Angry? No. If you want to see anger thrown at Lion Air, all you need to see is videos of passengers blowing their fuses whenever there's excess delay, or see what the Lion-haters write on the media, court cases, wherever... The pax having a riot at the airport happens with Lion repeatedly that the media now don't bother to cover that as news unless someone threw a garbage can at the ticket office, hold hostage a Lion Manager, or conduct a sit in at the aircraft and/or apron (sit-in/pax-strike at the boarding gate simply don't make the news anymore). If you want anger, go and look for those...
What I wrote was far from it, and no, I'm not joking about the stuff written.
|Quoting Centre (Reply 15):|
How can you blame not expanding an airport on Lion air?
I have heard allegations of at least 3 airports whose expansion was put on hold "on request" (accompanied by some brown bags of cash) by this carrier in an attempt to "squeeze out competitors out of parking slots". At the same time, some of their early methods of "market sabotage" was to deliberately park an MD80 across two parking stands during peak hour at some small airport using the reason of it's length and the not so long apron and the need for other aircraft to be able to taxi by... and hey hey, you just made your competitor divert because of "lack of parking stand" all of a sudden. Another of their favourite back in the MD80 days was to actually just park in straight at stand next to an apron entry taxiway, and block that entry/exit for the apron with it's tail, causing disruptions, holdings, etc (yes, small airports with 2 apron entry taxiways were a favourite for this method 10 yrs ago).
You don't want to know the past slot squatting operations they do (I'm sure HB
-IWC knows this VERY well from the target's point of view) in order to prevent competitors using up that slot. (eg: publish 20 flights, fly only 10, rotate the ones you actually fly, make sure each slots are used every 3 weeks to prevent revocation... oh yeah, while actively 'persuading' competitors to give up theirs or reporting other airlines doing slot squatting).
|Quoting Centre (Reply 15):|
I hardly see how is this a problem for the airline who wants to expand and make more money
Oh well, I guess you haven't heard of the problems airlines have here for importing aircraft having to be put on hold because the "DGCA isn't convinced that the airline has adequate crew to operate the aircraft" (regardless if the airline wants to put the aircraft as a spare)... while this big red 737 operator has no problems even if it means 45 pilots has to fly exceeding the annual 1050 flying hrs limit last year... yeah, those were the ones that got caught, and who got the punishment? The pilots, the airline who asked for the rules to be broken, got away with it... oh, let's not forget the competitors who had pilots grounded because a 7-day flying hour limit was exceeded by 5 minutes, and the airline had a slap by the DGCA.
Furthermore, we have a silly 5 5 rule for scheduled operators here... you need to have 10 aircraft, 5 owned and the other 5 can be leased/hired/whatever... Airlines have been threatened to be shut down by the government for non-compliance, and even Lion Air has said, "we have no trouble of complying"... guess what, in April it was announced that Lion was amongst the carrier that had not complied, and this was again revealed early this month... but all the "threats against non-compliance" of this rule disappeared. Funny isn't it?
There seems to be a correlation between "government talk of freezing new AOC
issues or industry expansion" whenever there's a rise in 'lack of payments to vendors' by Lion Air... After seeing this pattern for 10 years, you'd start to wonder what planet you're on at times.
|Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 18):|
The question is for how long the company will be able to keep doing this.
2011 - 2012 brought a lot of hope in how Lion actually tried to clean up inside. I mean they really did. Incidents and accidents per 10,000 departures rate went down by 90%, OTP
went up, training per workforce headcount went up, passenger complaints per million revenue passenger kilometers went down, etc etc etc etc.... you name it, it was there... and it wasn't just talk... it did happen... BUT, all that change for the better started to fade after the announcement of Batik and Malindo... and the guys at the forefront of the change were shunted back and forth between Lion, Batik, Malindo and Lion Bizjets... resulting in the "usual suspects" and their understudies quickly cementing their grip on the grassroots once again!
|Quoting Centre (Reply 19):|
And the cost structure in Indonesia is much cheaper than that in the Western world
Despite using the most efficient airplane (in terms of cost per available seat kilometer), it does not have the lowest cost per seat kilometer in the country, and I think even some western LCCs beat it.
And much cheaper than the western world? Think again! Your basic newbie right-seater on the jet gets paid more than some of your regional jet captains... even our prop right-seater newbies gets the same salary as your prop junior captains, if you're in the right carrier (and it doesn't have to be on state-owned Garuda). Right seaters on the 320 with 1000hrs here earn the same or maybe more after tax than some of their European counterparts. The junior flight attendants here can earn more after tax than their European or American counterparts. This country isn't cheap when it comes to aviation... loads of costs... ground staff and junior engineers do earn less than their European and American counterparts, that one is for sure... but crew?
The 2 - 3 years ago the CASK
for Southwest is lower than for Lion, I wouldn't be surprised if it still is. (I recall one day when WN
was at 4.7c/SK, Lion was at 4.9c/SK).
Now, add that fact with a seat load factor of "filled to the brim 90% of the time", but with a very low "average ticket price per seat kilometer", HB
-IWC's question is a very valid one. And before I continue, I'll quote a question from you...
|Quoting Centre (Reply 19):|
How is this any different from RyanAir or Spirit Airlines?
You can see their cost numbers if not directly then through their financial reporting. LionAir, is not publicly listed.
Ryanair and Spirit are LCCs... LionAir is an Low Fare Carrier, not an LCC...
Go and look at the average fare paid per seat hour, only Batavia would beat it's price when it lasted. Lion often sell average fare for a flight below cost of other airlines with lower CASK
than Lion! This isn't just simple observation based from seeing the prices on their website... talk to the reservations control for Lion and it's competitors, you'd start having the same question as HB
This is also an airline that refused to give numbers to validate its nomination for awards...
Start having business negotiations with them (anything outside provision of aircraft), and you'd wonder how the hell these guys survive and thrive... Have a meet about datalink with one of the directors, and you'd end up spending 1 hour talking about his needs for a local tire factory to make plane tires for him to save cost etc etc etc...
Answer1: Malaysia, Thailand, and Vietnam
Answer2: A big proportion of the outstanding orders are replacement aircraft starting 2017, not fleet expansion.
|Quoting neutrino (Reply 23):|
I don''t sense any anger in that post.
Anger, certainly not.
And yes, apart from the large outstanding orders for the NGs and MAXes and NEOs, they've also recently announced they're ordering 50 - 100 N219s (local replacement for C212s and Twotter competitor). And yet, they still can't find a market for the 2 747-400s they operate to fly to... unless they've banished them forever from its fleet list...