mhkansan
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ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:28 am

Politics aside, what happens when the government shuts down with regards to US air traffic controllers? Will the nation's airspace grind to a halt, or is the FAA already funded through some emergency savings for a couple days?

I heard a commentator on a certain network say good riddance the government won't be operating - everything's a waste of money, etc... Well, my job's kind of out the window if the planes can't get clearance to take off and land.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:35 am

My understanding is that all essential government operations are still run. ATC is under that banner, along with law enforcement, and the military. What exactly is run I am not sure. But I'm 99.9% sure that the Air Traffic Control system will operate as normal.
Pat
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goboeing
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:36 am

I would honestly be okay with just having all airports everywhere be an uncontrolled airport and just fly all the way up into the flight levels of class A airspace using TCAS and visual reference to avoid other airplanes. It'd be a lot of fun for a few days! No separation rules, fly a mile behind another plane on landing, no waiting for another plane to clear the runway, just make sure they're really far up there, etc. Takeoff 10 seconds after someone else as long as it's not larger than your own plane, and so on. I bet it'd be almost just as safe anyway. Let's do it!
 
Mir
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:44 am

During the last government shutdown, ATC get hit hard. Planes still flew, but delays were extensive, particularly into congested areas as the facilities didn't have the staffing they needed. This got rectified very quickly, as Congress didn't want to have to deal with those delays on their flights home for vacation.

Thus, I would doubt that there will be any issues this time around.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:52 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
During the last government shutdown, ATC get hit hard. Planes still flew, but delays were extensive, particularly into congested areas as the facilities didn't have the staffing they needed. This got rectified very quickly, as Congress didn't want to have to deal with those delays on their flights home for vacation.

Thus, I would doubt that there will be any issues this time around.

Are you thinking of the sequester from earlier this year? That's an entirely different thing from a government shutdown.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
 
Mir
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:58 am

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 4):
Are you thinking of the sequester from earlier this year? That's an entirely different thing from a government shutdown.

I was, and you're correct that it's different, but I still don't think there will be any noticeable effect.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
bohica
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:18 am

The first thing that should happen if the government shuts down is to close DCA. That alone should be enough incentive for Congress to get off their butts and do whatever is necessary to avoid a shutdown.
 
blueflyer
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:39 am

Apparently, under the DOT's plan, a third of all FAA employees will be labelled non-essential and furloughed. This will affect mostly administrative employees and ATC staffing will remain at current levels (including support positions) but the Office of Aviation Safety will be all but shut down, operating with little more than 10% of its usual staff.

Airport inspections and medical certifications will continue, but audits and inspection of other facilities and background investigations will be suspended.

If the shutdown lasts more than 2 weeks, the DOT plans to gradually bring back up to 3,000 more FAA employees whose function can be considered non-essential for only a limited amount of time.
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wagz
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:13 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):

We'll be here but supposedly not getting paid. I'm thrilled at that prospect.

As far as sequester goes that threat reappears in a couple months and is separate from the current govt shutdown.
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STT757
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:36 am

Non essential Government employees are furloughed, essential (law enforcement, ATC, military etc..) have to go to work but are not payed (they will be paid retroactively when Government resumes normal operations).
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krsw757
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:27 pm

From what I've been hearing the only ATC people that could be affected would be trainees not certified on anything. So training will stop and they will be furloughed. Again this is just what people here are saying and may not be true.
 
blueflyer
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting wagz (Reply 8):
We'll be here but supposedly not getting paid. I'm thrilled at that prospect.

Supposedly wages will be paid back once the shutdown ends, if Congress makes it so... I wouldn't want to be in your shoes though.

Quoting krsw757 (Reply 11):
From what I've been hearing the only ATC people that could be affected would be trainees not certified on anything.

Correct.
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LONGisland89
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:47 pm

Have any of you ATC guys heard about when the academy will come back online? A few weeks ago I heard something about RTF ramping back up in October and tower in November. Now I'm hearing no new classes till January.
 
flymia
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:26 pm

As others have said ATC will be fine. Essential employees are a lot of people. Armed Forces, Intelligence, Law Enforcement, National Weather Service, FEMA, TSA, will all be up and running. Things that get shut down are things like secretaries and admin staff at the FAA or FBI, the GSA, EPA, Dept of Education, Library of Congress, National Parks...

Federal courts remain open for at least a few weeks.

So I wouldn't expect many problems if any. Does suck that ATC won't be paid but I doubt it will last longer than a week. Only time will tell, and they will all get their pay checks retroactively.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
silentbob
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Federal courts remain open for at least a few weeks.

Hopefully this doesn't end up impacting the US/AA merger case.
 
N62NA
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:37 pm

Just a nit: It's being incorrectly reported as a "Government Shutdown" - it is not, as the conversation in this thread indicates.
 
atct
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
but are not payed

I was told this morning that us ATC'ers are under exempted status, aka we go to work and get paid. We can't legally work traffic without being paid. As far as staff, they're on furlough. Now as I am on leave at the end of the month, if nothing changes, its Leave Without Pay or Furlough status for my of vacation. I can choose to come to work and be paid, or take my leave as furlough. Caribbean here I come!
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mhkansan
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:17 am

And so tonight, it is done.

Hopefully everything will run smoothly tomorrow. So far as aviation is concerned, this is going better than the sequester so far.
 
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STT757
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:32 pm

[

Quoting atct (Reply 16):
I was told this morning that us ATC'ers are under exempted status, aka we go to work and get paid.



No you guys, along with Federal Law enforcement, military etc.. are "excepted".

Meaning you still go to work and will not be paid until the Government resumes normal operations. That could be before the next pay period or that could be a month from now. The pay period just ended, you should have been paid this weekend, meaning if the Government resumes normal operations before the next pay period your next pay will not be affected. However if this continues into the next pay period (or further) then you will not be paid. Whenever this crisis is resolved, also the Debt ceiling, the pay will resume.

Federal workers who are "excepted" will continue to work, however they will not be paid until the first pay period after the Government resumes normal operations. That pay will include retro-active pay for the period workers came to work during the Goverment shut-down.

Also all leave has been cancelled, scheduled, sick etc.. If you call out sick or take a scheduled vacation you will be placed into LWOP or furlogh status and will not be paid for those days when Government resumes normal operations.

I hope that cleared things up, your Unions and Executive staff should have briefed you yesterday,
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krsw757
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):

Thanks for clarifying, I worked last night here at jax center and we weren't told anything.
 
N62NA
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:47 pm

So... are there any horrendous amount of delays today?
 
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STT757
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
So... are there any horrendous amount of delays today?



Why should there be, no air traffic controlers were furloghed.
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rickabone
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:55 pm

The FAA is far from fully funded, but in this case there is a separation between 'essential' and 'non-essential' employees and services. We (ATC) are considered essential so we must show up to work, but the people who process our pay are considered non-essential so we wouldn't get paid if this lasts more than a week or two. Also, though some of the Tech Ops staff (those who maintain and fix the system) are considered essential, they are only essential for fixing things when in breaks, not for continuing maintenance or upkeep so projects will get delayed and that adds to cost.
 
mmedford
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting rickabone (Reply 22):
Also, though some of the Tech Ops staff (those who maintain and fix the system) are considered essential, they are only essential for fixing things when in breaks, not for continuing maintenance or upkeep so projects will get delayed and that adds to cost.

Excuse me?

Preventative MX & Corrective MX goes hand in hand...also what you are unaware of; is that the systems (the displays, voiceswitches, radars, etc..) you use require periodic certifications. Without it; it will be removed from the NAS.
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KLASM83
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 12):
Have any of you ATC guys heard about when the academy will come back online? A few weeks ago I heard something about RTF ramping back up in October and tower in November. Now I'm hearing no new classes till January.

I've been hearing the same thing. Woo, the line gets longer and longer!
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BA677
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
I would honestly be okay with just having all airports everywhere be an uncontrolled airport and just fly all the way up into the flight levels of class A airspace using TCAS and visual reference to avoid other airplanes. It'd be a lot of fun for a few days! No separation rules, fly a mile behind another plane on landing, no waiting for another plane to clear the runway, just make sure they're really far up there, etc. Takeoff 10 seconds after someone else as long as it's not larger than your own plane, and so on. I bet it'd be almost just as safe anyway. Let's do it!

Lol,    

What have you been taking? Can I have some 

And what about the little planes, if there are no controllers to watch and or help them. After a while I bet they will start to enter class B and get in the way for that short cut.
 
N62NA
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 21):
Why should there be, no air traffic controlers were furloghed.

Well... according to MSNBC a few days ago, there were going to be "big delays!" But then again, it was MSNBC.  
 
krsw757
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:03 pm

From an ATC standpoint there shouldn't be any delays from this since all of us are still working, just not being paid.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:51 pm

Not directly ATC related, but Jetblue is not able to take delivery of their first A321. I wonder if no US airlines can take delivery of any new planes while the US government is shut down, how many new planes will pile up undelivered?
 
mmedford
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 28):

Not directly ATC related, but Jetblue is not able to take delivery of their first A321. I wonder if no US airlines can take delivery of any new planes while the US government is shut down, how many new planes will pile up undelivered?

The people that handles the paperwork for aircraft registrations aren't there...not the end of the world.
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tommytoyz
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting mmedford (Reply 29):
The people that handles the paperwork for aircraft registrations aren't there...not the end of the world.

Manufacturers won't deliver nor get paid. If this goes on a month or more, there will be a lot of new planes parked.
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:34 pm

I'll add some clarity.

Since Tuesday Oct. 1, Controllers have been officially Air Traffic Control Volunteers. So long as the government is "shut down," we work but don't get paid. No pay check.

They (who ever that is) informs us we can expect back-pay. But when the agency does back-pay, it's at their leisure, when convenient, if it's even remembered, and if it's done correctly the first time. Back-pay sometimes takes a year +.

That being said I'll make two points:

-Only because of the dedication and professionalism of Controllers has been no effect on the system. We plug-in & move traffic, paid or not.

-During this crap, all "non-essential" employees have been furlough. But, as I just pointed out, the system is running. This makes us Controllers wonder why in the hell "non-essential" employees exist in the first place.
 
LONGisland89
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 31):
This makes us Controllers wonder why in the hell "non-essential" employees exist in the first place.

Without "non-essential" employees, you'd have no one prepared in the pipeline to replace you when you retire.
 
krsw757
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RE: ATC Services In The Wake Of Government Shutdown

Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:40 pm

Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 31):

Couldn't have said it better myself.