AF185
Topic Author
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:58 am

Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:18 am

Hi all,

Interesting article from SCMP regarding Finnair's strategy in Asia. Some key points from the article:

> Around half of AY revenue is coming from Asia routes
> AY plans to double its revenue from ASIA-Finland traffic by 2020
> 1 Asian route addition planned every year
> Every day, 7,000 Chinese people are getting on a plane for the first time
> AY plans to increase aircraft size to increase volume

Full story here: http://www.scmp.com/business/compani...s-key-finnair-asian-revenue-target
 
Spiderguy252
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
1 Asian route addition planned every year

An Indian destination or two, hopefully? Perhaps a return to BOM?

I also notice that they will begin seasonal flights (charters?) to GOI starting December. This is aside from their sole staple destination in the country at present, DEL.
Vahroone
 
okay
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:32 am

And finally something will happen at HEL to accomodate that growth. The state budget promises 200 million euros for Helsinki-Vantaa Airport for further development. The Airport officials said that with this money they can secure investments up to 1 billion in order to develop the airport for future needs.

Source (in English)
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:47 am

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 1):
An Indian destination or two, hopefully? Perhaps a return to BOM?

I also notice that they will begin seasonal flights (charters?) to GOI starting December. This is aside from their sole staple destination in the country at present, DEL.

Returning to BOM would be cool or any new city in India! They just don't have a similar geographical advantage there compairing to Japan and China, thinking the Great Circle routes. My bet is their next (14th) Asian city will be in China, they soon need more widebodies though.

Actually they have had winter charters to Goa for a long time, the new thing in the coming winter is the A321ER (sharklet) used instead of 757. There's a tech stop in Sharjah.
 
okay
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:56 am

Quoting HELyes (Reply 3):

I'm quite looking forward to seeing the interior of the new A321ER, it is going to be used on both scheduled and charter flights, I just hope it wont be like the 757, aka sardine cans. What is cool about them is that AY is trying a new concept of IFE, there are no over head monitors nor seatback monitors, but pax will be handed out a tablet. How it is all organised and more importantly how it is going to work in practice is interesting. Any other airline out there that does IFE this way?

[Edited 2013-09-02 01:57:27]
 
Spiderguy252
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:02 am

Quoting HELyes (Reply 3):
They just don't have a similar geographical advantage there compairing to Japan and China, thinking the Great Circle routes.

Though back in the mid-2000s they did go about on a heavy advertising spree down here claiming that they were the fastest way to get to Europe and JFK via HEL.

http://www.businessimages.info/clients/finnair/index.html
Vahroone
 
okay
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:06 am

Quoting Spiderguy252 (Reply 5):

AFAIK Americas-India great circle route passes through Finland, Europe-India not so much.
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:19 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 4):

Putting 209 seats on the new A321ER doesn't sound awfully comfortable but after all their main job is to carry charter passengers to the Canaries and Mediterranean. Yes really curious too see how the tablet project works in practise, Hawaiian Airlines did it with iPad Minis:

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/08/haw...s-in-flight-entertainment-devices/
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:36 am

Quoting okAY (Reply 6):
AFAIK Americas-India great circle route passes through Finland, Europe-India not so much.

Yes JFK-HEL-BOM looks ideal on the map, perhaps they will make it work one day.
 
sailas
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:58 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:53 pm

I like to see HEL grow, and i like to see AY grow. But i do hate the current helsinki airport. There is nothing about it i do like. Im a big fan of Munich airport.
I do hope to see a new terminal between the 2 parallel runways.
How is the JAL 787 route doing? AY takes of nearly at the same time as JAL? Can they really fill those 2 planes?
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
User avatar
allrite
Posts: 2358
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 4):
What is cool about them is that AY is trying a new concept of IFE, there are no over head monitors nor seatback monitors, but pax will be handed out a tablet. How it is all organised and more importantly how it is going to work in practice is interesting. Any other airline out there that does IFE this way?

Quite common to supply tablet based IFE in the Asia-Pacific, especially with LCCs. Most are preloaded with entertainment, but Qantas on their 767s and Scoot, for instance, wirelessly stream entertainment to supplied iPads or personal devices. On Qantas they can be mounted on the seats to act as pseudo seatback IFE.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 628
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:32 pm

Can anyone remind me (repeat) what is the unique advantage of Helsinki and why it is able to sustain such a large presence in Asia despite the country relative small size.

I know that on the GC map it's the shortest way to Asia yet from a pure Demand perspective surely it has to attract a lot customers from Scandinavia in order to make the network work. from a competitive point of view i'm also wondering how Finland's high wage cost can compete with other European countries and how Finnair is able to compete with the ME careers that also offer a one stop connection? (albeit with longer travel times)
 
Scorp82
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:51 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
> 1 Asian route addition planned every year

Very interesting article indeed. The article also advises that adding destinations in China is part of the expansion plan, but no possible future destinations are being disclosed.

As such, we can speculate that AY may be considering to add CTU, XMN, TAO, NKG, and/or SHE as possible destinations in China. I believe AY used to serve CAN and perhaps AY is also considering returning to CAN in the near future.
 
smbukas
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:17 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:26 pm

Finnair's Asian strategy is not so unique, but I could say it is very well managed.

"Shortest way to Asia" is all about the branding. Passengers do not care so much about 1hour travel difference when total travel time is 10hours and up. Technically, HEL, ARN, CPH, TLL and many other airports have more less the same geographical advantage. The same with DXB - there are better points geographically, but DXB works best as best executed strategy.

I think, for the future, Finnair strategy should me more about connecting 2ndary cities in Europe with 2ndary cities in Asia. That's way I suggest they should look more to underserved China cities, because there are many carriers in BOM and CAN.

The same goes with Europe. I don't think high yield passengers from LON, CDG, AMS could choose Finnair. But passengers from secondary cities could do. For example, at VNO we have very small presence of TK and now MEB3 are present (or will be present in next 5 years). That makes AY the best possible option to travel to Asia. The same goes in RIX, TLL, GOT, BUD and some other.

The efficiency are also important for them, as all the traffic AY has is definitely not high-yielding. I traveled to Asia on AY in business few times and loads where more, despite the fact AY was more then third cheaper in Business then LH, SK, TK. Their financial reports show that deal with FlyBe helped them a lot to reduce cost of regional operation.

Play in their own niche, not to grow to fast, maintain relatively low costs and develop brand in Asia - that is I think keys for Finnair's future.
 
lucce
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:12 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 11):

Can anyone remind me (repeat) what is the unique advantage of Helsinki and why it is able to sustain such a large presence in Asia despite the country relative small size.

Well, like their slogan says "the shortest route between Europe and Asia". That's what it's all about. Location, location, location. They can support a larger variety of destinations in Asia because they can turn their aircraft in 24h meaning only one aircraft per daily route. Go to lets say ARN and you already loose this advantage to some destinations. Secondly HEL is not too far from western Europe meaning efficient use of aircraft there as well. From example SVO is farther away so that they cant use their European fleet so efficiently.

Secondly, as mentioned, every time a aircraft flies from Europe to Asia is free advertisement for AY.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 11):
from a competitive point of view i'm also wondering how Finland's high wage cost can compete with other European countries
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...g-and-ryanair-excel-on-costs-97635 Not actually that high.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 7):
Putting 209 seats on the new A321ER doesn't sound awfully comfortable but after all their main job is to carry charter passengers to the Canaries and Mediterranean.

Well LX has 207 seats in theirs if you count the middle seats in business class permanently blocked to reduce the seat count to 200 so that they dont need the 5th FA. LH has 205 and they fly them on routes over four hours long.
 
dalca
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:36 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 11):

Can anyone remind me (repeat) what is the unique advantage of Helsinki and why it is able to sustain such a large presence in Asia despite the country relative small size.

Well, like their slogan says "the shortest route between Europe and Asia". That's what it's all about. Location, location, location. They can support a larger variety of destinations in Asia because they can turn their aircraft in 24h meaning only one aircraft per daily route. Go to lets say ARN and you already loose this advantage to some destinations. Secondly HEL is not too far from western Europe meaning efficient use of aircraft there as well. From example SVO is farther away so that they cant use their European fleet so efficiently

I read an article in Airports Monthly a couple of years ago about HEL in which it said that concerning CO2 emissions, it is better for a plabe to go eg DEL-HEL-JFK then to go DEL-JFK non-stop. It burns less fuel and it is able to take a higher cargo payload.
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
 
spud757
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:20 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:19 pm

AY needs to work on it's soft product in Y, reference to catering, on it's long-haul Asia routes. They appear to have different policies around charging for drinks depending on the destination city. It's confusing what passengers can expect. To compete with the ME carriers AY needs one standard offering long-haul; product consistency regardless of the city served.
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting sailas (Reply 9):
How is the JAL 787 route doing? AY takes of nearly at the same time as JAL? Can they really fill those 2 planes?

Double daily service to NRT now but the number of seats didn't double, JAL 787 has just 186 (42/144) seats, comparing to max 297 on AY. Before AY hoped for more slots in NRT, this codeshare probably was the best deal they got.

This is how JAL promote their Helsinki service/connections: http://www.jal.co.jp/en/helsinki/

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
from a competitive point of view i'm also wondering how Finland's high wage cost can compete with other European countries
Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...g-and-ryanair-excel-on-costs-97635 Not actually that high.

Their labour costs are relatively low, surprised me too when I first read the article.

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
Well LX has 207 seats in theirs if you count the middle seats in business class permanently blocked to reduce the seat count to 200 so that they dont need the 5th FA. LH has 205 and they fly them on routes over four hours long.

Oh yes you are right, I was thinking their existing A321 with 196 seats but the new A321ER can't be that bad then.
 
sailas
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:58 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:52 pm

Its good to hear, and hope JAL stays with us for a long time!

I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757??? I always thought CDG was a bleeding route and only feasible when AF shared the AY plane. If those flights really are so overbooked, i guess its only good news, and hopefully AY will order more A321s.
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:42 pm

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
> Every day, 7,000 Chinese people are getting on a plane for the first time

That number will probably drop once China's economy tanks, and the population begins to age.

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
> Around half of AY revenue is coming from Asia routes

I have a hunch this may be due to codesharing by JL as well. A friend of mine flew HEL-NRT-TPE once. He said it was very much cheaper than flying direct, and the service was great.
AY has a lot of loyal customers in Japan, many of whom are businesses doing work in western Europe.

I myself wanna get over to HEL sometime. I know a young lass who lives there  
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
GCT64
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting sailas (Reply 18):

I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757???

I don't think that is correct. I believe BRU is A319s and ERJs and CDG is A320/1s and ERJs. No A340 or B757 that I can see.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,(..53 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
User avatar
HELyes
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting spud757 (Reply 16):
AY needs to work on it's soft product in Y, reference to catering, on it's long-haul Asia routes. They appear to have different policies around charging for drinks depending on the destination city.

According to their website only BKK is different from the other Asia routes, free beer/wine with meals only:

"All our meals include free-of-charge non-alcoholic drinks, beer and wine. Alcoholic beverages are available for purchase at all other times."

Other Asia routes:

"Soft drinks, juices, water, beer, and white and red wine are all served free of charge. Other alcoholic beverages are available for purchase."

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 20):
I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757???
Quoting GCT64 (Reply 20):
I don't think that is correct. I believe BRU is A319s and ERJs and CDG is A320/1s and ERJs. No A340 or B757 that I can see.

Yes this summer season they fly A343 to BRU every Thu morning, the reason is the extra cargo capacity needed.
And they have occasionally put 757 on the scheduled Euro routes, the 757's are leaving the fleet though and replaced by A321ER "Sharklet", the first one arriving this week.
 
Farzan
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:55 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:22 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
A friend of mine flew HEL-NRT-TPE once. He said it was very much cheaper than flying direct, and the service was great.

Not sure how your "friend" came to that conculsion since there are no direct flights between HEL and TPE?
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting Farzan (Reply 22):
Not sure how your "friend" came to that conculsion since there are no direct flights between HEL and TPE?

Well that was hearsay. Maybe he was looking at different options.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
okay
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:26 am

Quoting HELyes (Reply 21):
Yes this summer season they fly A343 to BRU every Thu morning, the reason is the extra cargo capacity needed.
And they have occasionally put 757 on the scheduled Euro routes, the 757's are leaving the fleet though and replaced by A321ER "Sharklet", the first one arriving this week.
Quoting sailas (Reply 18):
I also saw that AY fly t Brussels with a A340 and CDG with a 757??? I always thought CDG was a bleeding route and only feasible when AF shared the AY plane. If those flights really are so overbooked, i guess its only good news, and hopefully AY will order more A321s.
BRU is a hub for Finnair Cargo, thus the need for extra cargo capacity, which was provided by putting a pax version A343 on the route once a week. 757 on scheduled routes has been done before, when ever extra capacity is needed. Usually I have seen it replacing Airbuses to Lapland, but why not to Paris if need is there.

Quoting smbukas (Reply 13):
I think, for the future, Finnair strategy should me more about connecting 2ndary cities in Europe with 2ndary cities in Asia. That's way I suggest they should look more to underserved China cities, because there are many carriers in BOM and CAN.

This has been AY's strategy for the past 10 odd years. Many of the primary cities AY is serving in Asia and Europe AY has been serving for decades. BKK since 1976, NRT since 1983, SIN since 1985, PEK since 1988, Osaka since 1995 to name a few. Same with primary European cities, I wont start listing them all, but CDG since 1953 and LHR since 1954.

AY is now looking for secondary cities in Europe, such as Lyon, Manchester, many cities in Germany to attract pax feed for long haul. Looking for succesful secondary cities in Asia is something every Euopean airline is doing at the moment.

[Edited 2013-09-02 22:33:24]
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:57 am

Quoting Farzan (Reply 22):
According to their website only BKK is different from the other Asia routes, free beer/wine with meals only:

"All our meals include free-of-charge non-alcoholic drinks, beer and wine. Alcoholic beverages are available for purchase at all other times."

Other Asia routes:

"Soft drinks, juices, water, beer, and white and red wine are all served free of charge. Other alcoholic beverages are available for purchase."

What is the reasoning behind the difference ?
I don't think that only alcoholics fly to BKK.
 
smbukas
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:17 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 25):
I don't think that only alcoholics fly to BKK.

Yes, maybe to call these passengers alcoholics are a bit too strong, but I am familiar with alcohol consumption of X European airline. Alcohol consumption on a route to BKK is from 3 to 5 times higher then on routes to HKG, PEK, NRT.

So AY decision makes sense, BKK route I think is the most price sensitive and service on board may be more expensive then on other routes.
 
User avatar
teme82
Posts: 1197
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:38 am

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
I myself wanna get over to HEL sometime. I know a young lass who lives there

When you get here do take some time exploring the cities around the airport  
Flying high and low
 
jumpjets
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:17 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:17 am

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
Well LX has 207 seats in theirs if you count the middle seats in business class permanently blocked to reduce the seat count to 200 so that they dont need the 5th FA. LH has 205 and they fly them on routes over four hours long.
Quoting HELyes (Reply 7):
Putting 209 seats on the new A321ER doesn't sound awfully comfortable

mmm yes, not much leg room there I guess - though with new slimmer seats it may not be that bad.

BA, perhaps not noted for its generous legroom for Y passengers, only manages to fit in 188 in domestic [all Y] configuration and only around 150 for its mid-haul configured 321s to the eastern med and beyond.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 230
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:12 pm

Quoting teme82 (Reply 27):
Yes, maybe to call these passengers alcoholics are a bit too strong, but I am familiar with alcohol consumption of X European airline. Alcohol consumption on a route to BKK is from 3 to 5 times higher then on routes to HKG, PEK, NRT.

So AY decision makes sense, BKK route I think is the most price sensitive and service on board may be more expensive then on other routes.

I knew that we like our alcohol here in BK but i did not expected that it makes that much difference for the planes flying to Thailand.
 
mdavies06
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:28 pm

RE: Finnair's Key Asian Network

Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 29):
Quoting teme82 (Reply 27):
Yes, maybe to call these passengers alcoholics are a bit too strong, but I am familiar with alcohol consumption of X European airline. Alcohol consumption on a route to BKK is from 3 to 5 times higher then on routes to HKG, PEK, NRT.

So AY decision makes sense, BKK route I think is the most price sensitive and service on board may be more expensive then on other routes.

I knew that we like our alcohol here in BK but i did not expected that it makes that much difference for the planes flying to Thailand.

Perhaps this is because most pax flying Europe - BKK are European rather than Asian? Just a guess.