Jetfixr757
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UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:00 am

I guess slowly the 767-200 jets of UAL/CAL are being sold off, i see them next to the north hangar in MCO with the livery painted out of the vertical stab and the names and logos removed. Were they ER jets or ETOPS? Wonder who the lucky recipient is that's getting them?
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atcsundevil
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:20 am

They have been out of service for at least six months or more. Some were stored at GYR. They were flown to MCO to exit the fleet and are being sold to UTAir. They were all 767-200ERs. I'm pretty sure all 767s are ETOPS -- if not all, then most of them are. These -ER birds were definitely ETOPS.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:48 am

They're all ER versions and the last pax 762's off the line...most are barely a decade old.

Too bad, cause they're my favorite of the 767's.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:23 pm

Why retire brand new aircraft when they continue to operate the 767?

Was the subfleet to expense to keep?
 
FSDan
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
Why retire brand new aircraft when they continue to operate the 767?

The economics of 762s are inferior to the 763/764, and even to the 757 over comparable distances (although the 762 can be used on much longer missions). That's why AA will also be retiring their 762s in the near future.
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VC10er
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:31 pm

I'm sure I'm wrong and UA right in terms of getting rid of them, but I can think of some routes I'd have liked to see them on; like EWR/GIG non-stop, and some destinations in EE.

Assuming that they could make NYC-Rio.
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MaverickM11
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 3):
Why retire brand new aircraft when they continue to operate the 767?

They have basically the same number of seats as the 739 or 752. The math doesn't work.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:45 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
The economics of 762s are inferior to the 763/764, and even to the 757 over comparable distances (although the 762 can be used on much longer missions).

Since the planes have been retired for a while, this is a moot topic but you make a great point. Everyone is in agreement that UA is desperately lacking mainline capacity. If these 762s could be operated and at least NOT lose money, you'd think it might be worth keeping them until they could be replaced 1-for-1. Even if they only made $1 per flight after all costs, it' still be a positive. The longer Atlantic routes, that really stretch the 757 range at times, would have been a great place to use these aircraft.

I've given up on trying to figure out what UA does in the planning department sometimes so I'll just chalk this up as well.
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American 767
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:47 pm

It's interesting that the 767-200 was reintroduced after being phased out. The ones that just left the fleet are ex-CO 767-224ERs. Prior to the merger in 2011, the PMUA 767-222s were phased out in the middle of the 2000s.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:03 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 8):
Prior to the merger in 2011, the PMUA 767-222s were phased out in the middle of the 2000s.

I remember both AA and UA operated 762s from opposite ends of IAD for years. On the other hand, both UA and AC flew their 762s until they started to unpeel -- literally. Older models were parasitized to keep usable ones flying -- until even those needed D checks. I assume the old UA frames are still being parasitized to keep others flying.
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laca773
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
They have basically the same number of seats as the 739 or 752. The math doesn't work.

If it could hold more cargo, would we have seen it in service longer?

The 762ER was good for long, thin markets across the Atlantic. JFK-BUD/WAW/LED. Fortunately, the 788s are very economical a/c for markets such as these.

I will miss the 762ERs. A very comfortable a/c.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 10):
The 762ER was good for long, thin markets across the Atlantic. JFK-BUD/WAW/LED.

It never was--where are all those flights now? The 762 was especially bad for Eastern Europe, where its high unit costs matched with terrible fares turned into a money pit.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
desertjets
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:31 pm

I always found it an odd choice that Continental chose the 767-200 when the updated their long haul in the late 90s. I get the progression in capacity from the 762 --> 764 --> 777.... but when almost every other US competitor had the 767-300ER as the backbone of the TATL fleet it always seemed like an odd choice.
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FlyHossD
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
They have basically the same number of seats as the 739 or 752. The math doesn't work.

True enough. The first two 767-224ERs surplussed from CO went to Omni - who promptly installed more seats. In other words, CO, then UA, could have reconfigured the aircraft, but chose otherwise.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 7):
The longer Atlantic routes, that really stretch the 757 range at times, would have been a great place to use these aircraft.

Yes, and in fact, they were used from Berlin to EWR during at least one winter.



They were great aircraft to fly and I was very happy to have a chance to do that before I retired. If I had Bill Gates money, I'd have a 762 for my personal ship.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 1):
I'm pretty sure all 767s are ETOPS -- if not all, then most of them are. These -ER birds were definitely ETOPS.

You're correct, all of the sCO B762's were ETOPS. I loved riding them, a true rocket with a comfortable BF cabin and great legs, miss them already when ever I see the sUA B763's.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:51 pm

I'm sad to see these 200's disappear. I always loved the 767-200 as a passenger, the nice twin aisle layout without the dense passenger cabins of the 777 or 747 - of course those are also reasons why they don't make money for the airlines!

I remember flying my first 767-2 ride from Mauritius to LHR back in 1993, and looking at the 767-200 next to the 747SP that Air Mauritius also operated at that time. We'd flown in on the 747SP 3 months ealier and I couldn't help thinking it seemed so small to be flying all the way back to London! Was a great experience though. Enjoyed it very much.
 
CALMSP
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:07 pm

Really gonna miss these birds. Really wish we could have kept these to run out of the EWR market.
 
capitol8s
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:36 pm

There are currently 3 Boeing 767-200's sitting here on the CO/UA maintenance ramp in Orlando.
"Happiness is a flight on a Capitol Air DC-10"
 
onebadlt123
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:59 pm

The 762 was my personal favorite plane to work with. It was an amazingly great performing aircraft, with great comfort. Unfortunately the economics just no longer worked. 175'ish seats just doesn't work with that large and now expensive fleet type to operate.

All sCO 762's were ER's
All were ETOPS
All had the powerful version of the CF6 engines
All were equipped with the best avionics of the fleet type
All were relatively low-tine and low cycle aircraft.

Best aircraft I ever worked with in my career. It was like a fat, powerful, comfortable sports car with all the bells and whistles.

[Edited 2013-11-07 12:04:16]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:24 pm

Fine planes, but as their cost is too close to the 767-300ER, it doesn't stand a chance. Not when A333s, 788s, and soon 789s/A359s will be in the fleet. The CASM is too high.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
The economics of 762s are inferior to the 763/764, and even to the 757 over comparable distances (although the 762 can be used on much longer missions). That's why AA will also be retiring their 762s in the near future.

   Many routes are now flyable with the 738/A320.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
They have basically the same number of seats as the 739 or 752. The math doesn't work.

Interesting detail.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 10):
If it could hold more cargo, would we have seen it in service longer?

Stretches always have far more cargo volume. The 788 will carry about 4 tons more volume.

Quoting Reply 18):
Best aircraft I ever worked with in my career. It was like a fat, powerful, comfortable sports car with all the bells and whistles.

Great for a VIP fleet. But like a sports car, they don't carry enough for the costs. Airlines need a Van.  
Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 13):
If I had Bill Gates money, I'd have a 762 for my personal ship.

Not a bad idea...  


Lightsaber
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onebadlt123
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Great for a VIP fleet. But like a sports car, they don't carry enough for the costs. Airlines need a Van.

Exactly! Great airplane, impractical in today's market.
 
Viscount724
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):

Assuming that they could make NYC-RIO

762ER has the longest range of all 767 models. LY used them on MIA-TLV, abpit 1,600 nm further than JFK-GIG.

Boeing payload-range charts show 762ER range with full passenger and baggage load (no cargo) as 6.600 nm, about 10% more than the 763ER. JFK-GIG is 4,159 nm..
 
tjcab
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:35 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):

Transbrasil JFK-GRU comes to mind...
 
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United787
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting desertjets (Reply 12):
I always found it an odd choice that Continental chose the 767-200 when the updated their long haul in the late 90s. I get the progression in capacity from the 762 --> 764 --> 777.... but when almost every other US competitor had the 767-300ER as the backbone of the TATL fleet it always seemed like an odd choice.

I would be curious as to why they chose the 762 at that point in time? Can anyone explain?
 
CALMSP
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 23):

CO did order the 767-300, and a few of them were made, but never ended up flying in the fleet. These can be identified around the world as they have an L/R2 door. I believe 5 or 6 of them were made.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting calmsp (Reply 24):
CO did order the 767-300, and a few of them were made, but never ended up flying in the fleet. These can be identified around the world as they have an L/R2 door. I believe 5 or 6 of them were made.

5 767-300s were ordered and all were built, but CO was in the midst of a major cash crunch then (late 1994 - early 1995, IIRC) and didn't take delivery. Boeing refunded the deposits to CO, so CO was just able to continue operations. Bethune wrote about this period in his book, "From Worst to First."
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
william
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:25 pm

Wow, I still remember the PMUA commercial when the 767 was first introduced into the fleet. The then CEO walking through the cabin showing off UA's new toy........wish I could find it on youtube.

Hopefully the cabin survives as a 7J7 like replacement airfcraft of the 737 MAX.
 
B757Forever
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting calmsp (Reply 24):
CO did order the 767-300, and a few of them were made, but never ended up flying in the fleet. These can be identified around the world as they have an L/R2 door. I believe 5 or 6 of them were made.
Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 25):
5 767-300s were ordered and all were built, but CO was in the midst of a major cash crunch then (late 1994 - early 1995, IIRC) and didn't take delivery. Boeing refunded the deposits to CO, so CO was just able to continue operations. Bethune wrote about this period in his book, "From Worst to First."

DL acquired on of these 767-324 aircraft from Asiana. It is DL ship 1521.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
Viscount724
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:33 am

Quoting B757forever (Reply 27):
DL acquired on of these 767-324 aircraft from Asiana. It is DL ship 1521.

Thomson Airways has 3 and North American Airlines has the other one.
 
sq256
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:15 am

One of the Thomson Airway's 324ERs was initially delivered to VN, and the NA 324ER was initially delivered to AN and served them until the 2002 liquidation.
 
klkla
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:59 am

How many 767-200ER's did CO have when they merged with United?
 
United1
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:15 am

Quoting klkla (Reply 30):
How many 767-200ER's did CO have when they merged with United?

10
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olympic472
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 13):
They were great aircraft to fly and I was very happy to have a chance to do that before I retired. If I had Bill Gates money, I'd have a 762 for my personal ship.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Not a bad idea...


Done! Not Bill Gates but Google. They have the 767-200s on their fleet. Based out of Moffett.
Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
 
olympic472
Posts: 136
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:22 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
The economics of 762s are inferior to the 763/764, and even to the 757 over comparable distances (although the 762 can be used on much longer missions). That's why AA will also be retiring their 762s in the near future.

What are USAirways plans for their 767-200s?
Civil Aviation has a "Need for Speed"!
 
av8ornta
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:22 am

5 of the 10 CAL 767-224ERs are now flying for UTAir.....same config, however the 4 cabin crew rest seats have been taken out of the inventory...
 
av8ornta
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:29 am

Here's a photo of an ex CAL 767-224ER
 
AR385
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:46 am

Quoting tjcab (Reply 22):
Transbrasil JFK-GRU comes to mind...

The route I flew the most on these ships was IAH-EZE. Nice, long, comfortable ride. I also flew on the AA, AM and LA 767-200ERs. My only complaint is that they were very slow. My MAD-DFW flight was a 10:45 journey. In longish routes, they took up to 1 1/12 to 2 hrs. more than other widebodies. Never figured out why but when travelling on business it was a reason for me to avoid them.
 
Kuja
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 36):
My only complaint is that they were very slow. My MAD-DFW flight was a 10:45 journey. In longish routes, they took up to 1 1/12 to 2 hrs. more than other widebodies. Never figured out why but when travelling on business it was a reason for me to avoid them.

Curious. The 767 does have one of the lowest cruise speeds of any widebody, at Mach 0.80, and normally cruises closer to 0.78 for economy. The A330 is 0.82, econ around 0.80 with the A340 around 0.01 quicker on both. The 777 is 0.85, econ around 0.84 from memory. (Please correct me if any of these figures are out.)

I wouldn't think that the cruise difference would explain the whole 1 - 2 hour deficit, but it could certainly explain some of it.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 23):
I would be curious as to why they chose the 762 at that point in time? Can anyone explain?

That decision was made in the late 1990s. To open new, thin routes. There were plans to keep buying widebodies, but then September 11th happened. Travel collapsed for a long time.


Quoting av8ornta (Reply 34):
5 of the 10 CAL 767-224ERs are now flying for UTAir.....same config, however the 4 cabin crew rest seats have been taken out of the inventory...

Believe UTAir is getting the rest of them. They really like them is the word.
UNITED Would Be Nice
 
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ssteve
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:42 pm

Some Air Force could have gotten some choice planes for tanker conversion if UTair didn't grab these.
 
Viscount724
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RE: UAL Out Of The 767-200 Business

Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 36):
My only complaint is that they were very slow. My MAD-DFW flight was a 10:45 journey. In longish routes, they took up to 1 1/12 to 2 hrs. more than other widebodies. Never figured out why but when travelling on business it was a reason for me to avoid them.

The usual block time difference is much, much less than that. For example, BA scheduled 744 (the fastest widebody along with the A380) LHR-ORD is 8:25. UA and AA 763 9:00 to 9:10. 777 block times about 10 minutes longer than the 744.

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