher wages).

There is a HUGE and growing cost to protecting AI. 9W has paid... but more so the Indian population. 9W hasn't been perfectly run. But every LAX based 'road warrior' I know who flies in India more than 6X times per year only flies them.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ojas
Posts: 1116
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:23 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
AI was supposed to stop receiving subsidies when the private airlines were formed. How much have they received since then?

If at all AI stopped receiving subisidies or rather get out of Govt clutches, it will be run much better than what it is now. Throw out all incompetent staff and run it like any other airline. This airline has far too many brilliant minds still working for AI and the foundation of the airline is very strong. For them to rebound is much easier than any other airline.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
9W had asked for numerous mid-east routes and awarding was delayed/avoided to protect AI.

And, sir, what has happened when they were granted? Let me list out some routes terminated by 9W on the India ME sector.

DEL KWI
COK KWI non stop and restarted with one stop
HYD DXB
MAA DXB
CCJ DOH
CCJ MCT
TRV SHJ
BOM RUH reduced from 2 daily to daily

I'm curious to know what reasoning you would present for the termination of these routes?

Yes, the ME routes were protected for AI, however ever since the bilaterals have opened up, the competition has increased and 9W has not been able to sustain it.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
I'm not going to get wrapped around any one aspect as I will take the customer's perspective. I live in Los Angeles, the outsourcing capitol of the USA. Thus I have numerous friends who work that industry, import/export, and pharma. I look at the reason they move jobs. Heck, one of the dads at the preschool moves 500 jobs every other week. His business is coordinating software outsourcing and he must be nimble to meet his customers demands (costs, quality, and schedule). Its all with mouse clicks now. If you haven't read "The Lexus and the Olive Tree," please do so. That is now international business.

My issue with AI is India has so much potential, but it is being sacrificed to keep AI running. Privatize it or let it fail. Only then will Indian aviation be reformed enough to be truly competitive. India has the O&D to put the mid-east hubs under. Look at the HUGE O&D traffic! SE Asia to Europe/Africa should be hubbing at MAA or DEL. With even a half baked network the geographic advantage would favor the Indian airlines. No reason the Indian airlines shouldn't be doing very well on that routing to Europe.

There is always another excuse for AI. I've heard so many over the years I'm numb to them now. Something is really wrong with Indian aviation when out of the top four airlines (AI, IT, 9W, and 6E), only *one* is healthy.

Part of the issue is India will not sign new bilaterals as they are protecting AI and not being willing to expand air service agreements. Doubt me? Do a bit of research into the Korean auto companies desire to expand *with* new access to ICN. When that was denied, they didn't fly AI, they moved on to Thailand (and its higher wages).

There is a HUGE and growing cost to protecting AI. 9W has paid... but more so the Indian population. 9W hasn't been perfectly run. But every LAX based 'road warrior' I know who flies in India more than 6X times per year only flies them.

Agreed to an extent, let AI be in it's own and yes it can compete like any other airline. Their management is experienced and can take comprehensive decisions. thanks to Govt meddling they are reduced to a joke.

9Ws incomptenecy has more to do with its working culture and Govt policies than anyone else. 9W is itself guilty of getting the 5 year rule to fly international rule and had the ministry in it's pockets till a couple of years ago. They are possibly the only airline in this world to screw up economics of a B77W. Are you going to blame AI for that?

It is the govt that needs to be blamed squarely for the mess the Indian aviation and for that matter India is in today. Protecting AI is just a sham, it is all about suitcases being delivered to the minsters.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 30):
True. Their ground service has always been an issue (although I've had a few great experiences too)......generally, it sucks...

An airline is not just the flight, it is as much the ground experience, and disruption . exception handling as well. Until AI gets it, it will remain a bottom-feeder airline as higher yield passengers will just not want to deal with the on-the-ground hassles.

Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 30):
Should be taken with a pinch of salt.......these incidents probably happen on a lot of airlines......AI just gets more publicity (especially on a.net)

Even with a pinch of salt, there is no denying that the Sky Gods culture still permeates AI flight crew, which is why we hear so much about these incidents.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 38):
AI is government owned as well, ummm...

Government ownership is not the issue, SQ is govt owned too. It is when the govt starts interfering with the management of the airline, instead of letting professionals do their job, that problems begin.

This is a problem (to varying extents) with privately-owned airlines as well -- owners need to step back and let the professionals manage their airlines. KF suffered from way too much owner interference. Jet too, but not to the same extreme. Not sure about Spicejet. Indigo appears to be a positive example on minimal interference by the owners, though that may be changing.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4301
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 41):
Government ownership is not the issue, SQ is govt owned too.

No its NOT!
You could call it splitting hairs, but I think the distinction is important for this discussion. SQ is majority owned by Tamerisk (sp?), which I have seen called many things, but in the end it is the SIN governments sovereign wealth/superannuation fund. They are FAR more likely to act in a commercially responsible manner than government ministers and it is this lack of commercial responsibility that is the root cause a lot of AI problems.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:13 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 39):
Quoting Gr8circle (Reply 23):"Taj Mahal"....what's that got to do with AI
err... symbol of AI. Look at the red shapes around the windows. Ok, 'Old nickname' for the airline. Maybe I'm showing my age?

AI's window designs were never based on the Taj Mahal......they are based on ancient Indian palaces which predate the Taj by several hundreds of years.......the AI theme in the 1970s (when the palace windows were introduced on the B747) was always "your palace in the sky"........although "Mahal" translates to "palace" the Taj Mahal is actually a tomb, not a palace, and has never been the basis of AI's "palace" theme....that's why I asked the question...I sort of got where you're confusing the Taj with AI....just wanted to clear the confusion.....   
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 42):
Tamerisk (sp?)

Temesek  
Quoting gemuser (Reply 42):
it is the SIN governments sovereign wealth/superannuation fund

Precisely. There is a huge gulf between been run by a sovereign wealth fund and been the play thing of ministers. SQ has basically nothing to do with the Singapore government whatsoever, other than the fact that they right the dividend cheques to a corporation that indirectly provides a service to the government.

http://www.temasek.com.sg/
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
qfvhoqa
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:50 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 41):
Government ownership is not the issue, SQ is govt owned too. It is when the govt starts interfering with the management of the airline, instead of letting professionals do their job, that problems begin.

As others have said, SQ doesn't suffer the same issues as other "government-owned" airlines. Mainly due to the arms-length operation, so the government doesn't meddle in SQ's dealings. The Singaporean government actually encourages other airlines to base in SIN, even to SQ's detriment as their aim is to attract pax to SIN, not support SQ.

See MH & TG and their recent issues when the government meddled in the airline's operation (like MH flying KUL-CPT-EZE or TG ordering A345s). Even CZ suffers when the CAAC bars it from certain routes and allocates aircraft regardless of need.

AI will certainly do better if the government keeps out of its business, moreso if AI is privatised. But I'm not sure it would be smooth sailing after privatisation. AI will be saddled with many legacy costs and a bloated workforce resistant to cost reductions, ala BA, AZ, QF, IB after their respective privatisations.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11828
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
If at all AI stopped receiving subisidies or rather get out of Govt clutches, it will be run much better than what it is now. Throw out all incompetent staff and run it like any other airline.

We can agree on that. But I have no illusions that will happen. There has been zero momentum towards that end the entire time I've been on a.net. There is a time for reform and a time to just admit its not going to happen.

I believe we have reached the later point.

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
I'm curious to know what reasoning you would present for the termination of these routes?

None to argue. 9W over-expanded. But there mistake was made worse by the conditions I listed above.

Quoting ojas (Reply 40):
They are possibly the only airline in this world to screw up economics of a B77W. Are you going to blame AI for that?

Of course not. I place the blame squarely on pitting a first class cabin. I could go into my normal rant on that; there are only certain airlines that are able to compete in that market: BA, LH, SQ, QF, and to a lesser degree EK. Yes, lesser (I'm certain EK loses money on first, but perhaps not after its marketing advantage). I was actually surprised 9W put in a first class international cabin. It was their first major strategic move I strongly disapproved of.

I make no claims that 9W in infallible. I'm sure they've made dozy mistakes. But it is a competitive environment which amplifies mistakes due to AI's advantages.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:27 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 42):
No its NOT!
You could call it splitting hairs, but I think the distinction is important for this discussion. SQ is majority owned by Tamerisk (sp?), which I have seen called many things, but in the end it is the SIN governments sovereign wealth/superannuation fund.

That is precisely my point. Note that Temasek is 100% a government owned entity, and SQ is 60% owned by Temasek. So SQ is Government--owned. But the Govt keeps it at arms length as does not interfere with the management of the airline.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44):
Precisely. There is a huge gulf between been run by a sovereign wealth fund and been the play thing of ministers. SQ has basically nothing to do with the Singapore government whatsoever, other than the fact that they right the dividend cheques to a corporation that indirectly provides a service to the government.

Yes, and as stated above, other than the fact the Govt is the majority shareholder via Temasek.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 45):
As others have said, SQ doesn't suffer the same issues as other "government-owned" airlines. Mainly due to the arms-length operation, so the government doesn't meddle in SQ's dealings. The Singaporean government actually encourages other airlines to base in SIN, even to SQ's detriment as their aim is to attract pax to SIN, not support SQ.

Again, that is precisely my point. Similar model as EK, incidentally.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:06 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
9W is better run. Its just that *all* other Indian airlines are being sacrificed to try and save AI.

Isn't it a moot point with 9W/EY deal? AI is off ventilator and has to survive on its own. Being a mixed economy, every sector in India has one public player along with several private players. Every other sector is doing well except aviation. Can you take a guess, why?
 
747megatop
Posts: 1463
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: AI Back In Australia, The 787 Has Landed.

Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 48):
Every other sector is doing well except aviation. Can you take a guess, why?

  
High taxes on ATF.
Bad policies from Ministry Of Civil Aviation

Just a couple of guesses to start with.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 48):
Isn't it a moot point with 9W/EY deal?

Is it? Why did EY wooo 9W versus AI then? Also, nobody is in a hurry to pull AI into any kind of deal. The Prime Minister's Office is having to push the entry of AI into Star Alliance; Star Alliance seems to be in no hurry to pull AI in. Even if they do it most probably is definitely not for the quality of service that AI can bring to the table, is it? http://businesstoday.intoday.in/stor...case-global-alliance/1/194691.html

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 32andBelow, Areopagus, b377, blockski, bohica, flyguy89, hummingbird, ikolkyo, jco613, Majestic-12 [Bot], meecrob, mwh787, zkanz and 191 guests