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A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:38 pm

Due to length here is part 14.

Previous thread: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 13 (by jetblueguy22 Aug 15 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
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TheRedBaron
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A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:33 pm

Keeping the topic on previous thread... I bet Airbus will make another assembly line to pump up the a350 production/delivery. Availability goes a long way when putting orders for Aircraft fleets, and the 777X will be a formidable adversary, it would be silly for Airbus to keep production constrained.

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A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:40 pm

I think for Airbus having another final assembly line is probably not the issue. The problems will start way back in the supply chain. The other factor is that to support current plans they are already vastly increasing the utilisation of the Beluga fleet. Can it be pushed further or will Airbus also need to bring forward Beluga 2?
 
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A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:03 pm

Planting a new building is the easy part, the supply chain must be able to meet the demand too.

And than we have the Beluga ... the current fleet utilization is 5000 flight hours per year which will be doubled to 10000 flight hours in 2017, the maximum it can handle.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2132dd0.jpg

http://oi39.tinypic.com/vgmpgz.jpg

Not only A350 demand will rise, Airbus is also looking at ways to increase A320 production beyond the current rate of 42 per month at the end of the decade. Introducing an A330 based Beluga is a must have, it would be able to carry a pair of A350 wings for example.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/nzm69y.jpg

[Edited 2013-10-13 12:04:50]
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ap305
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A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:17 pm

Bregier has given an interview to a German publication...

http://www.welt.de/print/wams/wirtsc...-werden-wir-in-Fuehrung-gehen.html

From what I understood through Google translate, a production increase seems far from certain. He seems to suggest it's better to not to increase now and reduce at a later date (although I am not sure he's specifically referring to the a350). Bregier also suggests that you have to wait till 2020 if you order now.

[Edited 2013-10-13 12:19:03]
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:42 pm

He talks about the production rate in general. The higher you increase the rate, the more you'll have to sell per year to maintain the rate in the long term. If you fail, you'll have the decrease the production rate again once the backlog is down. Learned from the past, those production rate ups and downs are very expensive. Hence they prefer a stable production rate.
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Planting a new building is the easy part, the supply chain must be able to meet the demand too.

That would be the greater challenge indeed if they will up the production rate further as currently planned. It is far from easy, but doable.  . But the demand must be there for a long time to justify further large investments on production capacity.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:35 am

Quoting StTim (Reply 2):
Can it be pushed further or will Airbus also need to bring forward Beluga 2?

Why not just build a spare Beluga? The limited amount of Beluga's available is surly a project risk for all Airbus aircraft production, if they loose one through misshap it would cause chaos to production schedules.
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
Learned from the past, those production rate ups and downs are very expensive. Hence they prefer a stable production rate.

Agreed. But if Airbus doens't increase the production rate, then Boeing will. Customers will receive some aircraft in the time frame of interest. This is the 'prisoner's dilemma,' where if both constrain output, both will do better. The first to ramp up production will do best.  
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 7):
Why not just build a spare Beluga?

That was my thought. Its time to consider building a number off of the A330.    A little late for 2017 delivery date, but one could be in service by 2018 or 2019.

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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:42 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
That was my thought. Its time to consider building a number off of the A330. A little late for 2017 delivery date, but one could be in service by 2018 or 2019.

Lightsaber

They definatly need to go A330 at some point but if they dusted off the A300-600 Beluga plans they could knock one up within a year, the basic airframe could be purchased for scrap value I would think.
BV
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:15 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
Agreed. But if Airbus doens't increase the production rate, then Boeing will. Customers will receive some aircraft in the time frame of interest. This is the 'prisoner's dilemma,' where if both constrain output, both will do better. The first to ramp up production will do best.

Agreed, they'll have to find the sweet spot between market demand and a stable production rate.
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:24 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 1):
Keeping the topic on previous thread... I bet Airbus will make another assembly line to pump up the a350 production/delivery. Availability goes a long way when putting orders for Aircraft fleets, and the 777X will be a formidable adversary, it would be silly for Airbus to keep production constrained.

Just a thought: Could they build a line in Mobile?
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:23 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Just a thought: Could they build a line in Mobile?

Of course they can. But the FAL capacity, and where they are located, is the "small problem" compared to getting the complete supply chain ready for un upped production rate for the A350. Especially quality issues and financial issues play a strong role here.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:31 am

Mobile is quite far away for Beluga's... (current and projected A330-200 based...
Can be ship in maybe like A380 parts...
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:47 am

The KC-45 FAL was going to be in Mobile and Airbus was considering moving A330-200F and A330MRTT production there, as well, to free up TLS to pump out more passenger A330s and the plan was to use sea shipping for parts delivery.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:00 pm

Tom Enders has spoken in Australia and commented on the A350. He is full of confidence (from an Airinsight article about the 350 program):

http://airinsight.com/2013/10/14/imp...source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Also today, in Sydney, EADS CEO Tom Enders spoke at Australia’s National Aviation Press Club: “We are on track to deliver the first aircraft at the end of 2014. It’s going to be a great aircraft.” He went on to say “The 350 is a bit behind the 787 in terms of schedule,” and noted that 750 A350s have been sold. “I was quite pleased that we were trailing the 787 because by taking our time we could learn some of the lessons from that project,” he said.

By saying "it is going to be a great aircraft" he is adding to he's comments of before that testing "is going very, very well". He can't say like that unless the performance data is on spec or better...

[Edited 2013-10-14 07:01:51]
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 15):
Tom Enders has spoken in Australia and commented on the A350. He is full of confidence (from an Airinsight article about the 350 program):

  

Now the next big thing to watch is MSN2, the first A350 with a real cabin and a revised livery. It's now outside at P18, MSN3 flew 11 weeks (2.75 months) after roll out to P18 thus MSN2 should join the test fleet in the middle of January (maybe the 14th  ).
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 16):
Now the next big thing to watch is MSN2, the first A350 with a real cabin and a revised livery. It's now outside at P18, MSN3 flew 11 weeks (2.75 months) after roll out to P18 thus MSN2 should join the test fleet in the middle of January (maybe the 14th ).

Do you think MSN2 will take this length of time to prep before joining the test fleet? I understand a cabin has to be installed, but will this take the same amount of time as installing and setting up all the test instrumentation MSN1 & 3 have?

D.

P.S Maybe the cabin has already been installed. Does anyone know?
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting trent900 (Reply 17):
Do you think MSN2 will take this length of time to prep before joining the test fleet? I understand a cabin has to be installed, but will this take the same amount of time as installing and setting up all the test instrumentation MSN1 & 3 have?

The cabin was installed in P30. The A350 cabin can be installed simultaneous with the indoor ground tests.

Have a look how it works:
http://youtu.be/W0jlu0ghNIg
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:37 pm

One would hope that the timings for the non cabin install stations will be reducing as Airbus learn the lessons from the previous planes. This seems to be the case so far.

I know that the business and first seats are often installed late in the process due to cost issues so perhaps that will take some of the time associated with the instrument load. This will of course be a first fit and so I expect airbus to take their time and learn how they can go quicker next time.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:44 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 19):
I know that the business and first seats are often installed late in the process due to cost issues so perhaps that will take some of the time associated with the instrument load.

Expensive items like business class seats, first class seats and engines will eventually be installed as late as possible in P20 to avoid huge stock costs.

But the prototypes may differ a bit in this process. It's possible the business and first class seats have been installed in P30 already, or maybe they will be installed in P20 later, or in C63 together with the engines.
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
The cabin was installed in P30. The A350 cabin can be installed simultaneous with the indoor ground tests.

Have a look how it works:
http://youtu.be/W0jlu0ghNIg



Thanks for that Karel, don't know how I missed that one! Excellent animation.

In the mean time are we sticking to the 11 weeks from the start of P18?

D.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting trent900 (Reply 21):
In the mean time are we sticking to the 11 weeks from the start of P18?

We do    And the Airbus schedule also shows first flight in January:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/5d8fnb.jpg
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:51 pm

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 13):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
The cabin was installed in P30. The A350 cabin can be installed simultaneous with the indoor ground tests.

cool video, thanks!
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting macc (Reply 23):
When do you expect her to fly?

January 2014, see schedule above  
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
January 2014, see schedule above  

To keep fully in sync with MSN001 & MSN003 it should fly on January 14th, 2014.  . Great video btw.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:36 pm

The A350 blog claims Airbus will unveil the new livery on MSN2 in the coming weeks. It also says the following:

Quote:
In the pictures currently available, the “A350” words are painted in white letters in the Vertical Tail and will be highlighted on a black background. The vertical tail plane for MSN2 has been “protected” after been painted and until the complete aircraft goes to the paint shop, we will not be able to watch the new livery. The wing and the horizontal tail will remain in grey-white color as for the other prototypes and the new black painting scheme will probably be applied to the half of the fuselage, being the rear part of the fuselage in black and more & more white until arriving to the nose fuselage that will be in the “standard” white.

Winglets, one of the identity brand of the aircraft will probably be painted in this “carbon-fiber” black. And the nose fuselage will be identical than the other prototypes.

The black painting would simulate carbon fiber structure as shown in this picture:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sXLymn6mtfI/Ubzb-475XQI/AAAAAAAAFQ8/ByWgJhxYcbo/s1600/image.jpg

Last but not least, it says MSN2 will be the first A350 joining the A330s in P20.

http://www.bloga350.blogspot.nl/2013...-livery-for-msn2-first-flight.html
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):
The black painting would simulate carbon fiber structure as shown in this picture:

That could give a very nice effect. But let's wait and see how it really looks after MSN002 has left the paint shop.
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:57 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 27):
That could give a very nice effect. But let's wait and see how it really looks after MSN002 has left the paint shop.

Carbon effects are nice as long as you don't use too much of it.

I wonder if Airbus will really unveil it in the coming weeks as the blog claims. I think they will town her from paint to P20 during the night.
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:51 am

MSN5 will be the first A350 with nickel-cadmium batteries.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...euxieme-a350-d-essai-d-airbus.html
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:04 am

...and according to TLS local newspaper La Depeche, citing an Airbus internal memo, MSN4 will be painted in Qatar livery in the front fuselage, while the rear fuselage will sport the Airbus livery (don't ask me how they will combine those two, the article is not any more specific than that)

link in French:
http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2013...50-la-peinture-qui-fait-jaser.html
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:12 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
MSN5 will be the first A350 with nickel-cadmium batteries.

I am curious when they will switch back to Lithium-Ion batteries again.   Maybe in 1-2 years?
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:13 am

G´day

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
MSN5 will be the first A350 with nickel-cadmium batteries.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...euxieme-a350-d-essai-d-airbus.html

Someone please send a more recent picture of the A 350 to La Tribune. The picture they show in the article is the warmed over A 330 iteration of the A 350, that makes me question how dated their article is   


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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:31 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 30):
(don't ask me how they will combine those two, the article is not any more specific than that)

Two possibilities I can think of:

1. The normal "eurowhite" Airbus livery with Airbus tail and the (red) Qatar titles on the front.
2. A Airbus/Qatar hybrid livery like this old KLM/Northwest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No...M_DC-10_hybrid_livery_Spijkers.jpg
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:35 am

Might be something similar to this:


380 004 F WWDD Airbus A380 861 Prototype Lufthansa by bep0503, on Flickr
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:22 pm

Here's another example:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui



[Edited 2013-10-17 05:24:14]
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:38 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 35):
Here's another example:

That's what I meant... Airbus eurowhite with Qatar titles
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 2):
Can it be pushed further or will Airbus also need to bring forward Beluga 2?
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Introducing an A330 based Beluga is a must have, it would be able to carry a pair of A350 wings for example.
Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 13):
Mobile is quite far away for Beluga's

How about an A340-500 based Beluga? Airbus will be receiving five of them from SQ over the coming years. An A340-500 'Beluga' would no doubt give better payload/range performance than an A330 'Beluga'. And the costs of certifying/developing it would presumably be similar?
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:16 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 37):
How about an A340-500 based Beluga? Airbus will be receiving five of them from SQ over the coming years. An A340-500 'Beluga' would no doubt give better payload/range performance than an A330 'Beluga'. And the costs of certifying/developing it would presumably be similar?

An A340-500/600 based Beluga does not meet all requirements.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2rr1ac3.jpg

[Edited 2013-10-17 07:16:40]
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):
An A340-500/600 based Beluga does not meet all requirements.

I have never seen that graph before. Very enlightening to see the outcome. Good post!
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:43 pm

Airchive.com will travel to TLS next Monday for an update on the A350 program. Expect Tweet updates and photos.

http://twitter.com/airchive/status/390917052581441536
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ap305
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
Airchive.com will travel to TLS next Monday for an update on the A350 program. Expect Tweet updates and photos.

I suppose this will be a large media briefing rather than a solo visit by archive.com?... Should be an interesting week as the news and information starts rolling in. 

[Edited 2013-10-17 13:12:39]
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting ap305 (Reply 41):
I suppose this will be a large media briefing rather than just a visit by archive.com?

Airchive travels a lot, perhaps he want to try the new A350 visitor tour   But a media briefing sounds more likely, I agree.
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 42):
Airchive travels a lot, perhaps he want to try the new A350 visitor tour   But a media briefing sounds more likely, I agree.

It will for sure be interesting to see the tweets coming along.  
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:02 pm

Tomorrows briefing starts at 8am local time.
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Bogi
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting Airliners.net:
Welcome back banned!

You are now checked-in. Enjoy your flight with Airliners.net!

 

interesting news
http://www.aerotelegraph.com/qatar-airways-sponsert-prototyp-airbus-a350



[Edited 2013-10-20 08:14:42]
 
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting Bogi (Reply 45):
interesting news

This was reported earlier, MSN4 will be partly painted in the Qatar livery.
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:09 pm

MSN6 delivery set for September 2014.

http://twitter.com/AvWeekFlottau/status/392335324334292992

[Edited 2013-10-21 10:09:32]
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:12 pm

That sounds very nice
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RE: A350 Prototypes And Production Thread Part 14

Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:12 pm

> MSN5 FAL start has slipped a bit, first flight May 2014
> MSN4 first flight February 2014
> MSN2 first flight February 2014

http://airchive.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/20131021_114049.jpg

http://airchive.com/blog/2013/10/21/a350/

[Edited 2013-10-21 10:16:51]
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