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lindy field
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Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:01 pm

Everyone else is doing it, why can't we? With the recent closure of another forum where San Diego locals and ex-locals used to discuss all sorts of minutiae related to aviation in San Diego, I thought I'd start a thread here to discuss what's new in SAN. In some ways a sleepy town overshadowed by all the activity at LAX, SAN has actually been doing quite well in recent years, at least by some measures.

We recently saw the opening of the expansion to Terminal 2 and United Airlines moved over from Terminal 1. I'm curious if anyone has traveled through the new part of the terminal and would like to share their experiences. Is there any word yet about other airlines moving from Terminals 1 to 2 or vice-versa? There's quite a bit of empty real estate at Terminal 1 now. How are the renovations there coming along?

We're also approaching the first year anniversary of nonstop service by Japan Airlines to NRT. Does anyone have any info on how the flight is performing?

For spotters, in this last month there seems to be a regular Friday afternoon FedEx flight operated by an MD-11, a new type to see regularly in SAN and a great add. Does anyone know if this is planned as a permanent or just seasonal change?

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Photo © PlaneSpotterIII



Also, BA is moving their flight from LHR two hours earlier later this fall, so spotters should be able to catch the arrival in daylight for most of the winter. Next month we should also be able to see Alaska's CRJ-700 operated by SkyWest on the new flights to Boise.

Are there any other interesting developments or rumors about developments at SAN? Please discuss! Let's see if this thread can take on a life of its own.
 
WNCrew
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:08 pm

I'd love to see some improvements in SPACE for terminal 1. It's so horrible crowded for the passengers with no room to move about. Would it be possible to build UP with a mezzanine level of seating that looked down upon the main level or something? Gates 1a&b and 2 are bad enough in their own way then you've got the round-about with it's own issues. I LOVE SAN and how much business we do there but it's really frustrating for the pax and you can tell, there's just so much foot traffic and nowhere for people to go.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
hawaiian717
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:56 pm

I flew Delta out of the new gates about a week after they opened back in April. Quite nice, with lots of power outlets. And I saw the dog restroom. And the drinking fountains that also have the option to refill water bottles. Also went through the new checkpoint.

I'm not sure what the situation is now, but when I was there the older gates on the east side of T2W were closed and blocked by construction walls. So the views of the field from the new gates were pretty limited, since you could only see to the west, not the east.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:08 pm

I went through SAN on a mileage junket yesterday.

I sat and people-watched in a sunny area between gates 33 and 34 -- overlooking the baggage carousels. I had a latte -- the Peets Coffee's at SAN have gotten better (at the beginning, they were a piss-poor replacements for Starbucks). I looked for Calfornia wines on sale and couldn't find them anywhere in terminal 2.

Strange construction between gates 33 and 36, really narrowing the walk area.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
Strange construction between gates 33 and 36, really narrowing the walk area.

I know somewhere in that area was the old skyclub for Delta. I know they must be using that space for more
shops or restaurants? Delta and United clubs are now in the new part of the terminal (Green build)

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 1):
I'd love to see some improvements in SPACE for terminal 1. It's so horrible crowded for the passengers with no room to move about.

SDIA was looking at plans to possibly tear down T-1 and rebuild it from the ground up. They were talking
about this because T-1 has been remodeled so much in the past that they can't remodel any more. T-1 was
built in 1967. When United moved over to the new T-2W, they had been at T-1 for nearly 45 years!

[Edited 2013-10-20 13:59:47]
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777ord
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:18 pm

Moving from T1 to T2 both on an employee level for UA and most importantly, our customers is HUGE!!!!!

T1 is old, depressing and reminds me of being in a hampster cage. T2 has a LOT of amenities, great variety, comfort,space and good music, considering most airports dont have any. The giant glass window by the "bubbles" bistro is fantastic, especially from the United Club while enjoying yet another bloody marry :p.

Even though I help run a station in Southern CA for UA, I fly out of SAN since I live near by.

There were plans to get approval to move the UAX operation from commuter to some part of T2. The infrastructure is there, the manpower is DEFINITELY there. The issue was simply contract negotiations. (Could be more, but I am not privvy to that).

The biggest, most immediate difference a pax will see is the ease of going from the UA ticket counter to security. And, with ample space it makes the old T1 queue history.

The combining of ops with this opening is a huge milestone for that airport.

You know what'd be news for me? The residents in Point Loma allowing flights to take off before 0630. I'd rather have that mad rush spread out then every every minute from 0630. :p I used to live at Union/ Juniper just on the north side of the 5, and directly under 27 final approach and loved the jets screaming over. Even my neighbors who hate flying, enjoy it.

San has big plans for expansion, and as long as the tech industry is near by (Carlsbad/ La Jolla etc...), the military presence is big, and our tourism stays as strong SAN has tremendous prospects.

Can you tell I love my city!?

Does anyone know of any meet up groups? Like plane spotting type.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 5):
T1 is old, depressing and reminds me of being in a hampster cage.

I'd heard that when they built T-1 and T-2E (formerly west terminal) the idea was for arriving pax to
quickly grab their luggage from the baggage claim and be out the door. Everything changed since
T-2W was added. With all of the amenities available,pax are encouraged to stay longer in the terminal,
(like many modern airports).

It also seems as if we have been seeing new and different kinds of aircraft visiting SAN lately I'd like
to think the new terminal addition of T-2 had something to do with it. So far this year we've seen 787, 777-300,757-300,(JAL 777),I'd heard next year Jetblue will be sending their new A321 here.
I had been wondering since JAL just made that big Airbus order will we see a A350 instead of the 787?
The Fedex MD-11 is one I didn't know about!

[Edited 2013-10-20 17:14:02]

[Edited 2013-10-20 17:17:42]
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bw50505
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:36 am

Don't forget the the ATN 757-200CF that came in May and the FDX 767-300F that came earlier this October, each on FAA Proving flights.

Also, if JAL was to upgrade SAN-NRT, it would most likely go to a 787-9 before going to an A350-900, but it will hopefully eventually be able to support an A350-900.
Flown on: A319 A320 B734 B737 B738 B752 CRJ DHC2 DH8 E135/145 E190 MD80 ...and more that I can't remember.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:50 am

Quoting bw50505 (Reply 7):
Don't forget the the ATN 757-200CF that came in May and the FDX 767-300F

I forgot about the Fedex 767 that came. What was the ATN 757? I didn't know about that one!
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bw50505
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 8):
What was the ATN 757?

The ATN 757 was N752CX. And, since I just remembered, there are the occasional 767-400's that have/will come for the SD Chargers games. There was one here for the Texans-Chargers game on Sep. 9 and there will possibly be others for games on Nov. 10 and Dec. 8.
Flown on: A319 A320 B734 B737 B738 B752 CRJ DHC2 DH8 E135/145 E190 MD80 ...and more that I can't remember.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:14 am

Quoting bw50505 (Reply 9):
The ATN 757 was N752CX.

Oh! it was an ATI 757! I remember when they used to fly DC-8s every day into
SAN. If that's the same Air Transport Int'l I'm thinking about.
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drmlnr1
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:15 am

I live so very close to SAN i can hear the roar of the engines. I recently took a class where a guest speaker was from SDIA and he said they will be tearing down and rebuilding T1 ant T2E. T2E has been upgraded majorly. There used to be no where to sit now there is plenty. T1 is so rundown, so old that I choose airlines not in T1 at all costs. T2 is nicer

[Edited 2013-10-20 18:55:20]
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SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting drmlnr1 (Reply 11):
T2W has been upgraded majorly. There used to be no where to sit now there is plenty.

That would be T-2E. I haven't seen the new upgrades, but I remember all the seating on one side,but when it was built in 1979, it was the first area at SAN to have jetways.
I can understand why they would want to rebuild T2-E. It looks a lot like T-1
without the rotundas!


Quoting drmlnr1 (Reply 11):
I choose airlines not in T1 at all costs.

Since UA moved over to T-2W, the only airlines in T-1 now are AS and WN.
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JAAlbert
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:10 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 1):
Would it be possible to build UP with a mezzanine level of seating that looked down upon the main level or something? Gates 1a&b and 2 are bad enough in their own way then you've got the round-about with it's own issues.

Tear the building down and rebuild. No sense putting more money into that building.

Quoting 777ord (Reply 5):
T1 is old, depressing and reminds me of being in a hampster cage.

So true. It was designed for a lot less traffic. Especially if SWA is going to continue using that space, SAN needs a much larger, better functioning T-1.

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 12):
I can understand why they would want to rebuild T2-E. It looks a lot like T-1
without the rotundas!

T2-E had this state-of-the-art design when first built. It had no waiting areas next to the gate. Rather, the terminal had a massive waiting area at the base of the terminal (just past where security was for so long). I guess the idea was all passengers would wait in the main waiting room until their flight was called and then trek down to the gate. As it turns out, people wanted to wait next to the gate, not a half mile away - and the airlines wanted their passengers closer too. An interesting idea, but not at all functional in the real world.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:16 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 1):
I'd love to see some improvements in SPACE for terminal 1. It's so horrible crowded for the passengers with no room to move about. Would it be possible to build UP with a mezzanine level of seating that looked down upon the main level or something?

I'm sure if SAN redoes T-1 it will be a major teardown/rebuild, but I like the possibility of rehabbing T-1. I don't think you can come up with a more efficient parking scheme for aircraft than the current one, especially being so close to the runway and the requirement for security area.

1.) If the concessions were moved from the center of the satellites, there should be enough room for expanded boarding areas.
2.) Expand the security screening to encompass the restaurants and shops on the first floor.
3.) Build concessions and shops above current ticket counters
4.) Secure area would allow transit between satellites without re-screening.

If you want to go big, move the ticket counters up a floor and add a second level passenger dropoff roadway, but that will get expensive.
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:58 am

I think the only problem the SDIA is facing is how to accommodate AS and WN while
T-1 is being demolished/rebuilt. tear it down in halves and have the airlines move to
one half while the other half is torn down and rebuilt. It would be a tight squeeze with
such limited space.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 13):
T2-E had this state-of-the-art design when first built. It had no waiting areas next to the gate. Rather, the terminal had a massive waiting area at the base of the terminal (just past where security was for so long). I guess the idea was all passengers would wait in the main waiting room until their flight was called and then trek down to the gate.

That setup probably would have worked at an airport with a lot less traffic than traffic at SAN.
When they built T-2E, they probably didn't think the traffic would increase as much as
it has over the years.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 14):
Secure area would allow transit between satellites without re-screening.

Maybe a walkway/bridge between rotundas located at the base of the rotundas just past security? That would be good for pax if they were connecting between AS and WN.
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SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:22 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 14):
I like the possibility of rehabbing T-1. I don't think you can come up with a more efficient parking scheme for aircraft than the current one, especially being so close to the runway and the requirement for security area.

I was thinking of a linear terminal, similar to the terminals at SNA or SJC.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 14):
If you want to go big, move the ticket counters up a floor and add a second level passenger dropoff roadway, but that will get expensive.

That sounds like a duplicate of the new terminal (T-2W). They might duplicate T-2W,but with a linear
design. They would'nt have enough room for rotundas.
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:15 am

They could start with moving the cargo facilities or whatever they are between T-1 and the Commuter terminal. Move those to areas vacated by Ryan.

Then build a finger against the back of the commuter terminal. There should be about 840 feet, allowing seven 737NGs straight into the gates.

If the satellites were torn down, a linear terminal would provide approximately another 1800 feet, good enough for 15 more 737NGs for a total of 22 gates. That would be over a half mile of gates in a row (several hundred feet longer than midfield concourses in ATL) , a long walk for some connections. If the linear terminal was bumped out a bit where the current satellites are, there could be few more gates. While this could work, it leaves a huge empty ramp east of current satellites and only provide as few as 3 more gates than the 2 satellites do now.

If the basis of the satellites were kept, maybe build out to where the circle of the satellites meet the connector, the efficiencies of the gate setup would remain with lots more passenger servicing area in the terminal. Of course, SAN won't do this as they are interested in more grandiose solutions and seem to get the cash.
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:52 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 17):
They could start with moving the cargo facilities or whatever they are between T-1 and the Commuter terminal. Move those to areas vacated by Ryan.

I never thought about moving the cargo facilities to the old Teledyne Ryan area.
(That's an interesting idea.I was thinking over to the North side.) the cargo area should be
moved to provide more space for a new terminal. I wonder if that's what the SDIA is thinking?

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 17):
That would be over a half mile of gates in a row (several hundred feet longer than midfield concourses in ATL) , a long walk for some connections.

That shouldn't be a big problem. Just install moving sidewalks in the
terminal to get to connecting flights quicker.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 17):
SAN won't do this as they are interested in more grandiose solutions and seem to get the cash.

I have the same feeling they want a big terminal similar to T-2W.
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Tugger
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:00 am

Quoting lindy field (Thread starter):
With the recent closure of another forum where San Diego locals and ex-locals used to discuss all sorts of minutiae related to aviation in San Diego,

Curious what was it that recently closed?

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 15):
I think the only problem the SDIA is facing is how to accommodate AS and WN while
T-1 is being demolished/rebuilt. tear it down in halves and have the airlines move to one half while the other half is torn down and rebuilt. It would be a tight squeeze with such limited space.

I think that only having the two carriers they can actually move them around. They would have to build the new one first to allow them to do anything though.

I have posted this link before, it has pretty much every option for Lindbergh. Pages 15 and 21 show what I think would be the most likely for the first step:
http://www.san.org/documents/amp/ado...iminaryConceptDev_V04-21-08_LR.pdf

I know I have seen other (more recent?) proposals that show a new T1 pushing south into the current parking lot (with another mufti-story garage replacing the lost capacity).

Quoting drmlnr1 (Reply 11):
a guest speaker was from SDIA and he said they will be tearing down and rebuilding T1 ant T2E.

On pg23 of the link above is only time I see the "ghost of T2E future".

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JAAlbert
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:09 am

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 16):
I was thinking of a linear terminal, similar to the terminals at SNA or SJC.

I think this is the solution that makes the most sense with the narrow lot they have to work with on the eastern end of the airport. I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on the desirability of a linear terminal. Such a design would result in a lot of walking - although getting to the end gates of T2-W is a bit of hike as well.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 17):
They could start with moving the cargo facilities or whatever they are between T-1 and the Commuter terminal. Move those to areas vacated by Ryan.

I thought the master plan calls for the cargo facilities being moved to the other side of the runway, where FedEx has its operations. There is quite a bit of land out there with that massive car park.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 17):
it leaves a huge empty ramp east of current satellites and only provide as few as 3 more gates than the 2 satellites do now.

I'm not sure SAN needs many more gates - what terminal 1 does need more of is space. When all those SWA flights are coming and going terminal 1 feels more like an ant hill than a place for human habitation. Waiting for a flight in that cramped area makes for a very stressful start to your journey.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 19):
proposals that show a new T1 pushing south into the current parking lot (with another mufti-story garage replacing the lost capacity).


That's one of the biggest thing they need is a parking garage. I know one
was included in the Green Build, but was scrapped due to the residents in
Pt. Loma complaining about traffic/Noise on Harbor Dr. A parking garage
would free up a lot of land currently occupied by all the "Wally-Parks" and the
"Park-n-Fly" parking lots.

Quoting tugger (Reply 19):
On pg23 of the link above is only time I see the "ghost of T2E future".

If they rebuilt T-1 in this way, they could keep the current terminal operational until the new terminal
is built, similar to what they are doing at LAX with the new TBIT.
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:20 pm

The second runway isn't going t0 fly. Tons of cash for only about a 15-20% increase in capacity. Ground traffic issues near the east end.
As for a linear terminal, remember the linked document is from 2008. Anything that parks aircraft east of the commuter terminal would be bad idea as aircraft would have to taxi back to their gate and pushbacks could be held for sequencing and outbound taxiing aircraft.
Figures 8-2, 8-4 and 8-6 are inefficient, waste space and create aircraft movements issues.
Figure 8-5 doesn't gain any gates.
Figures 8-10 and 8-7 might work, but don't level the satellites, instead enlarge the circle for concessions - don't know what that does for you - the issue is security area and to relocate the concessions above the ticket counters would be a better use of space.
sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:10 pm

The concept that keeps only the west rotunda, but linear to the east may work (is that figure 8-5?)
To gain more gates they could add a finger in an L shape up against the commuter terminal like you
mentioned earlier. I'm personally not in favor of demolishing the commuter terminal in favor of a big
terminal (that was the old PSA hangar and there's some history behind it) To have one big terminal
that extends far onto the Teledyne property is a little too much!

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 22):
The second runway isn't going t0 fly. Tons of cash for only about a 15-20% increase in capacity. Ground traffic issues near the east end.

I think there's also some historical landmarks at MCRD that they cannot raze for a new runway. That's IF the marines leave MCRD. I'd personally love to see them put in a new runway,but there's
no available land.

I was also looking at that same figure (8-5?) would allow T-1 to stay open while new section
is being built. The remaining west rotunda can be redone with expanded concessions, etc.
after the new section is built.

[Edited 2013-10-21 16:21:27]
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SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 19):
With the recent closure of another forum where San Diego locals and ex-locals used to discuss all sorts of minutiae related to aviation in San Diego,

Curious what was it that recently closed?

The website was called Aviation Guru and they had a SAN forum that generated a lot of activity.
It suddenly shut down a few months ago for unknown reasons.

[Edited 2013-10-21 16:42:30]
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:43 am

Why not situate a new linear international terminal at the old Ryan facility. Currently, you have daily (or nearly daily) service to NRT, LHR and several Mexican cities that require customs control (SJD, PVR, MEX). You have flights to YYC, YVR, and YYZ which are international but do not require full customs control. I think you could site an eight-gate international terminal on the Ryan land and have ample room for future routing. I've not looked at the PDEW totals for SAN, and don't think that SAN's international aspirations are boundless. But, I think there is probably enough viable traffic and cargo for one or additional European hubs (CDG, AMS or FRA) and two or three additional asia cities (PEK, PVG, or HKG (HKG may be on the outside envelope of feasible even with a 787)).

While we're at it, why not revise the idea of moving cargo ops to Brown field? UPS and FedEx already have significant infrastructure over in Otay Mesa with the commercial border crossing. I recognize that SDM has topography issues to the east, but why not consider a downwind landing for the five cargo flights that are set to land at SAN? They can then depart to the west in the evening.
 
SANflyr
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:09 pm

Might have been mentioned above, but I did not notice it. The next big project is the CONRAC. Consolidated Car Rental Facility. It looks like early grading has started at Pacific Hwy and Washington Street. The facility is in design and looks to be very nice. I have heard that the idea is to remove the shuttles from Harbor and Pacific Hwy by constructing a new access road on airport property passing behind the runway blast fence. If that is true, along with consolidating all the various rental agency shuttles into one operation....traffic on Harbor should improve significantly (at least until the space currently occupied by the rental agencies and their associated storage lots get redeveloped).
One of the driving forces in demolishing Teledyne Ryan was for the taxiway relocation, so I imagine that project is still ago.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting SANflyr (Reply 26):
One of the driving forces in demolishing Teledyne Ryan was for the taxiway relocation,

I'd heard that part of the demolition of the Teledyne site requires a cleanup of the site (old chemicals
in the soil before they can build on it.) I believe the taxiway relocation is to allow widebody jets to
taxi all of the way down to the end of the runway.The jets won't have to do the "lindy-hop" across
the runway.

BTW, I wonder where's SANFan? This thread is right up his alley!
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AM777LR
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:11 pm

I would like to see more European flights, ie: FRA/AMS/CDG/MAD-SAN
 
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Tugger
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 22):
Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 23):

FYI, be aware that the "plans" in the link I provided are just the various possible options that they have looked at. They are not part of the any adopted "Airport Plan" or necessarily going to be brought out to be considered officially.

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 23):
I think there's also some historical landmarks at MCRD that they cannot raze for a new runway. That's IF the marines leave MCRD. I'd personally love to see them put in a new runway,but there's no available land.

To my knowledge you are correct that there are some historical landmarks at MCRD that can't be destroyed, HOWEVER that does not mean they are preventing anything from being built. They can all be moved, and with relative ease. Remember the Western Metals building was moved to accommodate the ballpark downtown and it was the biggest move of its type at the time. All the MCRD elements in question could be moved to a location on the property where they could be preserved or repurposed. That is if MCRD moved which I am not holding my breath for.

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 27):
BTW, I wonder where's SANFan? This thread is right up his alley!

It's practically named after him.... 

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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lindy field
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:44 am

Well, this thread has turned out well so far.   I am a little bit surprised that a certain someone hasn't turned up yet... I figured that he could keep the thread going even if nobody else showed up.

In any case, I appreciate all the contributions we've had so far. I have a few follow-up questions. Is the east side of Terminal 2W still undergoing renovation or reconstruction, and if so, doesn' t that mean that Terminal 2 still hasn't yet had all of its gates open at once? Does this mean that when everything is open all at the same time that there might be enough real estate there to be able to move Alaska over as well as United? I'm simply thinking in terms of being able to move Alaska over from Terminal 1 to Terminal 2 so as to allow for the demolition/rebuilding of Terminal 1.

I've seen the various diagrams for new terminal options on the site of Terminal 1, but is there any timeframe in place for deciding which option to actually build?

Regarding new international service to SAN, I think it would depend on how well the existing services are doing. If there's a market for adding new service, then I think it depends on which airlines have or will have the right sized equipment to open new routes. In Europe, I'd think that LH or VS might be the most likely candidates among the European legacies to add service to SAN, but charter flights might also be a possibility. Outside Europe, I find myself wondering if WestJet might try flights from YVR to replace Air Canada.

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SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting lindy field (Reply 30):
I am a little bit surprised that a certain someone hasn't turned up yet... I figured that he could keep the thread going even if nobody else showed up.

I was trying to hold the fort down until he showed up (I sent him an instant message to invite
him to participate in the post, but he hasn't responded.)
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SANflyr
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 27):
I'd heard that part of the demolition of the Teledyne site requires a cleanup of the site (old chemicals
in the soil before they can build on it.) I believe the taxiway relocation is to allow widebody jets to
taxi all of the way down to the end of the runway.The jets won't have to do the "lindy-hop" across
the runway.

Yes and Yes. There was some very nasty stuff underground.
Personally I think the T-R site would make a perfect location for a replacement Commuter Terminal.
They could demolish the old terminal and start building a new Terminal 1 in phases back towards Terminal 2. First Phase moves Southwest...demo Southwest pier. Phase 2 in the old Southwest pier area...Alaska moves over... and so on.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting SANflyr (Reply 32):
Personally I think the T-R site would make a perfect location for a replacement Commuter Terminal.
They could demolish the old terminal and start building a new Terminal 1 in phases back towards Terminal 2. First Phase moves Southwest...demo Southwest pier. Phase 2 in the old Southwest pier area...Alaska moves over... and so on.

That Commuter Terminal is also the headquarters of the Regional Airport Authority. Don't think I't going anywhere, but they do like to spend money. The views are great from the second floor bump-out windows for the RAA execs.

The problem with any terminal east of the Commuter Terminal is taxiing issues.There can be sequencing issues with the single taxiway. Additionally, the property gets pretty narrow and vehicular traffic could be problematic.

I was at a meeting where the Tower Chief was in attendance and I stated at least part of the TR property should be used as a penalty box type ramp to allow departing aircraft sequencing - he loved the idea and asked jokingly if I needed a job if I recall correctly.

The best solution keeps the commuter terminal where it is and high frequency carriers like WN/AS in the Terminal 1 area due to exiting the runway under the normal west flow as well as reduced taxiout for departure. That minimizes arriving aircraft rolling out farther west to T-2, improving efficiency.
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SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 33):
The problem with any terminal east of the Commuter Terminal is taxiing issues.

And that would be arriving aircraft taxiing to the gates (at a Teledyne terminal) while departing aircraft from T-2 would be forced to share the same taxiway. (am I correct?) If the aircraft did a
rwy-9 arrival (in bad weather), they wouldn't have that problem,only for arriving aircraft
taxiing to T-1/T-2.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:22 am

So swap out the commuter terminal for an international terminal. The distance from taxiway B to Harbor Drive has to be nearly 2,000 feet near the commuter terminal.

I find it hard to believe that they could not construct a ramp and terminal and some parking with 2,000 feet of clearance between the taxiway and the road.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:30 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 35):
So swap out the commuter terminal for an international terminal.

If they swapped the commuter terminal for an international one, how many gates could
they fit in there?The commuter terminal has about four gates, but those are only big
enough for regional jets.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 36):
If they swapped the commuter terminal for an international one, how many gates could
they fit in there?The commuter terminal has about four gates, but those are only big
enough for regional jets.

Im not suggesting a 1 for 1 swap in footprint, but noting that the siting of the commuter terminal and adjacent parking lot provides ample room for a terminal and ramp.
 
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SANFan
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:54 am

Wow! What a great thread. There have been a couple of attempts over the last few years for an ongoing SAN-thread and they didn't go very far. I hope this one does stay healthy. Lots of good stuff. (And thanks to those of you wondering where I was; I picked a lousy time to be on the road and not spending much time online...)

I've got a lot I'd like to say (surprise?) but unfortunately, I'm still on a tight schedule and can't yet take the time to really concentrate on reading and reacting to the great posts here.

I would like to make a quick comment or 2 regarding your posts,Lindy. I think right now there is definitely enough room in T2 for AS to move there thus vacating T1W to allow the beginning of the rebuild/remodel of T1. (I'm not real sure what the near-term future of AS here is; they're now officially using 4 gates in T1W, while actually using as many as 7 of the 8 gates in that rotunda.) But by the time the SDCRAA is ready to commit to their plans for T1, who knows what the status of various cx will be?

Quoting lindy field (Thread starter):
Next month we should also be able to see Alaska's CRJ-700 operated by SkyWest on the new flights to Boise.

But has anyone noticed that AS has already downgraded (in my opinion at least) the BOI service to a Q starting Dec 1, just a month after the service begins with the CRJ. (And yes, that CR7 spends about 6 hours sitting on the ground in SAN for the month that it operates! The flight from BOI arrives SAN at about 11:30am and returns to BOI about 5:30pm... Very interesting use of that airplane.)

I'll be back on this thread as soon as I can -- and that's a promise (or a threat?) See you all soon.

bb
 
AAR90
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:09 pm

Quoting lindy field (Reply 30):
Is the east side of Terminal 2W still undergoing renovation or reconstruction, and if so, doesn' t that mean that Terminal 2 still hasn't yet had all of its gates open at once?

That is correct. Construction of "food court" area is ongoing as well as the hallway "upgrades" (floor tiles, ceiling, etc.). AA has been using gate 33 for early a.m. departures due to lack of interior space for gates 27, 29 & 31 (just one of the reasons).
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mercure1
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting lindy field (Thread starter):
In some ways a sleepy town overshadowed by all the activity at LAX,

Yes that is image San Diego in general has overseas I think.

Its basically a suburb of Los Angeles metro being so close. Everyone I know that visit San Diego do so via Los Angeles as its a close and fast drive.


I have coupe questions -

1) Facility beautification is good, but what about actual physical capacity capabilities at SAN. Is airport and community not going to hit such barrier which will limit and upside growth at some point?

2) Being so close to LA, and certainly millions opt to visit San Diego by car via LA, anyone have idea as to the spill volume that is served by other airports like SNA, LAX etc?
Certainly the LAX airport catchment area includes San Diego as people use LA as the gateway to San Diego also.

Seems to me considering limits on SAN airport, its good there is LAX to provide relief and access point to reach SAN, otherwise SAN could not cope and could suffer loss with less visits/conventions etc..
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 40):
Its basically a suburb of Los Angeles metro being so close. Everyone I know that visit San Diego do so via Los Angeles as its a close and fast drive.

Ever since SAN got flights to Japan,UK,Canada,and Mexico, in addition to Mexican flights
from TIJ, the SAN area is slowly breaking out of that image. People who want to travel to
other Asian,European,or Middle Eastern countries, go through LAX.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:28 pm

One issue that you have with SAN is that it is a pure O/D city. Its not a Star Alliance gateway like LAX or SFO; its not a Skyteam gateway like ATL. And there is no feed of any consequence to really move traffic beyond SAN.

Can SAN support that with a MSA of 3,000,000 people? Certainly enough for NRT and LHR. As mentioned earlier, I think there could be enough traffic for other hubs (PVG, FRA, CDG, etc.), but not much beyond that.



[Edited 2013-10-24 10:32:21]
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 42):
think there could be enough traffic for other hubs (PVG, FRA, CDG, etc.),

I've been thinking another European hub before another Asian hub, maybe CDG or possibly AMS or FRA. The 787 is right sized aircraft.Also remember, Japan Airlines, British Airways,and American are part of
the Oneworld alliance,and those three airlines are part of the joint venture. I don't know if their
intentions is to make SAN a Oneworld focus city.
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washingtonflyer
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:18 am

Not having lived in SAN for quite a while....what is the middle eastern community like in SAN. Could you envision at flight on EY or EK from DXB? Can a 787 make it that far?
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 44):
what is the middle eastern community like in SAN.

We have a sizeable Chaldean community here in SD. I'd heard about 20 or 30,000. I don't think
it's large enough to sustain a flight to the Middle East, but I don't know for sure. I figure if
someone wants to get to the Middle East, they can catch an Emirates flight from LAX or a Royal
Jordanian flight from DTW.
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lindy field
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:00 pm

Bump! Well, to address some of the issues that have come up in the thread:

To me it seems logical that once Terminal 2 is "fully armed and operational," Alaska could be moved over. Southwest could then move from the eastern rotunda in Terminal 1 to the western one, allowing the beginning of demolition or some massive makeover. But the Airport Authority needs to make a decision first about what to do with the space. I'll ask again, is there any timeline for that decision to be made?

Regarding Terminal 2, has the airport seen any significant improved efficiencies since it opened? Have aircraft started using the new RON parking area, so that it's no longer necessary to tug so many aircraft across the active runway in the evening and morning?

Turning to possible future long-haul service, I recall seeing an Airport Authority development plan for SAN which included a forecast of future service. According to the stated projections, British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, Japan Airlines, and Korean would be serving SAN by 2030. Of these, I see LH as being the most likely major international airline to add service. It's a bit of a stereotype, but Germans love the American Southwest and California. Germany is the dominant economy of Europe and the most populous European country, and there are great connecting opportunities through FRA to points farther East. Lufthansa also has a well-established history of trying flights to the "lesser" cities of the American West, like PHX and PDX. I think a potential hitch is that LH may not have the right-sized aircraft, or one with the necessary performance to operate from SAN. They haven't ordered the 787, and other aircraft might be too large. This is why I think that VS could be a possibility. Air France strikes me as less likely. KLM at least has 787s on the way, but I would be a little surprised if SAN was KLM's radar as a possible destination.
 
SANMAN66
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting lindy field (Reply 46):
I think a potential hitch is that LH may not have the right-sized aircraft, or one with the necessary performance to operate from SAN.

I've heard that this is the reason why LH have not started service to SAN yet, is that they don't have
the right-sized aircraft to do the job. LH has ordered the A350 my guess is that once the A350 comes
on line, they will take a hard look at SAN, maybe even reinstating service to PDX and PHX.

Quoting lindy field (Reply 46):
it seems logical that once Terminal 2 is "fully armed and operational," Alaska could be moved over.


SANFan mentioned since AS is using only four gates at T-1, they could easily be moved to T-2. My
only question is, does T-2 have the space to accommodate Horizon and their Q-400s in addition to AS' 737s?
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mercure1
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:40 pm

So anyone have an idea of how many passengers (millions) utilize LAX and other Los Angeles basin airports as the gateway to San Diego?

Certainly many millions opt to take the 100mile drive to San Diego, while many also utilize the short hops up to LAX on AA and UA to go beyond also.

I think its interesting study of how traffic bleeds away from local SAN community airport to bigger mega airport. Suppose its the same in LA itself, with smaller community airports always competing with LAX being under its big shadow.
 
AM777LR
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RE: Thread For SAN Fans - Volume I

Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting SANMAN66 (Reply 47):

What about the A332? Does this aircraft not work for LH at SAN? Or the A343?

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