hjulicher
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BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:40 am

According to a flightglobal interview with Willie Walsh, the IAG CEO states that with the introduction of the 787, BA could add at least 5 new cities in the USA.

The article mentions that BA wanted to add these new routes for a while but was waiting for an efficient long-haul aircraft to do so. The new flights will use existing slots from BA's short-haul European network. The new routes will be on top of the new services to Austin, TX.

These statements were made at the Boyd Group International Aviation Forecast Summit 2013 in Baltimore. Here's the link:http://pro.flightglobal.com/news/articles/BA-could-add-at-least-five-new-US-cities-Walsh-392523/

Since no one else has caught on this, I was wondering which cities would be prime candidates for the new service?
My thoughts are:
DTW
PIT
MSP
PDX
CLT
LH 442
 
arielwar
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:48 am

If the merger goes through I think CLT will be a no brainer
 
CGKings317
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:52 am

PDX might be a stretch. However perhaps with using a smaller aircraft than what LH did when that airline was at PDX this route might be marginally viable. It would certainly be nice to see BA at PDX though from a spotters point of view.

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777STL
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:02 am

STL and SAN have to be in consideration. As far as I know, neither currently has scheduled service to Europe and they're the biggest MSAs in the country to not have that service.

[Edited 2013-11-06 18:04:03]
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CairnterriAIR
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:02 am

BDL....quite a few companies in both Hartford and Springfield have pledged they would support a reliable trans-atlantic flight.
 
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psa1011
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:07 am

SAN already has BA. Why not SJC?
 
flymia
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:10 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 3):

BA serves SAN now.

As for where BA might go? I'm not really sure but my 5 guesses would be:
CLT if merger goes through,
MSP
PDX
BDL
CLE? PIT? STL? I find it hard to see them at any of these.
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):

I would love to see CLE but is there enough traffic that BA could pick up to the network (anyone know?)? PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:21 am

Don't forget IND. The IAA has been pushing for a trans-Atlantic flight to London for eons, but only now with the 787 is it feasible. Not to mention substantial business ties including (BA's engine supplier of choice) Rolls-Royce.

Perhaps BA could do IND-LHR with the 787, powered by Trent 1000s of course?
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AV8AJET
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:33 am

How about:

FLL
DTW (return)
SJC
SLC
MSY

Long shots I know
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TPAfan
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:43 am

I think BDL, BNA, and IND, and depending on the merger, CLT. Not sure about another city, although these are my guesses.
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 9):

I doubt FLL, as 1) DY is starting it from LGW, driving down the already low(ish) yields from FLL, and 2) the lower yields. If BA was to start FLL, I could see it with a 777 from LGW after the runway extension is complete.

I definitely see MSY, SJC, BDL, and PIT being feasible.
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briboy
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:44 am

CLT BDL DTW SJC PDX is my guess
next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:46 am

What about:

RSW
BDL
CLT
PDX
DTW

MSP can barely support its current flight.
 
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treebeard787
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:46 am

I think these could be possible.
CLT
STL
SJC
IND would be interesting.
MSP-Although I don't know if the demand is there for this one with DL serving it.
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a380787
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 9):
How about:

FLL
DTW (return)
SJC
SLC
MSY

Long shots I know

SJC isn't that long shot. Despite Bay Area being a strong presence of Star, BA has a competitive product that can lure some tech contracts their way (and Silicon Valley is rich as f... so filling front cabin is no issue) Lots of people would appreciate not having to endure 101 highway or San Mateo Bridge to get to SFO.

SLC/MSY are definitely super long shots

FLL but probably out of LGW

I'm really surprised LHR-DTW doesn't exist on BA considering LH does FRA-DTW
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:53 am

MSY could be viable with the 787. It's the second largest market to W. Europe (behind STL) with no nonstop service based on PDEW. In a news article talking about BA's entry into AUS, it was stated that BA was deciding between MSY and AUS this go around. Don't be surprised to see BA in MSY in the next two years.

I can also see cities like CLT, STL, PIT, and DTW getting a 788 flight to London.
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 9):

FLL is unlikely since it is primarily low yielding going to FLL. If BA were to have a flight at FLL, I feel it would be from LGW.

DTW; makes sense.

SJC; not too sure, I get the tech sector but I assume Asia is much more popular to them than LON.

SLC; could happen.

MSY; Probably LGW, I don't really know if there is much business traffic between MSY/LON.



Quoting flymia (Reply 6):

CLT; most likely, especially with the merger and US joining Oneworld
MSP; makes sense
PDX; I don't think so
STL; maybe, but the STL economy isn't doing well.


My guess; DTW, SLC, CLT, MSP, and TPA (a move from LGW)
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
SJC isn't that long shot. Despite Bay Area being a strong presence of Star, BA has a competitive product that can lure some tech contracts their way (and Silicon Valley is rich as f... so filling front cabin is no issue) Lots of people would appreciate not having to endure 101 highway or San Mateo Bridge to get to SFO.

  . I've been thinking about SJC for a long time.
1. I think SJC would give BA lots of incentives to start service.
2. I do think service to the Silicon Valley is a no brainer contingent on the economy. Those who work there and need to fly to the UK and EU would be very appreciative of not having to drive up to SFO.
3. Next to no weather related delays compared to SFO.
4. Perfect route to start the 787 and if it does well they can eventually upgauge to the 77E or 789.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
CLT; most likely, especially with the merger and US joining Oneworld
MSP; makes sense
PDX; I don't think so
STL; maybe, but the STL economy isn't doing well.


CLT seems like a given since it will become a OW hub with the AA-US merger.
PDX. Not sure if it can support an additional nonstop to the EU with DL flying AMS.
STL. If the demand is there, and they won't have to rely on transfers.
MSP. I don't think so. This is Sky Team-Delta Land. Doesn't DL have this market well covered from there, local and transfer??
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:10 am

IND
CLT
BDL - though better served with an AA 757
MSY

and to think outside the box a bit

ANC


Also - wondering about SMF - does it leak to SFO?

Could they also switch TPA-LGW to LHR?
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:13 am

The 767 could go anywhere in the USA, so why do they need the 787 to make it work? Granted fuel prices are higher now, but when fuel was cheaper, the 767 was viable for these routes.

Except...

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 19):
and to think outside the box a bit

ANC

HNL
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
I'm really surprised LHR-DTW doesn't exist on BA considering LH does FRA-DTW

BA used to fly the route. My very first trip to the US involved a BA Tristar going LHR-DTW with a stop at Mirabel. Concerning FRA-DTW, Germany's car industry might have something to do with this flight.
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:54 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 21):

Correct - IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR. Wonder why BA stopped it - must have been the usual "tag-ons aren't profitable" line. Surely a dedicated DTW-LHR would work with the 787 - although front cabin demand might be lower from DTW than other outstations (such as AUS/SJC).
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:54 am

Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?

DL goes to CDG on a 752. And its doing well. The city of Pittsburgh gave DL $9 Million Dollars in Subsidies. Those expired in 2011 and DL Continues to run the route 6 days a week on a seasonal summer basis.
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:55 am

BDL would be fantastic. Not only is there solid O&D but with the connecting opportunities I don't think they'd have much trouble filling a B787.
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:07 am

CLT, DTW, FLL, CLE, MSY would all be my guesses. PBI or RSW would be good guesses too, but I doubt BA would want to serve them ex LHR.

I'm hesitant to say BDL simply because the market is much more suited towards a flight to LHR on a AA 757.
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:11 am

This should be a fun thread! Here goes...

MSY
CLT
STL
IND
BNA

-Mike
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dtw9
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:13 am

As much as I would like to see BA return to DTW I doubt that it will happen. With Delta going to twice daily DTW-LHR in the spring of 2014 I don't think the traffic is there for a third daily flight
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 18):
. I've been thinking about SJC for a long time.
1. I think SJC would give BA lots of incentives to start service.
2. I do think service to the Silicon Valley is a no brainer contingent on the economy. Those who work there and need to fly to the UK and EU would be very appreciative of not having to drive up to SFO.
3. Next to no weather related delays compared to SFO.
4. Perfect route to start the 787 and if it does well they can eventually upgauge to the 77E or 789.

lets dissect this. not that I do not believe SJC is not a possible candidate.

1) All airports have an incentive plan to try to get new carriers.
2) True, but this is not the hey day of the early dot com bust and if execs need to travel, they are more likely to travel in Y. The distance is no big deal. Try Beijing, London and even NY for traffic nightmares.
3) Weather delays at SFO for long hauls are very rare. They have left their destinations on their way to SFO long before a weather system set in. This year, there have been maybe 4 diverts for long hauls.
4) SJC is a 787 route, long and thin. Unlikely you would see anything bigger. IMO.

ANA is trying to make SJC work, I have heard their winter flight bookings are quite low, and the flight is a coterminal with SFO.
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 22):
- IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR. Wonder why BA stopped it - must have been the usual "tag-ons aren't profitable" line. Surely a dedicated DTW-LHR would work with the 787 - although front cabin demand might be lower from DTW than other outstations (such as AUS/SJC).

ending Bermuda II allowed them to fly from LHR to IAH non-stop so the tags were not needed.
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ATLgaUSA
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:18 am

I can't imagine BA starting MSY. There would be virtually no business traffic, so the yields would be trash. LHR slots are too valuable to start long range, low yielding routes.
 
AR385
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:21 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 22):
Correct - IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR. Wonder why BA stopped it - must have been the usual "tag-ons aren't profitable" line. Surely a dedicated DTW-LHR would work with the 787 - although front cabin demand might be lower from DTW than other outstations (such as AUS/SJC).

I believe you are talking about the LHR-ORD-IAH-ORD-IAH. It stopped because the only reason it had to make that stop was due to the Bermuda agreements and impossibilty of having more than a certain number of nonstops to the UK from IAH. Once open skies arrived, the two cities became nonstop flights.
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
The 767 could go anywhere in the USA, so why do they need the 787 to make it work? Granted fuel prices are higher now, but when fuel was cheaper, the 767 was viable for these routes.

Back when fuel was cheaper BA was heavily restricted on where in the US they could fly from LHR though.
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:42 am

I'm honestly surprised to see several people mention BDL. AMS was hampered by fuel costs, but it wasn't overly successful. I guess I never considered that BDL could sustain a transatlantic flight, though I suppose LHR is a better stop. Could it possibly be served by Openskies? I know they are a strange operation, but a 757 would probably be the best bet on the route. Although I'd love to see some transatlantic flights from my home airport, and I know several businessman that would love it as well.

Besides that
CLT- I agree it is a no brainer with the merger
DTW- I was honestly surprised they didn't serve Detroit, I'd have to imagine it is on the short list.
IND-A little skeptical, but it makes sense.

STL though I am not sold on. Did BA or AA run a LHR flight pre drawdown?
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
SJC; not too sure, I get the tech sector but I assume Asia is much more popular to them than LON.

There is a lot of venture capital sloshing around the south bay, wonder if any of it has any connections to finance centers in London?

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
SLC; could happen.

Hard to imagine that much traffic being generated in SLC proper. Delta only started European flying in the last few years

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
PDX; I don't think so

I'd love to see it, but not sure if there enough traffic for 2 European flights here.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 17):
STL; maybe, but the STL economy isn't doing well.

It would seem to be a bad time to restart trans atalntic travel from STL.
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:51 am

Quoting hjulicher (Thread starter):
DTW
PIT
MSP
PDX
CLT
Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
As for where BA might go? I'm not really sure but my 5 guesses would be:
CLT if merger goes through,
MSP
PDX
BDL
CLE? PIT? STL? I find it hard to see them at any of these.
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 13):
RSW
BDL
CLT
PDX
DTW

Well at least 3 other people believe in PDXs chances. BA has looked at PDX before, there are daily travelers on BAs SEA-LHR flight from the Portland metro area.

I think BA could capture enough Europe bound market share to fill a 787. LHs problem was the loads and yields did not warrant a 340, although I have heard that cargo was good PDX-FRA-PDX.

I think if AUS can support a 787 daily, then PDX can also support a flight.

My 5 guesses:

PDX
SJC
HNL
MSY
CLT

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
HNL
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting hjulicher (Thread starter):
The new flights will use existing slots from BA's short-haul European network. The new routes will be on top of the new services to Austin, TX.

I see far more short haul slots being converted to long haul. Maybe not to the USA, but in general...

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
The 767 could go anywhere in the USA, so why do they need the 787 to make it work?

That would be before the BMI purchase and the expiration of Bermuda II (as already noted by Polot) *and* the poor TATL yield environment of 2008/2009. Now that BA has the slots, it only makes sense in today's fuel environment to do so with a much more efficient plane. Also, doesn't BA run their 767s at a fairly high utilization? Thus there weren't 767s available? (Note the question marks, I'm speculating.)

Quoting Polot (Reply 32):
Back when fuel was cheaper BA was heavily restricted on where in the US they could fly from LHR though.

True. It wasn't until 30 March 2008 that BA could open up more of the USA from LHR instead of LGW. Oil Peaked at $145 in July of 2008, so starting new routes with the 767 back then must have been daunting. Much better economics today with a 787 and oil at a mere

I think much of this is due to recovering yield too. BA now has the rights (from LHR), the slots at LHR, business class passengers flying TATL in J again, and the BMI slots. So only now is BA able to open the new cities.

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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:56 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 19):
Also - wondering about SMF - does it leak to SFO?

No

Quoting laca773 (Reply 18):
3. Next to no weather related delays compared to SFO.

BA hardly feels the effects of ATC delays at SFO. They are not given flow times and other then do some holds on the approach, but mostly run near schedule in bad weather. They could feel a little issue in regards to connection passengers though.
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PDX88
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:12 am

Why are there so many doubters for BA to fly LHR-PDX? With a 787 on the route, DL and BA could coexist profitably. I know there are plenty of business travelers who would much prefer connecting thru LHR instead of AMS. BA isn't shy about going head to head against DL either, recently increasing LHR-SEA to 10x weekly upon DL announcing it's new SEA-LHR service.

BA has seriously considered PDX before...
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:37 am

Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
I would love to see CLE but is there enough traffic that BA could pick up to the network (anyone know?)? PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?

CLE generates about 250 pax per day each way with Europe and the Middle East, with London the largest single traffic point. I'd like to see it too, but I think PIT is more likely if the AA/US merger goes through. There is still a good reservoir of US frequent flyers in PIT to feed the AA/BA joint venture
 
BigGSFO
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:37 am

My guesses are Charlotte (pending merger), Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and Portland, OR. St. Louis is a possibility simply because it is one of the largest US metros with no non stops to Europe. When they announced Austin that was a big surprise, so essentially any medium sized city with a market to Europe and access to corporate accounts could work.
 
ikramerica
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:21 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 32):

Yes I forgot that when fuel was cheaper BII required that one city lose its LHR rights if another city was added. This meant that routes like ANC-LHR were dormant but new cities couldn't be added.
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BigGSFO
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:35 am

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 38):
Why are there so many doubters for BA to fly LHR-PDX? With a 787 on the route, DL and BA could coexist profitably. I know there are plenty of business travelers who would much prefer connecting thru LHR instead of AMS. BA isn't shy about going head to head against DL either, recently increasing LHR-SEA to 10x weekly upon DL announcing it's new SEA-LHR service.

BA has seriously considered PDX before...

AS could expand their relationship with BA to include feed in/out of Portland, the flight might have a chance for success.
 
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:47 am

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 4):
BDL....quite a few companies in both Hartford and Springfield have pledged they would support a reliable trans-atlantic flight.

What has changed in Hartford after NW's BDL-AMS was a flop after just one season? I just don't see BA adding this. Perhaps AA with a 757 in a few years, but not before 4-5 other markets have been tackled.

Quoting hpaeaa (Reply 7):
PIT, wasn't this tried by DL?

Delta has never served PIT-London. They will be starting their 6th year serving PIT-CDG.


CLT is a no brainer. After that I would think MSP, PIT, STL, DTW, SJC in no particular order.

I'm not sure why PDX ranks so high in this thread as it has good service to Europe and beyond via AMS, lost service by LH (IIRC with a travel bank in place), and doesn't particularly have a high number of corporations compared to the others mentioned here.

[Edited 2013-11-06 23:18:33]
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RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:49 am

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 26):
MSY
CLT
STL
IND
BNA

With the exception of CLT since it already has service to Europe, it would be clever of a European carrier to add spokes to those markets. That won't leave much international demand for U.S. carriers to use as feed through their hubs.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
UALWN
Posts: 2169
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:20 am

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 22):
Correct - IIRC it used to continue to IAH so full routing was LHR-DTW-IAH-DTW-LHR.

In the 80s it was LHR-YMX-DTW-YMX-DTW.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340
 
MACDADDY
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:05 am

RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:21 am

Defo Portland, DTW and CLT (with Merger) id say, and heres a long shot with the 787, Hawaii!? - Can it do it on range??

Id really like Boise, ID and Anchorage, AL - but thats just me and id only fly once per year - probably not enough for a service to start, but there you go

MAC
www.plane-sight-images.photoshelter.com
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:27 am

Some I see

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
If the merger goes through I think CLT will be a no brainer

  

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 14):
IND would be interesting.

I can easily see this! IND gets shafted with their air service yet they have an amazing economy.

I see PIT coming back too,

STL,
maybe MSP
maaaaaaybe PDX  
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VCy
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:01 am

RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:32 am

I d also say New Orleans.. No direct service to Europe so why not ? Surely they could make it work with their 787. Just a thought  
 
Johnwaynebobbet
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:25 pm

RE: BA Could Add 5 New Routes To USA From LHR - Walsh

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:17 am

I don't think you will see DTW.

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