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SR380
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Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:33 pm

The other day I was going through Geneva Airport will I notice a Darwin Airlines (F7) Saab 2000 with a different livery. F7 has a fleet of 10 Saab 2000 aircraft that you can see in at least 3 differents livery. They use to fly Dash 8 Q400 after the merger with Baboo, but they got ride of those. I was wondering if anyone had a idea about any fleet plan a F7? The Saab are getting old, and I am even wondering how F7 manage to get spare parts. I also realize they have a lot of technical issues with those aging aircraft. Why not replace those with E-Jet such as the E-145. A such aircraft can operate from all airport F7 is flying from, including Lugano. If anyone can help...
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:47 pm

Quoting SR380 (Thread starter):
Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?  

I don't know.

Quoting SR380 (Thread starter):
I also realize they have a lot of technical issues with those aging aircraft. Why not replace those with E-Jet such as the E-145.

Their Saab 2000 are between 15 and 19 years. Do they have means to do that ? What's their financial situation ?
 
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SR380
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:57 pm

I don't have any information about there financial situation, but judging by the fact the bought Baboo recently I would say it's ok. Would leased E-145 cost more than 20 years old Saab? On there web page the say that they are all about values such as: "Swiss made quality". I wonder how thraceling in a 20 years old noisy aircraft is "quality".
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:58 pm

The aircraft aren't that old, they are comfortable, have good STOL performance and relatively low lease rates and operating costs. To flip the question around, why would you want to embark on a costly fleet renewal?

Quoting SR380 (Thread starter):
Why not replace those with E-Jet such as the E-145. A such aircraft can operate from all airport F7 is flying from, including Lugano.

Operating an ERJ 145 from Lugano would end in a fiery mess, even a 135 wouldn't work in pax configuration because of the altitude. To operate an ERJ 145 year around you ideally need an 1,800m runway or longer.


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SR380
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:09 pm

Hey Dan. I find' know about all those altitude restriction. I guess that is why Lugano is upgrading it's runway. I think a fleet renewal would be a start to wash up the image that convey Darwin in here. If you compare F7 to SkyWork (SX) for exemple there is a hudge gap. But they offre the same flight (the first one from GVA-LUG-CBG, whist (SX) flighing from BRN), they just don't offre the same service at all. I really wish for then to upgrade there services, and there aircraft.
 
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:43 pm

With a name like Darwin, I assume their fleet strategy is evolving!!   
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SR380
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:58 pm

They called it Darwin because they wanted the airline to be a evolution of the low cost....
 
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SR380
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:21 pm

It's unny how thinks turn up. Just talks with a friend of mine which is a ex-Darwin staff, and he told me that EY might invest or even buy F7! We might see some changes after all
 
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:51 pm

Quoting SR380 (Thread starter):
Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

I hope not, I love this plane. Along with the BAe ATP, which I never got a chance to fly, and now that they're gone from the Azores, I probably never will. I can't understand why more airlines weren't interested in these aircraft. More fuel efficient and operationally similar to jets than small props, since they can use jetways. I guess it was just bad timing with regional jets and cheap oil.
 
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SR380
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:11 pm

Indeed. But I really hope that we will soon get a regional airline a Geneva that has a "real" fleet, with a network that allow us to have a choice instead of flying EZS just because we don't have a choice...
 
factsonly
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 8):
I can't understand why more airlines weren't interested in these aircraft.

Both the SAAB 2000 and BAe ATP saw limited sales, as the aircraft did not compare very favorably with their competitors at the time.

The first to be launched was the BAe ATP, which in reality was a stretched and warmed over HS748. The aircraft was relatively heavy and underpowered compared to the ATR42, Dash-8 and Fokker 50 - three competing models that sold more extensively at that time. The ATP suffered reliability issues due to its P&W126 engines and quickly gained negative press. From personal experience, I can tell you that during my first flight on a British Midland BAe ATP the bathroom door fell off its hinges when I went to inspect the bathroom. Flimsy design....does not make a good impression!

As for the Saab 2000, the aircraft came late in the turboprop market, as a fast stretched Saab 340.
As a 50-seater the aircraft competed in principle with ATR42, Dash-8, BAe ATP and Fokker 50, however by the time it came to market airlines were just starting to switch to Regional Jets. The speed, noise and vibrations of the Saab 2000 did not compare favourably with regional jets and SAAB sold relatively small numbers. Crossair was a famous SAAB 2000 operator (and Fokker 50 operator), as it was a long-time Saab 340 operator and the Swiss have always stayed loyal to the SAAB 2000. That's why Darwin still operates the type today.

check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_ATP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_2000
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:13 pm

F7 has decided that what it has is the best or most appropriate aircraft for its network at this time, or the best or most appropriate for what it can afford.

This “buy new aircraft” stuff is perplexing: for an airline like F7, why would it need to? Who would pay for it? Why burden yourself with all the extra debt? It would need to charge higher fares to offset the ownership costs, or accept lower margins, or utilise its aircraft much more to reduce the ownership costs per ASK.

While highly generalised, most airlines don’t earn profit (or if they do, almost all of each $1 in revenue flies out the window), don’t have a return on their cost of capital, don’t have much “cash” so their cash flow is often poor, and have often have poor debt-equity ratios. Given this, they must consider any big capital investment extremely seriously.

No doubt F7 will consider its fleet composition as and when it needs to, e.g. if it seeks to diversify, to open new markets, etc.

[Edited 2013-09-28 09:30:20]
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rlwynn
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:28 pm

The altutude at Lugano is 273 meters. That hardly seems like high altitude.
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dc9northwest
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:33 pm

Considering the Saabs have speed comparable to a jet (ok, not quite (600 vs 800 km/h)... but on routes F7 operates, the difference is minimal time-wise) and the fuel consumption of a prop, they'd be *idiots* to acquire Embraer 145s, for instance.

The only options I see are ATR 72-600 (which has all the looks of a seal swimming through an oil spill) and the Dash 8-400. I prefer the Saab to either. Considering they just got more Saab 2000s, this question shouldn't be asked for a few years at least.
 
OlafW
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 8):
Along with the BAe ATP, which I never got a chance to fly, and now that they're gone from the Azores, I probably never will.

Well, you might have a chance by going to Sweden. Nextjet ( http://www.nextjet.se/ ) apparently still flies 4 of them.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 12):
The altutude at Lugano is 273 meters. That hardly seems like high altitude.

There are two issues with that airport.

One is runway length - the S-2000, ATR72-600, Dash8-400 can all operate safely from the runway which is only 1,350m (4,429 ft) long. An ERJ takes about 1,800 ft of runway to be safe for full operational conditions.

The other is surrounding terrain. The turboprops have a much better climb capability than the regional jets at a full passenger load.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Will Darwin Airlines (F7) Ever Order New Aircraft?

Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:18 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 12):
The altutude at Lugano is 273 meters. That hardly seems like high altitude.

It is enough to make the EMB-135 off limits in passenger configuration. It barely works at sea level (LCY) as it is so marginal, add another almost 1000ft altitude and it would not be able to haul a viable payload.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 15):
There are two issues with that airport.

One is runway length - the S-2000, ATR72-600, Dash8-400 can all operate safely from the runway which is only 1,350m (4,429 ft) long. An ERJ takes about 1,800 ft of runway to be safe for full operational conditions.

The other is surrounding terrain. The turboprops have a much better climb capability than the regional jets at a full passenger load.

Exactly.


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