SA7700
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Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:30 am

Dear members,

This thread was started in order to discuss the negotiations between Boeing, the IAM and possible other Boeing unions. This include the proposed language to IAM 751 and further developments that may occur in the future.

IAM 751 Proposal

Please stay on topic and discuss Boeing and their Union issues here, instead of in the technical threads about the various Boeing products.

We thank you for your co-operation and hope that you have a positive experience and constructive discussions.


Regards,

SA7700
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strfyr51
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:22 pm

What the IAM believes is happening,, and what BOEING is Telling them is happening might be TWO diivergent ideas. Could be they might want to look at the other industries and see what THRY'RE doing, OR?? NOT do it and get caught in a bind later on. As a more Mature worker? The Trend isn't going forward with the "Gimme it ALL" routine. It's just NOT going to fly.
But!! Union leadership has not always been pragmatic in their planning nor thinking. Though they are necessary because Managment might do all manner of outlandish things were there NO UNION. Especially since hardly ANY of them ( or the VAST Majority ) can turn a wrench. And ?? Might not recognize a B777 model 2 out of 3 times even if they were looking at the SAME airplane !!
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:55 pm

Some observations:

Benefits are often the flash point. I will post on medical later.

Management and labor greatly underestimate how much funding a pension and retirement medical supplemental benefits cost. And management is inclined to malignantly protect quarterly profits and bonuses, hence underfund and let management 30 years later to figure out how to pay those benefits.

Oddly enough most union managed pensions (with the help of Federal oversight) have done OK. An advantage these funds have is that there is no plan b for extra income. The Employer/employee designate part of the entire pay/benefit package to the pensions fund. The employer has NO further obligation. They also can't use the money to play around with, which is so frequently done.

It takes about 18% of salary package to fund a pension that after 30-40 years will provide a 50% pension for those retiring at about 65. Actuaries are very smart, very good and can provide accurate information. They also are grouchy and conservative about their projections. A good pension fund is conservative about what it promises, and then includes cost of living increases in good years. One year bonuses are also a way to dispense extra funds without future obligation.

In boom years on the stock market plans will be overfunded. Nice. Take advantage of the boom. Build reserves. In bust years the plan will move toward being underfunded. No panic, no cost of living increases. The pension fund I am in has a policy that COLAs will require that plan is at 120% funding level. We are not in the Federal plan for pension protection.
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:55 pm

Leeham suggests the mixed signals we've been getting from IAM are the result of a difference of opinion between Local 751 and the International:

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...dnesday-on-boeings-contract-offer/
 
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kanban
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:22 pm

Interesting proposal.. Boeing has been moving this way for years.. employees were encouraged to use the Voluntary Retirement Plan to supplement their pension. In 2000, the pension was $65 per month per year of service.. now I see they are freezing it at $95/mo/year of service. (that's $3800 a month for a 40 year retiree.)

Where the rub comes in with the IAM is many workers don't use the plan, and spend every cent today.. Many move on and accumulate only 10-15 years of service. Very few last 35 years.

A;so noted that the retirement medical remains "as is", if that is like the SPEEA plan, it's only in place until one turns 65, then you must go to Medicare. However, again since few actually retire, there is a whole bunch of emotion over a non event.

Unfortunately the loudest voices will be the "gimmee" crowd that seldom stay for the long haul to receive the benefits they demand.
 
phxa340
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:49 pm

It looks like the leaking of news about Mitsu's proposal to manufacture the wings was strategic to scare the unions.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:55 pm

It is a historical accident that medical insurance in the US is generally through employment. Back when medical care was not all that expensive (nor all that effective - say until about 1965) it was not a burden on business. That is no longer the case. Not only families, but also businesses go bankrupt over the cost of medical care.

Our current system is utterly inadequate to monitor and keep medical costs under control. We spend close to twice as much as other countries per purchasing power parity (PPP). These high costs are a terrible burden on companies who are in a competitive field. It is outside the scope of this forum and this thread to debate the politics of medical care.

But let it be noted that business and the Chamber of Commerce (and similar groups) have not contributed to a solution to this problem. And the percentage of persons getting pensions and medical care has declined precipitously over the last 25 years. It perhaps needs be noted that about all the major high tech foreign competitors have systems to look after pensions and medical insurance, mostly governmental, but not all. Companies needn't be concerned nor waste management time.

And we have repeatedly the Boeing Company and its Unions going to the mat in a kind of extreme combat mostly over two problems than neither of them can solve. Smart! Solutions are not possible when you refuse to acknowledge intractable problems.

[Edited 2013-11-12 15:27:54]
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QANTASvJet
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:31 pm

In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:33 pm



Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 6):
And we have repeatedly the Boeing Company and its Unions going to the mat in a kind of extreme combat mostly over two problems than neither of them can solve.

But those two issues are the big ones. More than wages, medical and retirement benefits are the cost center that Boeing HR is worried over and those are the two things the Union wants to protect (as they're industry-leading).


Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 7):
In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte (North Carolina).

That would be Charleston, South Carolina.  

[Edited 2013-11-12 15:34:44]
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:02 am

Stitch - I kind of agree. But would iterate my two longer posts. Companies need to figure out how to control* both medical and pensions, AND ensure that workers have both. A case could be made for expanding Social Security so that it typically would provide 50% or so of wages. If medical expenses were brought down to European and Japanese costs medical would not be all that much of a problem. We are crippling ourselves as a nation allowing these two issues to destroy companies and workers.

*I was tempted to say dump, but some sort of Federal solution and taxes need to replace them. I suspect what it now costs companies to provide pensions and medical would more than support what I have in mind - and it would not go up faster than inflation.
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F9Animal
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:43 am

Jusf to be clear, the workers in Charleston are screaming to go union again. I knew it would be a matter of time. As for the proposal to the IAM? It is disgusting! A company making incredible profits, threatens workers to accept that garbage? This is the worst proposal Boeing has ever offered. Take this or we put it somewhere else? Pretty nasty tactic if you ask me. If the contract gets voted down, and Boeing moves the work elsewhere, the tax breaks Washington agreed to should be voided.
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:14 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
A company making incredible profits,

This "incredible profit" is a short term windfall. They are battling over long term liabilities.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
, the tax breaks Washington agreed to should be voided.

I believe the tax break does not depend on the Union vote. But it does depend of whether the 777 FA will be built in Washington.
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Chaostheory
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:22 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 11):
They are battling over long term liabilities.

In which case management should lead by example and have their remuneration cut.

After all, they're all in the same boat right?
 
texl1649
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:24 pm

I think the ghost of "old" GM/Chrysler are in the minds of Boeing management today (remember, the union pensioners wound up with ownership there). Giving in periodically to union demands on schedule did not pay off for GM.

Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.

Overruns on actual R and D for the 787 may well have gone as high had most of it been done in Seattle - but the delays, penalties, and c*ck up would like have been largely absent. Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.
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texl1649
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:22 pm

Context matters. The decisions to outsource much of the 787 again rest on animosity which is, at least partially, to blame on the union strategies in 2008. Many American manufacturing industries have lost a vast majority of their former strength/jobs due to similar tactics over several decades (steel/auto).

Boeing's strategy (for engineering and outsourcing/remote mfg) has undoubtedly been expensive and error prone. But the market (stock price), and customers (orders), have supported the move. The IAM I would at this point would not see Long Beach/Alabama as the competition, but rather Airbus/China/Japan/BBD/EMB.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:37 pm

I think this will be a close vote:
http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...022237073_boeingmachinistsxml.html

“It’s not a bluff”

Standing near Wroblewski at the signing ceremony, Conner told reporters that if the Machinists reject the company offer, Boeing’s threat to take the work of building its new 777X jet to another state is dead serious.

“It’s not a bluff,” Conner said. “My sincere hope is we don’t have to even think about that. ... Really, we would prefer not to do that.

“Hopefully we’ll get a good vote on Wednesday, then it’s easy,” Conner added. “This is our preference.”


Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 2):
Management and labor greatly underestimate how much funding a pension and retirement medical supplemental benefits cost.

At some point reality must be faced and normal business case profit margins acheived.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):

It looks like the leaking of news about Mitsu's proposal to manufacture the wings was strategic to scare the unions.

I would say its more factual. Mitsubishi wants the work and is hungry for it. This is a decision that would save Boeing over a billion USD per year. That isn't scare tactics, that is a business decision. I believe the international union realizes this fact while local 751 does not.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 6):

It is a historical accident that medical insurance in the US is generally through employment.

Blame Kaiser and their desire to increase ship building productivity (it worked).  
Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 7):

In answer to the original question - the future is Charlotte.

I'm not as certain. There is an advantage being colocated with engineering. I hope from the 787 Boeing understands those costs better...

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 9):
Companies need to figure out how to control* both medical and pensions, AND ensure that workers have both.

Pensions are too much of a liability. Matched 401Ks are the way to go. As to medical, who would have predicted that over a third of the money goes to the lawyers today? That is unsustainable. The only way to

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 14):
Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.

   But it has a value (or a cost not utilizing it). The goal of Boeing management is to best estimate the cost of doing the work away from the obvious value of the skilled labor force. But the workforce isn't worth an infinite amount. Boeing must be competitive vs. the A35J and probably a longer A35K. We're talking cost differences that will be tens of millions of USD per plane.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Boeing is once again betting the company on the next new model (and missed expensively with the last one). It has to get it's manufacturing costs in order to remain competitive for decades to come.

If the old model isn't competitive with the A35J/A35K sales price, what is Boeing to do?

Besides, look at the OP link. If ratified, Boeing will build 1.5*10^6 square feet of more factory floor space! This isn't about using existing production lines, but rather building a new factory. Where is the best business case? Seattle has a natural advantage due to the talent of the labor pool. But that advantage is worth so much.

The plan seems fair. Freeze pensions in 2016 in return for more funds to the retirement accounts. Everyone is going to defined contribution pensions. There is also an increase to a *very* generous 401k matching. Copays go up to today's standard (better than the alternative...). The prescription drug plan is *very* generous too.

Wage increases are small, but local 751 has high wages by industry standards. Boeing must contain costs. That is the only negative by industry standards I see is the rate of wage increases.

I believe this is a fair deal for local 751. In fact, I think Boeing will pay out billions more on the 777X than if Mitsu and Charleston did the work. I do think Boeing will save 1 or 2 billion keeping the work in Seattle vs. any other deal, so that must be factored in the costs.

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 13):
Giving in periodically to union demands on schedule did not pay off for GM.

   or work allocation...


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texl1649
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:26 pm

I did not intend to imply that the aircrafts themselves are uncompetitive, but that the outsourcing/remote mfg efforts combined were very costly (clearly not "lose the company" costly though).

Labor's colllective decision here (and elsewhere) to politicize in favor of one party/healthcare bill while running away from participating in the markets their bill has produced is a bit amusing.

My family members in UT/TX are certainly all hoping this plays out with a strong no vote!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:35 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 17):
My family members in UT/TX are certainly all hoping this plays out with a strong no vote!

Will Boeing send work to them?  


Yes, Obamacare makes the 'old school' health plans far more expensive. The cost burden must be shared. But overall, Boeing very fair. This is a generous offer when considering how much Boeing's costs have gone up.


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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:00 pm

Voting is in progress.

Quote:
The mood was grim Wednesday as Machinists voted on a proposed Boeing contract extension that could determine whether Boeing builds a major new jet in Washington state.

Union members expressed resentment, anger and betrayal as they walked into Machinists District Lodge 751’s brick headquarters to cast their ballots. The outcome won't be clear until the votes are tallied around 9 p.m.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...hinists-angry-as-they-vote-on.html


Huge turnout in #777X vote by IAM. Lines wrap all the way around Everett lodge. by Jon Ostrower, on Flickr
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:21 pm

This one is quite funny:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BY9tGdXCAAAcdXS.jpg:large
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
This one is quite funny:


Considering how many folks shop at WalMart...   

And if the WalMart plane means cheaper fares (thanks to lower purchase price for the airlines)...   
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 14):
Some of us think, I know it is old fashioned and out of date, that a skilled workforce is an asset.

A skilled workforce is an asset. But the problem (for the unions) is that standardization techniques, QA, training, Six Sigma, etc., are all intended to be able to replicate a skill in just about any location by establishing a minimum threshold. High tech is also becoming the norm, not the exception. Decades ago high tech industries were a form of black art bastions and they were concentrated in a few geographies. Nowadays, college degrees are the norm and cutting edge technologies can be spearheaded just about anywhere with some investment. Long gone are the days when aircraft manufacturing could be done only in one or two locations. Charleston is proof of this new age.

The problem with unions is that they are a relic of the past - a past that no longer exists. They are an anachronism. Strong labor laws have eliminated a lot of the need for a union, such that they are now competing against themselves in an economy that is experiencing 7.8% unemployment and a society that is spitting out educated workers willing to do the job of the union man for a third less than what he is getting paid and a fraction of the benefits. The sooner the IAM members realize this the sooner they can secure their jobs long term in Puget Sound.
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texl1649
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:15 pm

That is funny KarelXWB. The public also doesn't want 10-abreast 777's I guess. But they are voting with their ticket purchases, and always have.

I especially like that his sign is held up on one end by duct tape. (Probably from Wal Mart, made in china).
 
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ER757
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):

That is funny  

Thing is though "the public" aren't the ones buying these 9 figure machines so the point is somewhat moot.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:55 am

I wonder what a no vote would mean for the 777X. I'm serious. Since they already build the 787 wings, Mitsu should be able to build 777X wings for less (in particular with the 'Ro-Ro' concept). Heck, it should cut 787 wing costs (at least to Seattle.)

Am I the only one expecting a 'NO' vote? Note: I do not consider that a good thing.

Layoffs are coming. My old employer is downsizing 8% of their workforce (and will probably downsize another 4% in six months).   My father's employer that he retired from is laying off 18% of their workforce in 60 days... It is ugly out there.

Wait, this contract has a COLA rider! Guaranteed better pay than the cost of living. I'd take that!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
Voting is in progress.

Thank you.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
Union members expressed resentment, anger and betrayal as they walked into Machinists District Lodge 751%u2019s brick headquarters to cast their ballots. The outcome won't be clear until the votes are tallied around 9 p.m.

The union expressed the same emotions last time and in reality just struck to prove a point and really messed up the VA launch among others. In the end, the signed contract wasn't much different from the rejected contract.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 24):
Thing is though "the public" aren't the ones buying these 9 figure machines so the point is somewhat moot.

  

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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
I wonder what a no vote would mean for the 777X.

I expect it depends on how close the vote is.

If the difference is less than 10%, I expect both sides to re-negotiate and come up with an acceptable compromise.

If the difference is greater than 20%, I expect Boeing will conclude IAM 751 is not willing to negotiate and will start actively engaging other states and municipalities, as well as looking at Mitsubishi's offer (especially if NH orders the 777X). I also think they'll look at a new primary FAL site for the 737 MAX, as they can expect the IAM 751 to strike in 2016.

Last I read, IAM 751 have scheduled initial media contacts around 7:30PM Pacific.

[Edited 2013-11-13 19:08:42]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:30 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
If the difference is less than 10%, I expect both sides to re-negotiate and come up with an acceptable compromise.

I think Boeing will look at Mitsubishi's offer if there is any no vote. I would assume they would also look at some of the other state offers. Jobs are scarce right now. I'm certain Washington state's offer could be beaten. But I'm only talking wings and certain sub assemblies. I personally would be shocked if body or final assembly moves.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
I also think they'll look at a new primary FAL site for the 737 MAX, as they can expect the IAM 751 to strike in 2016.

They can only look starting in 2016. Until then, the contract prohibits Boeing doing anything substantial. If this contract is approved, 737MAX production is secure in Washington.

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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:09 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
If this contract is approved, 737MAX production is secure in Washington.

Indeed it will be, but if they vote no, Boeing could just renege on the promise since I can't see IAM 751 giving any ground.

However, Dominic Gates at The Seattle Times believes IAM 751 will reject it based on the mood of those who voted "No". Should know shortly as the last ballots are being counted (8:10PM PST).

[Edited 2013-11-13 20:40:07]
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:38 am

Still no official word, but it could be as much as 2 to 1 against the proposal. The "No" votes were very...aggressive...with their peers and they're currently giving IAM officials a fair bit of flak for supporting the proposal.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
Still no official word, but it could be as much as 2 to 1 against the proposal.

If thats the case, WA can kiss the 777X good bye. IAM members need a reality check. They are simply not competitive in 2013. The skills that they possess can and will be duplicated elsewhere. Ironically one of the most vocal critics they interviewed was a forklift driver ....
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:59 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 30):
If thats the case, WA can kiss the 777X good bye. IAM members need a reality check. They are simply not competitive in 2013. The skills that they possess can and will be duplicated elsewhere.

Based on the comments, the "No" votes believe Boeing can't afford to let them go and that the 787 fiasco proved they're too valuable to leave behind and that Boeing management is not serious about moving. The "Yes" votes accept that they can be replaced, so they're willing to accept concessions for long-term stability.

Regardless, it seems certain that the union has rejected the contract. The only question is by how much.

[Edited 2013-11-13 21:00:09]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:04 am

IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:04 am

IAM voted it DOWN as per the live Seattle Times blog.

67% no
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
Indeed it will be, but if they vote no, Boeing could just renege on the promise since I can't see IAM 751 giving any ground.

They could. After 2016.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 30):
If thats the case, WA can kiss the 777X good bye.

Agreed.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 31):
Regardless, it seems certain that the union has rejected the contract. The only question is by how much.

Is it rejected? I'm staying up to find out the results and see no information.

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timpdx
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:12 am

lightsaber go to the Seattle Times website. results in. the proposal went down hard.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:12 am

That is a 2:1 margin. Hard to see how that big of a gap can be overcome.

Next stop Japan. Was really looking forward to a story about cutting edge technology coming back. Looks unlikely.

tortugamon
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:12 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):

Unreal. Well I understand why they did it, but they aren't basing their demands to align with current market conditions. I hope Boeing picks Long Beach, I have many qualified friends that would love the work down here and kill for the benefits the IAM just turned down.
 
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:13 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Is it rejected? I'm staying up to find out the results and see no information.

On komo news site ...

Boeing machinists reject contentious contract proposal

excerpt ...

Quote:
...
Boeing machinists overwhelmingly rejected a contentious contract proposal Wednesday night that would have exchanged concessions for decades of secure jobs.

When the ballots were counted, 67 percent of the machinists voted "no" on the contract.
...


[Edited 2013-11-13 21:14:28]
 
phxa340
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):

I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:21 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):
Next stop Japan.

Not necessarily Japan, but I would not be surprised if Boeing sites the 777X assembly outside of PAE. I could see them choosing someplace other than CHS just for redundancy purposes (should a natural or physical disaster affect plant operations).
 
tortugamon
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):

You may be right.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):

I was referring to the wings at least. I do expect the FAL to be in the YS as well.

tortugamon
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

Wow. Those guys are shockingly out of touch with reality.

I have a bad feeling this will have a noticeable impact on this regions economy in the future.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:08 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):
I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.

We'll see. I got the sense the union members were as upset about the process as they were about the actual terms of the offer. I'm sure Boeing will at least be talking to union leadership to understand what the membership thinks. If the concessions needed to bring the union around are small and/or mostly stylistic, they may have another go. If the membership will only accept something much costlier, then off to Alabama (or wherever) it is.

[Edited 2013-11-13 22:08:41]
 
707lvr
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:48 am

The title of this thread, something about future .. union .. Boeing? Call it OVER. We've known that for some time as Seattle moved on when the Company left town.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:51 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

Honestly, I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).

[Edited 2013-11-14 00:52:14]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
Honestly, I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).

Well they appear to believe Boeing is bluffing and that their jobs are safe so they should not have to accept that level of concessions. *shrug*
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:14 am

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 39):
I wouldn't expect Boeing to come back to the negotiating table with that margin.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 43):
We'll see.

Well, Boeing execs are already heading to other states, so it seems.

http://twitter.com/GlennFarley/status/400870055434391552

[Edited 2013-11-14 01:15:38]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:22 am

I now give the odds of 777X wing production being outside Washington at 50%+. This isn't over, but the message is clear.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):

IAM 751 has rejected the contract offer by a massive margin - 67% against.

Wow... Just wow. That is a clear message.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 42):
I have a bad feeling this will have a noticeable impact on this regions economy in the future.

The region will do fine with Amazon, Microsoft, and other tech companies. I still do not think Boeing will move 777 body assembly out of the region. However, wing production/assembly is now more likely to go than to stay.

Quoting timpdx (Reply 35):

lightsaber go to the Seattle Times website. results in. the proposal went down hard.

Yep.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 36):

That is a 2:1 margin. Hard to see how that big of a gap can be overcome.

I'm not sure its worth trying at this juncture for Boeing. The union membership is demanding a line be held that isn't going to be (not sharing health care costs and terminating defined benefit pensions). On the 777X, it isn't worth coming back to the negotiating table until other bids have been solicited.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):
Well they appear to believe Boeing is bluffing and that their jobs are safe so they should not have to accept that level of concessions. *shrug*

Yep. They union made their decision. Now it is for Boeing to make their decision. This time, there is no strike. This time Boeing has a few years to organize and show if they were bluffing or not when the contract expires in 2016.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 45):
I never believed they would massively vote against it because in the end, you still want to have a job in the future (IMO).

I thought it would be defeated, but not by this margin. I expected a compromise that would allow local #751 to declare a victory (e.g., continue the pension a year or two more), but this is such a resounding message that it isn't even worth considering coming back to the table for a year.

Airlines should be aware in 2016 this certainly means a strike.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Boeing And Their Unions - The Future?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:40 am

Well it won't be CHS IMO, since they stated (whether truly or not, I don't know), that they are thinking LGB,HSV or UT. They say CHS is out due to need to focus n 787 production and whatnot.
I told guys at work this afternoon I guessed it would fail 69-31%, so was close.

Anyway, good luck to them and whatever happens.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

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