LZ129
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Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:14 pm

Hi all,

today I was reading an article about the problems Iranian airlines have because they can't get American or European jets and spare parts, and I was wondering: why don't they just buy Russian aircraft instead? Does Russia support the embargo, too? Is a new built Il-96 so much worse than a 20 year old A300?
Looking forward to your opinions.

Regards

Simon
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:20 pm

It is possible current day Russian built jets have western content and are subject to sanctions. Experts can weigh in.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:37 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):

Yes, all aircraft built all over the world are joint efforts with embargo following nations. It would be expensive to de-content and re-certify these aircraft with technology from non-embargo nations only, practically and financially impossible if technically feasible.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BlueLine
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
It is possible current day Russian built jets have western content and are subject to sanctions. Experts can weigh in.

While not an expert, that is the reason why.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
It is possible current day Russian built jets have western content and are subject to sanctions. Experts can weigh in.

IIRC, some do and some don't.

The Sukhoi Superjet has significant Western content including engines with GE-made parts and design input from Boeing. However, many Antonovs don't have much if any Western content and there were plans to build the An-140 in Iran.

Iran also has close ties with China, but the Iranians will not be able to order the COMAC C919 because of the US and European-made avionics and engines.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
itrade
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:41 pm

Buy 'em from China. The PRC govt couldn't give a flip about the U.S. embargo...
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting itrade (Reply 5):
Buy 'em from China. The PRC govt couldn't give a flip about the U.S. embargo...

As I said before:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
the Iranians will not be able to order the COMAC C919 because of the US and European-made avionics and engines.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
LZ129
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):

Interesting. Does that mean, Russia is not allowed to export these planes to Iran or does that mean the problem is that they still can't get the spares? Because if the latter is what you are suggesting, it would seem to me that it is still better than using an aircraft where 100% of the spare parts you need are from the E.U. or the U.S..
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:45 pm

Apart from possible embargo issues, I expect Iran is as aware as anyone else of the poor reputation of Russian manufacturers for supporting their products after delivery, which has deterred many potential customers for Russian aircraft over the years.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:46 pm

They could have the AN158 , they already build the AN140 under license however the Supperjet contains to many western components avionics and is subject to export restrictions.

They wouldn't go for the Tupolev TU204 family with Russian engines since they are virtually hand built and delivery can not be guaranteed with any reliability,
The larger IL96m suffer similarly.

Banking limitations remain in force and no US or EU company or their direct agents can fund or arrange suitable leasing finance.

If anything I think Tehran could be looking a little further north east if China can get its act together.

In the meantime it's old Airbus models acquired via circuatus routes involving central Asian nations.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 6):
As I said before:

How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?
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reffado
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):

A very good point. This, combined with the fact that the US and the international community depend too much on China to actually punish them, makes them a quite good choice.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?

Something tells me if the US or European manufacturers found out they would stop delivering parts to the Chinese. They aren't going to want their national governments fining them for ignoring the embargo.
Pat
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PHX787
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?

The US wouldn't sell the parts needed for those planes to China.
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itrade
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
Something tells me if the US or European manufacturers found out they would stop delivering parts to the Chinese. They aren't going to want their national governments fining them for ignoring the embargo.
Pat

How much value do you think P&W, IAE, and GE/Snecma have in value in engine sales to China for all those A-320s, 777s, and 737s? You honestly think they would stop delivering engines because something that is totally out of their control gets sold to the Iranians?
 
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reffado
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting itrade (Reply 14):
How much value

My point exactly. In the international market these days, not dealing with China basically means losing money. A lot of it.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:02 pm

Think we can say COMAC will be building an A319 knock off pretty soon (The C919 !)
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting itrade (Reply 14):
You honestly think they would stop delivering engines because something that is totally out of their control gets sold to the Iranians?

I'm not saying they would completely cut off everything. But perhaps to the manufacturers or if they get whim that the technology will be on Iranian sold jets. The US government probably wouldn't accept a "Well we didn't know!"
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
RussianJet
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
Something tells me if the US or European manufacturers found out they would stop delivering parts to the Chinese. They aren't going to want their national governments fining them for ignoring the embargo.
Pat
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
The US wouldn't sell the parts needed for those planes to China.

Sure, but I'm sure a way will be found anyway.

Quoting Reffado (Reply 11):
A very good point. This, combined with the fact that the US and the international community depend too much on China to actually punish them, makes them a quite good choice.

  

Also, with all these lovely western parts to reverse-engineer, I'm sure it's only a matter of time until China doesn't need them anyway.
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dtw2hyd
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Well, Iranian president tweeted Jews wishing Happy New Year. Who knows, both A & B may be singing kumbaya with Iran soon. There are reports A & B can keep their production lines busy only for next seven years.
 
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 17):
I'm not saying they would completely cut off everything. But perhaps to the manufacturers or if they get whim that the technology will be on Iranian sold jets. The US government probably wouldn't accept a "Well we didn't know!"
Pat

I think this question was raised in another thread but I don't think the ANetters are aware of how the sanctions work. I too was naïve until I did the research. The US Government would most certainly go after them.

You cannot even book a flight to IKA, THR using Kayak, Orbitz or Expedia! The mere act of holding and Iranian Rial is technically a sanction violation. You can't wire money because all of their Banks were kicked out of SWIFT.

The Russians, Brazilians (Embraer) and Chinese don't produce a plane that doesn't have western components. Even if they did, technically you would either have to get a license from the US Treasury or actually barter with Iran to remain compliant with Treasury. Otherwise, the individuals involved could be brought up on charges or the company could be sanctioned from US commerce.

They have had some success leasing aircraft from Eastern Europe. All of the planes they have gotten in the past 5 years through various sources were in fact Airbus and I doubt we'll see Boeing's anytime in many years.

Getting parts is almost as problematic.

There is a need for all Asian plane as a seller of last resort for Iran, Cuba, Venezuela etc.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...sanctions/Programs/Pages/iran.aspx
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/gl...-iran-banks-network-153533841.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_sanctions
 
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:50 am

Quoting itrade (Reply 5):
Buy 'em from China. The PRC govt couldn't give a flip about the U.S. embargo...

They may be desperate for aircraft but they still have standards . Don't nobody want no junk 717 ripoff!
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mham001
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:19 am

Quoting itrade (Reply 14):
How much value do you think P&W, IAE, and GE/Snecma have in value in engine sales to China for all those A-320s, 777s, and 737s? You honestly think they would stop delivering engines because something that is totally out of their control gets sold to the Iranians?

From what I read here, China is equally dependent on them. If not P&W, IAE and GE?Snemca, then whom? Russian engines? On the flip side, these companies simply will not and cannot ignore the sanctions, nor would China flagrantly risk a trade war over Iran. At some point, sanctions will be lifted.
 
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:37 am

I think that there might be another reason: They simply know their existing fleet, technical wise.
They have sources for the spare parts, they have the very well trained maintenance staff and the experience with their vintage aircraft. They seem to feel comfortable with it.

They made not too good experiences with Russian / Ukrainian aircraft types. Another possible reason for not buying russian built aircraft. On the other hand, they have a license for the AN-140.
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting chieft (Reply 23):
I think that there might be another reason: They simply know their existing fleet, technical wise.
They have sources for the spare parts, they have the very well trained maintenance staff and the experience with their vintage aircraft. They seem to feel comfortable with it.

Bingo! That has to be the reason. And they have been getting a few A320s lately, so that's another plane they have developed expertise in.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 7):
Russia is not allowed to export these planes to Iran or does that mean the problem is that they still can't get the spares? Because if the latter is what you are suggesting, it would seem to me that it is still better than using an aircraft where 100% of the spare parts you need are from the E.U. or the U.S..

If they can get embargoed western spare parts for their 747SPs, 747-200s, A300s and now A320s, they sure can get them for the newer Russian jets.

[Edited 2013-09-06 04:55:20]
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SKAirbus
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:30 pm

Hopefully this won't be an issue for too much longer. The new Iranian president has vowed to stop Iran's isolation, and appears to be far more pragmatic than his tough-rethoriced predecessor.

So maybe we will finally see much need fleet regeneration in Iran.
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:41 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?

China has extensive economic ties to the United States - and a selective US embargo could put the Chinese economy in serious trouble very quickly.

Causing major problems for the Chinese government.

It would not have to be a big blanket embargo. The US government has many small item choices which they could impose. The US could send all Chinese pilot trainees home, they could stop allowing the import of a critical component which would bring the aircraft production to a halt, the US could impose a penalty on a Chinese export which would put tens of thousands of Chinese out of work in a few days, etc.

China, or rathe the leadership of China, may not care - but they are very careful to ensure that they do not technically break the embargo with Iran for items which are manufactured in China with US component parts.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:41 pm

Quoting LZ129 (Thread starter):
why don't they just buy Russian aircraft instead?

beside embargo problems, I'd say for the same reasons Russian airlines don't buy Russian aircraft.
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DexSwart
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:52 pm

What's to stop Iran from making its own aircraft?

They have some spectacular mechanics and engineers.

It' debate very much like the COMAC, kind of ripped off, but it'do still be availible.
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AirbusA6
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:54 pm

Quoting itrade (Reply 5):
Buy 'em from China. The PRC govt couldn't give a flip about the U.S. embargo...

If the Chinese actually had something in production, then Iran perhaps might be more interested!

I still suspect that if China or Russia had something to sell, and decided to ignore the sanctions, then in reality the US would find it hard to enforce anything, as the countries of the world are so closely linked these days. China has massive reserves of US Dollars, and I suspect that both China and Russia have natural resources that the US depends on...
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PanHAM
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 28):
They have some spectacular mechanics and engineers.

They would have to take them from the nucelar projects whch in turn would lift the reasons for the embargo. Life can be so easy with rational thinking......
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dtw2hyd
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:10 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 24):
If they can get embargoed western spare parts for their 747SPs, 747-200s, A300s and now A320s, they sure can get them for the newer Russian jets.

I think civilian aircraft parts sale for older models is allowed to certain extent. I may be wrong on this one. Even otherwise, with worldwide shell companies and few snake oil salesmen in US should provide enough parts to keep these planes flying.
 
bigjku
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?

You base your opinion on what exactly? China cares very deeply what the US thinks and in the grand scheme of things Iran getting passenger airliners is small potatoes. You don't risk a potential economic disaster (likely for both the US and China) to sell a handful of airliners to Iran.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:14 pm

As far as I know the sanctions on Iran regarding aircraft and parts are US sanctions, not UN or EU ones. So what prevents the selling of aircraft and parts is only US content. Not that it makes much of a difference since most airplanes have US parts.

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 28):
What's to stop Iran from making its own aircraft?

They have some spectacular mechanics and engineers.

It' debate very much like the COMAC, kind of ripped off, but it'do still be availible.

Well COMAC is failing miserably with pretty much unlimited funds, personnel, and foreign input. Iran doesn't have that. I mean, they don't even design cars, until new recent sanctions French manufacturers PSA and Renault had plants there, along other foreign ones. I think they're continuing to make the same 80's or 90's design.

Considering that what their military industry is producing (drone, stealth fighter etc.) look like they're out of comics books, I wouldn't want to step foot in an Iranian plane !
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airbazar
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?

China does very much give a crap, hence why they haven't done it. The Chinese economy is as much dependent on Europe and the US, as the US and Europe's are dependent on the Chinese. There's no room for 7th grade chest thumping contests of who's better than who here.

I don't believe the sourcing of parts is an issue at all. They have had no problem sourcing parts for their current fleet of Western built planes. I think the biggest issues are financing as well as training and OEM support.
 
hohd
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:52 pm

Russia also could care less about US embargo. I think it is Iran hesitating to buy from Russia. As for China, they buy oil in large quantities from Iran and have not reduced it by one bit, sanctions or no sanctions. Neither China nor Russia could care about US right now.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting hohd (Reply 35):
Russia also could care less about US embargo.

Ah, so you consider in fact that Russia greatly cares about the embargo then? How odd.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 32):
You base your opinion on what exactly? China cares very deeply what the US thinks and in the grand scheme of things Iran getting passenger airliners is small potatoes

Admittedly not on a lot more than casual observation; was really only throwing it in to play devil's advocate and obtain more information on why in fact they might actually do.  
Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 24):
they sure can get them for the newer Russian jets.

There's only one RussianJet here, and he needs no new parts.  
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Rdh3e
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?
Quoting Reffado (Reply 11):
A very good point. This, combined with the fact that the US and the international community depend too much on China to actually punish them, makes them a quite good choice.
Quoting itrade (Reply 14):
How much value do you think P&W, IAE, and GE/Snecma have in value in engine sales to China for all those A-320s, 777s, and 737s? You honestly think they would stop delivering engines because something that is totally out of their control gets sold to the Iranians?

Below:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
Something tells me if the US or European manufacturers found out they would stop delivering parts to the Chinese. They aren't going to want their national governments fining them for ignoring the embargo.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
The US wouldn't sell the parts needed for those planes to China.

US companies are responsible for the compliance of their products being used in accordance with the embargo. They are liable if their goods are packaged and sold to Iran. If they have even the suspicion that this will happen, then they will not sell the parts to COMAC.
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:54 pm

they have no money with which to buy them
 
LZ129
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:01 pm

A friend brought to my attention that the wikipedia article for the TU 204 actually lists 30 frames on order by Iran Air. What happened to that order?
 
TUGMASTER
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):
Hopefully this won't be an issue for too much longer. The new Iranian president has vowed to stop Iran's isolation, and appears to be far more pragmatic than his tough-rethoriced predecessor.

Just like the Muppet Blair & his cronies sided up to Ghadaffi..
 
wolflair
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?

The chinese may not care that much... but their suppliers do care. They are liable to comply with all export controls required by authorities (in addition to the US, the UK and other EU countries also have such controls).

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
Something tells me if the US or European manufacturers found out they would stop delivering parts to the Chinese. They aren't going to want their national governments fining them for ignoring the embargo.

And there are so many ways to find it out!

Have a look at www.treasury.gov and see the enforcement information... They are fining left, right and centre. And some fines are for some small Ordinary Joe's Inc who thought it was a good idea to sell some goods in Dubai in the knowledge (or having reason to believe) those goods would be sent across the strait of Hormuz minutes after they were unloaded in Dubai. And the US Treasury starts measuring fines based on the sell value of whatever product you exported. Some people have exported goods for 20k and got fined for 40k (plus public censure and the certainty that fines will be OTT if there is a second time). I also may add that, for Iran Exports, the US Treasury has powers to sanction whatever company or person is out there that knowingly tries to circumvent those sanctions.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 31):
I think civilian aircraft parts sale for older models is allowed to certain extent. I may be wrong on this one. Even otherwise, with worldwide shell companies and few snake oil salesmen in US should provide enough parts to keep these planes flying.

There are some licenses from OFAC for certain type of goods. At some point these included certain type of aircraft spares. There is a process for getting those licenses (either you need to explicitly request the license or you need to demonstrate your goods fit in a general license) but, in any case, I think nowadays aircraft spares would have a tough time in getting a license.
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:42 pm

Quoting itrade (Reply 5):

Buy 'em from China. The PRC govt couldn't give a flip about the U.S. embargo...
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
How would that change the fact that China doesn't give a crap?

All their Western Vendors care. They have made China sign contracts to respect the embargo if the jet has the Western designed parts.

The vendors would be very heavily fined and cease doing business or else go bankrupt.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
Something tells me if the US or European manufacturers found out they would stop delivering parts to the Chinese. They aren't going to want their national governments fining them for ignoring the embargo.

  

We've seen vendors react before.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
beside embargo problems, I'd say for the same reasons Russian airlines don't buy Russian aircraft.

  

  

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 38):

they have no money with which to buy them

That too. Iran is broke and cannot bribe anyone right now.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 37):
If they have even the suspicion that this will happen, then they will not sell the parts to COMAC.

   The US or Europe could put a blanket ban on shipping the parts to China which would end the Chinese aviation industry (what it is...).

To others: Why would China give their opponents all the ammo they could ever want in a trade war? There is nothing China could do as it would be them violating international law...

Lightsaber
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cschleic
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RE: Why Don't Iranian Airlines Order Russian Jets?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 38):
they have no money with which to buy them

This probably is a good reason, too. Their economy isn't great these days.

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