SCQ83
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Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:38 pm

Norwegian to start its 5th Spanish base in MAD with routes to ARN, HAM, HEL, LGW, OSL and WAW, in addition to CPH - already operated -, from S14.

http://media.norwegian.com/en/#/pres...d-its-spanish-route-network-927236
 
smbukas
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:25 pm

They will rule the world or ... they will eat themselves.

I personally become more and more sceptic on Norwegian developments.
 
stlgph
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:32 pm

Talk about ambition.

Norwegian will hire about 100 folks for the Madrid expansion.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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Alsatian
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:33 pm

Quoting smbukas (Reply 1):
I personally become more and more sceptic on Norwegian developments.

With Bjorn Kjos as CEO, I am quite optimistic. Time will tell.
Ok I am French but I am not on strike
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting smbukas (Reply 1):
I personally become more and more sceptic on Norwegian developments.

Why ?

Apart from the problems With the Dreamliners for a period, he has been doing great so far.
 
smbukas
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 4):
Apart from the problems With the Dreamliners for a period, he has been doing great so far.

Have they succeeded anywhere outside Nordics? Data, which are available (from LGW for example) shows they are not. (They failed at WAW few years ago). Now they are going to MAD where FR and U2 reduced as they found the market for LCC just not here, at least for now.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see where they will go next.
 
OB1504
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:33 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 2):
Norwegian will hire about 100 folks for the Madrid expansion.

Will they work for Norwegian or be contracted out?
 
LN-KGL
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:50 pm

I think this quote from a Norwegian 15 October press release will give you some answers OB1504:

- In line with legal developments in Europe, fully owned country-specific resource companies will be established
- Hired pilots will be offered permanent employment locally in the respective resource companies. Pilots in Finland are the first to be offered permanent employment by the first quarter 2014. Pilots at bases in Spain and England will follow.
 
spantax
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting smbukas (Reply 5):
Now they are going to MAD where FR and U2 reduced as they found the market for LCC just not here, at least for now

Data for 2013, JAN-OCT. Pax at Spanish airports.

Ryanair: 29 million
Vueling: 20
Air Europa: 11,6
Iberia: 11,2
Easyjet: 10,6

Well, it seems that LCC are not having such a bad time in Spain... Norwegian could also fly domestic routes, as Ryanair is doing (becoming, by the way, a kind of "Spanish flag carrier"), because there should be some possibilities.
A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
 
Aisak
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting smbukas (Reply 5):
Now they are going to MAD where FR and U2 reduced as they found the market for LCC just not here, at least for now.

Well, that might be the idea. There is a plan set by AENA (spanish airports owner) to deeply discount airport fees to airlines willing to start new routers. This is to help recover from the "sudden" lost of traffic at spanish airports once they came up with the idea of raising fees up to 100% last year at MAD & BCN.
 
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Alsatian
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting spantax (Reply 8):
Ryanair: 29 million
Vueling: 20
Air Europa: 11,6
Iberia: 11,2
Easyjet: 10,6

Do you confirm that UX carried more pax than IB ?!
Ok I am French but I am not on strike
 
spantax
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 10):
Do you confirm that UX carried more pax than IB ?!

Yes.

Air Europa: 11.643.761
Iberia: 11.230.016

Source: AENA

http://www.aena-aeropuertos.es/csee/...gename=Estadisticas%2FEstadisticas
A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 10):

Do you confirm that UX carried more pax than IB ?!

Yes, they did.
http://noticias.lainformacion.com/ec...septiembre_LwB9UmltAfv95opVMGSz13/

Saludos,
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
mfc
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:16 pm

Quoting spantax (Reply 11):
Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 12):

Air Europa carried more pax than Iberia MAINLINE, if you add the passengers from Iberia Express and Air Nostrum the figures are different.

Un saludo,

Martín

[Edited 2013-11-11 15:17:18]
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
invaders
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:58 am

Quoting smbukas (Reply 5):
Have they succeeded anywhere outside Nordics? Data, which are available (from LGW for example) shows they are not. (They failed at WAW few years ago). Now they are going to MAD where FR and U2 reduced as they found the market for LCC just not here, at least for now.

Well if its avaible, why not point in the direction of a source? If you look away from they big failure in Poland a few years ago the only place outside the Nordics they have operated is the Gatwick-base, wich opened last year. Bit early to say if they suceeds or not  
 
stationmanager
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:20 am

Quoting spantax (Reply 11):

It is not true.

You are misunderstanding the statistics. These stats count domestic PAX four times. 1 PAP travelling MAD-AGP-MAD is counted twice at MAD and AGP while 1 PAP travelling MAD-ORD-MAD is counted twice at MAD only. So UX due to is operating more domestic flights seems to carry more PAX than IB. In fact, at MAD only, IB carried more PAX than UX.

And yes, spanish media misunderstood the statistics too.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:33 am

DY seem to be doing very well out of LGW... Some people I know in London have used them to fly south and love the wifi especially... the prices seem to be very competitive too.

Question.. Does DY have a cabin crew base out of LGW?
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (738), OSL-CPH (320), CPH-LHR (321), LHR-HEL (359), HEL-LHR (359)
 
palmjet
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:32 am

Quote:
DY seem to be doing very well out of LGW... Some people I know in London have used them to fly south and love the wifi especially... the prices seem to be very competitive too.

They do seem to be popular here - I've flown with them twice this year out of LGW and the flights have been excellent. I haven't seen formal numbers though.

Quote:
Question.. Does DY have a cabin crew base out of LGW?

Yes they do.
Eastern - Number One To The Sun
 
BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:48 am

Don't compare Spain to Madrid.. Apples to oranges.

Easyjet failed in madrid, and so have Ryanair.

Now, what do Norwegian think they will do differently?

Brand recognition? No - unknown airline
Fares? No - higher cost base
Frequency? No

Spreading themselves too thinly. Too many bases all over the place.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
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Alsatian
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:12 pm

Quoting stationmanager (Reply 15):

Thank you for the clarification. I was wondering how it was possible just regarding their fleets :

IB : 32 A340/330s and 42 32Ss (+ 16 320s for I2)
UX : 13 330s , 19 738s and 11 E95s
Ok I am French but I am not on strike
 
bjorn14
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:29 pm

At least initially DY is basically only flying to their bases in the Nordics. Really just a move to cut expensive Nordic cabin crews.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
invaders
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18):
Don't compare Spain to Madrid.. Apples to oranges.

And yet you do the same. Did Easyjet fly to the any of the nordic countries?

I feel that Madrid have been a "try and fail" thing for both SAS and Norwegian the last year.

Norwegian have actually flown from Oslo to Madrid in the past(2008) but I guess it got cut as the global recession hit us with full force.

SAS even tried BGO-MAD (in 2011 with departures on sat), so will be interesting to see if scandinavians want to use this offer now that its back
 
BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting invaders (Reply 21):
And yet you do the same. Did Easyjet fly to the any of the nordic countries?


So, Norwegian is opening a base to fly to the Nordics only?

Easyjet tried a good mix of domestics and European routes from Madrid. They were not a success.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
VC10DC10
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:30 pm

Question for European A.netters: is the "Norwegian" brand an asset or a liability for non-Nordic routes?
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18):
Easyjet failed in madrid, and so have Ryanair.

Now, what do Norwegian think they will do differently?

Brand recognition? No - unknown airline
Fares? No - higher cost base
Frequency? No

Norwegian got something Ryanair and Easyjet don't have ... ** CLASS ** ... On Rynair and Easyjet you feel like you are flying on a Budget airline. Not so much with Norwegian. Look's much fresher and elegant than SAS for instance ...
 
SCQ83
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:28 pm

easyJet closed its base and Ryanair decreased flights for several reasons (discussed in this forum multiple times).

MAD had a formidable, "Asianesque" growth for most of the 2000s, with double-digit growth a few times during that decade. Even with the current collapse of passengers (a drop of 20% from 2011), 2013 will close with the same numbers as 2004-2005... so even in historical perspective is not as bad as it seems. Then MAD had the lowest taxes among any major European airport (reason for which Ryanair set up shop in MAD)... formidable growth + low taxes... everyone and their dog opened bases and routes right and left from MAD. The market was clearly overheated... Ryanair just opened routes to very secondary markets (on a very Ryanair style), and easyJet competed in most major European markets with Iberia, the local legacy and sometimes Ryanair, Vueling or other local low-costs. So at some point you might end up having 3 or 4 carriers competing to places like Copenhagen or Warsaw... from Madrid. Sustainable?

Then the global crisis came, the rise in the prices of fuel... and the recession in Spain that has been tough... and Madrid is a market based on local demand (contrary to most markets in Spain which are tourist destinations)... taxes in MAD rose a lot (some taxes for non-EU flights multiplied more than ten-fold... maybe not a big deal for a US legacy flight... but tell that to Ryanair and easyJet competing with IB or RAM in a short hop Madrid-Morocco - a non-EU flight -...). Add then the high-speed train centered in Madrid that has basically made redundant air travel for most Madrid - secondary cities.

So suddenly easyJet and Ryanair found themselves in a situation where their numbers did not work anymore: taxes increased, fuel prices increased, demand dropped, air travel in some destinations disappeared overnight other than for connections (thanks to the new high-speed trains)... from 2008/9 to 2013... there has been an adjustment in capacity and destinations... a "back to reality"... Norwegian is setting shop in 2014 with this new reality, and there are signs that the economy is rebounding.

So whether easyJet and Ryanair have been decreasing numbers in MAD does not mean that Norwegian cannot be successful.

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 23):
Question for European A.netters: is the "Norwegian" brand an asset or a liability for non-Nordic routes?


I don't think it is a liability. Norwegian projects a cool yet rigorous image... that I think works well everywhere in Europe. Probably the main issue is that it is not that evident that you will fly a "Norwegian" carrier from MAD to WAW... but it is not much different than Alaska Airlines flying between LAX and MEX.
 
r2rho
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RE: Norwegian To Open Base In Madrid - 6 New Routes

Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 25):
So whether easyJet and Ryanair have been decreasing numbers in MAD does not mean that Norwegian cannot be successful.

Excellent summary of the past decade at MAD, couldn't have said it better. I agree that Norwegian is fully aware of the new reality at MAD, they have not based their business plan on 2007 boom figures. Time will tell, but I think they can take over the gap left by U2 when the economy rebounds. And in the short term they can take advantage of the fee reductions. Six routes is a moderate size base, they are not going all out crazy, it can be suistainable.