doulasc
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One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:03 am

MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?
 
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Miami
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?

I was actually thinking of that the other day!

I think MIA and FLL would just form as one airport sometime in the future.
I'd love to see that.

Let's face it. MIA and FLL need a total makeover. Now I love both my airports, but to combine two major airports as one would be lovely. It'll be more modern and have more space. Giving more opportunities for current and future airlines.

MIA is known for international, while FLL is known for Domestic. Combine the two and it'll be similar to LAX.  

They can make the airport in Aventura or North Miami Beach. Right in between the two airports.

It'll be great for the city of Miami if they moved away from downtown. It'll be able to make tall skyscrapers without the FAA giving them any problems.

-Miami   

[Edited 2013-09-28 20:24:58]
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ATCtower
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:28 am

Unless youre going all Dubai and building stuff on water, no it wont happen. It doesnt need to.

MIA/FLL both serve TOTALLY different markets and are both profitable doing so. There would be no reason to combine it. MIA has MORE than enough runway to fly anytime they arent being blown away by a hurriicane and FLL is a secondary AP that is thriving just as MDW is. The way they are, works.
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LV
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:29 am

There was a proposal to build an airport in the middle of the Everglades. There is even a runway out where it was supposed to be and a small airport there. It's called the Dade-Collier Training and Transition airport. It is still open as far as I know. Here are the details : http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTNT

My landlord was a pilot for US Customs in the Miami office in the 80's and talks about chasing planes trying to land there to dump a load of drugs. He has some crazy stories from those days.
 
LittleFokker
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:39 am

You're under the impression that American aviation is still growing. Passenger traffic has been flat for the last few years, and all indications are that won't be changing any time soon. There are some new markets getting served, but only at the expense of existing lesser performing markets. MIA/FLL won't be needing a new airport in the near future, if ever.
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cf6ppe
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:22 am

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?

There was, but no one wanted to drive 40 or 50 miles to get to a remotely located airport.

See above comments.

Also, do a search on "everglades jet port". There is quite a lot of info re: the topic....
 
BOStonsox
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:46 am

I don't know much about South Florida, however I think that a third airport would be used before MIA and FLL are combined, and there is one which would be the perfect candidate. As it is, it is also perfect for any ULCC: OPK (Opa-Locka, FL). It's midway between the two airports and it is less than two miles from Tri-Rail between Miami and Fort Lauderdale (it's about the same distance as BWI's terminal is from the Amtrak station there). The longest runway is over 8,000 feet. I'm a bit surprised it doesn't already see service!
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Beechtobus
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:03 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
They can make the airport in Aventura or North Miami Beach. Right in between the two airports.

It'll be great for the city of Miami if they moved away from downtown. It'll be able to make tall skyscrapers without the FAA giving them any problems.

Ha ha! how many 10s or possibly 100s of billions of dollars would that cost? Do you know how densely populated Aventura, and N. Miami Beach are? It would be completely unfeasible with how many people would need to be relocated, how much area and infrastructure would have to be cleared, never mind the skyscrapers that exist on this part of the coast and then the cost of building the airport and required infrastructure. If a new build airport for Dade and Broward would be built, It would be in the glades, far to the west.

But I don't think that will happen any time soon as ATCtower states.

-FLL will soon have 2 air carrier runways, a new 14 gate intl. terminal and room to expand the remaining terminals.
-Miami will likely start a complete overhaul on the E,F, and G gates soon as well.
-PBI has all kinds of room to expand.
-Homestead may eventually become a joint use airfield depending on the growth of the south metro area.
-And finally high-speed rail can be built along the Tri-rail corridor to link these airport and population/business centers.

Plenty of other expansion options well before a joint airport for Broward/Dade would need to even be considered.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:49 am

If the op is proposing closing MIA and FLL to operate a third facility, then I would say its not going to happen. MIA has spent millions on AA's terminal and will eventually spend millions more on the central concourse.
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brilondon
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:21 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 8):

If the op is proposing closing MIA and FLL to operate a third facility, then I would say its not going to happen. MIA has spent millions on AA's terminal and will eventually spend millions more on the central concourse.

I was thinking the same thing. The new AA terminal at MIA combined with the new infrastructural improvements at MIA would make a new airport financially a white elephant. Montreal tried to do that with YMX and as is well documented was a complete failure and cost billions that would never be recouped. Of course there will be people who think that they can do it differently and make a go of it by doing the same thing and expecting different results. Insanity prevails in our society so I guess that it will happen one day.
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par13del
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day.

Growth based on what, international arrivals or regional domestic growth such as commercial and residential?
If we take residential growth, it is leaving the major cities which gets closer to the other regional airports besides Miami and Ft. Lauderdale such as Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando to name a few. South Florida is not a connecting point for domestic US travel, it is mostly O/D. So as the population spreads out even further, the other airports will naturally gain more traffic as they will be more convenient.
On the international side, those airports above can already handle international travel and if the long haul twins continue to take over the market they will see more international travel.

At present mass transit is in its infancy in the region in terms of train travel between the major cities, so folks are driving, in which case going to airports that are closer and more convenient is their best option.

As to finding the property to build a massive airport where are you looking to the west of Mia / FLL somewhere in the middle of the two so that both regions can share in the spoils, good luck with that one.
However, there are creative minds around especially if its tax payers money being considered.
 
jfk777
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:52 pm

If one combined airport could get built where would it be built ? The everglades are west from Miami and FLL, there is not enough land anywhere down there for an airport that size. It was tried in the 1960's, to build a jetport west from Miami, but it got cancelled, the enviromentalists won.

The two separate airports also work well because the population is very dense down there, shorter times to the airport work well. South Florida is also full of second homes, short distances to the airport are appealing to this population, New Yorkers especially.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
If one combined airport could get built where would it be built ? The everglades are west from Miami and FLL, there is not enough land anywhere down there for an airport that size. It was tried in the 1960's, to build a jetport west from Miami, but it got cancelled, the enviromentalists won.

I believe that the Everglades are under environmental protection and it would be impossible to get approval to build an airport there. There are already serious concerns that the Everglades are diminishing due to urban sprawl threatening many species unique to the area.

That being said, MIA enjoys its popularity much the same as DCA--as a close-in, convenient airport, geographically restricted but workable. I must admit that MIA occupies a very valuable piece of real estate and I am sure that developers would love to get their hands on it.
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cschleic
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:36 pm

FLL also serves a lot of cruise passengers, and the cruise port is very close to the airport. Moving traffic away from that airport would be an issue.
 
flymia
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:15 pm

This will never happen and I see no reason why it would need to ever happen. FLL has some room to expand and they are increasing capacity with a second airliner runway.

Both airports are close to the seaports which is very important to the cruise lines and airlines.
Both airports are close to their city downtown and urban cores.
Both airports are undergoing or have undergone huge renovation/expansion projects
Neither airport is close to going over capacity.
There is no where to to build this mega airport. The Everglades are protected rightfully so and there is zero land between FLL and MIA to build it. And what a pain it would be to drive from some western area of Broward county to Miami and Miami Beach. MIA just got a new $500 million metrorail expansion. It would make zero sense.

So what could happen when that day actually comes with FLL and MIA are over capacity? First I don't see that happening for a very long time but the two best alternatives are:
Building a passenger terminal at OPF or Expanding OPF or Homestead Air Force base to be cargo only airports and allow some of the cargo space currently used at MIA to be turned into a passenger area. But even that is unlikely.

I just don't see the need for anything like this for a long time.

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
They can make the airport in Aventura or North Miami Beach. Right in between the two airports

This might be biggest fantasy comment I ever seen on Anet. The location makes sense geographically but it would require tens of thousands if not 100,000 people to be relocated, and probably over $80 billion in funds if not even more. It makes no sense. That is a densely populated area with high rise buildings and important roads in place.
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:39 pm

Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless. Lower fees.

Miami is an expensive airport that's why low-cost carriers go to FLL instead.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Both airports are undergoing or have undergone huge renovation/expansion projects

Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.
They only have plans to redevelop the central terminal. That's it.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Building a passenger terminal at OPF or Expanding OPF or Homestead Air Force base to be cargo only airports and allow some of the cargo space currently used at MIA to be turned into a passenger area

Yeah... That's not happening. Not even in a million years.

Take a look at the proposed redevelopment of the central terminal:
http://exmiami.org/index.php/miami-i...l-terminal-redevelopment-proposed/
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par13del
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:45 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.
They only have plans to redevelop the central terminal. That's it.

Based on the money spent on the last few terminals, the new rental center and the screwed up station placement for the metro rail they need to go into hiding for a few years and let the public get over their incompetence that has cost the tax payers dearly and went way over budget.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 4):
You're under the impression that American aviation is still growing. Passenger traffic has been flat for the last few years, and all indications are that won't be changing any time soon.

The OP really needs to decamp to China with his 'big new airport' fantasies. The new DEN opened almost 20 years ago now, and that may be the last massive clean-sheet effort for a major metro new airport for generations in the U.S.
 
N62NA
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:49 pm

Having one big airport isn't the right approach. We've got 3 major population centers here in South Florida and each has it's own airport. That's the way to go.

As for some other comments.

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):

MIA is known for international, while FLL is known for Domestic. Combine the two and it'll be similar to LAX.

There's tons of domestic service at MIA. I would bet even more domestic destinations are served from MIA than from FLL. It just happens to be almost all on AA.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless.

12/30 isn't useless at all. It's very useful. It's used all the time at the same time as the other 3 runways.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.

They're finishing off the rental car / Tri-Rail / Amtrak / Metrorail hub. That's a pretty big and important project.
 
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 18):
12/30 isn't useless at all. It's very useful. It's used all the time at the same time as the other 3 runways.

Would you rather have a new expansion and close runway 12/30 (3rd longest runway) or keep runway 12/30 and leave the airport how it is?
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flymia
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless. Lower fees

You want them to lower fees but you also want them to continuously make renovations and expansion? Those two don't go together. 12/30 is used all the time. Runways are very important in keeping capacity up.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Explain to me what are they doing at MIA RIGHT NOW??
MIA isn't doing anything at the moment.

The Miami central station is sort of a big thing. They still haven't fully completed the North Terminal. There are lounge renovations and gate renovations going on also. Do you the airport to continually be a construction zone? The Central Terminal will be renovated redone at some point but it takes money. Miami doesn't print money. It takes time.

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Yeah... That's not happening. Not even in a million years.

It's probably about a 10,000% better chance than your one airport idea.

Quoting Miami (Reply 19):
Would you rather have a new expansion and close runway 12/30 (3rd longest runway) or keep runway 12/30 and leave the airport how it is?

If you close down a runway you cut capacity. The central terminal, espcially when redone will have plenty of extra capacity. MIA isn't getting near a over capacity danger zone for a while.
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canyonblue17
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:46 pm

Two thoughts.....Fort Lauderdale is in the process of extending the south runway to allow for significant expansion, and there is the very underutilized PBI only 45 minutes north of FLL.
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N62NA
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 19):
Would you rather have a new expansion and close runway 12/30 (3rd longest runway) or keep runway 12/30 and leave the airport how it is?

Keep runway 12/30 and complete the current projects.
 
cmf
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
MIA and FLL will run out of room to grow some day. Do you think that a airport built to the west caddy corner from FLL and MIA could serve both Dade and Broward County someday replacing FLL and MIA?

If MIA and FLL didn't exist and they looked for where to put an airport I'm sure that is what would happen. But, it isn't the situation.

Reality is that Dade and Broward are filled with airports and that MIA and FLL have plenty of growth left in them. Personally i expect Opa Locka and North Perry are much more likely to be converted to residential housing than to relief for MIA and FLL.
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incitatus
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:13 pm

A single airport to replace both FLL and MIA will happen as soon as the transformation of Central Park in NYC into a VSTOL airport is completed.  
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point2point
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:18 pm

Hmmmmm.......

Simple numbers here:
2012
MIA total pax: 38,314,389
FLL total pax: 23,349,835
---------------------61,664,224 total pax MIA + FLL in 2012 for a combined MFILAL airport

If this were a single airport such as ATL, DEN, MSP, etc., this 61,664,224 number would make MFILAL airport the 4th busiest in the U.S, after ATL, ORD and LAX, and only short by 200K pax compared to LAX with its 61,862,052.

Worldwide, MFILAL airport would have been the 8th busiest in terms of total pax in the year of 2012 if it existed.

And now with all of that, in a world where if MIA and FLL were to be shut down, and MFILAL airport is built and the only airport in that South Florida region to allow commercial traffic, ...........

..........then I would say let's keep our fingers crossed that this airport would be one facility that would WOW the rest of the world. I think that this hypothetical (with an ever so so so little chance of probably ever happening) MFILAL airport would be super state of the art....... and since it's close to Cape Canaveral, I would think that there are those whose capabilities could make this a space travel airport as well, with airline, and other multi-modal beyond current state of the art..........

Just my thoughts...... and if ever that South Florida area of MIA and FLL by some outlandish twist of fate were to have one big regional airport for both areas...... then the South Florida there area deserves the best......

.....why not?

 
 
doug
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:02 am

If the two were combined as far as take offs/landings it would probably be the 3rd busiest behind ATL and ORD maybe 4th DFW is up there to.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:03 am

What I have seen so far, didn't read eveything too much to read and I am getting lazy in my old age... but I think everyone can agree on this...

There is no where you can build a consolidated airport anymore. TNT was an idea back in the 1960s to build this airport city with 8 runways, multiple terminals, SST port and build up actual towns around it. Miami area is built up all the way to the Everglades. Building a huge facility in the everglades would go over like a fart in church with the environmentalists. It would make a mess out of the everglades, messing up the water flow, ecosystem and on top of that impacting hundreds of types of endangered species of various types of plants and animals. Build it anywhere else in the Miami area as other people said it would displace thousands of people and costs in the several billions to relocate houses and businesses.

One place I was looking at for those familiar with MIA area - maybe that area between Krome Ave and the Turnpike, south of Hwy 27 Okeechobee Rd north of Tamiami Trail 41 - that really isn't the Everglades yet and not built up either. It would still be an air pollution impact over the everglades depending on the configuration of the runways.

Forget anything near the beach - that would cost into the tens of billions.

Homestead ARB would be the ideal size for a new airport but very inconvenient especially to people traveling from Ft Lauderdale. Miami is is a great location near Downtown, just minutes from downtown, the beaches and the attractions. Homestead is just too far away.

Homestead as a reliever airport someday could work if they eventually close down the Air Reserve Base, which is getting down to that point. I don't see a mass move of airlines from MIA to Homestead though. I don't see AA moving some operations there. The most I see is maybe a couple ultra LCCs setting up shop there like Allegiant. They could market Homestead as the closest commercial airport to Key Largo and some of the keys. Maybe try to market to some European charters also . However I don't see any of the major domestic or international service setting up service there other than a few P2P flights.

Even though MIA is landlocked, it isn't in danger of filling to capacity yet. I hardly ever see them use Runway 9 for departures other than some cargo flights and an occassional international. I have sat at El Dorado and seen nothing arriving or departing on 9, while they are lining up for 8R. The last few times I was there I barely even saw 8L used for arrivals or departures.

Someone else mentioned - they should shut down 12/30 and they could build out the terminal there. I agree. I see 8L underused most of the time. Planes landing on 12 that could land on 8L instead. I rarely see more than a handful of departures on 12 and only once seen a departure on 30 (while 9/27 was closed for maint). I can hear the Avation Photography of Miami facebook page guys letting out a groan on this suggestion.

IT would be costly but if they did a cargo facility realignment, re-alligned the terminals, they could possibly fit a 4th parallel runway next to 9 - therefore giving them 4 parallel. They could redo the terminals in between the runways almost like an ATL set up with a total redesign. It would still cost in the billions to do, but would be much cheaper than a whole greenfield design.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:57 am

Another option would be to move Cargo ops to Homestead or OPF. I do not know how much cargo gets transfered from an AA plane to a Centurion Cargo, Tampa Cargo or LAN Cargo plane, but I am refering to the heavy container cargo. The Cargo U area and the cargo city near the tower could eventually be closed and demolished for a future parallel runway along 9 with the terminals being built if Runway 12/30 was removed.

Basically the airlines that use the cargo Us - LAN Cargo, Atlas, Tampa/Avianca Cargo, China Cargo, DHL/ABX, Amerijet, Martinair, Cargolux etc could eventually be moved to homestead. Centurion/Skylease as well as Asiana, Cathay Cargo, Korean which use the northeast cargo area (as well as contractors Southern, Evergreen) by LeJeune/36th could also eventually be moved to Homestead and make it a cargo airport. Would be more beneficial than making Homestead into another passenger airport.

You could have a west entrance to the terminal facilities from the 826 Palmetto, already there is a bridge built for the truck traffic above 25th St. The 25th St bridge could be widened and expanded for terminal traffic some day if they were to use the west side eventually for terminal purposes, since the infrastructure is there.

There are a lot of things that you could do with MIA, especially when it has 3 major highways around it before you would have to consider building a new greenfield site.

The same could be done with FLL if it reaches capacity, which it won't for a while once the new runway is built.
 
MIADeparture
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 15):
Right now MIA needs to focus on doing an extreme makeover. Close runway 12/30. That runway is useless. Lower fees.

Whoa!!! Take it easy with the excavation equipment.

Runway 12/30 is an integral part of the ops at MIA. In conjunction with Land and Hold Short (LAHSO), it allows us two independent runways (12 & 9) with ILS capability to arrive on (weather permitting). That's on an East ops. West ops, it works the same with 30 and 26R, but no LAHSO requirement. Only Cargo traffic from Cargo City, Western and Eastern U depart 9. Exceptions being Lufthansa's A388/748 and pilot requests. This allows us to use 8R as a primary departure runway, with no crossing traffic. No, keep 12/30, develop the terminals.

Delays at MIA are non existent due to traffic. Usually, its a thunderstorm that harasses the airport. Miami-Dade Aviation Department (MDAD), sees no reason to lower fees. The airport handles the VAST majority of international traffic as well as cargo in comparison to FLL. MIA will still attract big name carriers with their big runways, zero delays, connection options, and other enticing features. Its these reasons that MDAD will not allow OPF to develop into a mini-FLL. They barely want Cessnas and Pipers to park there...subject to another discussion. I don't believe that MDAD considers FLL competition if you compare their fees.

While FLL is bustling with energy, it is also brimming with delays. Its one runway, and five miles between arrivals; one in one out. At late at night it is usually more exciting than MIA traffic, with a steady stream of late arrivals past 10 pm till 11:30 or so. Runway 10R will definitely add capacity and JBU and other LCC's will certainly take advantage of that.

HST will never develop. Like someone said, maybe P2P. Cargo carriers love MIA, and until MDAD turns them away due to space, they wont turn to HST. At MIA have great access to highways, the port, and parking spots. Even LAN is considering building a maintenance hangar east of the Eastern U.

It will be a very, very long time before these two airports fill to capacity.
 
flymia
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:56 pm

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
It will be a very, very long time before these two airports fill to capacity.

Great insight. Especially from someone from MIA ATC. I agree with everything you said. This is not going to be a problem for a very long time IMO.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
At late at night it is usually more exciting than MIA traffic, with a steady stream of late arrivals past 10 pm till 11:30 or so.

I have noticed this when listening to ATC. FLL sure does get busy around 10pm but that makes sense. MIA has a decent bank of departures at night because it is a hub while FLL gets the flights coming in from hubs. After 12am I would imagine MIA is the busier of the two up until 8am or so with many more cargo flights and the early morning red eyes.
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2travel2know2
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:34 pm

South Eastern Florida's demographics point out that HST Homestead may work as a secondary airport if a deal can be worked with the U.S. Air Force. IMHO, There are some domestic and international routes which may be sustained from that airport.
Other than that region getting another major commercial airport, it seems neither MIA nor FLL will be forced to relocate to a brand new airport.
However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.
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flymia
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:40 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.

It's not likely. It can't happen. The Everglades are protected, period. It would be very difficult to even get something like an airport to border the Everglades outside of the development zone. There is a line which goes in and out and past that line nothing may be developed.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
South Eastern Florida's demographics point out that HST Homestead may work as a secondary airport if a deal can be worked with the U.S. Air Force. IMHO, There are some domestic and international routes which may be sustained from that airport.

I agree that when/if the time comes that FLL and MIA are over capacity the next option would be Homestead.
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cmf
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.

Ignoring environmental issues it has less chance of happening that a new mega airport replacing MIA and FLL somewhere in the developed area between.

TNT died together with B2707. The location was selected to keep the noise from supersonic airplanes away from developed areas. The site has no infrastructure. There is a single road that will cost a fortune to expand. Even so it is cheap compared to the cost of stabilizing the land required to build runways and everything else required. Just bringing out enough electricity is a major undertaking.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:50 pm

Look at the economy, this is such a major infastructure invesment. The government is close to shutting down, no chance of anything this major to happen anytime soon. Its not a bad idea and if aviation demand were booming in a good economy it might be possible but I just can't see it.
 
OB1504
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
Based on the money spent on the last few terminals, the new rental center and the screwed up station placement for the metro rail they need to go into hiding for a few years and let the public get over their incompetence that has cost the tax payers dearly and went way over budget.

How is the location of the airport station "screwed up"? It's going to share a building a county bus terminal, Amtrak, Greyhound, Tri-Rail, and the Rental Car Center, and there's space to put the tracks for the eventual westward extension to Florida International University. Running the train directly to the terminal and dead-ending it there to avoid a transfer to a 3-minute people mover ride would've been a mistake.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
Runway 12/30 is an integral part of the ops at MIA. In conjunction with Land and Hold Short (LAHSO), it allows us two independent runways (12 & 9) with ILS capability to arrive on (weather permitting). That's on an East ops. West ops, it works the same with 30 and 26R, but no LAHSO requirement. Only Cargo traffic from Cargo City, Western and Eastern U depart 9. Exceptions being Lufthansa's A388/748 and pilot requests. This allows us to use 8R as a primary departure runway, with no crossing traffic. No, keep 12/30, develop the terminals.

   Adding terminal capacity but removing a runway is one step forward and two steps back.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
Its these reasons that MDAD will not allow OPF to develop into a mini-FLL. They barely want Cessnas and Pipers to park there...subject to another discussion.

Seriously, what's with MDAD's apparent distaste for light aircraft? The South Florida area is a pilot training mecca and sometimes it's like the county wants to push it all north to Broward.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:51 am

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
Runway 12/30 is an integral part of the ops at MIA. In conjunction with Land and Hold Short (LAHSO), it allows us two independent runways (12 & 9) with ILS capability to arrive on (weather permitting). That's on an East ops. West ops, it works the same with 30 and 26R, but no LAHSO requirement. Only Cargo traffic from Cargo City, Western and Eastern U depart 9. Exceptions being Lufthansa's A388/748 and pilot requests. This allows us to use 8R as a primary departure runway, with no crossing traffic. No, keep 12/30, develop the terminals.

I was using it as an example of future capacity options. Although very expensive (still cheaper than developing a new mega airport) they could add a 4th parallel runway that would run through where the cargo Us are now as well as some of the terminals. The terminals would have to be redeloped centerfield so that would justfiy closing 12/30. Four parallel runways are more efficient than what they have now especially in IFR conditions.

For the record I don't think Miami is anywhere near capacity yet. A lot of it will depend on what happens with AA in the next few years. If AA and US merge and they move a lot of CLT ops to MIA, then maybe it will start getting closer to capacity. MIA right now at times during the day seems almost dead. A lot of that could be fixed with the airport working with AA to move some flights from the peak period to the quieter times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 31):
South Eastern Florida's demographics point out that HST Homestead may work as a secondary airport if a deal can be worked with the U.S. Air Force. IMHO, There are some domestic and international routes which may be sustained from that airport.Other than that region getting another major commercial airport, it seems neither MIA nor FLL will be forced to relocate to a brand new airport.However, TNT Dade-Collier plans to develop as yet another commercial airport in South East Florida, as tiny as it might be, likely would be stopped by environmentalists.

HST I could see maybe Allegiant Air or something like that flying with point to point. I suggested the cargo companies move there. Yeah they may love MIA, but if Miami Dade County takes over HST if the Air Force Decomissions HST (more and more likely with budget cuts and bases closing), they have a nice facility there away from other traffic. If Miami Dade works a deal with the cargo companies by building their facilities on their own dime and offers them a nice incentive to move there, I am sure a lot of the cargo companies would jump on the opportunity.

I don't see any mainline international traffic going to HST. You will never see the likes of TAM, Air France, Alitalia etc moving there. The tourists that come in on those flights rent cars or take cabs to the beach where they stay. Too far of a drive for someone unfamiliar with the area for those that rent cars and cab fare would be horrible. I could possibly see a Thomas Cook, Monach or some other group charter service going there where there would be buses to transport passengers to the beach and it could used as a charter group "Key West Gateway" as well as a gateway to the upper keys like Key Largo, Marathon etc.

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
TNT died together with B2707. The location was selected to keep the noise from supersonic airplanes away from developed areas. The site has no infrastructure. There is a single road that will cost a fortune to expand. Even so it is cheap compared to the cost of stabilizing the land required to build runways and everything else required. Just bringing out enough electricity is a major undertaking.

TNT is way out there. That is a further drive than DEN is from Denver. If that were to be the new airport it would be the furthest main airport from a downtown area. You might as well call it the Naples International Airport (j/k). Tamiami Trail is a 2 lane road that goes by it. It would be an environmental mess that would pretty much destroy the everglades. On top of that, isn't it pretty close to both the Seminole and Miccosukee Reservations?

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 35):
Seriously, what's with MDAD's apparent distaste for light aircraft? The South Florida area is a pilot training mecca and sometimes it's like the county wants to push it all north to Broward.

I think it is a safety issue. That is crowded airspace with both FLL and MIA there. Planes on downwind legs for MIA overfly OPF. How far does MIA Class Bravo Airspace extend? A lot of light GA aircraft between MIA and FLL is setting up for an incident like PSA at SAN or Aeromexico near LAX over dense neighborhoods
 
cmf
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:21 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 36):
TNT is way out there. That is a further drive than DEN is from Denver. If that were to be the new airport it would be the furthest main airport from a downtown area. You might as well call it the Naples International Airport (j/k). Tamiami Trail is a 2 lane road that goes by it. It would be an environmental mess that would pretty much destroy the everglades. On top of that, isn't it pretty close to both the Seminole and Miccosukee Reservations?

As I said, there really isn't any infrastructure to support it. it is definitely out there but of all the problems I guess it is the smallest. Should be about the same distance from Miami Beach as Boca is from MIA. Miccosukee would probably like having all the traffic passing by their casino  
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flyaas80
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:12 am

Quoting LV (Reply 3):
There was a proposal to build an airport in the middle of the Everglades. There is even a runway out where it was supposed to be and a small airport there. It's called the Dade-Collier Training and Transition airport. It is still open as far as I know. Here are the details : http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTNT

I was surprised to see that TNT had a 10,499ft runway! Quite a bit of concrete with a whole lot of nothing else out there. Does anyone have any info as to who utilizes this airport? States that it is closed to the public, but with all the National Park traffic, is it theirs?
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OB1504
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:54 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 36):
I think it is a safety issue. That is crowded airspace with both FLL and MIA there. Planes on downwind legs for MIA overfly OPF. How far does MIA Class Bravo Airspace extend? A lot of light GA aircraft between MIA and FLL is setting up for an incident like PSA at SAN or Aeromexico near LAX over dense neighborhoods

Then again, with Mode C transponders being mandatory for all aircraft flying into and out of OPF, plus advances in TCAS and ADS-B, it's not the same.

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 38):
I was surprised to see that TNT had a 10,499ft runway! Quite a bit of concrete with a whole lot of nothing else out there. Does anyone have any info as to who utilizes this airport? States that it is closed to the public, but with all the National Park traffic, is it theirs?

It's owned and operated by the Miami-Dade Aviation Department. It's primarily used for flight training, but aircraft planning on landing there must make prior arrangements. I've shot a few practice approaches there since it has the only NDB approach in the greater Miami area.
 
cmf
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:24 am

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 38):
I was surprised to see that TNT had a 10,499ft runway! Quite a bit of concrete with a whole lot of nothing else out there. Does anyone have any info as to who utilizes this airport? States that it is closed to the public, but with all the National Park traffic, is it theirs?

I was built when they thought supersonic flights would take over passenger traffic. TNT was the solution to avoid the noise problem. When supersonic flights folded so did TNT.
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mia305
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:04 am

I really don't see it happening MIA is in a prime locations and so is FLL
both are close to the cruise ports major transit stations.......etc.

As mentioned above HST will not change I don't see cargo companies moving there
for the simple fact that its to far of a drive to move the freight. I can possibly see HST
being like SWF targeting the population in that area and upper keys and keep it a reserve
installation.

You can foget building in the Everglades it is protected and there's no way the state
gov't and environmentalists will allow it.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):

How can I say this tactfully? The area around OPF is far from being in the top rankings of South Florida or for that matter the entire Sunshine State's toniest neighborhoods. So unless one is going to develop public housing or displace the locals and gentrify the area, OPF will still be in business. It wouldn't be a bad alternative but not a replacement for FLL and MIA. I could imagine a LCC setting up shop at OPF if allowed. OPF with commercial service would be akin to ACY.

And as others have said back in the late 60's their was the grandoise Florida Regional Jet Port. This would have served the then up and coming supersonic aviation boom which never was. And with environmental issues, now there's just that runway out there in gatorland. This would have also affected or eliminated the Big Cypress Swamp.

Regarding high fees at MIA it seems like AA corners that market and keeps others out. I still hold hope we WN/FL will break into MIA. There's enough business for us and them in additon to FLL. I hope we and MIA can make a sweet deal so we can start MIA service sooner rather than later.
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cmf
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
How can I say this tactfully? The area around OPF is far from being in the top rankings of South Florida or for that matter the entire Sunshine State's toniest neighborhoods.

When did Miami Lakes become that bad?   Also, things change. It isn't long ago you couldn't get people to drive thru midtown middle of the day. Now people pay good money to live there.
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zippyjet
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):

I forgot who told me but, they were a Miami Beach resident and born in the Miami area and said the area around OPF was one of the bad areas of town. I could swear that it had been mentioned several times and recent regarding this area being not the greatest. I learn something new each day.

When you refer to Midtown are you talking about the areas around Biscayne Blvd and Flagler St. near the cruise ship entrance to the Port of Miami?

What are your thoughts about OPF having passenger traffic? Not as a replacement to MIA or FLL but a third alternative?
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mia305
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:00 am

I have to agree with zippyjet. I've lived I'm Miami pretty much all my life
and I can say that the area around OPF is not the nicest, cleanest areas.
It has a very high crime and drug rate in the area. There's no way commercial
service will ever begin at the airport not even as a reliver airport. That would
cost way to much to clean up and redevelop the area around OPF.
 
flymia
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting mia305 (Reply 45):
There's no way commercial
service will ever begin at the airport not even as a reliver airport. That would
cost way to much to clean up and redevelop the area around OPF.

Since when do commercial airports need to be in good neighborhoods?

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
When did Miami Lakes become that bad?

Miami Lakes is close to OPF but the area directly surrounding OPF is not that great. It is not the worst area in town, maybe because the airport is there but a few blocks the wrong way and it gets bad.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
When you refer to Midtown are you talking about the areas around Biscayne Blvd and Flagler St. near the cruise ship entrance to the Port of Miami?

Nope, Midtown is on Biscayne but more north. 20th street or so and 36th street. It is completely different than it was 7 years ago.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
What are your thoughts about OPF having passenger traffic? Not as a replacement to MIA or FLL but a third alternative?

I just don't see the need for it, at least for a few decades.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
How can I say this tactfully? The area around OPF is far from being in the top rankings of South Florida or for that matter the entire Sunshine State's toniest neighborhoods. So unless one is going to develop public housing or displace the locals and gentrify the area, OPF will still be in business. It wouldn't be a bad alternative but not a replacement for FLL and MIA. I could imagine a LCC setting up shop at OPF if allowed. OPF with commercial service would be akin to ACY.

I know this is brought up later by cmf. The area west of Opa Locka is Miami Lakes, which is a very nice area. You tell them they are getting commercial service at OPF you can bet they will be up in arms. Commercial aircraft mean "noise" even though most commercial aircraft now would be quieter than a lot of the biz jet traffic that flies to OPF (there are a lot of Gulfstream IIs,IIIs, Lear 25s and even some Lockheed Jetstars there). It doesn't matter because commercial traffic always means "noise"


However, you are partially right Zippy - 37th Avenue is the road you come in on to go to Opa Locka, that goes by housing projects. The area east of Opa Locka is Miami Gardens (formerly known as Caroll City) and the actual city of Opa Locka - and that isn't exactly the nicest area around Florida either.

There are a lot of things to ponder at OPF.

You would have to upgrade it to Part 139 standards. You have the runways for it and stuff. Where do you set up the terminal? or would one of the 3 FBOs act as a terminal?

Most of all the LCCs are flying to FLL. There is much better access from I-95/I-595/US-1. The freeway does not go directly by Opa Locka. There is the Palmetto Expressway about a mile north, which connects you to both I-95 and I-75. I don't know if you ever been on 37th Avenue anytime after 2pm near the Palmetto Freeway but the traffic is terrible there and it isn't exactly a busy area. The whole intersection sucks between the traffic lights there and the entrance to St. Thomas University nearby. Add more traffic from a commercial airport now, you have a mess. They would have to do a lot of work on 37th like widen it, make it safer as well as improve the look around there (I am not trying to run down the ghetto, but does Miami want this for a first impression when out of town people arrive?)

Unless they put the entrance on the west side of Opa Locka from the Miami Lakes side where there is room for development.

Another factor is the proximity of the airports. You are talking a matter of about 5 miles to MIA and another 5-6 to FLL. It is an area already overcrowded with commercial traffic, adding more will be an ATC and approach control nightmare. MIA traffic overflies OPF regularly. I am sure aircraft departing OPFnow have to stay below a certain level due to MIA and FLL overflies. It is easy to do with biz jets and props and the occassional commercial size aircraft that is going to OPF for paint/maintenance or to be scrapped, but regularly scheduled flights would be another

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
I still hold hope we WN/FL will break into MIA. There's enough business for us and them in additon to FLL. I hope we and MIA can make a sweet deal so we can start MIA service sooner rather than later.

I take it you work for Southwest

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
When did Miami Lakes become that bad? Also, things change. It isn't long ago you couldn't get people to drive thru midtown middle of the day. Now people pay good money to live there.

I think he was refering to the actual Opa Locka City and Miami Gardens east of the airport, which isn't exactly known for its luxury homes.
 
cmf
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
I forgot who told me but, they were a Miami Beach resident and born in the Miami area and said the area around OPF was one of the bad areas of town. I could swear that it had been mentioned several times and recent regarding this area being not the greatest. I learn something new each day.

NASCARAirforce broke it down pretty well. Opa Locka (city) is usually rated worst in Miami-Dade and Miami Gardens is just a snippet better. I've always thought of Miami Gardens to start north of 826 so I don't think it is bordering the airport. If it is then it is on the north side and that area is actually pretty good with a nice enough residential area, a school and a business area.

Opa locka is on the east side and as said multiple times it is nothing to be happy about. The south side is mostly industrial.

Miami Lakes is on the west side and it is nice. Anyone Developing the airport would use that name. Remember this is a place where any piece of water next to a house is labeled a lake. They know what to call things  
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
When you refer to Midtown are you talking about the areas around Biscayne Blvd and Flagler St. near the cruise ship entrance to the Port of Miami?

Midtown is close to Biscayne bay just south of i195. It was really run down. When I came to Miami the first time we had an office on 36th street and everyone had to be out before sunset. The new shopping mall (prob 5 years now) is just south of 36th and it together with the art in Wynwood turned the area around. The Design district is north if i195.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
What are your thoughts about OPF having passenger traffic? Not as a replacement to MIA or FLL but a third alternative?

I don't see it. It is too close to both MIA and FLL and would require a lot of money to make it useful and even so it would be a single runway operation. The money would do a lot more at MIA or FLL and no-one will think twice about the drive.

If MIA and FLL somehow reach their capacity limit then look at PBI first and HST second.
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: One Airport For MIA/FLL

Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:45 am

After reading this thread it would appear to me that the only best option is to keep MIA as the the main airport.

Quoting MIADeparture (Reply 29):
It will be a very, very long time before these two airports fill to capacity.

I agree, but once/if that day comes MIA should be the main focus of the city, county, and state even at any expense of FLL.

Once a predetermined traffic threshold is reached , maybe MIA should begin purchasing property north of the airport bordered by Okeechobee Rd, 36th St, and 67th Ave similar to what LAX did with Surfridge.

Im not sure what is meant by capacity in this discussion, but clearing half of that triangle would open enough space for two additional east-west runways. Emptying the entire area will free up space for a new north terminal plus hangars.
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