kilauea717
Topic Author
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The Future Of KLM And SXM

Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:04 pm

After KLM retires the 747-400 and the MD-11 is entirely gone, what will they most likely use on AMS-SXM? What would make the most sense on this route?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting kilauea717 (Thread starter):
After KLM retires the 747-400 and the MD-11 is entirely gone, what will they most likely use on AMS-SXM? What would make the most sense on this route?

I'm assuming the a330-300 will make it to SXM. I believe it is the replacement for the MD-11 in the Caribbean.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
oly720man
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 1):
I'm assuming the a330-300 will make it to SXM

It makes it to ATL which is slightly further.

It's got 100 fewer seats than the B744, though.

The 77W would be a seat-for-seat replacement or thereabouts.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:01 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 2):
The 77W would be a seat-for-seat replacement or thereabouts.

But I don't think the 77W can make it off of SXM's runway. Maybe they could increase frequency to pick up the difference in seatage.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:54 pm

The runway isn't long to be sure but why couldn't the 77W make it? The 774ER isn't exactly a short field beast and does fine so would the 77W take too many penalties?
 
76er
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:12 pm

AFAIK all KL flights that depart SXM continue on the one of the southern Antilles requiring not much fuel and therefore not much runway either.
 
DFWHeavy
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:28 pm

It isn't the runway length, but the engine out performance that becomes the issue with the terrain.

I have flown IAH-NRT and LAX-ICN on the 77E and 744 respectively and the flight times were 14 hours and 12:45, which are both longer than SXM-Europe and we got off the runway in 7,000 ft of runway...and i will bet both were derated takeoffs.
Christopher W Slovacek
 
kl838
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:18 am

If the flight would be non-stop SXM - AMS, I would assume they would use a smaller aircraft like A330 as Air Caraibes currently does with its SXM - ORY flight. I remember a long time ago when the MD-11 used to fly non-stop to Amsterdam in addition to the 744 triangle route. You never know, it could be possible for the 789 to replace the 747 on this route.

It would be interesting to see whether or not Air France would put the A350 on this route after the A343s have left the fleet. Those birds are getting very tired on the inside and I usually tend to avoid them.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:56 am

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 6):
I have flown IAH-NRT and LAX-ICN on the 77E and 744 respectively

The IAH to NRT segment would be flown by a GE90 equipped 77E, definitely not derated   I hear the pilots do enjoy gunning those engines lol.

The engine out issue at SXM could indeed prevent the 77W from flying this route though I'd appreciate an engineer or pilot weighing in. It's well under the 77W's range so the a/c won't necessarily be at MTOW from that field.
 
crownvic
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:35 am

Quoting kl838 (Reply 7):
It would be interesting to see whether or not Air France would put the A350 on this route after the A343s have left the fleet. Those birds are getting very tired on the inside and I usually tend to avoid them.

Several months back, I was on an AFR A343 DTW-CDG and the a/c was very nice inside, so perhaps it depends what a/c you get. I flew back on a AFR A380 CDG-LAX and the a/c was in far worse shape interior wise than the A343.
 
DTWSXM
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:39 am

IIRC the only wide body that can make the flight from SXM to Europe without a technical stop is the A340. All others cannot make the climb and turn with full fuel and play load. If there is something other than the A-340 I am happy to be corrected.

Cheers!
Chris
Sláinte
 
slcguy
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:50 am

For SXM it's probably engine out performance over runway length for most aircraft.
Twin engine B737/A320 going to other Carribean or US mainland some minor weight restrictions might be needed. B757 probably no restrictions to US.
4 engine wide body B747/A340, some weight restrictions or fuel stop needed for trans Atlantic.
2 engine wide body B767/B777/A330 become a real balancing act on weight with an engine out between short runway length, climb performance and range on trans Atlantic.
 
factsonly
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:51 am

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 3):
But I don't think the 77W can make it off of SXM's runway. Maybe they could increase frequency to pick up the difference in seatage.

KLM operates AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS 3x weekly with B744 in all passenger configuration, seating 415 pax. As the departure from SXM is just for the short hop to CUR (for crew change, cleaning and catering), the airline has no major engine-out performance issues from the SXM runway.

In the past KLM has operated AMS-SXM-AMS non-stop both ways with MD11, but did this not last for very long. Most likely a combination of runway/climb performance and commercial loads led to the decision to re-introduce the intermediate stop in CUR.

If / when demand for AMS-SXM-AMS improves and aircraft performance so permits, KLM could consider operating SXM either:
- (1) at a higher frequency with a smaller airframe (A332 or A333) - non-stop with payload penalty or via CUR
- (2) at the same / higher frequency with B77W with 425 seats via CUR.
- (3) non-stop both ways aircraft performance permitting.
- (4) SXM could also be combined with either BON or AUA, as an alternative to CUR if loads so require.
 
A388
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:54 pm

As someone asked here, it will be interesting to see what aircraft AF will use when their A343's are phased out. Seeing that only twin engine aircraft will be available (777/332/359) I see them combining SXM with PTP or FDF in the same way that KL combines SXM with CUR. This to my knowledge will allow less weight on those twin engined aircraft as it will be refueled in PTP for the continuation to Paris.


A388
 
LJ
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting kilauea717 (Thread starter):
After KLM retires the 747-400 and the MD-11 is entirely gone, what will they most likely use on AMS-SXM? What would make the most sense on this route?

I think the answer is anything that KL will order (or lease) to replace these aircraft. It can be the 77W (not likely), 779, 787-10, A35J and even 748i. AF/KL haven't ordered or leased anything which will replace the current KL 747 fleet, though rumours are that they would be gone by 2030 (one lease, though combi, has recently been extended until 2023).
 
nicode
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting kl838 (Reply 7):
I would assume they would use a smaller aircraft like A330 as Air Caraibes currently does with its SXM - ORY fligh

This is not correct. The Air Caraibes flight to SXM continues to PTP (or FDF).
The only direct flight to Europe from SXM is the AF flight.
 
aarbee
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 9):
Several months back, I was on an AFR A343 DTW-CDG and the a/c was very nice inside, so perhaps it depends what a/c you get.

My flight from CDG-AUH on F-GLZS was dump of A343

R
Love the AIXes
 
Azure
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 13):
As someone asked here, it will be interesting to see what aircraft AF will use when their A343's are phased out. Seeing that only twin engine aircraft will be available (777/332/359) I see them combining SXM with PTP or FDF in the same way that KL combines SXM with CUR. This to my knowledge will allow less weight on those twin engined aircraft as it will be refueled in PTP for the continuation to Paris.

I doubt it. ORY-PTP and ORY-FDF are operated by AF with daily 77Ws in COI configuration (468 seats), with load factors above 85%. What kind of equipment should AF send to take on the added traffic from the stop at SXM ? Even an A380 (in their current configuration) would not suffice (let alone SXM may not be A380-compatible...) Furthermore this stop at SXM would make AF flights to PTP and FDF commercially unviable against its competitors (Air Caraibes, Corsair and XL Airways).



Quoting factsonly (Reply 12):
If / when demand for AMS-SXM-AMS improves and aircraft performance so permits, KLM could consider operating SXM either:
- (1) at a higher frequency with a smaller airframe (A332 or A333) - non-stop with payload penalty or via CUR
- (2) at the same / higher frequency with B77W with 425 seats via CUR.
- (3) non-stop both ways aircraft performance permitting.
- (4) SXM could also be combined with either BON or AUA, as an alternative to CUR if loads so require.

Good analysis. Certainly AFKL would prefer to keep SXM ops direct both ways. It would be interesting to know if either the A389s and B787s on order could take off from SXM without a payload penalty.
 
A388
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:48 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
Quoting A388 (Reply 13):
As someone asked here, it will be interesting to see what aircraft AF will use when their A343's are phased out. Seeing that only twin engine aircraft will be available (777/332/359) I see them combining SXM with PTP or FDF in the same way that KL combines SXM with CUR. This to my knowledge will allow less weight on those twin engined aircraft as it will be refueled in PTP for the continuation to Paris.

I doubt it. ORY-PTP and ORY-FDF are operated by AF with daily 77Ws in COI configuration (468 seats), with load factors above 85%. What kind of equipment should AF send to take on the added traffic from the stop at SXM ? Even an A380 (in their current configuration) would not suffice (let alone SXM may not be A380-compatible...) Furthermore this stop at SXM would make AF flights to PTP and FDF commercially unviable against its competitors (Air Caraibes, Corsair and XL Airways).

You know, after writing my post I was thinking what you say here so your view is well taken. There is really no other option to keep flying it nonstop on a 777 I'm guessing...

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
Good analysis. Certainly AFKL would prefer to keep SXM ops direct both ways. It would be interesting to know if either the A389s and B787s on order could take off from SXM without a payload penalty.

I think all twin engined aircraft will have to fly to SXM with payload penalties, even the A350/789. The problem is the shorter runway combined with the engine out situation. Unless... the A350/789 engines are that powerful that they can take-off fully loaded on one engine from SXM which I doubt. Who knows, I stand corrected if I'm not seeing this correctly.

A388
 
LJ
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:51 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
Good analysis. Certainly AFKL would prefer to keep SXM ops direct both ways. It would be interesting to know if either the A389s and B787s on order could take off from SXM without a payload penalty.

Even if KL would have an aircraft able to fly nonstop from SXM to AMS they won't do it. It's commercially not interesting and even now SXM shares a 744 with CUR. Moreover, should there be a market, then ArkeFly will start SXM (also in combination with BON, AUA or CUR). However, I don't see why SXM would become popular amongst the Dutch.
 
kl838
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting nicode (Reply 15):
This is not correct. The Air Caraibes flight to SXM continues to PTP (or FDF).
The only direct flight to Europe from SXM is the AF flight.

Actually it is correct:




Taken from the Air Caraibes website, at first I thought it wasn't true until I was proven wrong as well.

Quoting LJ (Reply 19):
Even if KL would have an aircraft able to fly nonstop from SXM to AMS they won't do it. It's commercially not interesting and even now SXM shares a 744 with CUR. Moreover, should there be a market, then ArkeFly will start SXM (also in combination with BON, AUA or CUR). However, I don't see why SXM would become popular amongst the Dutch.

It is said that SXM is marketing hard in The Netherlands to attract more Dutch tourists, but a lot of the passengers are also transfer passengers from elsewhere in the world. Not to mention being a hub for the Caribbean a lot of people from the surrounding islands use SXM and AF/KL to get to Europe or Asia.
 
A388
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:37 pm

kl838,

The number of transfers in SXM from the Caribbean is very small. Probably only those few who live in Saba, St. Eustatia, Anguilla and maybe St. Barths use SXM for flights to Europe. Let's not even talk about Asia traffic (how big is that really?). PTP, FDF, ANU, BGI, POS, SJU, SDQ, KIN, MBJ all have there own flights to Europe and even more flights to chose from so SXM really only caters to a very small part of Caribbean people going to Europe.

A388
 
kl838
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 21):
kl838,

The number of transfers in SXM from the Caribbean is very small. Probably only those few who live in Saba, St. Eustatia, Anguilla and maybe St. Barths use SXM for flights to Europe. Let's not even talk about Asia traffic (how big is that really?). PTP, FDF, ANU, BGI, POS, SJU, SDQ, KIN, MBJ all have there own flights to Europe and even more flights to chose from so SXM really only caters to a very small part of Caribbean people going to Europe.

SXM actually has a lot larger transfer traffic than you might think. Saba, Statia, Anguilla, St. Barths, St. Kitts, Nevis all use SXM as a hub. Sure St. Kitts has British Airways flights, but there are still a lot more people that transfer due to cheaper prices.

As for Asia traffic, both SXM and St. Kitts have a large Indian population, and SXM also has a very large Chinese population as well. All that fly to and from Asia during peak holiday periods, using AF-KL. I am not too sure about the other islands but are there is a large Asian population in SXM hence the need for connecting through Europe. I think they are even currently discussing with Air Berlin to start flights to the island, therefore the demand is clearly there. Don't forget as well the entire half of the island is French and most of them fly to and from France multiple times a year. So no its not just a very small part of Caribbean people going to Europe.
 
goldorak
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 17):
I doubt it. ORY-PTP and ORY-FDF are operated by AF with daily 77Ws in COI configuration (468 seats), with load factors above 85%. What kind of equipment should AF send to take on the added traffic from the stop at SXM ? Even an A380 (in their current configuration) would not suffice (let alone SXM may not be A380-compatible...) Furthermore this stop at SXM would make AF flights to PTP and FDF commercially unviable against its competitors (Air Caraibes, Corsair and XL Airways).

I fully agree with you. There will never be a stop in FDF or PTP. In case AF cannot operate anymore SXM non-stop to CDG (due to a lack of appropriate equipment after the retirement of the A343), I'm pretty sure that we will go back to a stop in SDQ (as when AF was flying to SXM/SDQ with a B747) or Punta Cana.
 
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Aesma
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:22 pm

What about buying almost free A345s to replace the 343s used on the route ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LO231
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:07 am

77W would be my bet....
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
 
goldorak
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:14 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
What about buying almost free A345s to replace the 343s used on the route ?

AF will never buy another type of aircraft (even if almost free) just to fly to SXM. Either they can still fly there with what they have, in satisfactory economic conditions, or they will simply stop to fly there and let KL fly the route (or they will have a code-share with another airline from PTP/FDF/SDQ). SXM is not "strategic" to AF and can be dropped at any time, unfortunately.
 
A388
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:38 pm

Quoting kl838 (Reply 22):
As for Asia traffic, both SXM and St. Kitts have a large Indian population, and SXM also has a very large Chinese population as well. All that fly to and from Asia during peak holiday periods, using AF-KL. I am not too sure about the other islands but are there is a large Asian population in SXM hence the need for connecting through Europe. I think they are even currently discussing with Air Berlin to start flights to the island, therefore the demand is clearly there. Don't forget as well the entire half of the island is French and most of them fly to and from France multiple times a year. So no its not just a very small part of Caribbean people going to Europe.

Again, there is a Chinese population in SXM and Indian too but it isn't that large. It might be large for you but not for an airline like AF/KL.

A388
 
LGA777
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:13 pm

I apologize it this is a silly question but I am curious. The few times I have flown on an A-340-200/300 or watched one take off they seem to need the most runway to get airborne and take the longest time in seconds to do the same of any other Airbus or Boeing. So despite them having 4 engines I am actually surprised they can do non-stop SXM-CDG off not only SXM's short runway but with the mountains at the end of the runway. Does AF weight restrict them that significantly to make it work? I would think any model of the 777 would need less runway and or less restrictions. Thanks in advance for intelligent replies.

Cheers

LGA777
 
Azure
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:12 pm

Quoting goldorak (Reply 26):
SXM is not "strategic" to AF and can be dropped at any time, unfortunately.

I am afraid you're right. Actually the France to Caribbean market is turning into a blood bath. The arrival of a 4th operator (XL Airways) on the PAR-PTP and PAR-FDF routes resulted in a price war that has implications as far as PUJ. Now I do not know how SXM is doing but I guess it is at least marginally impacted as well.

Source : http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...s-intensifie-sur-les-antilles.html
 
guyanam
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 18):

You can add SKB/NEV and EIS to the islands using SXM for intransits to Europe (aside from the UK of course) . But I agree the numbers are quite small. The Euro tourists to those islands (Italians, French, German, Dutch) are but a few thousand per year, mainly the sailor crowd to EIS. Indeed the LI flight to SXM that arrives early afternoon seems to accommodate decent numbers disembarking in SXM. But then some are off to North America.

I think that between SKB and NEV there may be around 2,000 Indians...most likely to be Guyanese, so I agree that the Indian (and increasing Chinese) populations on those islands will not make a dent on an airline which must feel seats 3X week 12 months of the year.
 
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Aesma
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 28):
I apologize it this is a silly question but I am curious. The few times I have flown on an A-340-200/300 or watched one take off they seem to need the most runway to get airborne and take the longest time in seconds to do the same of any other Airbus or Boeing. So despite them having 4 engines I am actually surprised they can do non-stop SXM-CDG off not only SXM's short runway but with the mountains at the end of the runway. Does AF weight restrict them that significantly to make it work? I would think any model of the 777 would need less runway and or less restrictions. Thanks in advance for intelligent replies.

Cheers

LGA777

Well the A340 is a long range aircraft, so for SXM-CDG it wouldn't be close to MTOW, I doubt there's that much cargo from SXM. Then, the performance of twins when all engines are turning is that of a pony car, since you have two engines each able to get the plane off the ground at MTOW. On a quad of the same size you only need 1,25X such (single) engine power to get the same performance in an engine out situation, and in practice you put a bit more, say 1,5X, so when you lose one out of four engines, you still get 1,125X the power of a twin on a single engine, and that thrust is less asymmetrical.

In most cases you will see airplanes take-off at flex power so any quad will appear slow because they don't need to rev up the engines as much as twins.

Also Airbus wings are very different from Boeing wings and that plays a role in the attitude of aircraft on take-off (not on time to climb).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LO231
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RE: The Future Of KLM And SXM

Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 31):

Funny you said that.... I think when I flew CDG-MIA.... 340 took ages to take off, and after 15 mins we were still at 5kms.... So slow..... They brought champagne in economy before reaching cruising altitude....
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU

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