Falcon Flyer
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Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:57 am

With the Indigo Partners acquisition appearing to move forward, does anyone think Frontier will follow Spirit and JetBlue in obtaining A321s ?
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:28 am

A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model and is -- unlike F9 -- money-making. But, I'm not knowledgeable enough about F9 to know what their high-traffic routes are -- deserving of a 321.

Perhaps Mariner will give some of his sage wisdom to this question.
 
B757capt
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:23 am

Yes.

The new frontier is going to be more aggressive in achieving higher profits. The 321 is an easy way to do that.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:26 am

I'd say it would depend on a number of things. Would Frontiers existing routes warrant a A321??? Does Indigo want to finance or do they want to lease??? Would the acquisition of A321's pay off in the end run?? Lots of things to consider when ordering a new a/c. The good news is that their current pilots would need minimal training if Indigo orders the A321 for Frontier.

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strfyr51
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:59 am

The A321 would do well for f9 shou;d they REQUIRE an A321 sized aircraft.. I thought they were going too small with the A318 and A319 when they went there in the first place and I was proved right, A mix of A319's and A320;s will give them a good mix. for the future, I believe F9 could be a winning company with visionary management. I work with a few of their Ex- Maintenance Controllers and those 3 are 'TOP SHELF".. If Bedford hasn't ruined the rest of their people?? They have a DAMN good chance of making BIG NOISE in the industry..
 
point2point
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 3):
Would Frontiers existing routes warrant a A321???

I don't know that there are that many routes that really 'need' an A321. These big birds are good for carriers that deal with restricted airports, and LGA and DCA are about the only airports as such for F9.

A few years back, it was only UA and F9 on DEN-LGA, and F9 had 3 dailies on the route (and 4 maybe at some points in the summer?). Then as of last year, both DL and WN jumped in and DEN-LGA became clusterf**k, with 4 carriers now and an additional 5-6 daily flights (DL +2, WN +3, UA +1-2), and F9 is now parred down to 2 dailies I believe, choosing not to go head-on with 3 of the 4 largest U.S. carriers here on this particular route. All that being said, maybe under the ULCC model, and with an A321, F9 can go head-on with the gorillas on the route.

DEN-DCA is the other slot controlled airport, and from indications, these 3 dailies are packed to the gills, and big $$$$ for F9, since they only compete with 1 UA daily flight here. This is probably by far the best place F9 could make use of an A321.

Other A321 routes for F9 probably would be DEN-SEA, DEN-SNA, DEN-CUN, and DEN-MCO.

 
 
luv2fly
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:16 pm

No need unless they use them for the slot restricted airports and as others have pointed out they only serve 2 of those.
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enilria
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting Falcon Flyer (Thread starter):
With the Indigo Partners acquisition appearing to move forward, does anyone think Frontier will follow Spirit and JetBlue in obtaining A321s ?

I think they will make sure they can make some money and then order the A321.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):
A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model

I strongly disagree. Right now the two companies hate each other mostly as a result of Indigo flipping. NK wouldn't even be interested until F9 is a threat. They are not yet. In 2 or 3 years if F9 is successful it could happen, but right now it makes no sense for NK. Also, F9 is worth nothing so Indigo would make no money until far down the road.
 
kingcavalier
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:13 pm

I don't think the A321 is only needed in slot controlled airports. F9 could certainly use it on VFR routes like DEN to CUN, MCO, FLL. It's certainly cheaper to put more seats into a market with one A321 flight instead of two A319/A320s. F9 does well on these routes with one flight but seem to trash their yields when they try to add additional frequencies. Operating one larger aircraft instead of 2 smaller aircraft certainly reduces costs.

[Edited 2013-11-11 08:05:19]
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):

DEN-DCA is the other slot controlled airport, and from indications, these 3 dailies are packed to the gills, and big $$$$ for F9, since they only compete with 1 UA daily flight here. This is probably by far the best place F9 could make use of an A321.

You're right. Last time I flew F9 DEN-DCA, every seat was filled. UA is using a 757 on the route. So, F9 using a 321 seems sensible.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model
I strongly disagree. Right now the two companies hate each other mostly as a result of Indigo flipping. NK wouldn't even be interested until F9 is a threat. They are not yet. In 2 or 3 years if F9 is successful it could happen, but right now it makes no sense for NK. Also, F9 is worth nothing so Indigo would make no money until far down the road.

With so many long thin routes, one would think F9 didn't have a business strategy.

But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.  
 
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enilria
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):
But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.

Not sure I agree, those inspirations only came to the F9 folk after BB backed out of active involvement in F9...that's also when F9's fleet plan stopped looking as much like a used car lot. Nevertheless I'm sure he has prayed about it routinely: "Please remove this millstone of failure from around my neck, laid upon me by my own hubris and poor decision making. Please let me find some schmuck to come along receive this bountiful harvest of losses and C-Series jets I ordered while speaking in tongues to that kind airplane salesman."
 
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):

Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

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mariner
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 1):
A few wags have speculated that F9 will be merged into NK who already have a very successful ULCC model and is -- unlike F9 -- money-making.


Franke/Indigo sold their entire holding in Spirit before they bought Frontier. If they wanted to merge the two I think they would have kept Spirit.

A321's? Sure, maybe, good idea, why not? 91% load factors In September seem to indicate a need, at least on some routes.

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rj777
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
Franke/Indigo sold their entire holding in Spirit before they bought Frontier. If they wanted to merge the two I think they would have kept Spirit.

And then we'd have another "What will be the name of the new airline?".... they probably would've kept the Spirit name.... maybe moved the stylized S to the fuselage and slapped the animals on the tails.
 
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:38 pm

Spirits new frontier airways
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point2point
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 12):
Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

The A321s are being used to fly cross-country - BOS-LAX, NYC-LAX, BOS-SFO, NYC-SFO, so I would think that they can go DEN-SNA. Even though IIRC, SNA has a short runway, since it's going eastward and with the winds, I don't think that there's any problems there. And of course, with DEN and their 16,000 ft runway..... that can get a bird to just about do anything that the bird can do......

So yes, I would think (unless someone can inform otherwise) that the A321s could be technically operated with no penalties here, as well as handle this high capacity route.

 
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):
With so many long thin routes, one would think F9 didn't have a business strategy.

There are not that many and several of the long thin routes - or the longest and the thinnest - are paid for by Apple Vacations. DEN-PUJ, e.g..

  

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sunking737
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:21 pm

It would seem to me it would be better to fly more flights with A319/320's then run out and buy/lease larger a/c. Next thing someone will say F9 needs to fly 777/787 on their routes.
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luv2fly
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:32 pm

Its great to run full flights on smaller aircraft and maximize your revenue, adding more seats means more chances of discounting to fill the increased seats.
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FRNT787
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 18):

Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family)?
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MCOflyer
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:25 pm

Wiki says 8400ft but lets take a few things into consideration. I imagine with 27K of fuel and full payload it could probably do it with IAE engines. I'd have to hear from A321 drivers to confirm my numbers. Knowing Frontier, they'd probably opt for GE engines.

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Frontier14
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 20):
Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family

I would expect this to be a consideration also. Given that Indigo's European investment Wizz has just changed part of an existing order of 320s to 321s. But should Indigo choose to do so for their Frontier project, then they will have to open up talks with their pilots. As I understand the current pilot compensation contract, it only covers flying rates up to 199 psgrs.

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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 12):
Can a A321 make it from SNA-DEN????

USAirways owns 90 of them and they criss-cross the country. Oct 5th I flew CLT-SAN on a US 321. This coming Saturday I'll fly PHL-LAX.

Now I'm assuming if they can fly coast-to-coast, then they can make SNA-DEN at 1/3 the distance.  
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:12 pm

I think TTN recent morph needs to be factored into any A321 lease or acquisition. I don't think TTN runway(s) are capable of handling the A321?
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mariner
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 20):
Considering the industry trend favoring the larger models of narrow body aircraft, why is is so shocking Frontier could use, say, 10 A321s (especially given they are the same family)?

Acquisition costs are part of it, of course. Frontier had decided only to acquire A320's (other than the Neo order), but the drop lease rates on the A319 has caused them to look at the A319 with fresh eyes.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 24):
I think TTN recent morph needs to be factored into any A321 lease or acquisition. I don't think TTN runway(s) are capable of handling the A321?

I doubt Frontier will use the A320 at TTN, either, barring an (unlikely?) extension to the runway. TTN may become its own little universe of A319's  

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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.

Not sure I agree, those inspirations only came to the F9 folk after BB backed out of active involvement in F9...that's also when F9's fleet plan stopped looking as much like a used car lot. Nevertheless I'm sure he has prayed about it routinely: "Please remove this millstone of failure from around my neck, laid upon me by my own hubris and poor decision making. Please let me find some schmuck to come along receive this bountiful harvest of losses and C-Series jets I ordered while speaking in tongues to that kind airplane salesman."

Best reply in the thread, so far.   
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):

USAirways owns 90 of them and they criss-cross the country. Oct 5th I flew CLT-SAN on a US 321. This coming Saturday I'll fly PHL-LAX.

Now I'm assuming if they can fly coast-to-coast, then they can make SNA-DEN at 1/3 the distance.

I mean with SNA short runways. LAX, PHL, and CLT all have runways that are longer than the one at SNA. Runways 1L/19R are 5,701ft in length, and that is the longest runway that SNA has.

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mariner
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:35 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 26):
Best reply in the thread, so far.

Oh.

I couldn't work out what it had to do with the topic - Frontier and the possibility of A321's - which at least one analyst thinks will happen:

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...-ready-to-fly-for-a-new-owner.aspx

"To fix these cost issues, I expect Frontier to shift its fleet decisively toward larger aircraft like the Airbus A320 and A321, rather than the A319 that currently makes up around two-thirds of Frontier's fleet."

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point2point
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:46 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 26):
Quoting enilria (Reply 11):
Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 10):But . . . having some success with ILG and TTN -- where so many have failed -- at least proves that someone at F9 goes to church on Sunday.

Not sure I agree, those inspirations only came to the F9 folk after BB backed out of active involvement in F9...that's also when F9's fleet plan stopped looking as much like a used car lot. Nevertheless I'm sure he has prayed about it routinely: "Please remove this millstone of failure from around my neck, laid upon me by my own hubris and poor decision making. Please let me find some schmuck to come along receive this bountiful harvest of losses and C-Series jets I ordered while speaking in tongues to that kind airplane salesman."

Best reply in the thread, so far.   

I have to agree   

That being said, I have to give BB credit in that he did set out what he wanted to do, and that was to eventually sell of F9..... but probably not a a price where total expense is exceeded to show a profit........ BB did however keep this airline alive, and still a good number of folks have jobs there (we'll see what the future brings here) so if it's his prayer that accomplished this, all the more to him.

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 27):
SNA. Runways 1L/19R are 5,701ft in length, and that is the longest runway that SNA has.

Okay, per this site

http://planes.findthebest.com/q/231/...e-Airbus-A321-Jet-need-to-take-off

it says

The Airbus A321 needs a runway that is 5,600 ft long to takeoff at MTOW (Maximum Takeoff Weight). The A321 needs a runway that is 5,052 ft long to land at MLW (Maximum Landing Weight).

I don't know how accurate or source of this info, but if this is true, then the A321 should have no trouble with SNA. Wiki states 8400 ft. for the A321, but somehow I think this is incorrect, because the numbers for the other models wouldn't allow any Airbii to operate at SNA, and they do operate, so.......

 
 
VC10DC10
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 29):

That being said, I have to give BB credit in that he did set out what he wanted to do, and that was to eventually sell of F9..... but probably not a a price where total expense is exceeded to show a profit........ BB did however keep this airline alive, and still a good number of folks have jobs there (we'll see what the future brings here) so if it's his prayer that accomplished this, all the more to him.

Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast?
 
luv2fly
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:42 pm

Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast?

Totally!
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 30):
Sorry to be thick, but is BB some sort of religious enthusiast?
As time allows here is Undercover Boss Frontier Airlines episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBx88q2gR8 BB faith enters the episode at three minute thirty seconds into the episode.

Sue the F9 appearance drill sergeant is a hoot.
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mariner
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:24 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 29):
BB did however keep this airline alive, and still a good number of folks have jobs there (we'll see what the future brings here) so if it's his prayer that accomplished this, all the more to him.

Exactly. If it wasn't for Bryan Bedford there wouldn't be a Frontier airlines. It would be long gone, swallowed by Southwest.

I have no idea what his well-known Christian views have to do with this and - as a non-believer, an atheist, I suppose - I find that a bizarre stick to beat him with, quite apart from the fact that any A321 decision will have nothing to do with him.

mariner

[Edited 2013-11-13 16:29:15]
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VC10DC10
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):

I have no idea what his well-known Christian views have to do with this and - as a non-believer, an atheist, I suppose - I find that a bizarre stick to beat him with, quite apart from the fact that any A321 decision will have nothing to do with him.

It wasn't my intent to beat him. I just didn't know about that aspect of his personality.

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
It would be long gone, swallowed by Southwest.

Swallowed, or more likely just left for dead on the slopes.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier A321s?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 34):
It wasn't my intent to beat him. I just didn't know about that aspect of his personality.

It wasn't directed at you, but at the earlier posts.

mariner
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