iowaman
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:21 am

Due to length part three was archived and part four started.

Previous thread: Any Cseries Updates? Part 3 (by iowaman Aug 21 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
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KarelXWB
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:12 am

A statement from Bombardier:

Quote:
FTV1 Reaches New Heights

CSeries FTV1 took to the skies yet again, just two days after its follow-up test flight on Oct. 1. Today’s four-hour flight took FTV1 to new heights as the flight crew expanded the performance envelope to reach an altitude of just over 7,620 metres (25,000 feet), at speeds of Mach 0.60 (740 km/h) near Mirabel, Québec.

“The test flight today was helpful in demonstrating the performance of the aircraft at higher altitudes and going forward, we will be combining our flight tests with activities on the ground as we further validate systems data at our CIASTA (CSeries Integrated Aircraft Systems Test Area) where we expect to compare tests and ready the systems for further in-flight analysis,” said Rob Dewar, Vice President and General Manager, CSeries Program.
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PHX787
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:15 am

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 1):
Shouldn't we change the title to something along the lines of :"CSeries flight testing and production thread"?

Third in agreement here. Remove the "Any" and the question mark and we have a nice thread series 


Either way: So how many are out of the line? We have FTV1 and 2 out and ready, FTV1 flew, FTV is getting ready, and what about production models?
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KarelXWB
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:19 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
So how many are out of the line?

FTV3, 4 and 5 should all roll out this year. Also the first production model is in final assembly.

[Edited 2013-10-04 00:21:09]
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kmot
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:06 pm

Will we see any additional u.s. sales?

[Edited 2013-10-04 07:08:09]
 
rikkus67
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Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:38 pm

Quoting kmot (Reply 4):
Will we see any additional u.s. sales?

Hopefully, as favourable results start being confirmed, more interest in the aircraft is inevitable. To see the sales results the original CRJ-100/200 had is possibly unrealistic. To see a solid and steady increase in sales, I feel, is more realistic.
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Paolo92
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Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:35 pm

Nordic Aviation Capital, a Scandinavian aircraft lessor already Bombardier's customer with the Q-Series and CRJ aircraft, is eyeing a CSeries order, according to Flightglobal.
I remember, but I can't find the article atm, that when NAC ordered 12 CRJ1000 last year (for Garuda), the CEO, interviewed about the CSeries said that he saw it as a matter of when, not if, NAC will order the CSeries (which is what he is saying again today).

Nordic Aviation Capital eyes CSeries
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czbbflier
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:00 am

Just out of curiosity... has there been more than 3 flights?

How impatient am I to say that at the rate they're going, it seems like this project isn't going to see any EIS until about 2073. (But they're going to have several Academy Awards for their videos in the meantime....)
 
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KarelXWB
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:37 am

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 7):
has there been more than 3 flights?

Not yet. I have no idea why it takes so much time.
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ferpe
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 8):
I have no idea why it takes so much time.

I think there is a major difference in the flight test equipment set-up and it's capabilities between A, B and BBD. A and B have the capability to test in real time if they are approaching flutter boundaries, a very very dangerous condition that can set on very sudden if you've got something wrong an which can destroy the aircraft. I suspect BBD has a procedure and setup which is much more conservative here and therefore this early part of clearing the flight envelope will take more time, it will be more stretch the envelope, go back a check for the next stretch, fly it and so on. A clearly have a very strong telemetry link where the checking is done in real time at the flight test center, B has more capabilities on-board instead.

With only one flight engineer on board (B has more then 10! at certain cases) and a rather rudimentary flight test center compared to A I think BBD is more classical style here. Once BBD is past this phase things will progress at a more normal pace me thinks
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MANYUL
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:45 pm

First noise test carried out on 2nd flight fly-by.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Quoting ferpe (Reply 9):
I suspect BBD has a procedure and setup which is much more conservative

I'd have to agree, the time between flight 1 and 2 was spent meticulously going through all the data and creating software upgrades. They won't be rushed, that's for sure.
 
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golfradio
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:38 pm

I am not sure about YMX but here in southern ontario the weather has been wet for the past few days. Not sure how much of a factor weather is at this early stage of testing. Do they still need VMC weather or can they start testing in IMC?
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ferpe
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Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:50 pm

Quoting golfradio (Reply 11):
Do they still need VMC weather or can they start testing in IMC?

I would say they need VMC and low winds, they are not very far in checking out their systems it seems. Good info.
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YYZYYT
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Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting MANYUL (Reply 10):
First noise test carried out on 2nd flight fly-by.



Does anyone have any idea when the results will be released? I presume that there will be many further such tests, but was hpping for an early glimpse (it came to mind as I was reading about the ongoing debate re the Porter / YTZ runway extension).

Thanks
 
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Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:54 am

Lets hope for some action today, the weather looks OK. If they don't fly soon they are working on detected problems.
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sirtoby
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
Lets hope for some action today, the weather looks OK. If they don't fly soon they are working on detected problems.

Don't expect any flight in the next few days as currently they are doing ground vibrations tests.
 
Aviaponcho
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Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:17 pm

Thanks
I don't think it's a good news...
Is it ?
 
sirtoby
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Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:07 pm

Neither nor...it was planned as far as I know.
 
Aviaponcho
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Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:30 pm

Thanks
So it's a planned slow start for the flight tst campaign
 
ferpe
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Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 15):
as currently they are doing ground vibrations tests

In my book this is done as part of preparing or understanding flutter tests. Any more info why the vibration tests they did before first flight did not suffice?
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sirtoby
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Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:32 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 19):
Any more info why the vibration tests they did before first flight did not suffice?

No, sorry!
 
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PW100
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Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:08 pm

Hmm, I'm wondering, the slow flight test progress may suggest to me that they still have significant software challenges in the FWB department. Vibration tests, flutter, low speed, medium altitude, few configuration changes in the first flights all seem to point into defining (not even yet fine-tuning) FBW algorithms and logic patterns.

Hope they can get things going, but even getting other FTV's in the air soon, they don't seem to getting any meaningful flight hours per frame at the moment.
Looks more like a Norwegian 787 operation    than the Shinkansen-like A350 flight test operation . . .

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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 6):
Nordic Aviation Capital, a Scandinavian aircraft lessor already Bombardier's customer with the Q-Series and CRJ aircraft, is eyeing a CSeries order, according to Flightglobal.

The question is will Bombardier staff up sufficiently to get going?

I used to work in a system software lab. After almost every flight test the test team wants a software rebuild (I did when I was in flight test). But a new software build must pass in the lab before installation in the aircraft. I suspect Bombardier didn't pay for redundant test benches to debug software before it goes on a main bench. Boeing and Airbus will have 4+ main benches in the system center lab. Only one will be hooked up to the 'iron bird where hydraulics and full control boxes will be actuated (see if there is feedback from power draw to the control system). They will each also have 4 to 8 sub benches. Each bench is expensive for one needs real flight computers, real flight radios, and usually the sub-parts of the aircraft navigation system (e.g., GPS receiver, but not all benches will do simulated GPS transmission onto the actual GPS receivers). I suspect Bombardier needs more benches and is thus having to wait much longer for new software builds.

Lightsaber
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ferpe
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Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:05 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I suspect Bombardier needs more benches and is thus having to wait much longer for new software builds.

Yes, the difference between the Airbus 350 flight tests and the Cseries is striking. Both said they need a year to do the test, then delivery. The Cseries is systems wise less complex then an A350 but not with much. I think it is time for some aviation Journalist to ask BBD why things are progressing so slowly.

On another tack, better slow then taking risks but then the timeplan will not hold. Not that it matter much, the Cseries will be a 30 years program, better be a few more months late then doing imprudent things   .
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r2rho
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Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:07 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 23):
Yes, the difference between the Airbus 350 flight tests and the Cseries is striking.

Agree, but as lightsaber mentions, due to their size, A&B can afford much larger test infrastructure. Also, the A350's "dispatch reliability" is surprising and definitely more than one would expect from your average flight test aircraft; they are flying it almost like an airline. The CSeries is indeed disappointing in this aspect, but the comparison to A350 could hurt even Boeing (or the A380 at the time).

One major difference in the test programs (assuming all is on time) is that BBD was planning to have all its test aircraft in the air much earlier than Airbus, who just now has MSN3 but MSN2&4 won't arrive until early 2014. If the remaining CSeries FTV's arrive quickly, they could (partially) compensate their lower dispatch rate per a/c with having more a/c flying sooner.
 
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KarelXWB
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Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:38 pm

Airchive.com has an article about the CSeries factory, including some nice pictures of FTV4 and 5:

http://airchive.com/blog/2013/10/13/...ries-bombardier-building-new-jets/

[Edited 2013-10-14 06:40:59]
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EPA001
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:41 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 25):
Airchive.com has a article about the CSeries factory, including some nice pictures of FTV4 and 5:

Nice find. Interesting to read.  
 
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Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 24):
but the comparison to A350 could hurt even Boeing (or the A380 at the time).

I'm amazed at the A350 dispatch. I came out of flight test and that is impressive for this far from EIS.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 24):
If the remaining CSeries FTV's arrive quickly, they could (partially) compensate their lower dispatch rate per a/c with having more a/c flying sooner.

I speculate the problem with the C-series is software. Software takes more effort to debug, but once debugged the aircraft is more reliable than 'old school' aircraft. The A350 seems to have done an *amazing* job in the system center lab debugging their software/hardware. Did Airbus have up their Ironbird early? Considering how much better the A350 software is going than the A380, this isn't 'Airbus.' Did they hire a new manager of the system center lab?

I suspect Airbus did put in the extra benches... which will sit idle shortly (no avoiding that, but the flight hardware integrated into the benches is often available as spares for in service aircraft).


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Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
Did Airbus have up their Ironbird early?

They have the iron bird working since 2010, although it was not connected to Aircraft Zero until February 2013.

This article is a must read:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-avoid-787-s-ruffled-feathers.html
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EPA001
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Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
They have the iron bird working since 2010, although it was not connected to Aircraft Zero until February 2013.

So far the approach seems to be the right method and the smooth flight test program is their reward. Let's hope it stays this way.   .

For the C-series we can only hope for a similar successful flight test campaign.  Smile

[Edited 2013-10-14 12:14:46]
 
ferpe
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Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
The A350 seems to have done an *amazing* job in the system center lab debugging their software/hardware. Did Airbus have up their Ironbird early? Considering how much better the A350 software is going than the A380, this isn't 'Airbus.' Did they hire a new manager of the system center lab?

Airbus is on their (lets count: Concorde, 320, 340/330, 380, 400, 350 =) 6th FBW program and they went digital with the last bit (signal transmission to the actuators) on the 400. Also the whole computer and systems architecture is an update from the A380 and since then they have cleaned out all the old non conforming "I ex SNIAS/MBB do it my way" rubbish. That means all work with the same system architecture, tools and digital models since the 350. They have gobs of experience and a project management determined to "do it right" this time with 110% support from top management. There has been 0 tolerance for not following best practices and do it right the first time.

Guess BBD is not quite there yet even though we root for them and want them to show the big guys how you do it  .
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CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 30):
Guess BBD is not quite there yet even though we root for them and want them to show the big guys how you do it  .

I'd guess right now they may well be more in the learning mode than in the "showing how to" mode
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tortugamon
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):

Something tells me A & B are not very excited to see the CS300. I wonder what a third member of the family might look like :-0. Its not surprising to see the A319/73G are so similar.

tortugamon
 
neutronstar73
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:50 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 33):
Something tells me A & B are not very excited to see the CS300. I wonder what a third member of the family might look like :-0. Its not surprising to see the A319/73G are so similar.

I hope they are scared! I'm seriously hoping the C-Series really lives up to the promise, and give the duopoly a kick in the nose.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):


I can't believe this airplane is not getting more hype. It blows the 73G and A319 into the weeds on costs. But I guess they just have the installed user base. BBD will catch up.
 
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EPA001
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 34):
I can't believe this airplane is not getting more hype. It blows the 73G and A319 into the weeds on costs. But I guess they just have the installed user base. BBD will catch up.

I can. A newcomer has to proof itself in the market. Remember Airbus only forecasting 450 sales at the start of the A320 program in the late '80's?

Besides that, the C-series might be very competitive with the smaller A319 and B737-7MAX, but if the airlines which BBD is targeting is already flying with Airbus and/or Boeing aircraft, it might be cheaper to add airplanes from A & B. BBD would require new infrastructure etc. On the other hand, Embraer has also succeeded to penetrate the market and the BBD offering seems very attractive on its own. So they might also pull it off, maybe at the expense of Embraer. Who knows.  .
 
LH707330
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting NeutronStar73 (Reply 34):
I can't believe this airplane is not getting more hype. It blows the 73G and A319 into the weeds on costs. But I guess they just have the installed user base. BBD will catch up.

I think it's two things:
1. Everyone's still waiting to see if they fumble inside the 20
2. Some carriers look like they might be upgauging, so there may be skepticism about the size of the market

I could see them punting on EIS, but in 2020 everyone will look at it as a solid plane.
 
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EPA001
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 36):
1. Everyone's still waiting to see if they fumble inside the 20

and:

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 36):
I could see them punting on EIS

You sure put it nicely with the reference to American Football. But those less familiar with that beautiful art of sports might have some question marks above their heads now. .

But those reasons you state can very well also be reasons why the C-series is not the large sales success yet it could become.
 
LH707330
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 37):
You sure put it nicely with the reference to American Football. But those less familiar with that beautiful art of sports might have some question marks above their heads now. .

Fair enough, let me internationalize:

1. People might expect them to miss the 1:1 with the keeper or
2. Only score in the second half

Either way, I think people are taking the "wait and see" approach. It's much easier to sound smart after the game if you didn't say anything beforehand.
 
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Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
Did they hire a new manager of the system center lab?

There isn't a single system center lab, the test rigs are distributed as per the traditionnal Airbus workshare in Toulouse (flight related systems), Hamburg (cabin), Bremen (high-lift), Filton (landing gear), Broughton, Getafe (near Madrid) etc..
No different from any previous program.
The main difference is in integration methods and ICD management (I know you know what that means   )
And some new stuff in the simulators, but shhhh...      

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I suspect Bombardier needs more benches and is thus having to wait much longer for new software builds.

Maybe it's simply a more general issue of inexperience in how to handle quick modifications to the highly integrated systems. This is after all the first time BBD tests an all-new aircraft design in what...10 years ? (Learjet 40 ?). And that is probably a much much simpler design, without data networks and feedback loops and all those migraine-inducing things.


Quoting ferpe (Reply 30):
since then they have cleaned out all the old non conforming "I ex SNIAS/MBB do it my way" rubbish. That means all work with the same system architecture, tools and digital models since the 350

Ummmm...no  
The rubbish is still there in many places, the inherited tool chains also. But at least the tools are somewhat compatible this time. And the French and Germans appreciate each other a bit more  
Quoting r2rho (Reply 24):
BBD was planning to have all its test aircraft in the air much earlier than Airbus, who just now has MSN3 but MSN2&4 won't arrive until early 2014

Which has its pros and cons. BBD will have more aircraft to perform tests, but any modifications will be incorporated into later aircraft. So the prototypes may end up being very different from production frames, which can be a headache...
My goal as an engineer is to fill my soul with coffee and become immortal
 
r2rho
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Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:16 pm

Actually, it does seem that with the CSeries BBD is advancing in the same direction as A&B in the area of system integration tests with their new CIASTA, except that for them, it is probably the 1st time they perform systems testing at such a complex level, while A&B can draw on all the experience from previous programs.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 39):
No different from any previous program.

Somewhat disagree - the result is being definitely very different to previous programs. Suppliers are having to do much more testing than before, prior to delivering to Airbus, and Airbus itself is doing more complex integration testing on their ground means than before. On A350 they have taken all this to a higher level than on A380.
 
queb
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Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:09 pm

ground vibration testing is now completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQGHtXXUGQA
 
opethfan
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Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 33):

I want to see a CS500 (and its projected economics) quite badly.
 
ferpe
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Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:16 am

Quoting queb (Reply 41):
ground vibration testing is now completed.

I don't get it, why was this not completed before first flight? Nothing has changed structurally since then and they have flown the aircraft to M 0.6 without having 100% grip on the bending modes of the wings and airframe??

I find this hard to believe, there is something they have seen in this third flight that makes them go back and redo the tests with more thorough analysis of certain bending modes and frequencies.

To me it has a certain smell of problems. It could also be BBDs test method to do it in an iterative way but then I need others to give examples of other projects that have stepped forward in such an iterative way. To me the bending modes and frequencies and the aerodynamic forces shall have been clear before the third flight, that they then see for instance aero loads that differ is possible but then they should only need to re-run their models to understand if they are approaching flutter ground, not re-run the vibration tests.

[Edited 2013-10-16 22:18:59]
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KarelXWB
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Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:17 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 41):
ground vibration testing is now completed.

Story on Flightglobal:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-ground-vibration-testing-391806/
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Aviaponcho
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Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 43):

They might have adjusted the FE calculation based on flight test results on the "known" part of the flight enveloppe.
The ground test might be needed to recheck the code on the "unknown part" of the flight enveloppe
Having say that, i'm not convinced... they could have used ground vibration sets from the initial tests for that

Sounds strange
 
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Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):

Look what I found:

Thank you. That puts in nice graphical form (and numbers) why the C-series has pushed both Boeing and Airbus to update their narrowbodies. It also highlights why the SSJ isn't selling so well...

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 28):
They have the iron bird working since 2010, although it was not connected to Aircraft Zero until February 2013.

Thank you. The 2010 is the important date. Early software debugging while building off a known good architecture:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 30):
since then they have cleaned out all the old non conforming "I ex SNIAS/MBB do it my way" rubbish. That means all work with the same system architecture, tools and digital models since the 350.

   I think it also helped having done so shortly after the A380. In other words, the staff is experienced. But this has gone so much better than the *same* work on the A380 I suspect there are a few individuals who helped push through better standard work as a lessons learned.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 36):
I could see them punting on EIS, but in 2020 everyone will look at it as a solid plane.

Agreed. The hardest part for Bombardier will be selling the first 300 airframes to set up economies of scale (e.g., MRO network) and debug the design. Once it is proven, it should sell nicely. I agree with your timeframe (unfortunately, as I am a HUGE C-series fan). I think Bombardier could accelerate that a bit... but could and will are two different verbs...

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 39):
Maybe it's simply a more general issue of inexperience in how to handle quick modifications to the highly integrated systems.

And probably how to debug before the sub-systems are integrated...

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 39):
without data networks and feedback loops and all those migraine-inducing things.

Tell me about it...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
queb
Posts: 843
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:39 pm

Program update from Rob Dewar, CSeries program manager. First CS300 fuselage will arrive later this month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwkhQDDEgdw
 
ferpe
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:44 am

CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:59 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 47):
Program update from Rob Dewar, CSeries program manager.

Everything looks great except they have flown 3 times in 30 days, that does not look good at all. Why is he not addressing the questions that everyone is asking, why are they on the ground doing stuff that everyone thought they had behind them??

And why is he talking about doing shimmy and vibration tests, they did these before a delayed first flight, why again????

Edit:
I checked around and found this sentence from Leeham news which can explain the shimmy part, but how can indoor vibration testing be delayed by rainy weather  Wow! , on the contrary, if they can't fly for another week they have more time for indoor testing  Yeah sure

"We understand that the long run of rainy weather in advance of the first flight (delayed by a week because of the weather) meant that some of the testing that had been expected in advance of the flight resumed after the flight."

[Edited 2013-10-17 11:38:34]
Non French in France
 
queb
Posts: 843
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:10 am

CSeries - Flight Testing And Production Thread (Part 1)

Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:25 pm

Maybe because Bombardier had invited more than 70 carriers for the first flight happening and they could not postpone.