nickh
Topic Author
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Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:13 am

Do civilian airlines carry emergency food and other rations on intercontinental flights, in case a flight is diverted due to weather, or other reasons, and is unable to reach it's destination in it's scheduled time?

Do airlines have arrangements with airports along their flight routes to accommodate their passengers if the flight is delayed for several hours or more, and the passengers are not able to disembark from the aircraft?

Are airlines required to carry a small supply of MRE's or other such sort of meals just in case of emergencies?

Just curious, thanks.

-Nick
"We all have wings, but some of us don't know why..."
 
sk909
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:26 am

No. No. And no.

Commercial intercontinental airlines don't plan on emergencies, so they don't stock for them. But they do care a little more than they need. It would be a nightmare to run out of beer or water on a regular flight. So it is no to your question, but they would have a little extra in case of an emergency.

Airlines don't have any arrangements with airports along the routes. Unless they serve them.

No MRE. Just plan airplane food. Which is worse I don't know.
Life's for Living!
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:25 am

Quoting sk909 (Reply 1):
Commercial intercontinental airlines don't plan on emergencies, so they don't stock for them.

Not exactly.

For ETOPS operations, the airlines must show that "suitable" diversion airports can accommodate an airplane's passengers in case an unscheduled landing is needed. This would include adequate shelter and supplies in adverse weather and a Passenger Recovery Plan. These are particularly important for Polar ETOPS. See the alternate (ie diversion) airport requirements of FAA AC 120-42B.

And of course the life rafts include emergency rations and water.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
sk909
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:49 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 2):

Yes true. But read the question at hand. The question is do they stock extra food and beverages. No. Do they stock enough for a delay, yes in most cases.
The ETOPS is an administrative issue of whether a diversion airport can handle an emergency (shelter, food, etc).
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AR385
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:09 am

Well. Once, in the 80s, I flew AR385, yes, that´s my username too, MEX-EZE on a 742. The cabin crew were "on strike" or some such and did not provide ANY service whatsoever . Only the children were fed and given drinks. That´s an 8:30 hr flight.
 
vvbkumar
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:40 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 2):

For a polar route like LAX/SFO-DXB what would be the potential diversion airports, the nearest i can guess is in Finland or Alaska (which can handle a 777) .
 
frunzaverde
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:00 am

Quoting vvbkumar (Reply 5):
For a polar route like LAX/SFO-DXB what would be the potential diversion airports, the nearest i can guess is in Finland or Alaska (which can handle a 777) .

Based on FlightAware and Flightradar 24, EK225/6 rarely goes that far west, usually entering Russian airspace approximately over Novaya Zemlya, then flying on a South-South-West direction (although it occasionally does make landfall as far west as Kirkenes in Norway).

Not so many alternates over Northern Russia, and Finland is quite far away. I'm guessing Murmansk could be an option in a pinch, even though its runway is only 2500m long (otherwise it's LED or one of the airports in MOW). If entering Russia further East, Norlisk could be a suitable alternate, and conversely, if entering too far West, Ivalo in Finland (again, only 2.5 km long runway). Otherwise, that's about it.

[Edited 2013-09-20 01:02:08]
 
dc10co
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:50 pm

Any airline that operates in the US is required to provide passengers with food if a tarmac delay extends beyond a certain time. I think it's two hours. Usually it's just biscoff cookies or a granola bar, but they are stocked onboard.
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roseflyer
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:04 pm

Quoting sk909 (Reply 1):
No MRE. Just plan airplane food. Which is worse I don't know.

That’s not always true.

Quoting sk909 (Reply 3):
Yes true. But read the question at hand. The question is do they stock extra food and beverages. No. Do they stock enough for a delay, yes in most cases.

I don’t know what airlines you are talking about, but at the airline that I worked at, yes we did stock emergency provisions for a diversion or significant ground delay. It wasn’t a significant amount of food, but it was stocked. There was a small snack pack for every passenger and crew member on board (first class got the same as economy  Smile ) The purpose was for a long tarmac delay or in case of a diversion. If I remember correctly it was a cup of water, some crackers, and other processed food for a long shelf life. I wouldn’t consider it significant, but it was enough of a snack so that people would not starve. It was stored on board and only used if there was a diversion or significant ground delay. It was not the normal supply.

Quoting sk909 (Reply 1):
Commercial intercontinental airlines don't plan on emergencies, so they don't stock for them. But they do care a little more than they need. It would be a nightmare to run out of beer or water on a regular flight. So it is no to your question, but they would have a little extra in case of an emergency.

The emergency provisions were separate from normal provisions. On international flights, alcohol has to be secured on the ground, so in some cases, the normal beverage carts had to be locked and fastened in case of a diversion (true for India for example if I remember correctly).

Quoting sk909 (Reply 1):
Airlines don't have any arrangements with airports along the routes. Unless they serve them.

That is not necessarily true. It probably is for food, but definitely not true for "don't have any arrangements". I know that at the airline where I worked, they had arrangements with airports that were filed as diversion airports even when not served. For example, United doesn’t serve OAK or SJC. However if there is a weather diversion there, United has fueling and maintenance contracts established.

[Edited 2013-09-20 11:20:39]

[Edited 2013-09-20 11:22:11]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
prosa
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting frunzaverde (Reply 6):
If entering Russia further East, Norlisk could be a suitable alternate

Diverting to Norilsk could be awkward given that it's closed to all foreigners. I suppose the passengers might be restricted to the airport, rather than sent to hotels in town, even for a lengthy diversion.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
roseflyer
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 9):
Quoting frunzaverde (Reply 6):
If entering Russia further East, Norlisk could be a suitable alternate

Diverting to Norilsk could be awkward given that it's closed to all foreigners. I suppose the passengers might be restricted to the airport, rather than sent to hotels in town, even for a lengthy diversion.

I can't think of any worse diversions than the time American diverted to Shemya:

http://www.nycaviation.com/2010/07/a...er-due-to-fire-alarm/#.UjyZ8He3OGo
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting vvbkumar (Reply 5):
For a polar route like LAX/SFO-DXB what would be the potential diversion airports, the nearest i can guess is in Finland or Alaska (which can handle a 777) .

Use Great Circle Mapper for the route with 120 min ETOPS circles to give you an idea where the alternates would be:

This link lists several airports that would be available for the route:

http://www.airport-int.com/article/a...ive-airports-in-polar-regions.html

Longyearbyen is a favorite due to its location.

Operate your fictional airline as desired.

[Edited 2013-09-20 12:06:22]

[Edited 2013-09-20 12:09:39]
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:01 pm

YFB is also used for ETOPS over the pole.
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vvbkumar
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):

   Awesome, thanks.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:19 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 4):
Well. Once, in the 80s, I flew AR385, yes, that´s my username too, MEX-EZE on a 742. The cabin crew were "on strike" or some such and did not provide ANY service whatsoever . Only the children were fed and given drinks. That´s an 8:30 hr flight.

So then, routine service on an Iberia flight.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
AR385
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 14):
So then, routine service on an Iberia flight.

HAHA, that´s funny. Actually, AR during the 80s was awesome. I used to fly them often in F (P) in their 742s and their single SP and it was nothing like IB. They were more like AF or LH. I hope they can come back to that.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:26 pm

Quoting vvbkumar (Reply 5):
For a polar route like LAX/SFO-DXB what would be the potential diversion airports, the nearest i can guess is in Finland or Alaska (which can handle a 777) .

Map of polar routes 1, 2, 3 and 4 (mostly used for eastern North America to East Asia), with their respective alternate airports.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_16/polar_fig3.html

Also an interesting read...

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...agazine/aero_16/polar_story.html#2

Thenoflyzone
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mpdpilot
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:11 pm

For polar routes such as JFK-HKG or LAX-DXB there are a number of possible alternate locations. There the standard ones that we talk about a lot in Canada, Yellowknife being the one that comes to mind.

The other two big ones that come to mind for both of these routes are Thule Air Base in Greenland, and Svalbard Airport in Norway. Both are two of the most northern airports in the world if not the most northern. Both provide ETOPS protection for polar routes. The next airports are Yellowknife in Canada, and Barrow in Alaska. There are a number of airports in Russia that are options as well, once you get south some.

Also remember that even a 77W at max landing weight can land in less than 6000ft at these low elevation airports.

Fun Fact: Eareckson Air Station on Shemya in Alaska, was leased to Northwest Orient Airlines in the 60's as Northwest needed a fuel stop for their flights to Japan. They marketed it as they were the only airline of the time to operate their own airport. So, yes airlines have done things to insure that they have alternate airports.

Fun Fact 2: Boeing administered Midway Island Air Field for a while to provide ETOPS alternate as for aircraft with 180min ETOPS there is still a small section of the pacific that is covered by Midway.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
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skygirl1990
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:42 pm

Just my    but surely the aircraft would run out of fuel before food/water would become an issue?
 
mfc
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 2):
And of course the life rafts include emergency rations and water.

If I'm not mistaken there are no rafts on airplanes nowadays as the slides are used as rafts. I remember flying Iberia on a 742 in J and there was a compartment in the ceiling next to door 1L where the crew stocked the headsets, a FA told me there was where they used to keep the rafts.

I don't know if emergency rations fit inside the doors with the slides... Maybe someone here can explain that.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 14):
So then, routine service on an Iberia flight.

I don't know what are you talking about. Iberia's long-haul service is standard: one hot meal, midflight snack and pre-arrival snack/breakfast. In addition, you can take any drink from the galley whenever you want.

[Edited 2013-09-20 15:52:42]
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
roseflyer
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:52 pm

Quoting skygirl1990 (Reply 18):
Just my but surely the aircraft would run out of fuel before food/water would become an issue?

The emergency food supply is in case the airplane diverts and there is not the ability to deplane passengers. It is relatively common for an airplane to have a weather diversion where the airplane stays on the ground for a couple hours before flying to the original destination. In many cases regulations or airports don't allow passengers to deplane, especially on international flights.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
AA94
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting mfc (Reply 19):
I don't know what are you talking about. Iberia's long-haul service is standard: one hot meal, midflight snack and pre-arrival snack/breakfast. In addition, you can take any drink from the galley whenever you want.

I think N328KF was being facetious, but ...
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting mfc (Reply 19):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 2):
And of course the life rafts include emergency rations and water.

If I'm not mistaken there are no rafts on airplanes nowadays as the slides are used as rafts. I remember flying Iberia on a 742 in J and there was a compartment in the ceiling next to door 1L where the crew stocked the headsets, a FA told me there was where they used to keep the rafts.

I don't know if emergency rations fit inside the doors with the slides... Maybe someone here can explain that.

AC 120-47 covers provisions all over water operation rafts (including slide rafts) must carry. The AC says in part:

4. DISCUSSION.
The recommended equipment should meet applicable TSO. This equipment includes, but is not limited to, the following:
a. Life preserver for each occupant of the aircraft.

b. Rafts or slide/rafts with appropriate buoyancy and sufficient capacity for everyone on board the aircraft and which have a boarding station.

c. Rafts (and slide/rafts where appropriate) should be equipped with the following:

(1) Lines, including an inflation/mooring line with a snaphook, rescue or life line, and a heaving or trailing line.

(2) Sea anchors.

(3) Raft repair equipment such as repair clamps, rubber plugs, and leak stoppers.

(4) Inflation devices, including hand pumps and cylinders (that is, carbon dioxide bottles), for emergency inflation.

(5) Safety/inflation relief valves.

(6) Canopy and appropriate equipment to erect the canopy.

(7) Position lights.

(8) Hook type knife, sheathed and secured by a retaining line.

(9) Placards that give the location of raft equipment and are consistent with placard requirements.

(10) Propelling devices such as oars, or in smaller rafts, glove paddles.

(11) Water catchment devices, including bailing buckets, reincatchment equipment, cups, and sponges.

(12) Signaling devices including:

(i) At least one approved pyrotechnic signaling device.

(ii) one signaling mirror.

(iii) One spotlight or flashlight (including a spare bulb) having at least two "D" cell batteries or equivalent.

(iv) One police whistle.

(v) One dye marker.

(vi) Radio beacon with water activated battery.

(vii) Radar reflector.

(13) One magnetic compass.

(14) A 2-day supply of emergency food rations supplying at least 1,000 calories a day for each person.

(15) One saltwater desalting kit for each two persons the raft is rated to carry or two pints of water for each person the raft is rated to carry.

(16) One fishing kit.

(17) One book on survival, appropriate for any area.

(18) A survival kit, appropriately equipped. Some of the items which could be included in the survival kit are:

(i) Triangular cloths.

(ii) Bandages.

(iii) Eye ointments.

(iv) Water disinfection tablets.

(v) Sun protection balsam.

(vi) Heat retention foils.

(vii) Burning glass.

(viii) Seasickness tablets.

(ix) Ammonia inhalants.

(x) Packets with plaster.

Note that the list includes 1000 cal/day of emergency food rations per occupant for two days and two pints of water per occupant or a desalinization kit..
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
mfc
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:08 am

RE: Emergency Rations On Intercontinental Flights

Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 22):

Thanks for the info, it seems that the compartments in the doors where the slides are kept are like Mary Poppins' bag 
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past

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