airliner371
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Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:36 pm

It is planning a full year of celebrations and promotions to lead up to Oct. 13, 2014.

On Monday, it will unveil a countdown clock in its headquarters lobby so that employees can see how many days remain until the big change.

“Something big is going to happen on 10-13-14,” Southwest executive Ron Ricks said Friday, “and it’s so big that we think it’s going to take a full year to celebrate. So we’re going to start the countdown at 10-14-2013.”

"If history is any guide, Southwest probably will lay out its Oct. 13, 2014, schedule in February or March."

“Being Southwest Airlines, we may have a surprise or two here or there with regards to timing,” Ricks said, “but we don’t know yet.”

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...dy-for-end-of-wright-amendment.ece

A very exciting year ahead for Southwest!
 
Mir
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:51 pm

Now if we could just get working on the repeal of the gate capping, or (even better) require WN to give up some some more gates in order to make things properly competitive at the airport.

-Mir
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aviatorcraig
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:58 pm

I just read the linked news item to find out what the Wright Amendment is... restrictive legislation on where an airline can fly to from Dallas Love Field.

"Not only did the law bar flights beyond those states, but it also barred airlines from selling a ticket that would take a passenger to airports beyond those states even on a connecting or one-stop basis." Crazy!

I find myself asking the same question with the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA... Why???

I can understand why traffic may be restricted/capped for environmental reasons, but if you are allowing a jet airliner to depart, why on earth should it matter where it is going?
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n471wn
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Now if we could just get working on the repeal of the gate capping, or (even better) require WN to give up some some more gates in order to make things properly competitive at the airport.

We need to have more gates allowed and built at DAL as I have frequently opined. It is ridiculous to have any restrictions on Love Field---look at other large cities and metropolitan areas---most have more than one airport to choose from---we in the Bay Area have 3 and Los Angels has 5, Chicago 3 and NYC area 3 to name a few.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

Now if we could just get working on the repeal of the gate capping, or (even better) require WN to give up some some more gates in order to make things properly competitive at the airport.

You know it wasn't WN who put the gate restrictions in.... As far as "properly competitive", no one has shown any real interest in flying there in some time. Find someone who cares about gate space there and you'll see they have gates.

I still think WN agreed to the whole nasty mess simply because it got them closer to where they wanted to be... eventualy. Yet hoping someone else would sue over the blatently illegal crap in it. That way they could go "yes, yes we agree this whole thing is wrong and needs to be ended now with none of this anti-competitive and illegal measures in it"

Still stands that there is no outside party wanting in at this time.
 
tjh8402
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:09 pm

Any guess on what the odds are that MCO will be one of the new non stop destinations? AA is currently my only option to go to the Dallas/Ft Worth area non stop, and whenever I looked they were quite expensive. I'm flying WN next month, but obviously having to connect in HOU. Would be nice to be able to do the trip non stop.
 
LittleFokker
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 2):
I can understand why traffic may be restricted/capped for environmental reasons, but if you are allowing a jet airliner to depart, why on earth should it matter where it is going?

You have to remember the timeline of how DAL, DFW, the CAB, and WN came to be to understand. The decision to build DFW came before WN began operations. All current operators at DAL at the time they decided to begin construction signed an agreement to move to DFW upon completion of the airport. WN began operation while DFW was in the middle of being constructed. The CAB, which existed until 1979, didn't allow any airline to freely operate anywhere (all domestic routes had to be approved through them). WN had only applied with the CAB to be an intrastate carrier within Texas, and wasn't expected to be a threat to anyone at the beginning. So, to protect their investment into DFW, the Wright Amendment was passed to ensure that any airline that wanted to do significant business in the Dallas/Ft Worth area would chose DFW over DAL. When de-regulation occurred in 1979, the game changed for everyone in the industry, and thus the spat between AA and WN over DAL began.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 3):
We need to have more gates allowed and built at DAL as I have frequently opined. It is ridiculous to have any restrictions on Love Field---look at other large cities and metropolitan areas---most have more than one airport to choose from---we in the Bay Area have 3 and Los Angels has 5, Chicago 3 and NYC area 3 to name a few.

The metroplex is unique situation that isn't wholly comparable to the others you mentioned. Except for the Bay Area, the other cities you mentioned are large cities surrounded by ample suburbs. The airports in those regions are scattered enough as to serve the individual areas of that market. DFW serves two major cities with surrounding suburbs that are just close enough together that it can properly serve both conveniently. Sure, DAL could be expanded to it's maximum capacity (not much higher than what it currently is), but at what cost? Would you have to develop FTW into a similar sized airport to properly serve it? Wouldn't new traffic at DAL be cannibalizing traffic from DFW at this point? And that would hurt Ft Worth if they didn't develop their own airport.
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 5):

I bet MCO will be one of the new destinations when the time comes.

And also don't forget that NK flies DFW-MCO twice a day.  
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Okie
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Thread starter):
“Being Southwest Airlines, we may have a surprise or two here or there with regards to timing,” Ricks said, “but we don’t know yet

Could it be Mexico flights with Customs and Immigration at HOU or SAT on the return trip?

The Wright Amendment has had it's good points as well for connecting states. OKC has been a benefactor since we are a connecting state and have had many flight options because the WA has required a stop at an WA state.

Now OKC will have to stand on its own, with the end of the WA and the cap on flights at KDAL then we may see a pretty good roll back on flights to accommodate higher revenue direct routes out of KDAL.

Okie
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 6):

Thanks for the explanation LF. It is much clearer now, but amazing to think that this overhang from before the 1979 deregulation still has an effect in 2013!
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tjh8402
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 7):
And also don't forget that NK flies DFW-MCO twice a day.

You couldn't pay me to set foot on an NK flight haha
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 10):

Same here! But I just thought I'd throw that out there!       
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mcdu
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 3):
We need to have more gates allowed and built at DAL as I have frequently opined. It is ridiculous to have any restrictions on Love Field

Those restrictions went into place at the creation of DFW. WN should not have been granted the exemption at DAL. In fact I think that they should have been forced to give up much more to get the perimeter rule removed. WN was handed a monopoly at DAL with the removal of the perimeter relaxation. Imagine if this was AA, UA or DL with a fortress at DAL and WN wanted slots. The outrage from the WN side would be deafening.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Thread starter):

  

I'm excited! Talk about bad government and politics screwing us over. It's been long overdue. Let us hope there are no more government chicanery to block the end of this malarky!
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
n471wn
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
Those restrictions went into place at the creation of DFW. WN should not have been granted the exemption at DAL. In fact I think that they should have been forced to give up much more to get the perimeter rule removed. WN was handed a monopoly at DAL with the removal of the perimeter relaxation. Imagine if this was AA, UA or DL with a fortress at DAL and WN wanted slots. The outrage from the WN side would be deafening.

Oh pleeez.....you mean that because WN outmaneuvered AA and the DFW people that you want them punished? I say they were strategically brilliant!!
 
Mir
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:00 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
You know it wasn't WN who put the gate restrictions in

It wasn't, but I don't think they minded much. They got handed a virtual monopoly of the airport, an a legally-enforced one at that - that's pretty valuable.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
As far as "properly competitive", no one has shown any real interest in flying there in some time.

JetBlue definitely did when the whole debate was going on, and they weren't happy that they were shut out of the airport. Any similar carrier would be a good candidate for DAL service. F9, VX, etc. - non-legacy carriers that want to serve the Dallas market with a couple of flights per day, and for whom the lower costs of DAL would be beneficial.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 14):
you mean that because WN outmaneuvered AA and the DFW people that you want them punished?

It's not about punishing WN, it's about actually "setting Love free", not chaining it to one carrier.

-Mir
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 10):
You couldn't pay me to set foot on an NK flight

Isn't Spirit rated a bit worse than Greyhound for travel?

Has no one mentioned that PHX will be one of the first cities?
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
It wasn't, but I don't think they minded much. They got handed a virtual monopoly of the airport, an a legally-enforced one at that - that's pretty valuable.

Are you faulting the airline for making a genious business decision?

Quoting n471wn (Reply 14):
Oh pleeez.....you mean that because WN outmaneuvered AA and the DFW people that you want them punished? I say they were strategically brilliant!!

I agree. It was an excellent business decision!
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Okie
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
Those restrictions went into place at the creation of DFW. WN should not have been granted the exemption at DAL

The gate and flight restrictions came with the end of the WA settlement.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
Imagine if this was AA, UA or DL with a fortress at DAL and WN wanted slots. The outrage from the WN side would be deafening

I am afraid your analogy is incorrect. AA has always had gates at KDAL and has tried time and time again to get profitable operations going there and compete against WN.
AA, UA, DL, B6, NK anyone can operate out of KDAL at any time they please and can fly anywhere out of KDAL after 10-13-14 without a WA stop.
CO or if you want to call it UA, operates out of KDAL and has a relative successful schedule.

Okie
 
barney captain
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting okie (Reply 8):
Could it be Mexico flights with Customs and Immigration at HOU or SAT on the return trip?

Nice thought, but even after the "repeal" (maybe we should just refer to it as "easing") of the Wright Amendment, International flights are still prohibited out of DAL.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Okie
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 19):
Nice thought, but even after the "repeal" (maybe we should just refer to it as "easing") of the Wright Amendment, International flights are still prohibited out of DAL.

Ok, Thanks

I thought HNL but that is roughly 3300nm from KDAL and a 738 is rated at 2900nm roughly with standard tank.
We are looking at "Big surprise" that is related to "timing" which would sort of line up with 180 ETOPS implementation but can not be international and HNL is not international so now the question is.
Do the new WN ETOPS birds have additional tanks to handle the distance?
We are only talking less than 15% more fuel or combination of less passengers.

Okie
 
cschleic
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 13):
I'm excited! Talk about bad government and politics screwing us over. It's been long overdue. Let us hope there are no more government chicanery to block the end of this malarky!

Yes and no. As noted, the amendment became effective long before Southwest was the business force it is today. Times were different then, and the law supported DFW. But, who knows, without the amendment and dominance at Love Field, maybe WN wouldn't have become as large as it is today, with all the influence it has had over competition in other cities.

Other carriers could have flown out of DAL and, as noted above, have and do so now. Remember AA flying F-100's to LAX? Legend Airlines and their 56-passenger DC-9's?

There's plenty of odd protectionist legislation out there. That's just what the WA is...protectionist, but in this case, favoring economic trade of one city over another, rather than the typical one country over another.
 
barney captain
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting okie (Reply 20):
Do the new WN ETOPS birds have additional tanks to handle the distance?

Unfortunately, not even close. The -800 can reliably make the West Coast to Hawaii (although even PDX/SEA can be a problem), but anything even remotely inland (LAS/PHX) is a non-starter. So DAL would definitely not be doable.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
cschleic
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:32 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 22):
The -800 can reliably make the West Coast to Hawaii (although even PDX/SEA can be a problem), but anything even remotely inland (LAS/PHX) is a non-starter.

Really? PDX is only about 50 miles further from HNL than LAX; SEA about 70 miles beyond that; Vancouver a bit further. Interestingly, SFO/OAK are closer than LAX is. Do 73H flights from the Northwest have to divert? But, agreed, DAL would never work for a 73H; it's more than a 1,000 miles further than LAX.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:36 am

Let's be honest here. AA should be the ones with the countdown clock. LOL.

Southwest is certainly gonna steal some o&d off dfw. I expect them to spend a lot next summer on adds of all types in the area. Southwest assaulted den with adds I think dfw will see the same thing coming.
 
Okie
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:42 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 22):
Unfortunately, not even close

Thanks again.

So I am really stuck on the big surprise related to timing. Not much else I can think of would be a big surprise.

Okie
 
Mir
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 17):
Are you faulting the airline for making a genious business decision?

No, I'm faulting the government for the decision.

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
AA, UA, DL, B6, NK anyone can operate out of KDAL at any time they please and can fly anywhere out of KDAL after 10-13-14 without a WA stop.

Sure, if they can get a gate. And the gates are all taken at the moment.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 21):
As noted, the amendment became effective long before Southwest was the business force it is today. Times were different then, and the law supported DFW.

As did WN at the time.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
william
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 14):
Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
Those restrictions went into place at the creation of DFW. WN should not have been granted the exemption at DAL. In fact I think that they should have been forced to give up much more to get the perimeter rule removed. WN was handed a monopoly at DAL with the removal of the perimeter relaxation. Imagine if this was AA, UA or DL with a fortress at DAL and WN wanted slots. The outrage from the WN side would be deafening.

Oh pleeez.....you mean that because WN outmaneuvered AA and the DFW people that you want them punished? I say they were strategically brilliant!!

No, he is actually right, but I blame the airlines for not getting assurances that Love's terminal would close. SWA just used loophole like any good business.

Not many posters here remember or were alive in the early 80s, the Wright Amendment protected SWA at Love. SWA made the law work for them , no one else really cared to fly to Love. Kudos to SWA for making it work and growing from it. But if Love was opened up in 1984 instead of 2014, SWA may not be around today.

[Edited 2013-10-12 21:06:50]
 
point2point
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:01 am

Beside the usual suspects of the current allowable routes that will probably see cuts once WN gets past the WA and flying to where it can, when it can, I would wonder if DEN would be affected in any way? Maybe DAL could serve some of the same traffic flows that DEN does, and WN would prefer to maybe build there and cut some at DEN? Or is there enough room at DAL to conduct a DEN sized operation, with DAL currently (per WIKI) showing 129 daily flights, and DEN at 171 daily flights?

Also, are night ops permitted (or will they be past WA) at DAL? Is there (or will there continue to be past WA) any sort of time curfews at DAL? Redeyes here any possibility?

I guess with WN already starting to make big, big hoopla a year in advance of the post WA era, I can see them really making an effort here starting - as well as stringing things along over the next year - to have a major national operation at DAL.

Now.... when is ATL and the FL merger going to be finished? I would think that in about 6-7 months is when the major DAL noise will be really starting. In the meantime, will they use the time between now and the time they start with post-WA DAL to be dedicated to ATL and FL?

 
 
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:06 am

The Wright Amendment is a shameful piece of protectionism buried in a completely unrelated bill.... Politics at it's worst.
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skywaymanaz
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:07 am

Quoting iMissPiedmont (Reply 16):
Has no one mentioned that PHX will be one of the first cities?

I'm sure it will be along with LAX, LAS, MDW & BWI. They'll be others for sure but those are so obvious I'd be shocked if they all aren't announced by late next summer or early fall.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:21 am

I would think BWI, MCO, MDW, LAS, PHX, LAX, OAK, ATL, and DEN any of these are very good guesses i think. Somewhere crAAZy like LGA could be really entertaining. Might be worth moving a slot or two to get direct service from LUV to NYC.
 
shnoob940
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:42 am

I'm an Aussie here, and I have no idea of the terms and conditions of the Wright Amendment..

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 2):
"Not only did the law bar flights beyond those states, but it also barred airlines from selling a ticket that would take a passenger to airports beyond those states even on a connecting or one-stop basis." Crazy!

I flew LAS-ELP-DAL.. Isn't that a one stop?
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iowaman
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:46 am

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 30):
I'm sure it will be along with LAX, LAS, MDW & BWI. They'll be others for sure but those are so obvious I'd be shocked if they all aren't announced by late next summer or early fall.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 31):
I would think BWI, MCO, MDW, LAS, PHX, LAX, OAK, ATL, and DEN any of these are very good guesses i think.

  

It will be interesting to see if smaller Southwest stations such as MSP, SLC, PHL, SMF, TUS, etc. will see non-stop DAL service. Gate space is certainly a factor in DAL, although in the medium term I think we could see a couple less flights on routes such as DAL-STL/MCI due the traffic being able to fly non-stop to places such as MDW. It will be interesting to see what happens to passenger numbers in DAL both from a connecting and O&D standpoint. Either way or a combination of the two I would expect the airport will see a modest increase in passenger numbers after the WA is lifted.

Edit: Another factor is no growth in system capacity until return on investment hits 15%. The majority of new route additions recently have been funded by cuts some where else in the system.

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 32):
flew LAS-ELP-DAL.. Isn't that a one stop?

If you had the option of staying on the aircraft in ELP, yes.

[Edited 2013-10-12 22:50:11]
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:02 am

Quoting shnoob940 (Reply 32):
Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 2):
"Not only did the law bar flights beyond those states, but it also barred airlines from selling a ticket that would take a passenger to airports beyond those states even on a connecting or one-stop basis." Crazy!

I flew LAS-ELP-DAL.. Isn't that a one stop?

Originally, you could not have flown LAX-ELP-DAL on a single ticket. You would have had to buy two separate tickets. One from LAX-ELP and a second one from ELP-DAL. At ELP, you would have had to reclaim your checked luggage and rechecked it onto the ELP-DAL leg.

As part of the 2006 agreement, through ticketing was finally allowed, meaning you could fly from DAL to other cities outside the Wright Amendment as long as you stopped and/or made a connection at another city that was within the Wright Amendment perimeter, like ELP.

I think WN will certainly offer n/s flights to DEN once the Wright Amendment is gone, because DEN is a good connection point to other cities out west. I also think BNA will benefit, because BNA is a relatively uncongested airport and could serve as a good connection point from DAL to the northeast.

LoneStarMike
 
Okie
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):

Quoting okie (Reply 18):AA, UA, DL, B6, NK anyone can operate out of KDAL at any time they please and can fly anywhere out of KDAL after 10-13-14 without a WA stop.
Sure, if they can get a gate. And the gates are all taken at the moment

The drop in gates from 32 to 20 came at AA's insistence to stop other competitors and limit WN's growth.
Late 2006 early 2007 AA reopened, again, flights with a vengeance to about everywhere WN flew out of KDAL.
They pretty much shut the whole operation down, again, in months and completely in less than a year.

When I flew through KDAL during that time frame the F/A's would announce when pushing back from the gate for everyone to wave out the window at the AA aircraft to show them what a full plane looks like.

So back to the "Big Surprise", if you considered that to mean a larger aircraft type like a 787 then I would think that of more of a Quantum Leap. I would doubt that is what WN is considering to deal with limited gates and flights to KDAL.

Okie
 
barney captain
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:33 am

Quoting cschleic (Reply 23):
Really? PDX is only about 50 miles further from HNL than LAX; SEA about 70 miles beyond that; Vancouver a bit further. Interestingly, SFO/OAK are closer than LAX is.

While it's not a milage concern, the winds can make the pacific Northwest to Hawaii an issue during certain times of the year.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting cschleic (Reply 23):
Interestingly, SFO/OAK are closer than LAX is


The Bay Area is farther west than southern California is south if that makes any sense. Doesn't seem like it and some map projections don't help either. That's why the early pionners across the Pacific used OAK like Kingsford-Smith and Earhart instead of SoCal.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 22):
The -800 can reliably make the West Coast to Hawaii (although even PDX/SEA can be a problem), but anything even remotely inland (LAS/PHX) is a non-starter.

AQ at one point was flying to PHX with a 737 but it was routed HNL-SNA-PHX. The nonstop would not have worked. HA had the bigger equipment to fly further inland.
 
airliner371
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:33 pm

I'm sure we will see some of MDW, PHX, LAX, OAK, SFO, SAN, DEN, LAS, MCO, FLL, TPA, ATL, BWI, LGA, DCA, BOS, SLC, MSP, SNA and SEA. These are all large and important cities that would benefit from having non-stop service to DAL. I am not saying all of these will be added, but these are not out of the picture. I think we will see a lot of -800s in DAL...

Quoting point2point (Reply 28):
I would wonder if DEN would be affected in any way? Maybe DAL could serve some of the same traffic flows that DEN does, and WN would prefer to maybe build there and cut some at DEN?

I don't think so because DAL is going to be mostly O&D where DEN has a good amount of connecting passengers. DEN should be fine.

[Edited 2013-10-13 06:41:24]
 
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kgaiflyer
Posts: 2581
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting tjh8402 (Reply 10):
You couldn't pay me to set foot on an NK flight haha
Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 11):
Same here! But I just thought I'd throw that out there!
Quoting iMissPiedmont (Reply 16):
Isn't Spirit rated a bit worse than Greyhound for travel?

And yet they make money.

Sure give the "It's all about big yields and more profits for the stockholders" crowd something to think about.
 
mcdu
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:06 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 33):
Edit: Another factor is no growth in system capacity until return on investment hits 15%. The majority of new route additions recently have been funded by cuts some where else in the system.

Spot on. With little to no growth all the additional DAL services will come from a cut somewhere else. I still feel the WA amendment should be kept in place. The real airlines paid a significant price to move to there's convenient DFW and to allow WN to have a hub where AA could still have a hub had they not been forced to leave is bad.

If a new Dallas airport were built today and AA and the rest of the legacy carriers were forced to move to the new airport That leaving DFW with the WA restrictions and another carrier other than WN decided to put a hub in the abandoned AA facilities. Should that new carrier get the restrictions lifted to allow them to operate a full up hub at the DFW facility?

This is in effect what happened with WN at DAL. The real carriers wre forced out to the new airport. WN like a cockroach took root in the forced abandoned facilities. Now they want to have the restrictions removed so they can compete from the location the rest of the airlines were forced to leave. All the former airlines should have been given their gates and facilities back and if they wanted to lease them to WN it should have been THEIR option.
 
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par13del
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Now if we could just get working on the repeal of the gate capping, or (even better) require WN to give up some some more gates in order to make things properly competitive at the airport.
Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
It wasn't, but I don't think they minded much. They got handed a virtual monopoly of the airport, an a legally-enforced one at that - that's pretty valuable.
Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
It's not about punishing WN, it's about actually "setting Love free", not chaining it to one carrier.
Quoting william (Reply 27):
Not many posters here remember or were alive in the early 80s, the Wright Amendment protected SWA at Love. SWA made the law work for them , no one else really cared to fly to Love. Kudos to SWA for making it work and growing from it. But if Love was opened up in 1984 instead of 2014, SWA may not be around today.
Quoting okie (Reply 35):
The drop in gates from 32 to 20 came at AA's insistence to stop other competitors and limit WN's growth.

AA, DAL & DFW officials for many years wanted WN gone from DAL and used their political influence to get the WA put in place which was supposed to punish WN, ensure that their business would either fail or the conditions force them to move to DFW.
However we want to look at it, they stayed at DAL and made a successful business out of it.
Now we get to the repeal and no question the conditions that AA, DFW and DAL officials decide to put in place for the repeal will now entrench and protect the incumbent carrier, a bit ironic that they now focus on the airport itself, something they should have done once the case was lost. The city of DAL could have done many things to the airport itself over the years to make it less attractive for commercial operations, but that is water under the bridge.

The gate restriction may be challenged as once the WA is gone if other carriers want in there is some difficulty. In principle I see the WN gates as no different that the slots at La Guardia and DC, if they already belong to a carrier how do you now tell them to give them up to others to allow competition?
 
sdoyon
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 40):
The real airlines

I'm sorry, I know you have an ax to grind with WN, but when you say stuff like this, you really, REALLY hurt any credibility you might have. Whether you like it or not, WN found a loophole and took advantage of it--you don't think AA, UA, or DL would have done the same thing?

In 1973, WN sued the city of Dallas for use of DAL, and, guess what? WN won on the grounds that as long as DAL stayed open as an airport, WN was free to use it. Would you argue that in any time since 1973, DAL stopped being an airport?

---

An aside, are the 20 gates still owned as follows: 16 WN, 2 UA, and 2 AA? Are any of them common use?
 
Flytravel
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:20 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 33):
It will be interesting to see if smaller Southwest stations such as MSP, SLC, PHL, SMF, TUS, etc. will see non-stop DAL service.


I think it might consider DAL service to EWR over PHL, since NK is at PHL-DFW is already trashing the yields for AA and US who fare match on advance purchase fares. If AA and US get approval to merge, then it might open prospects more. WN also fare matches on the advance purchase one-stops.

DCA/BWI and LGA are likely and EWR can be done, perhaps by removing one MDW flight or some other flight. I think DAL-SLC and even HOU-SLC makes sense.

[Edited 2013-10-13 07:43:56]
 
capejet
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:38 pm

An aside, are the 20 gates still owned as follows: 16 WN, 2 UA, and 2 AA? Are any of them common use?

I think if another carrier wants to serve Love Field (lets say Jet Blue) the other carriers have to try to accomodate them by leasing gates to them.
 
airliner371
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
I'm sure we will see some of

I would also add PHL to the list.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 42):
I'm sorry, I know you have an ax to grind with WN, but when you say stuff like this, you really, REALLY hurt any credibility you might have.

Spot on. Comparing WN to a cockroach and asking for credibility... he gets none now.
 
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par13del
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 40):
This is in effect what happened with WN at DAL. The real carriers wre forced out to the new airport. WN like a cockroach took root in the forced abandoned facilities.

No, what happened is that the city of DAL and DFW lost a case in court, do you really care why they lost?
The city of DEN built a new airport and had no problem closing down the old airport, is that because they have competent lawyers in Denver?

Quoting mcdu (Reply 40):
If a new Dallas airport were built today and AA and the rest of the legacy carriers were forced to move to the new airport That leaving DFW with the WA restrictions and another carrier other than WN decided to put a hub in the abandoned AA facilities. Should that new carrier get the restrictions lifted to allow them to operate a full up hub at the DFW facility?

Sure if we follow your logic, is that not what was done with DFW and DAL, if you did it once why not do it again.

I have one question, why does the owner of DAL not close it down, we know WN is not the owner so why is the city of DAL cowtowing to WN and keeping the airport open when they were / are an investor in DFW?
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:07 pm

The real purpose of the Wright Amendment and distance restrictions at DCA and LGA was to force airlines to use newer, further out airports that were underutilized. DFW had just been completed in 1974. IAD was a big white elephant for many years and you could literally sit there for hours without seeing an airplane movement. JFK (previously IDW) was not so much a distance problem but a facility issue. For many years IDW was housed in Quonsett huts before any of the permanent terminals were built.

These rules served to force airlines to use the "less desirable" facilities. DCA was a particular issue as with runways so short it was difficult if not impossible for long haul airplanes like the B707 and DC-8 to take off and land safely.

I have to laugh now at the terrible overcrowding at IAD, DFW and JFK with construction in constant motion and encroaching on land closer to homes seems to be routine. The original model of DFW with the "horseshoe" terminals has been abandoned in favor of a more traditional long terminal building. JFK has been totally rebuilt and IAD has seen the expansion of the original Saarinen terminal and the construction of remote gate building connected with an underground tram system.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
cschleic
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 47):
The original model of DFW with the "horseshoe" terminals has been abandoned in favor of a more traditional long terminal building. JFK has been totally rebuilt and IAD has seen the expansion of the original Saarinen terminal and the construction of remote gate building connected with an underground tram system.

Wasn't DFW built as an O&D facility in mind? The idea was you could park close to your gate. There were signs as you drove in with gate information. Of course, it became more of a hub operation and, now, the ATL format is seen as more efficient for that purpose. For JFK, seems like the rebuilding still is underway.
 
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par13del
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RE: Southwest Gets Ready For End Of Wright Amendment

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 47):
The real purpose of the Wright Amendment and distance restrictions at DCA and LGA was to force airlines to use newer, further out airports that were underutilized. DFW had just been completed in 1974.

DAC and LGA are totally different from the WA and it reasons, to me the only comparison is with the incumbent carriers when the slots went in place or the WA is lifted.

De-regulation, poorly constructed legal documents on the creation of DFW and the closing of DAL resulted in a lost court case forcing DAL authorities to remain open for commercial aviation, the WA was essentially a way to get around the law.