wilco737
Topic Author
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:09 am

Part 1 available here:

Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 1 (by behramjee Sep 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Please continue your discussion here.

Thanks.

wilco737
  
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3794
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:39 am

I have read there were still minor issues with the engines that must be resolved. I take it the details are about the maintenance on the engines which LH-Technik would gladly do herself. Is this maybe a comparable situation as we have seen at AF-KLM for the maintenance on the Rolls-Rocye engines which come automatically when ordering the A350? That delayed the firming up of that order for quite a while.

And in this case at LH the GE9 and the Trent-XWB are playing a big role. Has anybody heard something about the details of this part of the order?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23081
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:24 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
And in this case at LH the GE9 and the Trent-XWB are playing a big role. Has anybody heard something about the details of this part of the order?

Both GE and RR have issued press releases noting LH have selected their respective engines:

GE - http://www.geaviation.com/press/ge90/ge90_20130919.html
RR - http://www.rolls-royce.com/news/pres.../2013/19092013_power_lufthansa.jsp

The RR release notes that the engines will come with TotalCare.

Lufthansa Technik is a line maintenance service provider for the GE90 family of engines.
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3794
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Both GE and RR have issued press releases noting LH have selected their respective engines:

Thanks for the (as always) informative reply Stitch.   I must have missed these links.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19948
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:58 am

Yes TotalCare, meaning RR will do the engine management and maintenance and other stuff.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
Is this maybe a comparable situation as we have seen at AF-KLM for the maintenance on the Rolls-Rocye engines which come automatically when ordering the A350? That delayed the firming up of that order for quite a while.

One of Air France strategies to become profitable again is to "seek further 3rd party work especially in area of engine overhauls for AF Industries". Therefore engine maintenance was a very important package of the deal. This is different for Lufthansa.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
queb
Posts: 843
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:13 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 4):
Yes TotalCare, meaning RR will do the engine management and maintenance and other stuff.

Yes and no, I think Lufthansa Technik is a Totalcare approved provider.
 
StTim
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:19 am

In the press release

"Rolls-Royce is also a joint-venture partner with Lufthansa Technik AG in the N3 Engine Overhaul Services maintenance business."
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19948
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:19 am

Good point. In that case, engine discussions should be pretty straightforward.

BTW if people want high-res screenshots of the new jets: go to http://mediabase.lufthansa.com/fra_ci_presse/EntryAction.do select "New long haul fleet" in the menu and go to page two.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
Luxair
Posts: 836
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 12:17 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:27 pm

Congrats to Lufti, still my favourite airline out there! Nice to see that they keep splitting their orders between A & B! Btw, I hope/wish that they keep their 748 as long as possible! Can't wait to book a flight on the mighty Queen!
 
kaitak
Posts: 8947
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:46 pm

Before this order, B777 sales stood at 1,467; this order now pushed them over the 1,500 mark!

Only 27 to go to equal the 747 as the most successful widebody ever.
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3794
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:32 pm

Quoting Luxair (Reply 8):
I hope/wish that they keep their 748 as long as possible! Can't wait to book a flight on the mighty Queen!

LH has a strong tradition to fly long with their birds which they maintain in an excellent, exemplary way. The B748 will easily fly until 2030 to 2035 at LH. And as a fan of 4-hopers that pleases me.  . Even though the trend towards large twins is just confirmed by LH with this important order.
 
CX747
Posts: 5576
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:32 pm

It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe" and 777s will be operating on Lufthansa's behalf. May this be the start of a wonderful trend. One has to wonder what effect this will have on the 747-8Is ability to garner future orders with Lufthansa.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
StTim
Posts: 1594
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:40 pm

I suspect the 779 purchase by LH means less likelihood of additional 748 sales.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19948
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 14):
It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe" and 777s will be operating on Lufthansa's behalf.

There was nothing to crack IMO, Lufthansa and Boeing are partners since a very long time. Lufthansa was even the launch customer of the 747-8i.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
EPA001
Posts: 3794
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 14):
Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe"

Boeing has always sold many aircraft in Europe, but feels the competition form Airbus of course. LH as a launch customer of the B748i and now the B777-9, while still operating a very large B744 fleet, has nothing to do with "Fortress Europe". Also AF, launch customer of the B77W and operating a large fleet of them, is for sure no "Fortress Europe". Let alone KLM or BA.
 
earlynff
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:53 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:48 pm

from part one #162:

quoting Boeing747_600:


"They'll have to make a whole mess of 744 pilots go through conversion training for the 779s or else hire expat pilots."


I guess you have not the slightest idea about that business. Lufthansa is engaged in that since long before your existance!
It will be business as usual, a non-issue.

Btw, Lufthansa is breeding the majority of their pilots in a cadet scheme "ab initio", very successfully. New pilots jump into r/h seats of airliners, with around 250-300 hours, since more than half a century. They know that whole business well enough!
 
col
Posts: 1692
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:11 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 14):
It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe" and 777s will be operating on Lufthansa's behalf. May this be the start of a wonderful trend. One has to wonder what effect this will have on the 747-8Is ability to garner future orders with Lufthansa.

Yes, it is truly amazing that Boeing have placed an airliner in Europe and the first customer is LH, bad choice of words I think!!

I think the total number of 747-8i at LH will be 19. Boeing have just done too good a job of 777 derivatives.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 14):
One has to wonder what effect this will have on the 747-8Is ability to garner future orders with Lufthansa.

Absolutely, positively zero.

Rgds
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:57 pm

I don't know if anyone mentioned it before, but FlightGlobal has detailed article regarding Lufthansa's purchase deal.

Key points:

- 777-9X is to replace all 747-400s
- A350-900 to replace all A340-300s
- A340-600 to remain in Lufthansa fleet until retirement, as they will be 100% owned by the time delivery of new twins is completed,
- Lufthansa Technik will set up maintenance base for GE9X as a part of joint venture with GE
- both 777s and A350s will have two- and three-class cabin configuration.

http://www.flightglobal.com/fg-club/in-focus/lufthansa-widebody-order/
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19948
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
Key points:

Thanks. So this means they have yet to choose a replacement for the A340-600. This might explain the conversion rights for the larger A350-1000 and the smaller 777-8. Then our A346 replacement theory was not entirely correct.

[Edited 2013-09-20 11:21:12]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 34):
- 777-9X is to replace all 747-400s

LH has 9 744s that will be at least 25 years old in 2017. D-ABVA was retired after 23 years and it still had over 100k flight hours. I personally have a hard time seeing these aircraft lasting until 777-9x EIS especially as LH has 19 748s and A380s entering service in the next couple of years to replace them. Is LH going to start flying 747s differently than they have in the past? Fly them part time?

There are only 13 747s that I can see being replaced by 777-9x and even then they will be at least 23 years old.

I believe LH's oldest A346 is only 10 years old. They do have a lot of life in them. On a side note; why did Lufthansa receive new A346 in 2009! Wow. Even if purchase price is 25% of the cost of ownership, that has to be viewed as a mistake.

Doesn't it make you wonder why LH ordered 34 777-9x then?

I thought LH had only 30 747s a couple years ago and now they have 22, are my numbers incorrect? How have they taken possession of 19 A380s and 748s and only retired 8 747s? Thanks.

tortugamon
 
LH707330
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 37):
I believe LH's oldest A346 is only 10 years old. They do have a lot of life in them. On a side note; why did Lufthansa receive new A346 in 2009! Wow. Even if purchase price is 25% of the cost of ownership, that has to be viewed as a mistake.

They got those as a top-up. When they ran the numbers, they decided that the new 2006+ HGW frames would be better for their fleet than a small sub-fleet of 77Ws.
 
douglasyxz
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:33 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:26 pm

If the 779s are meant to replace the 744, what are the 748s and 388s being bought for? By the time of 779 EIS, only 13 744 will be left anymore.
The 779 is meant to replace the B744 AND A346. You just have to look up the slides of the press conference. On slide 6 you can see that MUC-BKK is supposed to change from 346 to 779 after 2020.
 
User avatar
BobMUC
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:59 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:42 pm

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 40):
The 779 is meant to replace the B744 AND A346. You just have to look up the slides of the press conference. On slide 6 you can see that MUC-BKK is supposed to change from 346 to 779 after 2020.

Yes, BUT see the flightglobal articel in reply 34 in addition and my following comment from thread #1:

A346 will be replaced by 779 and A359 -> or the A346 will stay longer in the fleet if the growth is more like 5%, but in the long term, YES. (Comment from Mr. Spohr).

I'm sure, that LH knows how and where to use the A346 in the right way to make money with them. High cycles, many flight hours, good maintenance, etc., etc.
They are not in a rush to get rid off them.
LH statement was clear: prio 1 is the replacement of A343 and B744!

Sorry, I have to defend my favorite aircraft a little bit.  
I hope I will see them flying out of MUC for a couple more years (> 10 years).
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 39):
They got those as a top-up. When they ran the numbers, they decided that the new 2006+ HGW frames would be better for their fleet than a small sub-fleet of 77Ws.

Must have got a great deal. If you think about it the fuel burn higher on the A346, for sure, but there is significant savings in maintenance. LH must have took into account their variable cost of just having to service some extra frames themselves which is certainly cheaper than sending out for the work. I trust that it makes sense because they seem like smart guys but it sure is odd.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 36):
So this means they have yet to choose a replacement for the A340-600.
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 37):
Doesn't it make you wonder why LH ordered 34 777-9x then?
Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 40):
The 779 is meant to replace the B744 AND A346.

OK, I just read through the article again. Here is a contradictory quote

>" the larger -600s are to continue operating “for a long time” as the aircraft will have been paid for but will not have reached retirement age when the new types arrive, says Spohr."
>"The 59 firm orders are to replace 54 ageing A340s and 747s, says Spohr.".

To me that means 24 A343s, 24 A346s, and 6 744s (Vintage 1999 and younger). Spohr must have meant that the 779 would replace the 6-747s first and then start working on replacing A346s afterward. Assuming 4 in 2020 and 6 2021-2025 the oldest A346s would be 19 years old by the time that happens which is certainly a very respectable amount of time and it gives them some wiggle room if Boeing is late (not a bad idea). They could even start with the youngest ones and send them to LX or another partner for ~8 years if necessary.

It does not appear to be a clear message though. I don't see how they can use 34 779s if they aren't replacing A346s.

tortugamon
 
HBGDS
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:09 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:24 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe"

I think they cracked it long ago when AF acquired 777s and became one of the largest operators for a while. An AF test pilot told me back in the late 90s that he saw no future for quads and that the 777 was clearly "da best" in its category.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23081
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:19 am

Common sense says that some of the 34 777-9s will be used to replace some of the 24 A340-600s EVENTUALLY.

LH's priority before 2025 is to retire their entire 747-400 and A340-300 fleet as those are the two least fuel-efficient models in their fleet (the 747-400 consumes 4.2 liters per 100 passenger kilometers and the A340-300 is at least that, if not higher). But the A340-600 is #3 on that list (4.1 liters consumed per 100 passenger kilometers) so once the A340-300 and 747-400 are gone, LH will want to start phasing out the A340-600s.



LH has 24 A340-300s so the 25 A350-900s are a 1:1 replacement for that fleet.


LH has 22 747-400s in service with 7 in storage. They also have 10 A340-600LGWs and 14 A340-600HGWs. That is a total of 53 frames that need to be replaced.

LH is still to take delivery of 10 747-8s and 7 A380-800s. Subtract 17 from 53 and you get 36. LH will convert 2 of their A380-800 options to orders.

That gets you to 34 frames needing to be replaced.

LH ordered 34 777-9s.

  
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8005
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:20 am

By the way, I still stand by my view that we may see a good number of long-distance flights using the A350XWB-900 out of Berlin Brandenberg. Remember, Berlin is now the capitol of Germany, and people going to the capitol on governmental business might not want to have to change planes at FRA or MUC flying LH on intercontinental flights. FRA and MUC will continue to support larger airliners, since Frankfurt is the financial center of Germany and Munich is a major financial and manufacturing center.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
LH has 22 747-400s in service with 7 in storage.

I thought they only had 22 747s. I even checked the World Airline Census for 2012 and it doesn't reflect the 29 either. The extra seven push everything back at least a year and it makes more sense.

However, when LH says they will receive all of their aircraft by 2025 and when a decent amount of A346s were received in late 2000's the eventually to which you refer 'may' still come before these frames are 20 years old unless they wish to grow.

tortugamon
 
earlynff
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:53 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 27):
Remember, Berlin is now the capitol of Germany, and people going to the capitol on governmental business might not want to have to change planes at FRA or MUC

For that purpose A318LR would suffice...
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23081
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:13 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 28):
thought they only had 22 747s. I even checked the World Airline Census for 2012 and it doesn't reflect the 29 either. The extra seven push everything back at least a year and it makes more sense.

airfleets.net says they have 22 in service and 7 in storage. They also sent one to Condor and one to Kalitta.



Quoting tortugamon (Reply 28):
However, when LH says they will receive all of their aircraft by 2025 and when a decent amount of A346s were received in late 2000's the eventually to which you refer 'may' still come before these frames are 20 years old unless they wish to grow.

I expect the 10 A340-600LGWs to go first as they're the oldest. Then they would start on the newer (2006-onwards) A340-600HGWs.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13367
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:56 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe"

"Fortress Europe"?    You do realise Boeing has sold over 5,000 planes to "Fortress Europe"?

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
One has to wonder what effect this will have on the 747-8Is ability to garner future orders with Lufthansa.

There are two chances for more 748i sales at LH - slim and none. Slim just rode out of town.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
Scipio
Posts: 851
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:29 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
LH has 24 A340-300s so the 25 A350-900s are a 1:1 replacement for that fleet.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
LH ordered 34 777-9s.

What about the 1-5% per annum expansion that Lufthansa is aiming for?
This means that, by 2025, they want to have between 13 (1% per annum) and 80 percent (5% per annum) more seats than now.
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:32 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 31):

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
One has to wonder what effect this will have on the 747-8Is ability to garner future orders with Lufthansa.

There are two chances for more 748i sales at LH - slim and none. Slim just rode out of town.

There was a rumour going around some time ago that Lufthansa may not take all 19 747-8is and may convert last 4 frames to 777-9X instead. It was never confirmed nor denied officially, so I'd watch this space very closely.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23081
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
What about the 1-5% per annum expansion that Lufthansa is aiming for?

I would imagine that is what the options and purchase rights are for.  
 
chiad
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:36 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe"

"Every" major and minor European Airlines has been using Boeing Aircrafts since before Airbus was born.
It's most likely to continue except that Airbus' shares of the European market might grow a little more.

If there ever was a fortress Europe widebody wise it belonged to Boeing, but it was "cracked" naturally because Europe got a manufacture that started to produce widebodies.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 3422
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:34 am

Especially LH was never a fortress for Boeing. LH was pushing for the 737, they ordered the 748i, the 707, 747. 727. 737, 757/767, 777 (for Swiss and LH Cargo).
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:03 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe"

Interesting statement in many regards, seeing as LH is the only significant 747-8i customer already, AF has one of the biggest 777 fleets in the world, BA was a very loyal Boeing customer for many years (an airline that Airbus still had to crack when they had already sold tons of planes in the US), etc.

Quoting chiad (Reply 35):
If there ever was a fortress Europe widebody wise it belonged to Boeing, but it was "cracked" naturally because Europe got a manufacture that started to produce widebodies.

  
If there are two manufacturers making comparable products, you would naturally expect both manufacturers to have roughly the same presence in every geographical region. The two large exceptions to this rule that I can think of are Russia - mostly for political and cost reasons - and Japan.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Common sense says that some of the 34 777-9s will be used to replace some of the 24 A340-600s EVENTUALLY.

LH's priority before 2025 is to retire their entire 747-400 and A340-300 fleet as those are the two least fuel-efficient models in their fleet

  
In that context, it's also worth bearing in mind that the A350-900 will start arriving in 2016, so LH can start replacing the A340-300 in particular - with some 747-400 already getting replaced by 747-8i and A380 before the first 777X arrives around 2020.
42
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3552
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:22 am

I Wonder if any of these 359s are or can be converted to 'R' models?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:28 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
I Wonder if any of these 359s are or can be converted to 'R' models?

As LH even have flexibility to convert part of the A350-900 order to A350-1000, I'm sure they would have flexibility to change the particular variant of -900 as well, once such an additional subtype is officially offered.
42
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 11):
It is amazing to see that Boeing cracked "Fortress Europe" and 777s will be operating on Lufthansa's behalf. May this be the start of a wonderful trend.

What on earth are you talking about? You should do a little fact-checking.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 37):
Interesting statement in many regards, seeing as LH is the only significant 747-8i customer already, AF has one of the biggest 777 fleets in the world, BA was a very loyal Boeing customer for many years

  
AF, AZ, LH, BA, KL, LO all have recent Boeing wide-body fleets (748, 77x, 78x).
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
There are only 13 747s that I can see being replaced by 777-9x and even then they will be at least 23 years old.

The older 744s will go as 748 enter service. That meaqns by 2015/16 latest there will be 13 744s, the youngest ones, left in the fleet. these will be likely replaced 1 for 1 once the 779 enters service. Which other aircraft will be replaced thereafter by the 779 remains to be seen.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 27):
By the way, I still stand by my view that we may see a good number of long-distance flights using the A350XWB-900 out of Berlin Brandenberg

Not only me will bet against that. BBI will not play a big role in LH other than a feeder for MUC anmd FRA and direct serices which Germanwings run. BER-IAD will rather be operated by UA than LH.

Two things, LH has been a loyal Boeing customer since 1960 with the introduction of the first 707. To be precise, it was March 17, 1960. Many of us here can rest assured that they won't see the end of Boeing jetliners in the LH fleet in their life times.

The other point is flexibility which runs like a red line through the years and is paramount to the way the company is run. We have just witnessed a decision that will influence the companies fate for the next 3 decades at least. A purchase has been made now but how these planes will be used will depend on the ma market conditions when they join the fleet.

LH is often accused in the German press for having an "old" fleet with an average age of over 11 years. We know that this is rubbish. Older aircraft are fully owned and earned the money to pay for new aircraft on top of the depreciation., This also answers the question of which part of the fleet the 779 will replace once the 744s are retired.
powered by Eierlikör
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:05 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
What about the 1-5% per annum expansion that Lufthansa is aiming for?

Every time an A380 or a 747-8i replaces a 747-4 capacity goes up by as little as 10% (748i high premium layout) or as much as 60% (A380 vs high premium 744). Also the A359 should be able to seat at least 15% more capacity when those are swapped out as well. If it wasn't for their plan on introducing Economy plus and the rollout of the new J seat, I actually could see an increase of 1% being very conservative.

Plus, the options will assure them as much growth as they can handle. Its going to be a fun fleet to fly. Jealous.

tortugamon
 
RedChili
Posts: 1440
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:23 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:50 pm

I'm really baffled by the "death of the VLA" debate which was going on in the previous thread.

The term VLA has generally been used to describe airplanes the size of a 747 and bigger.

Based on the graphics provided in the LH PDF file, it appears that the 779 with LH will have more seats than the 744 has today. That would surely mean that the 779 will be a VLA. Which means:

Today, LH has the following number of VLAs:
388: 10
748: 9
744: 22
Total: 41

By 2025, LH will have:
388: 19
748: 19
779: 34
Total: 72

And that is assuming that no more options will be converted.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 43):
Based on the graphics provided in the LH PDF file, it appears that the 779 with LH will have more seats than the 744 has today.

The conventional definition of VLA basically was either the 747 or A388. You are quite right in concluding that for all practical purposes the 779 will be a VLA. There are a lot of people who consider that only 4 engined aircraft qualify as VLA's, ane the A346 didn't quite qualify. But I do not think there will ever be another new 4 engine aircraft, so if that is the case, the VLA as some people think of it is an endangered species. I think a better definition would be one with over 400 passengers, in which case it is alive and well and thriving.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 43):

I think many believe there will be less 747s and A380s in service 10 years from now than there were five years ago: BA (~57 747s), KE (~49), UA (~44), ANA (~24), JAL (~44 but over 100 at one point), CX (~30), and SQ (~59) are excellent examples of airlines that had large 747 fleets and will almost certainly have significantly less 747s and A380s in the future.

Use VLA or whatever name you like to define this group of very large airliners but the direction, at least to me, is pretty clear.

However, I would say that calling for their death is premature. Unless you are talking about the 748i  .

tortugamon
 
bigjku
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 43):
I'm really baffled by the "death of the VLA" debate which was going on in the previous thread.

The term VLA has generally been used to describe airplanes the size of a 747 and bigger.

Based on the graphics provided in the LH PDF file, it appears that the 779 with LH will have more seats than the 744 has today. That would surely mean that the 779 will be a VLA. Which means:

VLA in this context means Quad for the most part.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:44 pm

This is very ironic since LH launched the 747-8i...

Looks more and more like the death knell for the 747-8i unless CA and AI see a need for them.

CX has indicated the 77W is as big as they'll ever need for their restructured market...

Any other ray of hope for the 747-8i?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
astuteman
Posts: 6341
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 43):
I'm really baffled by the "death of the VLA" debate which was going on in the previous thread.

It was a bit odd, given that LH are still receiving "VLA"'s and will continue to do so for some years yet.

It seems clear to me that the 777-9X's are not replacing 747-8's and A380's, but 747-400's and a340-600's.
Which is an entirely sensible and appropriate market for the 777-9X

The 777-9X will fly alongside the 747-8's and A380's for some time yet.
Can we completely rule out LH ordering A380's in future (e.g A389's in the mid-to late 20's?) to fly alongside the 777-9X's?

rgds
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 19948
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Lufthansa Orders 34 B779s + 25 A359s Part 2

Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
I Wonder if any of these 359s are or can be converted to 'R' models?

I doubt it, the de-rated A359 will have the same MTOW and range as the 787-10.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 44):
I think a better definition would be one with over 400 passengers, in which case it is alive and well and thriving.

An 77W can seat 500 pax, does this make it a VLA too?

As for the 779, Boeing itself says it's not a VLA.

[Edited 2013-09-21 11:08:27]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aflyingkiwi, alski, Anansaudiajet, AR385, B737900ER, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], chornedsnorkack, DavidByrne, drew777, LeCoqFrancais, panair, Qatara340, qvb222, tonystan, VirginFlyer and 255 guests