dkny
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:54 am

Does anyone know the status of ET-AOP? The bird that caught fire at LHR. Is it being repaired? When will it go back to service?
 
Lofty
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 am

The last I heard was they are going to build a Temp Building around the tail area and remove the rear section and fit a new section but no idea on time scales.
One option that was looked at was flying low and slow back to the USA but that has been ruled out.
 
GCT64
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:41 am

Quoting dkny (Thread starter):
Does anyone know the status of ET-AOP?

Still parked in the cargo area at LHR AFAIK, it was last time I looked a week or two ago.
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aviatorcraig
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:32 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 2):
Still parked in the cargo area at LHR AFAIK, it was last time I looked a week or two ago.

Thank you! I have searched the BA engineering base looking for this plane, sounds like I have been looking in the wrong place all along.

Quoting Lofty (Reply 1):
The last I heard was they are going to build a Temp Building around the tail area and remove the rear section and fit a new section

That sounds extremely expensive to do at Heathrow. I am surprised that with the engineering facilities that BA and to a lesser extent Virgin and United have there, they couldn't be accommodated in an existing hangar. I know these people have their own airlines to run but surely a deal could be done?

Quoting Lofty (Reply 1):
One option that was looked at was flying low and slow back to the USA but that has been ruled out.

That would be the best option if possible, or if not to the USA then a more local ferry flight to available engineering facilities. If the structure cannot be reinforced with doubler spars etc. sufficient for a special permit ferry flight with restrictions (e.g. not over Central London!), this gives us an idea of the scale of the damage.
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skipness1E
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 3):
That sounds extremely expensive to do at Heathrow. I am surprised that with the engineering facilities that BA and to a lesser extent Virgin and United have there, they couldn't be accommodated in an existing hangar. I know these people have their own airlines to run but surely a deal could be done?

Not for the length of time needed, there's no longer "spare" hangar capacity.

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 3):

That sounds extremely expensive to do at Heathrow.

It's a big tent really. They did something similar at UEL when the damaged Swiss RJ100 was boated across the dock to be repaired on the Royal Albert Dock at London City. A large temporary building was thrown up to allow the engineers to work under cover.
 
bx737
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:00 pm

They did the same in Shannon when Futura had their accident there. The tent was built around the 737 and the tail was taken off the aircraft to put it in the tent.
 
TUGMASTER
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:25 pm

yep...aircraft is parked in the Zulus...616 or similar....
 
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SKAirbus
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:54 pm

I'm guessing the insurers haven't yet deemed this a total loss?

I guess ET won't be very happy having one of their birds out of service for so long.
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trent900
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:13 pm

Quoting Lofty (Reply 1):
One option that was looked at was flying low and slow back to the USA but that has been ruled out.

One of the problems with this option is how bad was internal damage. ie: wiring needed for the operation of the aircraft etc.

Have any internal photos been released yet?

D.
 
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:15 pm

Quoting Lofty (Reply 1):
That sounds extremely expensive to do at Heathrow. I am surprised that with the engineering facilities that BA and to a lesser extent Virgin and United have there, they couldn't be accommodated in an existing hangar. I know these people have their own airlines to run but surely a deal could be done?

How about flying it low and slow to Cardiff and fix her up in the BA facility there? or is it too space-constrained?

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speedbird128
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting trent900 (Reply 8):
ave any internal photos been released yet?

Officially from Boeing I haven't seen any - and I bet people have been told they will pay with their lives if they leak them LOL!
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:54 pm

Boeing asked to use BA FSU but due to TBJ under renovation they just dont have the hanger space.

I doubt Virgin have either.

Another story which is doing the rounds is that Boeing are going to bring the dreamlifter in, remove the 787 wings and fly it back to Seattle.
 
TC957
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:04 pm

Would a whole 787 fuselage fit inside a Dreamlifter ? Or would that mean another chop ? Presumably the tail will need to come off as well.
Goodness me, surely it's best to give ET-AOP a dignified end rather than put her through all that, as, apart from the learning and R & D benefit being gained for fixing future 787 mishaps, it can't be worth all the effort and cost.
 
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Dan23
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:09 pm

Surely removal of the wings and transport back to Seattle would be far too expensive and time consuming for it to be a realistic option?
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GCT64
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:43 pm

Quoting TUGMASTER (Reply 6):
yep...aircraft is parked in the Zulus...616 or similar....

Yes, Stand 616 is where I last saw it.
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 14):
Yes, Stand 616 is where I last saw it.

Does it have any covers over the affected area? I remember there was some debate as to whether the fuselage actually suffered a burn-through or not.
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vv701
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 9):
How about flying it low and slow to Cardiff and fix her up in the BA facility there?

BA are currently outsourcing some major 734 maintenance to Lufthansa Technik at SOF and some aircraft painting to IB at MAD. For the last two years they have also leased the old Polar hangar at PIK to supplement their single aisle Airbus maintenance at GLA. So I doubt that have any spare hangar capacity despite adding the ex-BD hangar to their LHR engineering facilities in April last year.
 
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:26 pm

A photo of ET-AOP was posted on the facebook page 'LHR: airside' a little while ago. The photo dated 28th August shows it at LHR parked away on the cargo apron at 616, all covered up in storage.
see: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=443676322417361&set=pb.423623891089271.-2207520000.1381187928.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F1265999_443676322417361_1294281597_o.jpg&smallsrc=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2F1238038_443676322417361_1294281597_n.jpg&size=2048%2C1152

 
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817Dreamliiner
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:05 am

Just noticed this tweet from Matt Cawby:

Quote:
Heard there was a Boeing AOG shipment from PAE to LHR on Monday maybe for Ethiopian 787 ET-AOP?
http://twitter.com/mattcawby/status/387360481003855873
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uta999
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:38 am

It is likely they would have to cut off the rear fuselage behind the wing and bring in a new one, complete with new tail sections. A temporary hanger at BA maintenance, near Hatton Cross built over her.

Is it possible to split a 787 down the middle and marry on a new fuselage? I would have thought it must be, or they will end up writing off more frames after heavy landings, lorry strikes etc.

ET won't want a simple patch and Boeing won't want a hull loss. It won't fly again till summer 2014 anyway.
 
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frigatebird
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:21 am

Quoting dan23 (Reply 13):
Surely removal of the wings and transport back to Seattle would be far too expensive and time consuming for it to be a realistic option?

Not possible with the dreamlifter, but transport by ship should be doable.

Quoting uta999 (Reply 19):
It is likely they would have to cut off the rear fuselage behind the wing and bring in a new one, complete with new tail sections.

Perhaps they could even re-use the vertical and horizontal stabilisors.
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SKAirbus
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:57 am

Write it off and give 'em a new one. That's what Tesco would do.
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:09 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 21):
Write it off and give 'em a new one. That's what Tesco would do.

  

...and Apple  

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EK413
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:44 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 7):

I'm guessing the insurers haven't yet deemed this a total loss?

I guess ET won't be very happy having one of their birds out of service for so long.

The insurers would avoid a write off at all costs especially if it works out cheaper to repair.

As for ET I bet my money they aren't happy and they'll prefer a new bird.

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KarelXWB
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:48 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 21):
Write it off and give 'em a new one.
Quoting EK413 (Reply 23):
As for ET I bet my money they aren't happy and they'll prefer a new bird.

Easier said than done, the backlog stretches into 2018 already. Assigning a new one to ET would mean someone else has to wait a bit longer.
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BoeingVista
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:54 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 20):
Not possible with the dreamlifter, but transport by ship should be doable.

Ok, I was unaware that LHR was a port.. How exactly are you planning to get ET-AOP onto a ship?
BV
 
uta999
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:59 pm

If Airbus can get a new A380 fuselage through a tiny French village twice a week, I am sure Boeing can get a chopped up 788 down the A30/M25/M3 to Southampton.

They would simply need a temporary road and a hole in the fence at 09R.

If I were ET, I would ask for three early 788s free for domestic African services as compensation.
 
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SKAirbus
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:37 pm

Quoting uta999 (Reply 26):
If Airbus can get a new A380 fuselage through a tiny French village twice a week, I am sure Boeing can get a chopped up 788 down the A30/M25/M3 to Southampton.

The difference here is that the supply routes for Airbus and the A380 are so intricately designed that infrastructure was upgraded in order to facilitate these conveys. Plus a journey through the French countryside is a little different to navigating around one of the most densely populated regions of Europe.

Maybe they can get a few Chinooks to come and carry it away... It'll be like something from James Bond.
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aviatorcraig
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:55 pm

Quoting uta999 (Reply 26):
If Airbus can get a new A380 fuselage through a tiny French village twice a week, I am sure Boeing can get a chopped up 788 down the A30/M25/M3 to Southampton.

Given that a standard motorway bridge gives a minimum clearance of 16' 6" (5.03 mtr) and there are dozens of them between LHR and Southampton, and within that measurement you have to allow for the height of the transportation vehicle, you would be chopping the 787 fuselage into very small pieces!   
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BoeingVista
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:22 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 28):

I can just imagine a 62m long load going up the off ramp and taking the turn from the M25 to M3   no problems at all!

The torturous journey would also be great publicity for Boeing, it doesn't matter if your 787 catches fire, you can drive it to where you got to go.. with a police escort.
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vv701
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 25):
Ok, I was unaware that LHR was a port.. How exactly are you planning to get ET-AOP onto a ship?

Concorde G-BOAA never had a CoA after the CDG accident. It was never updated with the required modifications. So it travelled by barge down the Thames from Isleworth near Heathrow, past the Houses of Parliament


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and up to Torness on the Firth of Forth near Edinburgh. Then it was transported across some fields to the Museum of Flight, East Fortune. It is on display there today:


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I can see no reason why, with its tail fin and wings removed, the ET 787 could not be transported by barge to a major British port before crossing the Atlantic.
 
TUGMASTER
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 28):
you would be chopping the 787 fuselage into very small pieces!

believe that will be its fate anyway.....
 
RussianJet
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 23):
The insurers would avoid a write off at all costs especially if it works out cheaper to repair.

Surely the insurer would want to avoid a write off ONLY if it was cheaper to repair??
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kanban
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:48 am

Quoting dan23 (Reply 13):
Surely removal of the wings and transport back to Seattle would be far too expensive and time consuming for it to be a realistic option?

even if they could, what happens when it gets to Everett.. it will require special jigs to resemble, and they would not put it back into the production line and muck it all up. AOG teams have adaptable tooling.. maybe not for the 787 yet and getting that made may be the delay..

Disassembling adds to the performance problems later.. a lot of added weight for oversized fasteners and new plates. only those components that are bolted on can you use the old holes. and then there is a nightmare of a task removing sealants and anticorrosion materials on all the affected metal surfaces.
 
RedChili
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
Easier said than done, the backlog stretches into 2018 already. Assigning a new one to ET would mean someone else has to wait a bit longer.

True, but the same goes for putting a new tail section onto this plane. Those tail sections are assigned to the backlog of planes. Unless those factories producing the tail sections can ramp-up more easily than those factories producing the other sections.
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KarelXWB
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:36 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 34):
True, but the same goes for putting a new tail section onto this plane. Those tail sections are assigned to the backlog of planes. Unless those factories producing the tail sections can ramp-up more easily than those factories producing the other sections.

Fair enough.

Anyway, someone on Twitter claims ET-AOP will be repaired. Not sure where he heard this:

http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/387549738192867328
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817Dreamliiner
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:47 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
Anyway, someone on Twitter claims ET-AOP will be repaired. Not sure where he heard this:

http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/stat...67328

Well, according to Matt Cawby, there was an AOG shipment to LHR on Monday, so it kinda makes sense.
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PanHAM
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:27 pm

Transpoirt by ocean would be an interesting task for a freight forwarder specialized in heavy and outsize loads. If the Conorde made it to a barge the Dreamlifter could do that as well.

Engines, wings and tail fin could fly in a dreamlifter, Airbus would be delighted to supply a Beluga, may be they dream about that Kind of Publicity already. Now, the fuselage would need to be "conserved" to avoid sea water and the climate influenceses on a journey through the Panama Canal

It is all a matter of Money.
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SKAirbus
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:38 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
Transpoirt by ocean would be an interesting task for a freight forwarder specialized in heavy and outsize loads. If the Conorde made it to a barge the Dreamlifter could do that as well.

Engines, wings and tail fin could fly in a dreamlifter, Airbus would be delighted to supply a Beluga, may be they dream about that Kind of Publicity already. Now, the fuselage would need to be "conserved" to avoid sea water and the climate influenceses on a journey through the Panama Canal

It is all a matter of Money.

The cost of that operation would be in the millions, literally... Chartering a ship, the engineering costs, logistics, parts etc etc. Being in insurance, I doubt the insurers (most likely Lloyds) will agree to this.

There must be a simpler solution here or I wonder if the insurers will consider this a constructive total loss. Also, the fees for parking the thing at LHR can't be cheap so by the time they get round to such an operation, they will no doubt also be in the millions of £££
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skipness1E
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:41 pm

Wow there's a lot of speculative posts on this. Without being on the inside on this, I imagine it may be cheaper to part it out than repair. However Boeing way well wish to try and repair, partly as a learning experience. There is a positive to be taken from getting this aircraft back into service and compensating ET for the inconvenience. There are a few stored and overweight early B787s that may well become parts donors.

As has been said, there's no hangar space available to do months of work at Heathrow, so a big tent it is   However talk of taking it apart and shipping her by sea is, I would imagine at any rate, prohibitively expensive.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 34):
Those tail sections are assigned to the backlog of planes. Unless those factories producing the tail sections can ramp-up more easily than those factories producing the other sections.

As stated, there are stored B787s way too heavy for airline service that could help....
 
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garpd
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:42 pm

My bet is on a repair and back in service.

This would also prove invaluable on the experience side of things. I wouldn't be surprised that if repair goes ahead, BA lends a few engineers for the job, being that they have a 787 fleet.
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SonomaFlyer
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:50 pm

It's possible the AOG shipment on Monday to LHR will accomplish a temporary fix to allow a ferry certificate to a facility where permanent repairs could be carried out. The BA technical centre in Wales would be the most likely in the UK though there are others. If not, perhaps ferrying the a/c back to CHS or PAE.
 
fcogafa
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:54 pm

An 'AOG shipment to Heathrow' is not necessarily for the ETH aircraft, I am led to believe that there are other Boeings that operate out of there.

[Edited 2013-10-09 07:14:29]
 
sweair
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:55 pm

How about LH technik? They have the competence to repair cfrp iirc?
 
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bikerthai
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:56 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 39):
However talk of taking it apart and shipping her by sea is, I would imagine at any rate, prohibitively expensive.

Taking the plane apart is not something you do lightly. Removing each of the close tolerance bolts that holds the section together would require oversizing the fasteners when you re-assemble the parts again. In doing so, you risk of screwing up the hole.

Typically the design allows for one maybe even two oversize, but in doing so you reduce the strength and fatigue life of the joint. (I know, the composites and titanium is better in fatigue but you only have so much strength margin in the design).

Best to minimize the number of fasteners you have to remove and replace. Is this frame one of the early frames that had the wing root mod? If yes then you don't really want to touch that joint again . . . I would venture.

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TheRedBaron
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:09 pm

Quoting trent900 (Reply 8):
Have any internal photos been released yet?

I bet a blizzard in hell is more likely than us seeing internal damage photos of the ET bird.

To think all this expenses were caused by a small battery inside a metal container with almost no connection to the main electrical systems oh boy! I wonder who is going to pay the deductible....

Seeing that Boeing have some early unusable frames at PAE, I bet they WANT to fix it...but I guess that 787 wont be in the air till next summer.
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pugman211
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:52 pm

I think we need to keep an eye out for the AOG shipment and speculate from there.
 
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Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:38 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 12):
Goodness me, surely it's best to give ET-AOP a dignified end rather than put her through all that, as, apart from the learning and R & D benefit being gained for fixing future 787 mishaps, it can't be worth all the effort and cost.
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 21):
Write it off and give 'em a new one. That's what Tesco would do.

I have said it before and I will say it again---it makes no difference if the insurance company considers it a total loss or if the cost of repairs is GREATER than a new bird----none of that matters folks! The CEO of Boeing is on record saying it will be repaired and it will be-----Boeing simply will not take a hull loss on the 787 regardless of cost---let's now move forward and just talk about repairs not if it is going to be repaired.
 
max999
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 47):
I have said it before and I will say it again---it makes no difference if the insurance company considers it a total loss or if the cost of repairs is GREATER than a new bird----none of that matters folks! The CEO of Boeing is on record saying it will be repaired and it will be-----Boeing simply will not take a hull loss on the 787 regardless of cost---let's now move forward and just talk about repairs not if it is going to be repaired.

Exactly, this is a public relations move on the part of Boeing. They have to demonstrate to all their customers that a small fire is repairable and won't lead to a hull loss. This is part of Boeing's effort to keep people's confidence in the 787 program after years of delays and the battery debacle.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6674
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

Status Of ET-AOP 787 At LHR (Part 1)

Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:46 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 47):
The CEO of Boeing is on record saying it will be repaired and it will be

I am not familiar with a quote from the CEO to this effect. Can you pass along? Excited by the news. I don't think anyone wanted this to be a hull loss. It makes things difficult for everyone involved as well as Airbus when it comes to selling their composite aircraft. Customers need to know that these aircraft can be fixed without too much fan fair. Fingers crossed on the fanfare.

tortugamon