BW424
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New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:51 pm

Greetings once again to all A.net patrons and welcome to the 107th instalment of this centurion thread.

With recent developments in the region, we see our regional carriers entering new seasons, not only in terms of reduced passenger levels, but also with respect to their overall strategic policies as they move forward. We've seen DAE close its doors, LI's shareholder governments seriously question the viability of the carrier under its current model and BW perform a serious financial diagnostic and internal executive purge. Regardless of the ups and downs, the Caribbean aviation industry has its own unique flavor that has caused all of us that follow this thread to persist with keeping current with the roller-coaster affairs of the region.



******NEWS FEED******
DAE officially closed its doors August 26th/27th 2013
AA discontinues JFK-BGI eff. 15/01/2014 leaving only B6 on the route
BW removes CFO Ramnarine
BW advertises regionally and internationally to fill the critical positions of CEO, COO and CFO
CU first to operate Antonov 158s in region (HAV-CUN & HAV-NAS)
GCAA BW 523 report expected to point to pilot error for cause of crash.
ABM Air of MNI upgrades IT infrastructure to offer online booking.
BA to increase KIN to 4x weekly, PUN to 3x weekly and ANU to 6x weekly for Summer '14 with B772ER
LI takes delivery of first ATR-42-600 (V2-LID) 02/09/2013
BW's fuel subsidy no more as of 01/10/2013
BW and FlyJam denied 5th freedom rights to operate GEO-JFK-GEO rotations
LI CEO Capt. Ian Brunton resigns from his post with the regional carrier
B6 to start daily service to POS from both JFK and FLL with A320
Insel Air expects final approval for nonstop AUA-MIA in Nov. 2013

****MEMBER NOTES*****

817Dreamliiner heads back to MAN via SVG Air and VS



Happy Posting!
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
BW424
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:55 pm

Well, the TSA has approved new procedures to handle in-transit GEO pax at POS. This will hopefully make the intransit experience much less stressful.

"Screening for Guyanese while transiting T&T to end Nov 1st"

"The disembarking and security screening at Trinidad’s Piarco International Airport of Guyanese passengers in-transit to the US will be something of the past effective November 1, 2013, according to a release today from the Cheddi Jagan International Airport, Timehri.

The release said that the United States of America Transport Security Administration (TSA) has approved the request for an alternative procedure to be applied for Guyanese passengers transiting in Port of Spain (POS).

Robeson Benn, Minister of Transport said he is pleased with the decision."

http://www.stabroeknews.com/2013/new...hile-transiting-tt-to-end-nov-1st/
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:15 pm

Thanks for starting the new thread BW424. In the member notes or news section I would like to add that I took photos of the first 747-8 in Curacao 

Also, Arke (previously known as Arkefly) showed its new name and livery on its long haul network on their flight to Curacao which shows how important Curacao is to Arke  Smile

A388

[Edited 2013-10-13 17:14:22]
 
BW424
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:32 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 2):
Thanks for starting the new thread BW424. In the member notes or news section I would like to add that I took photos of the first 747-8 in Curacao 

Also, Arke (previously known as Arkefly) showed its new name and livery on its long haul network on their flight to Curacao which shows how important Curacao is to Arke

You're welcome A388. I'm sorry I forgot to add those notes my friend. I'll be sure next time to double check to ensure everything is covered.
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:22 am

No problem BW424, that's why we are all here for, to help each other  

Cheers my friend,

A388
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting BW424 (Reply 1):

Problem is that even on southbound flights there appear to have been instances when Guyanese had to go through checks before boarding for GEO. Even on the 483 instransit passengers have had to do this, even though its the same plane which continued to GEO. This has driven some people to PY.

Does LI make passengers go through these checks at BGI?
 
BW424
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:07 am

"Ramiz: ‘DAE was murdered’ "

"The local airline Dutch Antilles Express (DAE) was on its way to implement its fourth phase of the project of recovery. Finally all hurdles were overcome with the intentional delays of the Curacao Civil Aviation Authorities (CCAA) under the grip of Giselle Hollander. The airline had received all 3 ATR’s 72-200 and its entire 3 MD 83 fleet. With its 3 F100, the airline had 9 aircrafts that would have made its expansion possible. For months, the company was hiring staff and crews to be well prepared for what promised to be an excellent last 6 month of 2013.

Today the airline is history and close to 50 thousands passengers were stranded unable to travel to the U.S. alone and over 21 thousands passengers were stranded from August 30 to December 2013. In Venezuela between 25 thousands passengers with booked and purchased tickets but were unable to travel due to INAC’s sanctions on the airline and the rest to Santo Domingo, Aruba, Bonaire, Sint Maarten and Surinam."

http://www.curacaochronicle.com/columns/ramiz-dae-was-murdered/


Very interesting read. What do our well-informed Dutch-Caribbean friends here on the forum make of this article? I honesty believe DAE dug its own grave; helter-skelter expansion with egos before business sense. This is only my opinion.

On another note, CM's fares for POS-PTY seem to be steep ($700-900). They must certianly be enjoying the increased traffic between POS and Latin America with all the trade agreements that are now coming into play. I can only imagine the great yields on the route. I won't be surprised to see it go from 12x weekly to 2x daily soon.

[Edited 2013-10-14 17:16:49]
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LimaFoxTango
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:37 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 5):
Does LI make passengers go through these checks at BGI?

LI pax who transit BGI must go thru security just like they would thru ANU. Haven't heard any complaints about either.

V2-LIH spotted. Clearly this one breaks the reg sequence. Should be in ANU before month end.

http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=415700
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:55 am

Quoting BW424 (Thread starter):
BW and FlyJam denied 5th freedom rights to operate GEO-JFK-GEO rotations

Why was BW denied the GEO-JFK route? If I am not mistaken BW is the flag carrier of Guyana?
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:52 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 7):
V2-LIH spotted. Clearly this one breaks the reg sequence. Should be in ANU before month end.

http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=415700

Interesting. Planespotters had this one listed to go to AZUL. Im actually curious as to why they aren't going in sequence with the registrations.
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
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viasa
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:02 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 9):
Im actually curious as to why they aren't going in sequence with the registrations.

Perhaps msn 1008, 1010 and another ATR42-600s will be V2-LIE, V2-LIF and V2-LIG...
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting BW424 (Reply 6):
Very interesting read. What do our well-informed Dutch-Caribbean friends here on the forum make of this article? I honesty believe DAE dug its own grave; helter-skelter expansion with egos before business sense. This is only my opinion.

I agree with you. DAE expanded to rapidly. A correction that needs to be made, DAE never received more than one ATR72. There was always just one ATR72 flying for them, nothing more. The other two never arrived in Curacao. The three Fokker 100's they had never flew at the same time. In most cases only one was flying. The other one was parked inside the hangar most of the time and the third one that got painted in their new livery was abroad all that time for maintenance.

Cheers,

A388
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):

I guess flag carrier status stands for nothing with this issue. Begs the question, what does it stand for?

GUYAIR707
 
2travel2know2
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:14 am

Quoting BW424 (Reply 6):
On another note, CM's fares for POS-PTY seem to be steep ($700-900). They must certianly be enjoying the increased traffic between POS and Latin America with all the trade agreements that are now coming into play. I can only imagine the great yields on the route. I won't be surprised to see it go from 12x weekly to 2x daily soon.

I could think that would happen quite soon.
I'd like to see PTY-NAS upgraded to daily soon too.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
BW424
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:21 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
Why was BW denied the GEO-JFK route? If I am not mistaken BW is the flag carrier of Guyana?

Very good question. I would think that BW can now appeal this decision seeing that the case of unfair competition due to subsidized fuel is now void. As the designated flag carrier of Guyana, BW should be able to start and terminate nonstop flights in GEO without an intermediate point before or after GEO.

I guess things will play out once the new executive is in place.

For the time being, I see CAL is cleaning up their external image somewhat with their aircraft. All the "graffiti" that was on the 738s such as the 50th independence logo and the unreadable "Trinidad and Tobago-Home of the steel pan" have been removed from the entire fleet. This is a subtle but great move of intent. CAL is no longer solely a Trini carrier as it largely serves both Jamaican and Guyanese interests. The 50th independence logo was in very poor taste. It not only looked awful, but it also excluded Jamaica which was also celebrating 50 years of independence in the same month. It would have been an commendable corporate act of goodwill if they did a combined logo or even a logo jet to represent both T&T and Jamaica.

Anyway, this is all in the past under very poor management. Logojets and special liveries should be left untouched till the airline re-stabilizes itself.
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
andrefranca
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 13):
I'd like to see PTY-NAS upgraded to daily soon too.

I'd love to see a CM PTY-PLS or a PTY-GCM   or one day who knows PTY-BDA?

Quote:
The majority of the 300 plus employees are still out of a job many lost their homes and today are sleeping in their cars.

oh my gosh, that's so sad.

Well I can't say much cause I only had the chance to fly twice with DAE and on both occasions the service in general was not that good if compared to INSEL, but anyways...

They only said they'd fly to MAO I also though it was a little ambitious, even though PY does some charter flights to AUA from here.

I'm concerned about the airline industry in the caribbean! strange tides coming closer!  Sad

[Edited 2013-10-15 18:37:50]
 
BW424
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:42 am

"Sky Bahamas Loses $123,000 In Weekend Sick-Out"

"By KHRISNA VIRGIL"

Tribune Staff Reporter

kvirgil@tribunemedia.net

SKY Bahamas lost more than $123,000 when 12 of the company’s pilots staged a sick out over the weekend, confirmed CEO Captain Randy Butler yesterday.

According to Butler the airline was left scrambling to find alternative measures to accommodate scores of passengers when the pilots did not report to work on Saturday.

He believes that the pilots have been misguided by a newly formed union, the Bahamian Pilots Alliance (BPA), which is trying to “strong arm” Sky Bahamas’ management into granting requests that are unrealistic."

http://www.tribune242.com/news/2013/...mas-loses-123000-weekend-sick-out/
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:32 pm

Hi guys,

These are my latest photos added to the website:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roger Cannegieter - Curacao Aviation Photography
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roger Cannegieter - Curacao Aviation Photography




I like the 747-8 cockpit 

A388
 
2travel2know2
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 15):
I'd love to see a CM PTY-PLS or a PTY-GCM   or one day who knows PTY-BDA?

Except for PTY-GCM, numbers might be very thin, but probably because the type of passenger demand, those routes could be viable.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 7):

LI has its own terminal at BGI so that passengers do not have the inconvenience that occurs at POS. ANU is a small terminal so the recheck is not a problem either as no extra walking is entailed.

Who ever designed POS didnt understand its potrential as a hub.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):

The US doesnt recognize BW or FJ as flag carriers because Guyana doesnt have any ownership in either, nor is either carrier based in GEO. It did before with GND and BGI and ANU as BWIA and/or JM had turn around rights at those points w/o having to proceed, or operate via their main bases.

DL sabotaged this move for GEO. Yes they hid it behind this group, but its clear that the only US carrier interested in what happens on the JFK GEO is DL, and DL doesnt want any competition on that route, aside from fly by night charters that is.

Canada recognizes flag carrier status under the "community of interests" principle. FJ is a Jamaica airline, BW is a Trinidadian/Jamaican airline and both nations share CARICOM membership with Guyana.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 14):

Dont know if an appeal by BW is possible, as I believe that GoTT has already told the USDOT that the fuel subsidy is no longer in existence. That was a smoke screen as FJ would not have also being banned from doing JFK GEO JFK flights. The US DOT does not want community of interest rights to be extended to GEO, even though it was applied to GND, BGI, UVF, and ANU in times past.

Well lets hope that this "new" CAL management addresses issues raised by both the govt of Guyana and of the Guyanese public at large...working with the GOTT in doing so (POS needs to become more intransit friendly, using PTY as an example of how this can be done). Its good that TSA required rechecks no longer seem necessary, but a smoother way of rechecking passengers switching from BW to BW should be worked out. Even LI seems to handle this bettere at BGI and ANU than BW does at POS.


In the mean while rumors exist that DL is negotiating to get back to GEO. Given that they had nothing against BW until the latter began JFK GEO nonstops (BW was already benefitting from the fuel subsidy when DL began its GEO service) the catalyst for their tantrums was when BW was given flag carrier status. Guyana is rumored to be actively considering withdrawing this flag carrier status, using the high levels of dissatisfaction of the passengers with both BW and POS, as an excuse. The consensus is that Guyanese are not benefitting from this, and if this blocks service by other carriers, then it is not necessary.

Quoting A388 (Reply 11):

Has Insel expanded to fill the gap of DAE? On routes to Venezuela especially?

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 13):
Quoting BW424 (Reply 6):

Wonder what the final destination of all these POS PTY passengers are? Maybe if its elsewhere in Latin America, and trhe volumes are sufficient, BW can start nonstop service, resulting in lower fares.
 
Beeski
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:16 pm

The FIFA World Cup trophy is on STX today.
Being flown to Brazil in a custom painted MD-80 (not sure which flavor Mad Dog)
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 19):
Quoting A388 (Reply 11):


Has Insel expanded to fill the gap of DAE? On routes to Venezuela especially?

I don't know if they have expanded their services to Venezuela but I don't think so. I'm not sure if the bilateral agreement allows them to expand but I have heard that many foreign airlines who want to increase their number of flights to Venezuela can't do that because the INAC prohibits them. I don't know to what extend this is actually true but I have seen that the prices of tickets from CCS are very high. A few years ago I checked for a flight from CCS to ATL (just for fun) and got a ticket price of 1400 USD on DL so that may be caused by a limited number of available seats but that's just my take on it. Who knows, I may be totally wrong with this so I stand corrected if this is the case.

A388
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 21):

Are seats readily available to SXM, MIA, and SDQ, I think being other popular routes which DAE flew?

One thing about DAE's expansion is that they might have been adding un needed capacity.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:26 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 18):

Except for PTY-GCM, numbers might be very thin, but probably because the type of passenger demand, those routes could be viable.

Doesn't CM codeshare with KX on its PTY flight.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 19):
Wonder what the final destination of all these POS PTY passengers are?

Lots of O&d to PTY. And not an insignificant amount are doing POS-PTY-SAL-BZE on a CM-AV combo.....
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:40 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):

This because BW wants to expand into Latin America and seems to be talking about PTY. Lacking the hub that CM has at that airport I am wondering how competitive they will be. But if there is so much O&D then maybe they can do this, and introduce some competition. Dont know why those fares must be so high.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 24):
This because BW wants to expand into Latin America and seems to be talking about PTY. Lacking the hub that CM has at that airport I am wondering how competitive they will be. But if there is so much O&D then maybe they can do this, and introduce some competition. Dont know why those fares must be so high.

Speaking from personal experience, once Caribbean folk discover the shopping in PTY (like the rest of Lat America) that ttraffic starts to grow exponentially.

There is a saying ....half of latin america shops in MIA, the other half in PTY. POS folks are starting to discover that.

and that PTY free zone...supplies A LOT of stores in the Caribbean region
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 25):

So BW can start POS PTY, especially of they feed PBM, BGI, and GEO. Maybe more like 3X per week. Based on seats available more Trinis shop in PTY than Jamaicans.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:59 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
So BW can start POS PTY, especially of they feed PBM, BGI, and GEO. Maybe more like 3X per week. Based on seats available more Trinis shop in PTY than Jamaicans.

POS-GND-PTY instead of POS-PTY non-stop may help the yields..
Even with feed from PBM, GEO and BGI thru not-so-connecting-passenger-friendly POS, if it's a thrice-weekly service, it'd be such a minor competitor to a twice daily PTY-POS.
Now if BW is allow to fly something like POS-CCS-PTY or POS-CCS-KIN-PTY, then we're talking about a whole different kind of route and traffic potential.
How about scissors-hub KIN, POS-CCS-KIN/KIN-MIA and POS-MAR-KIN/KIN-PTY. There might actually be some oil-related traffic demand between MAR and POS.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:03 am

Hey guyanam,

What's up. Seats to SXM and SDQ I think can always be found on Insel Air. MIA can be full and AA what I have seen is over booked practically the entire year. PBM might have some room for more flights but not that much as far as I know. Other routes aren't that popular.

Regarding the POS-PTY route, are most passengers coming from POS or from PTY? When DAE operated flights from CUR to PTY the flight wasn't performing well but since CM started the flight they are doing a better job since bring passengers from abroad to CUR which of course is a much bigger market.


Cheers,

A388
 
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yellowtail
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 27):
POS-CCS-PTY

Now that would be a goldmine.....CCS-PTY mints money and CM is desperate for more frequencies.

Quoting A388 (Reply 28):
When DAE operated flights from CUR to PTY the flight wasn't performing well but since CM started the flight they are doing a better job since bring passengers from abroad to CUR which of course is a much bigger market.

It is always easy to fill the first 50% of the plane with O&D...it is piecing the rest together with connecting feed that makes or breaks the route. That was the difference between DAE And CM
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
andrefranca
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 25):
There is a saying ....half of latin america shops in MIA, the other half in PTY

There's some truth on that but PTY is getting expensive! #medon'tlikeit! :/
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 9):
Interesting. Planespotters had this one listed to go to AZUL. Im actually curious as to why they aren't going in sequence with the registrations

Planespotters now has it listed correctly. I'm told the next -42 might be LIF so regs may not be out of sequence after all.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:26 am

You are right yellowtail. That is precisely what I meant. This is also why I asked if the majority of the passengers come from POS (local traffic) or not. What are the growth projections on this route both for the local market and the international markets? What percentage of the Florida market does CM steal away from the direct flights now or how big will that be in the coming years? What new markets has CM opened up so far and potential is their for the coming years? Will a second daily flight stimulate all this even more or make new possibilities possible? These are just a few questions Trinidad needs to analyze (or have an external consultant to the route analysis and potential).

A388
 
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yellowtail
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 29):
There's some truth on that but PTY is getting expensive! #medon'tlikeit! :/

So is Miami.....Houston seems to be the new USA shopping place as of late.

Quoting A388 (Reply 32):
This is also why I asked if the majority of the passengers come from POS (local traffic) or not. What are the growth projections on this route both for the local market and the international markets? What percentage of the Florida market does CM steal away from the direct flights now or how big will that be in the coming years? What new markets has CM opened up so far and potential is their for the coming years? Will a second daily flight stimulate all this even more or make new possibilities possible? These are just a few questions Trinidad needs to analyze

Well, why would I tell you this if

Quoting A388 (Reply 32):
(or have an external consultant to the route analysis and potential).

BW would pay me to do this...... 
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 33):
BW would pay me to do this......

Haha, okay. All the best to you guys.

A388
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 27):

I was of the impression that foreign carriers, interesting in developing markets out of Venezuela are looking for problems. First being delays in getting route rights to operate to third countries. Second being problems in getting cash from fares paid in Venezuela out of that country. So I do not think that CCS offers much for BW, even though the market potential might be there, beyond the POS CCS market. .

CM seems to have KIN PTY under control, and BW is not that looved in Jamaica as we know. It does enjoy some patriotic patronage out of POS, so might snatch some business from CM, with fares being as high as they are, If the O&D crowd includes a lot of shoppers I cant imagine that they wouldnt want lower fares, especially given that fares to MIA are usually quite competitive.

I have a notion that Jamaicans will always prefer MIA, so the KIN PTY market is small. But because MIA is as far from POS as PTY is, E/Caribbean travelers might be more open to exploring PTY, if it is competitive. Also as a new vacation destaination with its casinos and other entertainment, and that whole Panama Canal thing. But the fares are high and only POS enjoys direct service. But clearly the increasing difficulties and expense of getting US visas might encourage some to look elsewhere, just as SJU has lost out to SXM.

BW should explore this segment, and improve its intransits situation in POS to feed GEO, GND, BGI, and maybe SLU. Indeed as more Caribbean islands are looking to build tourism outside of the traditional North America/Europe, Brazil with its huge population, is one that many look to, in addition to Russia, another BRIC nation. Maybe POS can serve as a hub, with subsidies until the route becomes viable, this based on building Brand Caribbean in Braail as the Caribbean Tourism Org always aspires to do.

Quoting A388 (Reply 28):

I think that most on the POS PTY are POS originating.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 33):

BW probably should. Given their problems they cannot afford to get into routes, just because they sound nice. Is PTY feasible for BW, given their lack of connectivity to points beyond, unlike CM? Are their markets in Latin America that can be developed if direct routes were established?

BW has exhausted its easy routes and, if they wish to expand, will need to go into second tier markets in the USA, like Wash DC, or into Latin America. Unless they jump into the NGI JFK now I do not see scope for them to expand their networks from other carib islands to the USA.
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:20 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 35):
Quoting A388 (Reply 28):


I think that most on the POS PTY are POS originating.
Quoting guyanam (Reply 35):
Is PTY feasible for BW, given their lack of connectivity to points beyond, unlike CM?

I think that you answered your own question here. If the market between POS and PTY indeed is mostly POS originating, than Caribbean Airlines doesn't need connectivity...

Quoting guyanam (Reply 35):
Are their markets in Latin America that can be developed if direct routes were established?

... if Caribbean Airlines wants to develop Latin American markets, than they need to work on their connectivity through POS, yes. The problem here is like you also said yourself, CM is much bigger and much more powerful in these markets.


A388
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 36):

Once BW and POS improve the intransit process then IF there is sufficient market demand between POS/BGI/SLU/GEO, and a NARROW range of Latin destinations (PTY possibly being one GRU/GIG being another) then they can start service. BW will NEVER be able to develop a route structure based on a strong hub as CM has done, and if they think that they can they dream. The intent should be to strengthen particular routes by adding feed, with the assumption that a market doesnt exist for point to point service. So routes to PTY, or GRU, or GIG will not depend on POS alone, but can be enhanced by passengers connecting from other nearby points.

A thorough market/route analysis shoukd be undertaken by BW to determine whether these routes are feasible, as it is not obvious that they are. Indeed the degree of O&D traffic between POS and PTY should be determined and not left to conjecture. Maybe travel agents in POS/BGI/GEO/SLU/PBM can be polled to see if they think that PTY can be used as a shopping destination in addition to MIA, taking into account that there are no visa requirements. Certainly SXM has developed this trade, at the expense of SJU, largely due to the US visa issue. Duty free shopping is always a major draw.

Also if certain govts think that they can develop a tourism market in Brazil, as an example, but are unable to interest GOL, or do not want to be totally dependent on GOL then a subsidy, combined with extensive brand image development for the caribbean at large, combined with specific promotional activities to develop demand for the route can be taken. This is a pie in the sky dream because Caribbean countries lack trust for each other to embark on such a venture, but if they seriiosly wish to develop a Brazilian market they will have to. Only a few Caribbean destinations are on the radar of most Brazilian tourists.
 
andrefranca
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:02 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 35):
Brazil with its huge population, is one that many look to

It is but there are several things to take into account, first: Brazilians may be latino but we think/behave very differently if compared to spanish america. We may be a portuguese colony but we have too much french values/influence if ever noticed, we borrow a lot of french words/laws/thoughts and so on, even the portuguese can't figure it out sometimes. I'm able to speak french cause I was taught in french as well at school.

My point here is: Many many Corps catering to latin america made huge mistakes when they entered our market, the most "infamous" one: selling products with description only in spanish.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 37):
So routes to PTY, or GRU, or GIG will not depend on POS alone, but can be enhanced by passengers connecting from other nearby points.

I doubt BW will make a move to serve Brazil on the following decades.

1- most of the people here are clueless of trinidad and tobago
2- BW doesn't have an image here
3- people are afraid of geting stranded and won't be able to speak english, therefore no assistance.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 37):
Also if certain govts think that they can develop a tourism market in Brazil, as an example, but are unable to interest GOL, or do not want to be totally dependent on GOL then a subsidy, combined with extensive brand image development for the caribbean at large, combined with specific promotional activities to develop demand for the route can be taken. This is a pie in the sky dream because Caribbean countries lack trust for each other to embark on such a venture, but if they seriiosly wish to develop a Brazilian market they will have to. Only a few Caribbean destinations are on the radar of most Brazilian tourists.

I keep saying the popular caribbean destination in brazil are the 50-60's classic ones: the dutch islands, here when we listen of:

AUA CUR SXM we think of classy, chic destinations, polyglot people, colorful dutch houses, good shopping, excellent beaches, low crime.

when we listen of: NAS GCM BDA PUJ wwwoooww wait a minute, you're rich right? what does your father do?

KIN MBJ : ahaaaaaa you smoke? that's a classic, and should not be ignored as I was refused entry in BGI after arriving from jamaica and having to answer the same questions to 5 or 6 different officers and finally having a "melt down" or stress attack you name it.

GND BGI ANU POS SVD SLU STT EIS PLS DOM SKB: where the hell are there?

CUN : party, sex, drugs and lots of tacos.

sorry for some stereotypes, but they do apply here.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:25 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 36):
I think that you answered your own question here. If the market between POS and PTY indeed is mostly POS originating, than Caribbean Airlines doesn't need connectivity...

Didn't CM start with an Ejet?

a 738 is just too much aircraft for BW to start with...
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
A388
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:03 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 37):
So routes to PTY, or GRU, or GIG will not depend on POS alone, but can be enhanced by passengers connecting from other nearby points.

Even those nearby points you mention, won't have sufficient people wanting to go to South America yearround. It may work for some vacation periods in the year but not yearround.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 39):
Quoting A388 (Reply 36):
I think that you answered your own question here. If the market between POS and PTY indeed is mostly POS originating, than Caribbean Airlines doesn't need connectivity...


Didn't CM start with an Ejet?

I think they did but to my knowledge it was upgauged to the 73G fairly quickly. Someone please correct if I'm wrong. CUR normally is an E190 but regularly we get the 73G and as you can see even the 738 at times.

A388
 
caribbean484
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:15 pm

Thanks BW424 for the new forum, been really busy so I can't post as much anymore lol

Well the situation is taking an interesting turn for the 7th freedom rights between GEO-JFK.

http://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/20...aica-appeal-meets-more-objections/

So in effect, the Airlines for America is really a disguise Delta was using voice its concern for both CAL and DL on the route. The Governments of Guyana and Jamaica have seem to join to get both airlines the rights to fly the route, stating that no US airline is showing any interest in flying the route Non-Stop.

What is interesting is DL finally admits why it left the route;
"Delta’s decision to exit the JFK-GEO market was not taken lightly “for its own commercial reasons” as suggested by Fly Jamaica in its Petition. (Page 2) Rather, after five years of successfully operating nonstop service on the JFK-GEO route, Delta was forced to terminate service due to the entry of a state sponsored, state-subsided carrier using an aggressive interpretation of 5th freedom operating rights."

But this is a really interesting statement from Delta:
"Delta is actively monitoring the JFK-GEO route. In an environment free from the harmful, effects of state, sponsorship and subsidy, and aggressive and undue reliance on 5th, freedom operations by third country countries, Delta is fully prepared to resume service."

Docket DOT-OST-2013-0136

One of two things will have to happen, as a CAL manager said, Guyana needs to get its act together and return to CAT1, thereby CAL will then register the company in Guyana and take advantage of all the freedoms associated with it.
Or this may go to Federal Courts and make a case before a judge in D.C. of being unfairly treated.

Either way its a long battle and Delta is seems to have a large interest in Guyana for some reason or the other to block competition on this market.
All ah we is one family
 
guyanam
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 38):

The belief is that the Caribbean has already achieved maximum penetration of its traditional markets, so that future grwth will have to be from new markets. Russia has proven to be a success with thousands of tourists pouring into Cuba, DR, Jamaica, and even SKB attracting some investment dollars for new villa resort projects.

With almost 200 million Brazil is seen as too big to ignore, and too close, once airlift is improved.

The intent is to begin to market BRAND Caribbean. Firstly developing an awareness among Brazilians about what the Caribbean has to offer. SXM is very different from CUR/AUA, as you are aware. If you like SXM, why not try ANU? The French side of SXM isnt that different from SKB (at least in my opinion). BGI is a classy destination, if there ever is one, though they need to train their customs and immigration people to stop thinking that God is a Bajan and that he must only like North Americans and Western Europeans. SLU has an exotic blend of the French/Anglo Caribbean. Talking about a small island with its own unique culture, definitely GND. And so it goes.

But then Brazilians will need to become aware of this, just as you did. And before each Caribbean island attempts to promote itself an overall awareness of the diversity of the Caribbean will need to be developed. BRAND Caribbean.

I will also tell you a little secret. Most people in the Anglophone Caribbean prefer Brazilians to your Spanish speaking neighbors. I consider the parts of Brazil stretching from Pernambuco to Rio to be an extension of the Caribbean, with its creole culture arising from the merger of Euro/Afro/Indigenous roots. But you probably know this already. So is suspect that Brazilians who are open to the locals will be well treated in most islands.

BW is an alternate if GOL isnt interested, but it will have to be subsidized with route guarantees as the route will clearly be a loss maker in the beginning. It cannot rush in now and expect to succeeed.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 41):

Like I said DL wanted to keep its monopoly on the JFK GEO nonstop route. Every argument that they can raise against BW (state subsidies, etc) does NOT apply to FJ. So the fact that they are blocking FJ suggests that their intention is to bring Guyana to its knees and force it to accept what ever terms DL dictates. As I previously stated, rumors exist that DL is still interested in this route, and most likely want to force Guyana into withdrawing flag carrier status from BW and forcing it back to running all its JFK bound flights via POS. And also getting various fee waivers as well.

Put it this way. DL knows full well that for a variety of reasons GEO is not an attractive destination for most US carriers. Aside from JFK the market is too small, and as we can see with BGI, AA is pulling back out of its NYC Caribbean routes. So DL has GEO by the throat and intends to squeeze it. If BW used to fly POS BGI JFK with no objections from any one,, why is DL implying that not only do they intend to block GEO JFK, but they wish that they can also block POS GEO JFK.

Clearly the GEO market needs competition on the JFK GEO. Clearly DL wishes to do every thing that it can to prevent this.


As to BW setting up some subsidiary in GEO if they get Cat 1. I really dont think that this will be possible, unless Guyana obtains significant decision making input into their GEO operations, and I am not sure what they will demand is what BW will be willing to offer. Many Guyanese will want to know why a Trini entity, which they claim has been cruel to Guyanese, both in its current form, and as BWIA, must be given preference over a Guyanese who might wish to establish a 100% Guyanese owned airline. And the problem for BW is that they get blamed, not only for what they do, but for the entirety of what goes wrong at POS. Arrogant airport officials and a terminal building which is hostile to intransits. And for haughty attitudes that more than a few Trinis display to Guyanese who visit/live on that island.

You will note that Guyana is agitating for FJ to get JFK GEO JFK, with no mention of BW getting those rights.
 
andrefranca
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 42):
I will also tell you a little secret. Most people in the Anglophone Caribbean prefer Brazilians to your Spanish speaking neighbors. I consider the parts of Brazil stretching from Pernambuco to Rio to be an extension of the Caribbean, with its creole culture arising from the merger of Euro/Afro/Indigenous roots. But you probably know this already. So is suspect that Brazilians who are open to the locals will be well treated in most islands.

Agreed, if you ever make it to SLZ I don't know if you made it there so far, Reggae and caribbean vibe is KING.
 
BW424
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 39):
Didn't CM start with an Ejet?

a 738 is just too much aircraft for BW to start with...

Yes, CM did indeed start the route with an E-190 5x weekly and with a government guaranteed seat block purchase if load factors did not meet the agreed figure. I do not believe CM has ever used this guarantee and we can all understand why this is so.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 23):
Lots of O&d to PTY. And not an insignificant amount are doing POS-PTY-SAL-BZE on a CM-AV combo.....

Lots of in-transit traffic as well. Many Trinis now prefer travelling via PTY to their destinations in Latin America as a result of the almost effortless connections. PTY itself has an impressive variety of stores that won't leave someone wanting too much from a MIA layover.

I must also say, on my POS-PTY leg, there were two Bajans on board heading to Miami, but were stopping off in PTY for 36hrs to do business. This tells me that the EC pax may also be filtering into POS to connect with CM's PTY flights, thus making it a glodmine for CM.

Quoting A388 (Reply 36):
if Caribbean Airlines wants to develop Latin American markets, than they need to work on their connectivity through POS, yes. The problem here is like you also said yourself, CM is much bigger and much more powerful in these markets.

Very good point. The truth is, you don't need to have a large indigenous population to gain critical mass and build a hub. It just takes vision and proper strategy. POS is somewhat well placed to take advantage of Latin American traffic going North. However, the political will doesn't exist at the moment to transform POS into a proper in-transit hub. Even so, I like to think that there are windows of opportunity.

What BW could have done, CM beat them to it not only by their better geographic location, but also by their stable and visionary management that took advantage of the booming Panamanian economy. I would like to think that BW's window of opportunity of becoming a formidable indigenous carrier with very healthy in-transit traffic from South America has pretty much closed. CM managed their affairs cautiously over the last two decades, hence their current explosive double-digit expansion that has them on a somewhat level competitive footing with the likes of LATAM and AV.

I wish I can say BW can achieve heavy in-tranist Latin American traffic if they play their cards right, but I just don't see that window open again. CM has too much critical mass and too good at what they do for BW to enjoy high-yielding in-transit traffic. By the time BW get's its house in order in all departments in about 18 mths minimum, CM could well be expanding into further underserved markets and increasing capacity on their existing ones, giving BW little to choose.

Politics can spoil opportunities in a heart beat.
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
2travel2know2
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:12 am

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 43):
Agreed, if you ever make it to SLZ I don't know if you made it there so far, Reggae and caribbean vibe is KING.

SLZ is quite an exotic undeserved market pretty much from everywhere except Northern Brazil.
From what it's know about it, São Luiz is a hidden gem.
'd be quite interesting to check SLZ-MIA/JFK traffic demand and if that Brazilan State/tCity government would settle for a "POS-hub" link if they're looking to make it easier to promote travel to/from SLZ.
A point that should be taken in consideration when talking about SLZ: a chunk of its traffic supposedly flies via BEL.

Quoting BW424 (Reply 44):
I wish I can say BW can achieve heavy in-tranist Latin American traffic if they play their cards right, but I just don't see that window open again. CM has too much critical mass and too good at what they do for BW to enjoy high-yielding in-transit traffic.

If POS has some oil-related traffic demand, then GIG might be a better point of entry into Brazil for BW than GRU thus making it a good place to draw some traffic.
However, SAO is such a powerful market, that if BW wants some "fare-concious" in-transit traffic between YYZ/JFK/MIA/CCS and deep South America, it shouldn't be neglected, regardless of GRU being an slot-restricted airport
Also worth checking: EZE - which B.T.W. is quite a profitable CM destination where CM can't just add any more frequencies right now.
GIG, GRU and EZE are all within BW B737-800 range. Not sure about the Trini-Brazil or Trini-Argentina bilateral but if BW is too concerned of the yields to South America, an EZE tag-on (w/5th liberty traffic) may work from both GIG and GRU.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Spacepope
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:22 am

I'll be heading down at the end of next month and I was wondering if NAS had any good spotting opportunities. Tried the search engine but, well, you know...
The last of the famous international playboys
 
caribbean484
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 42):
Like I said DL wanted to keep its monopoly on the JFK GEO nonstop route. Every argument that they can raise against BW (state subsidies, etc) does NOT apply to FJ. So the fact that they are blocking FJ suggests that their intention is to bring Guyana to its knees and force it to accept what ever terms DL dictates. As I previously stated, rumors exist that DL is still interested in this route, and most likely want to force Guyana into withdrawing flag carrier status from BW and forcing it back to running all its JFK bound flights via POS. And also getting various fee waivers as well.
Quoting guyanam (Reply 42):
Clearly the GEO market needs competition on the JFK GEO. Clearly DL wishes to do every thing that it can to prevent this.

In my view I find it quite disgusting of DL to put fort those kinds of arguments, and wanting to create a monopoly within a route, by force of Government intervention objections.

Removing the flag carrier status does nothing to the competing environment because, they will always be behind in service and fares. Their argument of "An aggressive interpretation approach to 5th freedom" is very insulting to say the least. CAL had those rights for decades grandfathered from BWIA, and has been using/used many of those rights for years. So they, if they had it their way want to stop CAL from flying the POS-GEO-JFK route?

IMO DL cannot compete with the likes of B6 or CAL from JFK to the Caribbean and it shows very well, in that they always cut routes then restart them with seasonality.
GND and ANU comes to mind; DL decided to go seasonal on the GND, they cut BGI-ATL, POS-ALT despite being the only players on the market, and when CAL entered the JFK-ANU service they went seasonal on that route too. CAL no longer operates the route so what is their excuse now?
All ah we is one family
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 41):
Guyana needs to get its act together and return to CAT1

A few years ago the GOG had consultants come in with a view to regaining Cat. 1 and they were told it would take a few years at least. I have not heard of anything being done since then to regain Cat. 1.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 47):
I find it quite disgusting of DL

Yeah that happens when you are the big fish in the pond. I am still not sure why BW wants this as I don't think they will put any a/c in GEO. I assume they want the flexibility in the future or, as I suggested before maybe to block OJ.

GUYAIR707
 
9YCAL
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RE: New Seasons - Caribbean Aviation Thread 107

Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting GUYAIR707 (Reply 48):
I am still not sure why BW wants this as I don't think they will put any a/c in GEO. I assume they want the flexibility in the future or, as I suggested before maybe to block OJ.

One of the reasons they want it is to do POS/JFK - JFK/GEO/JFK - JFK/POS flights. They can better utilize aircraft and crew on the route.