sankaps
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:08 am

Interested to know how the 787 has been performing lately. Not much news or discussion other than problems Norwegian seems to be having on a recurring basis with them, being discussed in another thread. Have delays and cancellations at other airlines come down to acceptable levels yet? Appreciate any info.
 
NAV20
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:44 am

According to this, so far, 84 aircraft delivered, 35,000 flights, 7M. passengers flown, 50M. miles covered............

http://flighttracker.newairplane.com/
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
phxa340
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:39 pm

According to ANA's post modification website, overall pretty well. In last week over 400 flights only 1 was cancelled and 1 was delayed. With that being said, they seem to be having quite of bit of issues with the electrical system.

https://secure.ana-g.com/anacom/cgi-bin/787/pdf/service_e.pdf
 
glbltrvlr
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:54 pm

I'm scheduled on the United 787 from LAX to Shanghai later this week. Looking forward to it.
 
hkcanadaexpat
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:06 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
In last week over 400 flights only 1 was cancelled and 1 was delayed.

ANA's stats should be taken with a grain of salt. They keep 5 spare 787s (2 domestic + 3 international) at all times. Helps keep the schedule look like its working like clockwork. That being said, its an expensive proposition for any airline to keep that many frames on standby at all times...

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 3):
United 787 from LAX to Shanghai later this week.

I hope you don't have a domestic connection in PVG or dinner plans that night in Shanghai. That flight is notoriously late. I reckon 3 out of 4 is late. Fingers crossed you get one of the lucky ones that's on time!
A
 
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:32 pm

Interesting notations from ANA:

Sept 5: flight canceled due to damage to fuselage. The notes state necessary maintenance was carried out and the plane returned to service. An instance of ramp rash of some sort? At any rate, the fix doesn't appear to be that remarkable.

Aug 25: Flight delayed 30 mins due to lightning strike "near the spot area" whatever that means. Certainly didn't take long to sort out that issue.

These two entries are notable because they are two of the challenges raised early on in developing the 787 - repairing the fuselage and effect of lightning strikes. It appears neither issue was remarkable in terms of getting the planes back in service. Nice!
 
glbltrvlr
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 4):
I hope you don't have a domestic connection in PVG or dinner plans that night in Shanghai. That flight is notoriously late. I reckon 3 out of 4 is late. Fingers crossed you get one of the lucky ones that's on time!

Shower, dinner and bed is all that is on the agenda, but I hope it isn't too late arriving. Now you have my curiosity up - will go look at the history.
 
swallow
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:37 pm

And right on cue, AAB chimes in...

there are “still issues and Boeing is aware of that. And they need to resolve these issues very quickly because Qatar Airways is getting very frustrated with them.

“There are so many teething problems... although it is not anything major that would require us to ground our aircraft, it is enough to give us grief on our dispatch reliability,” says Al Baker



http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ut-continuing-787-problems-390629/
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glbltrvlr
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 4):
That flight is notoriously late.

Took a quick look at FlightAware history and the past two weeks don't look too bad. Looks like they are adjusting the departure time for winds as those are a minimum 30 minutes later than the schedule, but the arrivals for all but two flights are pretty much bang on with two exceptions. The flight yesterday was 5 hours late leaving LAX and 4 hours late arriving and one a couple weeks ago was about an hour late.

Funny how our expectations have changed over the years. Wasn't that long ago that arriving on the scheduled day would have been good enough.
 
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par13del
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:00 pm

"The decision about which aircraft to order will be driven by “how the problems are fixed and how we are convinced that we have confidence that the problems will be fixed."
Ok so here we have an executive of an airline publicy stating that the decision to purchase a/c is not always about which a/c better suits their needs, accomodates their market and performance specifications compared to the alternatives.
Can we now dispense with the A.Net myth that politics and non-a/c performance issues have nothing to do with orders?
 
sankaps
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:06 pm

AAB's closing remark in the FlightGlobal article is pretty blunt: "“If we have to move away from the -8 due to the issues we have, then we may look at interim A330s.”

He has been fairly quiet and a strong defender of the 787 at least in public (he called the grounding stupid), but seems to be on the verge of losing patience...
 
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Stitch
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 10):
He has been fairly quiet and a strong defender of the 787 at least in public (he called the grounding stupid), but seems to be on the verge of losing patience...

He could also be on the verge of converting those 30 options to firm orders at the Dubai Air Show. He does seem to prefer negotiating via public statements.   

I mean how quickly can he get A330-200s?
 
SelseyBill
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
I mean how quickly can he get A330-200s?

I'd imagine he has JL on speed-dial on his phone, and I'd also imagine that JL would 'find' 30 A332's for QR pdq, and attached to a pretty nice price-tag too.

I'd also imagine the executives in Toulouse would love to have a headline or two reporting 787 orders being replaced by A330's.
 
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KarelXWB
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 12):
and attached to a pretty nice price-tag too.

Price tag should be the least concern for Mr Baker.
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7BOEING7
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 4):
ANA's stats should be taken with a grain of salt. They keep 5 spare 787s (2 domestic + 3 international) at all times.


I don't know about that. With the flight rate they were hitting in early September (up to 76 flights a day--normally around 70) I don't see how they could do that with a fleet of 20 airplanes with 5 of them parked. They must be doing 5-7 flights a day with their domestic fleet. Also in cases where the standby airplane was used, it would be hard to get the flight off within their 2 hour reporting requirement so we'd see more substitutions on their website.
 
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ADent
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:48 pm

United had a plane stuck in China for a week.

UA 787 NRT-ORD 09-07-13 (by airfinair Sep 9 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
flood
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 15):
United had a plane stuck in China for a week.

Another frame was apparently out of service in DEN for a week as well, seems they just conducted a post-mx flight:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N26906
 
PHX787
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 4):
ANA's stats should be taken with a grain of salt. They keep 5 spare 787s (2 domestic + 3 international) at all times. Helps keep the schedule look like its working like clockwork. That being said, its an expensive proposition for any airline to keep that many frames on standby at all times...

Well this is pretty typical of the Japanese process.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 5):
Aug 25: Flight delayed 30 mins due to lightning strike "near the spot area" whatever that means. Certainly didn't take long to sort out that issue.

Twitter confirms there was a huge thunderstorm nearby that day. A lightning bolt struck a commuter train earlier in that day too. So it was basically for severe weather.
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:44 am

N27901 didn't fly 30 Aug, 23 Aug thru 25 Aug.
N26902 didn't fly 09 Sep, 29 Aug thru 06 Sep (ferry flight on 07 Sep), 17 Aug thru 20 Aug
N27903 didn't fly 17 Sep, 08 Sep, 28 Aug, 19 Aug, 09 Aug thru 12 Aug
N20904 didn't fly 13 Aug.
N45905 didn't fly 21 Aug.
N26906 didn't flu 11 Sep thru 16 Sep, 28 Aug thru 29 Aug, 14 Aug
N29907 has flown every day since 10 Aug

Based on flight aware data.
 
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:26 am

Hi,

For Norwegian the 787 reliability has been nothing less than a disaster so far. One plane was grounded for technical reasons for days messing up the whole long haul schedule and causing badwill among passengers.
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BlueSky1976
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:20 am

Per passenger reports, LO 787s notoriously have issues with their in-flight entertainment system. The plane itself though seems to be doing fine, save for minor growing pains.
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photoshooter
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 18):

N27901 didn't fly 30 Aug, 23 Aug thru 25 Aug.
N26902 didn't fly 09 Sep, 29 Aug thru 06 Sep (ferry flight on 07 Sep), 17 Aug thru 20 Aug
N27903 didn't fly 17 Sep, 08 Sep, 28 Aug, 19 Aug, 09 Aug thru 12 Aug
N20904 didn't fly 13 Aug.
N45905 didn't fly 21 Aug.
N26906 didn't flu 11 Sep thru 16 Sep, 28 Aug thru 29 Aug, 14 Aug
N29907 has flown every day since 10 Aug

Based on flight aware data.

Wonder if they planned this or were forced to do so. Both would be very sad. I've logged the NAX 787 last summer and it was the best flight ever. Any news from the TUI group? Are they having problems? Can't wait to see JAF B787!

Photoshooter   
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:10 am

The worst thing about the DY incidents is that the plane worked perfectly fine on European operations. But it does seem to me that Boeing delivered the first aircraft without enough maturity in the test program. This has got to be one of the most disasterous new aircraft launches of all time?

The A380 had its problems, but never anything lasting this long. Even SQ said that during the first few months of A380 operations they had very good dispatch reliability.
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:43 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
"The decision about which aircraft to order will be driven by “how the problems are fixed and how we are convinced that we have confidence that the problems will be fixed."
Ok so here we have an executive of an airline publicy stating that the decision to purchase a/c is not always about which a/c better suits their needs, accomodates their market and performance specifications compared to the alternatives.
Can we now dispense with the A.Net myth that politics and non-a/c performance issues have nothing to do with orders?

I don't know that there's may on here who would question that politics can influence some orders, though the particular orders that get singled out seem to lack any rational basis. However, isn't there a bit of confirmation bias going on here? AAB is actually saying the reverse - surely dispatch reliability is an aircraft performance metric?
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:36 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 22):
The A380 had its problems, but never anything lasting this long. Even SQ said that during the first few months of A380 operations they had very good dispatch reliability.

Comparing the two aircraft is difficult in MHO. Between Oct of the launch year and the following year only 13 A380 were delivered. In Sept of its launch year and the following year 49 787's were handed over to customers. It just seems there are more problems because there are a lot more air frames out there.
 
Lofty
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:04 pm

I know Boeing have had to provide engineering teams to some carriers to overcome the issues which has included battery changes and Slow Fuelling. I also know one airline has had to change its towing procedure due to issues.
 
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:15 pm

Quoting Lofty (Reply 25):
I know Boeing have had to provide engineering teams to some carriers to overcome the issues which has included battery changes and Slow Fuelling. I also know one airline has had to change its towing procedure due to issues.

DY had Boeing personnel on its 787 flights when it was trialing the aircraft in Europe. They sat in the front row of the premium cabin and had all sorts of equipment set up.
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wingman
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:19 pm

SInce we reliably know that the 787 is the worst launch of any aircraft in history and a complete disaster for its customers, can someone produce the charts and stats for all aircraft launches since the dawn of the jet age? I'm kind of curious to see the rankings for the first two years of intro: dispatch rate, miles flown, pax flown, diversions, delays, deaths etc.
 
SonomaFlyer
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 27):

SInce we reliably know that the 787 is the worst launch of any aircraft in history and a complete disaster for its customers, can someone produce the charts and stats for all aircraft launches since the dawn of the jet age? I'm kind of curious to see the rankings for the first two years of intro: dispatch rate, miles flown, pax flown, diversions, delays, deaths etc.

That is a large overstatement. This is the first "all new" a/c launch in the age of the internetz and instant information. Every burp and hiccup is tweeted/cross posted and magnified x100.

The 747 and 777 each had tons of issues. IIRC the 320 and 330s had hull losses either during the testing phase or early introduction.

The 788 has had issues to be sure but there've been no injuries, no deaths and no hull losses. Boeing has learned a very expensive lesson in controlling the design phase of the a/c better and not being as reliable on out-sourcing. Penny wise and pound foolish etc.
 
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KarelXWB
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 28):
IIRC the 320 and 330s had hull losses either during the testing phase or early introduction.

Yes, although that comparison is irrelevant because it was pilot error.
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sankaps
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:40 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 28):
That is a large overstatement.

I think Wingman was being sarcastic.
 
tortugamon
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:55 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 30):
I think Wingman was being sarcastic.

Me too

tortugamon
 
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:01 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 19):
For Norwegian the 787 reliability has been nothing less than a disaster so far.

I think the lesson here is a good one for any carrier: don't buy a small number of frames of a brand-new type and immediately try to use them in a 16-hour-utilization long-haul schedule. Any new type would have had the same issues. That is the sort of schedule that is extremely prone to disruption even for long-established carriers with mature types... just ask KLM.
 
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KarelXWB
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 32):
I think the lesson here is a good one for any carrier: don't buy a small number of frames of a brand-new type and immediately try to use them in a 16-hour-utilization long-haul schedule.

Ding ding, jackpot.

I remember a few interviews with Norwegian's CEO (or a spokesman, don't remember it anymore) before they started long-haul. The man was a bit aggressive, he could not wait to start long-haul asap and he would crush the competitor (SAS), but now he's learning it the hard way.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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par13del
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:12 pm

Quoting BaconButty (Reply 23):
AAB is actually saying the reverse - surely dispatch reliability is an aircraft performance metric?

Yep, so the performance of the any future Boeing or Airbus product is??????
Essentially he is throwing all future OEM products under the bus regardless of their performance metircs, so a OEM metric.
 
SelseyBill
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 28):
no hull losses

Do we know the status of the ET B788 that caught fire @ LHR ? Is it being repaired or written-off ?
(Apologies if this has already been discussed/ reported elsewhere).
 
mham001
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 19):
For Norwegian the 787 reliability has been nothing less than a disaster so far.

The article I read quoted the Norwegian CEO? saying that they had had no real problems until these recent ones, so your statement is somewhat hyperbolic.
 
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EPA001
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 32):
I think the lesson here is a good one for any carrier: don't buy a small number of frames of a brand-new type and immediately try to use them in a 16-hour-utilization long-haul schedule. Any new type would have had the same issues.

Spot on!   

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 33):
I remember a few interviews with Norwegian's CEO (or a spokesman, don't remember it anymore) before they started long-haul. The man was a bit aggressive, he could not wait to start long-haul asap and he would crush the competitor (SAS), but now he's learning it the hard way.

I guess he is. But in the end we will see the B787 stabilise her performance, but the question for the customers is of course "when?"
 
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):
Price tag should be the least concern for Mr Baker.
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 22):
This has got to be one of the most disasterous new aircraft launches of all time?

I would not use the word "disaster" because (thankfully) there were no lives lost. Maybe I'd call it a "PR disaster" or "fiscal disaster" but even those sound too strong. Compare to DC-10 which had hulls and lives lost and orders cancelled directly due to engineering faults like the cargo door design.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 28):
That is a large overstatement. This is the first "all new" a/c launch in the age of the internetz and instant information. Every burp and hiccup is tweeted/cross posted and magnified x100.

I suppose, but the two battery "fires" after the delay due to the EE bay "fire" would have been magnified to the hilt in the pre internet days as well.
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SonomaFlyer
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 38):
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 28):
That is a large overstatement. This is the first "all new" a/c launch in the age of the internetz and instant information. Every burp and hiccup is tweeted/cross posted and magnified x100.

I suppose, but the two battery "fires" after the delay due to the EE bay "fire" would have been magnified to the hilt in the pre internet days as well.

Not necessarily. I'm not claiming these are good events but nothing like what's happened to Airbus or McDonnel-Douglas.

It might be that Boeing blew it with having the suppliers handle a lot of the design and quality control may not be great. It's been a royal pain to Boeing but I assume they've identified the major issues and we'll see the 789 with a much smoother introduction. For the 788, they will incrimentally improve the plane and might also swap out parts as the designs improve.
 
by738
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:51 pm

Not seen many recent delays on any of the recent TOM 787 flights
 
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KarelXWB
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:46 pm

Small issue, an UA 787 diverted on a DEN-NRT flight due to a flap indicator light.

http://twitter.com/FriendlySkies1K/status/380932224738029568
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wingman
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
Yes, although that comparison is irrelevant because it was pilot error.

I've always been proud, and quite amazed, that Airbus has never suffered a single crash due to anything wrong with its aircraft. As Karel says, all the early 320 losses, and the 320 demo/330 test flight losses (and all subsequent 320/330 crashes), were due to pilot error. In my immediate recollection I can't think of any aircraft manufacturer in history with such a "perfect record". They should put that in their sales brochures.

On the other hand, is it safe to say that since the fault in Airbus crashes always lies with the pilot that Airbus flight training might have room for improvement?
 
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 42):
On the other hand, is it safe to say that since the fault in Airbus crashes always lies with the pilot that Airbus flight training might have room for improvement?

There is always room for improvement but it is usually up to the airline to decide how far they go.
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StTim
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:12 pm

No frame maker will be too loud about safety and crashes - even lack of them. Such words could very easilly come back to haunt them if there was a manufacturing fault causing loss of life.

I never feel worried getting on a plane in a country with a high safety ethos. Some places say some African or ex - soviet countries may not engender such a feeling of inherent safety - merited or not.
 
sankaps
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:34 pm

Again, I think Wingman was being sarcastic.

He does raise an interesting point though: Are there any Airbus crashes where the ultimate cause was not pilot error (as in the result of some command input of lack thereof)? A crash that was just the result of a structural or mechanical failure?

And it does suggests something less than perfect in the man-machine interface.
 
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 45):
He does raise an interesting point though: Are there any Airbus crashes where the ultimate cause was not pilot error (as in the result of some command input of lack thereof)? A crash that was just the result of a structural or mechanical failure?

Yes, an American Airlines A300 once lost a rudder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587

[Edited 2013-09-20 08:39:15]
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 46):
Yes, an American Airlines A310 once lost a rudder.

That was an A300-600, but even that was blamed on excessive rudder movements commanded by the pilots. At AA pilot training had to change as a result. I do agree that this appears to come closest to something other than "pilot error".
 
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EPA001
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 47):
I do agree that this appears to come closest to something other than "pilot error".

It does, but it was more like an operational error by the whole of AA when they were flying with the A300.
 
BlueSky1976
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How Has The 787 Been Performing Lately? (Part 1)

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:57 pm

Not a good week at LO: two of their 787s are grounded due to faulty fuel filters, most likely it is a manufacturing defect. EuroAtlantic 777 and 767 will fill in while two Dreamliners are being repaired.

[Edited 2013-09-20 09:00:37]
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