iowaman
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Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:43 am

Due to length of the first thread, here is part two.

Part one: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare (by Mortyman Sep 23 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
vfw614
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:35 am

Quote:
Some subcontractors do it better than the firm subcontracting. Calling it Gold is just marketing. Clearly, Boeing has a serious learning curve however.

Funny how DY is getting flak for allegedly rushing into 787 ops but this is the closest thing to a mild criticism I have read in 200+ posts about Boeing's GOLD programme which apparently does not deliver. And in the business world it is usually frowned upon if one partner is getting paid for learning how to perform instead of actually performing...
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:53 am

Norwegian CEO Bjørn Kjos has issued an apology on Facebook re. the problems (in Norwegian). I have translated it:

"I want to apologise to all our passengers that have been affected by the unacceptable delays on our long haul routes recently. I understand how frustrating it must be to wait for hours for your plane to depart.

Last night Norwegian had a meeting with Boeing where the company gave a clear message that the situation is unacceptable. Boeing said that they will put together a dedicated team that will continuously follow Norwegian to ensure that any technical challenges that occur going forward are dealt with immediately. In addition, they will make sure that the necessary spare parts are available at all airports we fly to and from with the Dreamliner so that our passengers won't be hit by large delays".

So it seems that Boeing are taking this seriously... Hopefully this won't mean large delays going forward!
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Norlander
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:56 pm

There are several noteworthy things from the first thread and some things that are less so, some of our North American friends seem to think that NAS is a small tinpot airline, some posters on both sides tries to drag this into the ongoing A v B flame war, etc.

Norwegian, which is a large airline in the narrow body market segment, is new to long haul wide bodies.
DY is the third largest LCC in Europe - with 17.7 million passengers and operates 68 737-800, 10 737-300, but only 2 787-8 (out of a total order of 8). It has another 269 airframes on their order books, and is used to start up phases and growing pains. For a comparison it is roughly the size of AS - ~75% and growing fast.

DY has long been a loyal Boeing customer and only recently added their first Airbus to their order books (320NEO - none delivered so far), but they did lease two A340 while the 787-8 was coming into the fleet.

Norwegian has signed onto Boeing's Gold Care fleet services, so it's not the "usual" problem of local techs not knowing what to do - it is actually Boeing's problem both as a supplier of airframes and the provider of fleet services.

The bottom line: This looks bad for the Dreamliner (marketing must hate that name by now) and for Boeing's Gold Care fleet services. The only option is for Boeing to get their house in order or risk losing a loyal and large customer - their last order was valued at $21.5B!!

[Edited 2013-09-26 07:59:39]
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wingman
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:09 pm

This suggestion may be completely idiotic but at some point Boeing would have to consider free leases to carriers with the bad frames, and I'm sure they know which line numbers these frames are, and maybe just rebuild the ones now in service from top to bottom. That's easily 1-2 $B right there but the onslaught of bad news is getting worse by the day. Or at minimum Boeing should have a fleet of 767s/777s prepositioned across Europe, the US and Japan to cover flights that go tech. Still it seems that only option 1 solves the problem long-term.
 
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:21 pm

People sometimes refer to the FIAT car brand as Fix It Again Tony. Similarly, many car enthusiasts quip about how certain sports cars from certain manufacturers should be followed at all times by a repair truck and mechanic.

I am getting the sense that Boeing should provide a 777F to follow each and every 787 flight to make sure it flies on time without mechanical failure (or incident).

This all smells like a ticking time bomb to me. Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

Perhaps airlines in the USA can refer to their state's Lemon Law for dealing with Boeing?
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:30 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

Don't worry. Airbus will soon be along to save the day... Mobile, Alabama!
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oldeuropean
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Don't worry. Airbus will soon be along to save the day... Mobile, Alabama!

Yes, that reminds me on the shabby manufactured Mercedes M-class, build in Vance, Alabama!
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OM617
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 7):
Yes, that reminds me on the shabby manufactured Mercedes M-class, build in Vance, Alabama!

PLEASE don't remind me of those albatrosses! They weren't so pretty to look at, either. It took a few years, but they did get their act together.


Don't Airbus make 320s in China? How are they holding up compared to the Toulouse/Finkenwerder models?

Oops, drifting off the DY/787 issues. Their aircraft are newer build, theoretically should have all the updates/mods...

OM617
 
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par13del
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 4):
Or at minimum Boeing should have a fleet of 767s/777s prepositioned across Europe, the US and Japan to cover flights that go tech. Still it seems that only option 1 solves the problem long-term.

I would be shocked if it were not cheaper for Boeing to simply buy back the a/c paying compensation allowing the carriers to select an Airbus product - PC thrown away - than pre-position fleets of plane sand crews with all the necessary paper work to be able to operate freely into the regions / countries involved.
 
CplKlinger
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
This all smells like a ticking time bomb to me. Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

That's funny, considering most "foreign" cars are now made in the US. The Honda Accord, long a standard in reliability is made in my hometown of Greensburg, IN. Toyota has a few plants here and in Ohio.

I think folks just like to dump on Boeing here because it's the popular thing to do. Are there issues? Definitely, but not "ruining the face of American manufacturing" type issues. Get a grip on yourself.
 
RedChili
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:01 pm

Norwegian had an emergency meeting with Boeing executives yesterday, including Raymond Connor. Norwegian news media have been full of reports from that meeting. Boeing refused to talk to journalists afterwards, but DY has released some information:

DY claims that all spare parts are located in London, and that's the reason why it takes so much time go get the plane fixed when there's a problem in OSL, ARN, JFK or BKK. Now, I obviously have no idea if this is the whole truth, but if they stock all spare parts in London, maybe they should call it Boeing Clay Care instead of Gold Care.

DY also claims that Boeing had approved their 18 hour per day schedule. I'm totally flabbergasted if that is the whole truth. That would mean that both Boeing and DY live in some kind of fantasy world concerning fleet planning. In your dreams ...
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:08 pm

I'm not sure if we'll ever get full disclosure of this meeting or representations made by Boeing or their assumptions based on DY representations.

Bottom line: spares should be located at the very least at DY bases. Given JFK is a major international gateway, they should have spares available there for 787s. For BKK, the spares could be in SIN or DEL (where AI is based).

If there are certain parts which are failing more often, obviously, stock more of those parts.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
DY claims that all spare parts are located in London

Correct, and Boeing said to resolve these problems:

Quote:
"They agreed to put up spare part stocks at destinations we fly to," Kjos told Reuters. "And they'll send a dedicated team of experts to Norwegian so if there's a problem popping up, they can immediately solve it."

"If you look at the other 787 customers, most of them have technical problems too," Jenssen said. "It's a performance reliability problem and a quality issue from Boeing."

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20130926/BIZ/709269892
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 12):
For BKK, the spares could be in SIN or DEL (where AI is based).

Seriously? If placing the stock in London didn't work for Oslo and Stockholm, around 2 hours of flying away, how can Singapore (2.5 hours) or Delhi (4.5 hours) work for Bangkok? And, of all places, Delhi! Do you have any idea of the Indian bureaucracy and how difficult it is to get foreign parts, rotables particularly, into country - let alone out again without them having been 'used'? Surely this is a poor attempt at a bad joke!
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
This all smells like a ticking time bomb to me. Boeing WAS the last great hope of manufacturing in America. And now they've completely ruined the image of American manufacturing with the LemonLiner.

Dramatic much? This is one of the most idiotic things I've read on this forum.
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Braybuddy
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:55 am

Just comparing aircraft on the BA Source, and, since their introduction just a day apart, A380 G-XLEA has had an almost daily utilisation comprising 91 flights, while 787 G-ZBJA has flown just 24 times, with sometimes days between flights. Their second A380 has flown six times since it was introduced four days ago. 787 G-ZBJB has flown 26 times since its introduction a month ago, again with gaps in service (in once instance 10 days). G-ZBJC has flown 22 times since its introduction, again with some gaps of a few days in service. I know the A380 is a more mature aircraft, but it's surprising to see so many days missing from the 787s' schedules. Anyone any more info?

http://www.thebasource.com/jettracker.html
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:07 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 5):
People sometimes refer to the FIAT car brand as Fix It Again Tony.

Funny, in Germany we refer to FIAT as "Fehler in allen Teilen". (flaws in all parts)   *

But kidding aside, Boeing is definitely responsible for obviously existing flaws in their product. DY is not the only airline, which is furious about the 787 and their responses.


* But I have to admit that, in the last years, they've got their act together and the quality of their cars has increased.

[Edited 2013-09-27 00:17:55]
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LN-KGL
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:58 am

It wonders me why parts are needed on a brand new aircraft. Aren't these supposed to live longer than a few months, or are the 787s getting sub standard parts on the production line?

[Edited 2013-09-27 01:12:56]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:01 am

There was another issue:

http://twitter.com/ReutersAero/status/383487531540819968

Quote:
Norwegian Air says suffered another 787 Dreamliner breakdown on Friday which delayed a flight from Bangkok to Stockholm
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
worldrider
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:02 am

Quoting OM617 (Reply 8):
Don't Airbus make 320s in China? How are they holding up compared to the Toulouse/Finkenwerder models?

no they dont MAKE them there, they are ASSEMBLED
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:12 am

Quoting OM617 (Reply 8):
Don't Airbus make 320s in China? How are they holding up compared to the Toulouse/Finkenwerder models?

Airbus biggest fear was quality control so they had send a team from Europe to China to inspect the first assembled birds. Once the factory workers were through the learning curve, the team left China.

[Edited 2013-09-27 01:13:17]
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B777LRF
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:31 am

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 18):
It wonders me why parts are needed on a brand new aircraft. Aren't these supposed to live longer than a few months, or are the 787s getting sub standard parts on the production line?

Parts will always be needed, the trick when introducing a new aircraft type is to know which parts will see the highest usage and which will be the most critical, then order a 'start-up' package that fits those needs. The manufacturer will issue a recommended list of parts, which the customer will then buy all or parts of. In DY's case, however, the actual buying and stocking is also part of their Gold care package.
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SKAirbus
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:46 am

This isn't going to go down well:

Huge news in Norway is that one of DY's Dreamliners has been grounded (again!), this time due to hydrolic problems and just a couple of days after Boeing and DY's agreement on spare parts etc.

The flight was due to operate from BKK to ARN.

Article here: http://www.nrk.no/norge/dreamliner-fra-norwegian-pa-bakken-1.11266405 (in Norwegian)

However, I have taken the liberty of translating it to English. Being a translator, it doesn't take long!

---------------------------------------------

"Communication advisor Astrid Mannion has confirmed to NRK.no that there is a fault with the hydralic pump that has the resulted in the plane being grounded, and that it is not the first time this fault has occured on the new plane.

She informed us that the flight from Bangkok to Stockholm has been cancelled and that the airline is doing all it can in order to obtain tickets for the 197 passengers with other airlines. It is not easy, she explains, and as such cannot say how long it will take.

Astrid Mannion also has no overview of how many Norwegians were meant to be on the plane.

When the fault has been corrected the plane will be flown to Stockholm without passengers and subsequent monitoring will happen there, she informs.

Norwegian has experienced a number of problems with its Dreamliner aircraft recently and this had let to large delays. Earlier this week the top leadership of Boeing visited Norwegian in Oslo to try and resolve the problems.

Norwegian boss Bjørn Kjos said after the meeting with Boeing-management that the biggest problem was that it took so long to get reserve parts. The reserve parts are in London and it takes many hours to repair the damages. He said that Boeing has promised to make reserve parts available in more locations.

Boeing also promised to send a team of engineers to monitor the two aircraft closely.

Norwegian has two Dreamliner aircraft which operate on long haul routes to New York and Bangkok. The plane now grounded in Bangkok should have flown to Stockholm but it is not yet clear when the plane will fly again".

[Edited 2013-09-27 03:59:05]
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B747forever
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:04 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 23):
The flight was due to operate from BKK to ARN.

As of now the flight shows with a 6 hour delay. This means that today's afternoon flight to JFK will be at least 4.5 hours late.
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SKAirbus
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:06 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 24):
As of now the flight shows with a 6 hour delay. This means that today's afternoon flight to JFK will be at least 4.5 hours late.

According NRK the flight has been cancelled and will be flown back to ARN empty. I think we can safely say the JFK flight will also be cancelled pending the ability to charter a HiFly aircraft at short notice.
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Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:14 am

It's EI-LNB/LN112 (again) which is stuck in BKK
 
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 25):
I think we can safely say the JFK flight will also be cancelled pending the ability to charter a HiFly aircraft at short notice.

Unless DY can charter another aircraft they will have to cancel the JFK-ARN leg also. What a mess for DY.
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seansasLCY
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:29 am

Here is an interesting article (in Norwegian) about the problems. http://e24.no/spesial/norwegian
 
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:48 am

It's sad to see the 787 still suffering huge problems. You have to wonder how long this will continue and how they plan to solve it. I finally saw it leaving from CPH and it was a beautiful sight. Before this aircraft was introduced, I really looked forward to flying on it. Now I'd go out of my way to avoid it. Not only due to feeling uncomfortable with its safety, but also because I don't want to worry about there being a good chance of my flight being delayed or cancelled.
 
Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:21 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 27):
Unless DY can charter another aircraft they will have to cancel the JFK-ARN leg also

Probably not, as EI-LNA wasn't scheduled to due any flights today, so if they can send it from OSL to ARN it should be able to operate ARN-JFK
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:28 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 16):
Just comparing aircraft on the BA Source, and, since their introduction just a day apart, A380 G-XLEA has had an almost daily utilisation comprising 91 flights, while 787 G-ZBJA has flown just 24 times, with sometimes days between flights. Their second A380 has flown six times since it was introduced four days ago. 787 G-ZBJB has flown 26 times since its introduction a month ago, again with gaps in service (in once instance 10 days). G-ZBJC has flown 22 times since its introduction, again with some gaps of a few days in service. I know the A380 is a more mature aircraft, but it's surprising to see so many days missing from the 787s' schedules. Anyone any more info?

http://www.thebasource.com/jettracke....html

Not sure that's anything to do with the aircraft reliability. Due to the delivery delays as a result of the grounding, the 787 deliveries were more bunched up than planned. The training flights were a single daily 787, followed by 1 or 2 daily Toronto flights at the launch of long-haul service. For most of this period 2 aircraft were available, and 3 around the time the Toronto flights started. The A380 Frankfurt flights on the other hand had to be flown by a single A380 until G-XLEB was delivered just a few days before the LAX service started.

Also when you compare the Thomson experience, that appears to have been relatively trouble-free, and they are using 2 aircraft on intensive long-haul flying but there are 2 others flying 2-4 sectors per day on short-haul routes. Also before service started, there were weeks of training flights, which did not just take the form of circuit training, but actual simulated line sectors several times per day without passengers frequently visiting Hannover, Shannon and Newquay for example.

The difference with both these airlines from Norwegian is that they both have experience of both long-haul operations and introducing new Boeing types into service. Their initial planning was very conservative, and both had considerable slack built into their schedules at first. BA as outlined above had a spare aircraft at the start of long-haul flights, Thomson the same - although being used on short-haul flights it could be substituted if needed.

Whether Boeing technically "approved" Norwegian's proposed utilisation or not, it's not for them to advise what is advisable, only what is technically possible. It's not for them to get involved in what are commercial matters around how intensive the airline wants the utilisation to be.

I'm sure Norwegian have been unlucky, and the aircraft has not performed as expected, and Boeing has to take some blame for the issues - but equally Norwegian have not made life easy for themselves, and their lack of long-haul experience is probably showing. It's very different supporting the logistics of this type of operation from the short-haul they are very experienced with this, and when things go wrong the problems created are huge - for example on long flights a technical problem just before departure doesn't have to cause a huge delay before the crew go out of hours.

Both BA and Thomson have taken care to schedule their first season for the 787 to operate shorter long-haul routes, to a very small number of destinations (just Toronto for BA, Orlando SFB and Cancun for Thomson) so that the places the aircraft visits are quickly gaining experience, and other types such as the 767 can be substituted in the event of an issue. It is a complete lack of any backup aircraft without sub-chartering which is the reason Norwegian have suffered so badly from the problems caused.

Anyone who thinks the 777's introduction was trouble-free only has to go back to the Flight International archives from summer 1995 to read some of the problems when the type first entered service, some BA crews crudely nicknaked it the "cripple 7" at the time. It quickly became a world-beater though... The 787 is though very different to most other aircraft flying - the level of new technology introduced has lead most airlines to take a conservative approach - it's not just a plastic 767! The A380 while huge, and introducing some innovations is a far more conservative design.

While the 787 should now fast becoming a mature type, a lot of operators experience with the type will be down to their own planning of the introduction, their experience of operating similar types, and previous service entry. Sometimes the long term benefits will be gained from a conservative entry into service. Norwegian did the usual short-haul bit, but I think the problem with the planning was the full long-haul programme to be started before delivery of an additional frame.

Norwegian were unlucky with the delays earlier in the year, as they had no alternative but to subcharter, this further backed them into a corner with the utilisation in order to rid themselves of the expensive Hifly leases - but the overall problem goes back to the ambitious programme they had planned in the first place.

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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:55 pm

By reading the timetable at Norwegian.se it is clear that the 787 is scheduled 6 days a week with resting Fridays in Oslo and Sundays in Stockholm. How can this be concidered a tough schedule?
 
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 31):
Regards
CROSSWIND


Posts like these are the reason I joined a.net....thank you sir!

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TheRedBaron
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
I would be shocked if it were not cheaper for Boeing to simply buy back the a/c paying compensation allowing the carriers to select an Airbus product - PC thrown away - than pre-position fleets of plane sand crews with all the necessary paper work to be able to operate freely into the regions / countries involved.

If that happens, it will rain on hell followed by a blizzard.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
DY also claims that Boeing had approved their 18 hour per day schedule. I'm totally flabbergasted if that is the whole truth. That would mean that both Boeing and DY live in some kind of fantasy world concerning fleet planning. In your dreams ...

The way I see it they saw the performance warranties of the Aircraft, consulted Boeing, and they did not see a problem.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 12):
If there are certain parts which are failing more often, obviously, stock more of those parts.
Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 18):
It wonders me why parts are needed on a brand new aircraft. Aren't these supposed to live longer than a few months, or are the 787s getting sub standard parts on the production line?

Exactly my thoughts WHY does a spanking new aircraft that was marketed as a cheap to maintain due to newer technology, needs parts everywhere to get it going?

something does not add up. (or maybe its already raining in hell)

TRB
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:32 pm

How is LOT one of the first customers in Europe is doing with their Dreamliners ? I did not heard much bad news out of there.....
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 35):
I did not heard much bad news out of there.....

Well..... LOT Gives Boeing Ultimatum About 787 Compensation (by Gonzalo Sep 26 2013 in Civil Aviation)
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mjoelnir
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 31):
Whether Boeing technically "approved" Norwegian's proposed utilisation or not, it's not for them to advise what is advisable, only what is technically possible. It's not for them to get involved in what are commercial matters around how intensive the airline wants the utilisation to be.

The problems that DY is having are not operational but technical.

The flight schedule is 6 days flying one day rest. On average about 15 hours a day, of course the rest day included.
That should not be a problem on a type witch is not any longer "entering service" but has been now in service for more than one and a half year and is specially advertised for low service demand.
If the service is part of "operational problems" it is not a problem of DY but Boeing with there Gold Care service.
That includes the service and spare parts management

It does not matter what other airlines do, all of them not depending on Boeing for the service. All of them have to bring there departments up to scratch, whereas a service contracted out to the manufacturer should function from the go.

The ambitious program of DY should work, if there is taking mark on the advertised specs of the B 787.

The strangest idea in this discussion here is the assumption, that two long haul stretches a day should stress the airplane more than four shorter sections a day, up to now the assumption was that short haul with several section a day would be the more stressful.

All in all a good try again defending the indefensible, bashing the airline for problems wholly in the realm of the air framer.
 
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kanban
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
DY claims that all spare parts are located in London, and that's the reason why it takes so much time go get the plane fixed when there's a problem in OSL, ARN, JFK or BKK.

Boeing Spares ... the main store is at Seatac, there are regional stores around the world (used to be Singapore, Belgium, and NYC, although I think there are now a couple more (maybe Dubai) . The problem is they stock only Boeing proprietary parts that have sales records. Parts designed and manufactured using 'supplier controlled drawings' (SCD) with supplier patents are not stored by Boeing Spares and it's the airlines responsibility to establish both stock and spares relationships. The electrical panel was a Thales SCD so Boeing would not have it.. that must be what they are talking about coming from London.

Boeing can not insist the SCD manufacturers maintain spares stock.. they can only insist that they have an AOG process and response.

So before we cast darts, we need to know whether it is an SCD or a Boeing proprietary part involved. Yes, some will maintain that "Boeing should..." but reality is the business model that has worked since the 707 says no..
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:27 pm

FAL

Quoting kanban (Reply 38):
Boeing Spares ... the main store is at Seatac, there are regional stores around the world (used to be Singapore, Belgium, and NYC, although I think there are now a couple more (maybe Dubai) . The problem is they stock only Boeing proprietary parts that have sales records. Parts designed and manufactured using 'supplier controlled drawings' (SCD) with supplier patents are not stored by Boeing Spares and it's the airlines responsibility to establish both stock and spares relationships. The electrical panel was a Thales SCD so Boeing would not have it.. that must be what they are talking about coming from London.

Boeing can not insist the SCD manufacturers maintain spares stock.. they can only insist that they have an AOG process and response.

So before we cast darts, we need to know whether it is an SCD or a Boeing proprietary part involved. Yes, some will maintain that "Boeing should..." but reality is the business model that has worked since the 707 says no..

It does not matter in this case what Boeing does or does not stock.

DY bought the whole package regarding service from Boeing, that includes managing the spare parts.
It is a Boeing decisions where and what spare parts Boeing keeps for the B 787 for DY.
So it is a Boeing responsibility to have the right spare part, at the right time, at the right place.
 
blrsea
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:34 pm

I don't know if this article was posted before or not. It lists some of the problems that DY has had since inducting the 787s. The issues seem to be all over the place, not limited to one or two areas.

Boeing exec meets with Norwegian Air over 787

Quote:
...
Norwegian's newly established long-haul 787 flights to New York and Bangkok were disrupted throughout September by three apparently unrelated component failures, first involving the jet's electrical power, then hydraulics, and most recently the cockpit oxygen supply, according to a person with knowledge of the incidents.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last weekend, both 787s were grounded because a leaky regulator on an oxygen bottle depleted the emergency oxygen supply available to the pilots in both airplanes.
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When the planes arrived in Oslo, replacement oxygen bottles were not immediately available, and flights had to be canceled.
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At the beginning of the month, one Norwegian Air 787 was grounded for five days after a power supply issue in the electric brake system showed up during routine maintenance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After that was fixed, the carrier's second 787 developed an unrelated power supply problem, this time connected to the jet's central computing system, which grounded that jet for another day.
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Then in mid-September, a 787 flight from Oslo to New York was delayed until the next day after a hydraulic pump failed. Passengers waited hours at the terminal for the pump to be fixed; then a final check discovered an unrelated leak in a hydraulic hose to the landing gear. The flight didn't take off until next day.
 
sankaps
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:27 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 40):
I don't know if this article was posted before or not. It lists some of the problems that DY has had since inducting the 787s. The issues seem to be all over the place, not limited to one or two areas.

Boeing exec meets with Norwegian Air over 787

Some of this information is pretty damning, seems like poor QC. No excuses really, 4 years after first flight and 2 years after EIS to continue to have these kinds of AOG-creating QC issues or "teething" problems.
 
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kanban
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 40):
The issues seem to be all over the place, not limited to one or two areas.

Three of the four replacements are not considered spare-able.. even for a Boeing fleet. they are unique one off events.. Hydraulic hoses are generally stocked by airlines.. I don't understand all the details of the Boeing agreement.. however I sense the details are not as inclusive as comments suggest.

If someone can post the contract I'll be glad to comment.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:41 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 41):
Some of this information is pretty damning, seems like poor QC

That's what I'm thinking as well. I 100% acknowledge that Norwegian should probably have stronger operational contingencies in place, BUT these issues are decidedly technical. People can criticise them for how they have handled the issues, but the mere fact that these issues are occurring points to responsibility by Boeing.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ferpe
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:21 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 40):
I don't know if this article was posted before or not. It lists some of the problems that DY has had since inducting the 787s. The issues seem to be all over the place, not limited to one or two areas.

We now have 2 times problems with hydraulics pumps (the last problem added after the list was compiled was a pump). This is surprising, there is nothing really new on the hydraulics side IIRC, it is a 5000 PSI system but that is vanilla technology today IMO. Is it a new supplier?
Non French in France
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:35 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 42):
Three of the four replacements are not considered spare-able.. even for a Boeing fleet. they are unique one off events.. Hydraulic hoses are generally stocked by airlines.. I don't understand all the details of the Boeing agreement.. however I sense the details are not as inclusive as comments suggest.

If someone can post the contract I'll be glad to comment.

The service for the DY B 787 is farmed out to Boeing including spare parts management, a central part of Boeing GoldCare services.
Unless you can show that the contract limits the responsibility of Boeing, I assume that Boeing is 100% responsible.
 
art
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 37):
If the service is part of "operational problems" it is not a problem of DY but Boeing with there Gold Care service.That includes the service and spare parts management
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 39):
DY bought the whole package regarding service from Boeing, that includes managing the spare parts.It is a Boeing decisions where and what spare parts Boeing keeps for the B 787 for DY.So it is a Boeing responsibility to have the right spare part, at the right time, at the right place.

  

If you charge a client extra for a service to keep their equipment working in a timely manner, that is the service you should provide.
 
StTim
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:48 am

With the amount of outsourced suppliers Boeing must have been looking for a huge reduction in the stores they had to carry. If I was an airline and the option was to have multiple contracts or one throat to squeeze I know which way I would be going.

I find it astounding that a Thales unit that is part of the original equipment can be seen as an item not stocked by Boeing.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:48 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 47):
With the amount of outsourced suppliers Boeing must have been looking for a huge reduction in the stores they had to carry.

Boeing maintains inventory based on historical MTBF data. It appears even the most reliable parts so far are failing quickly and randomly on 787. My theory in the hype of energy savings Boeing probably asked every vendor to achieve certain % (say 20) savings. Some vendors used advanced technology and some reduced weight. In the process every vendor messed with already reliable products and here we are.

I think Boeing should slowdown production and take a holistic look of entire program. For starters they should increase quality checks at their delivery center. There is no point rolling out lemons.
 
uberflieger
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RE: Norwegian Has Had Enough Of Dreamliner Nightmare 2

Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:54 pm

according to Reuters DY is returning the 787 currently stuck in Bangkok and won't take her back until Boeing can assure a more reliable performance

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/norweg...r-boeing-breakdowns-114526153.html
Thank you Tess Asplund

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