kamloops
Topic Author
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Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:44 pm

I checked and didn't see anyone reporting this news from Turkish Airlines

"Turkish Airlines has announced that it will add YUL to its route map, with thrice-weekly flights to IST beginning June 3rd, 2014.
The carrier is also boosting its YYZ service, shifting from 5 to 6 flights per week beginning March 30, 2014.
Fares and YR surcharges will be the same for both Canadian gateways.

TK continues its ambitious growth path – the carrier already flies to more destinations worldwide than any other airline – 239 cities in 105 countries... and counting."

URL: http://www.openjaw.com/stories/story...-to-add-yul-increase-yyz-frequency

I wonder if Vancouver would ever be in their sights?
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:47 pm

Yay!!!!

I hope they offer Comfort Class from YUL. And I hope they offer a shuttle bus service to YOW like LX/LH/AF/KL.
 
a380787
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:49 pm

TK completely showing EK/EY/QR the middle finger by having the same number of Canadian frequencies as the Big 3 combined

I wonder if something like IST-YVR is too long-n-thin to be profitable with today's planes ?
 
kamloops
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:03 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):

I wonder if something like IST-YVR is too long-n-thin to be profitable with today's planes ?

I think there is a chance, since EK is doing SEA-DXB, I think TK could offer good connections to India.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:08 pm

Yes revised bilateral from a few months back allows increase in weekly services between Turkey and Canada.

YUL launch and YYZ increase was discussed further in the Turkish Av thread.
Turkish Aviation November 2013 (by TK787 Oct 31 2013 in Civil Aviation)

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
modesto2
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting kamloops (Thread starter):
I checked and didn't see anyone reporting this news from Turkish Airlines

Even if it was previously discussed, I'm glad you started its own thread now. Few people have the time and patience to search for a discussion that's buried in an obscure thread from months ago.

It's great to see TK continue its North America expansion. With SFO's Star dominance, I wonder how long before ISTSFO is announced...
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:55 pm

IST-BOS is already coming, and the next US destination is rumored to be SEA. Of course, SFO, DTW, MIA and DFW can't be too far behind.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:04 pm

Looks like me and ASA had the frequency for YUL and the upgauge for YYZ right on the money !

Turkish Aviation October 2013 (by TK787 Sep 30 2013 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5883605&searchid=5910138&s=turkish+October+2013#ID5910138

Replies 91 & 94.

Just like Hannibal says in the A-Team..."I love it when a plan comes together ! "

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
tortugamon
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:07 pm

Is it safe to assume this service will be done by their new 77Ws?

tortugamon
 
Noise
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 8):
Is it safe to assume this service will be done by their new 77Ws?

tortugamon

A330 to YUL.
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:25 pm

Congratulations TK you have come a long way from your inaugural flights to YYZ with the A340s!! Always a pleasure to see a TK 77W come in to land at YYZ

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
TK completely showing EK/EY/QR the middle finger by having the same number of Canadian frequencies as the Big 3 combined

With Egyptair, Ethiopian and most recently Saudia operating from YYZ, I wonder how much North African traffic EK and EY are losing, and now with TK going almost daily, they must be getting a lot of full planes on the YYZ-IST route and beyond...

Besides KLM is always aggressively advertising for flight to Dubai...currently have flights for CAD 986...Insane!

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 8):

Is it safe to assume this service will be done by their new 77Ws?
http://airlineroute.net/2013/11/06/tk-yyzyul-s14/

It's with the A330s
 
a380787
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 10):
With Egyptair, Ethiopian and most recently Saudia operating from YYZ, I wonder how much North African traffic EK and EY are losing, and now with TK going almost daily, they must be getting a lot of full planes on the YYZ-IST route and beyond...

EK being a bully and refusing to launch 6x daily service. Now they're paying the price by having Star carriers undercut them left and right.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:41 pm

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 10):
and now with TK going almost daily, they must be getting a lot of full planes on the YYZ-IST route and beyond...

In this Turkish news item on a TK 77W YYZ-IST that made a medical diversion to YQX a couple of weeks ago, it says there were 280 passengers, or roughly an 83% load factor.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=121654

They should have used a stock photo of a 777 rather than a 737 to illustrate that item. I also wonder whether TK has put Concorde back into service, reference the 1-hour flight time YYZ-YQX. Block time on that 1,084 nm sector would be around 2.5 hrs.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:55 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
it says there were 280 passengers, or roughly an 83% load factor.

Is that good or bad for mid-November?

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 10):
It's with the A330s
Quoting ytz (Reply 1):
I hope they offer Comfort Class from YUL.

Yep. I suppose that rules out Comfort Class, though I'm hoping they'll surprise us.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 11):
EK being a bully and refusing to launch 6x daily service.

Ah, this again. EK's biggest mistake was...its failure to hire a fortune teller during the negotiations, years before EY came into existence. That's why it didn't object to a clause limiting any carrier to 3 weekly frequencies, with the other government having a veto over 4, 5 and 6.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
TK completely showing EK/EY/QR the middle finger by having the same number of Canadian frequencies as the Big 3 combined

TK gives them the finger in Canada; they give TK the finger in South Asia. Or maybe none of them really give a damn about each other on a route-by-route basis.
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 11):
EK being a bully and refusing to launch 6x daily service. Now they're paying the price by having Star carriers undercut them left and right.

Wait. EK is being a bully because they didn't fight a (likely) Canadian inserted clause that limited them to 3X per week?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 13):
Yep. I suppose that rules out Comfort Class, though I'm hoping they'll surprise us.

Surprised about this. I would think with the Middle Eastern market in YOW and YUL, that they might have a good market for CC from YUL. I wonder if it's simply that they are limited by the number of airplanes. Love TK. But can't say that the 330s are all that comfy, when compared to the 77W. And that sucks when flight time to YUL is only 40 mins less than the flight to YYZ.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 14):
Surprised about this. I would think with the Middle Eastern market in YOW and YUL, that they might have a good market for CC from YUL. I wonder if it's simply that they are limited by the number of airplanes. Love TK. But can't say that the 330s are all that comfy, when compared to the 77W. And that sucks when flight time to YUL is only 40 mins less than the flight to YYZ.

Last I heard, Comfort Class was going to be discontinued completely. On the other hand, the same report said that they would be making Y more comfortable....whatever that means. Haven't seen anything tangible from TK itself, so here's hoping.

If they put the 77W on the route, it may have Comfort Class. But the 77W fleet is stretched - they've even leased 9W 777s for some routes. And I don't know if the 330s will get Y+. Granted, I haven't been following it closely.
 
flyyul
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:37 am

Are the TK A330-300 less comfortable than the 777-300s?
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
Are the TK A330-300 less comfortable than the 777-300s?

Just look at Seatguru. I'd say yes. And I have always found a notable difference switching from a TK 77W at IST to a 332 for a BOM flight. Now, I usually don't mind the 332 for a 6 hour flight. But for a 10 hour flight? Not so sure.

Then again, I suppose we should be grateful that this isn't an AC 77H to IST!
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:35 am

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 10):
Congratulations TK you have come a long way from your inaugural flights to YYZ with the A340s!! Always a pleasure to see a TK 77W come in to land at YYZ

I knew I had a pic of the inaugural flight of TK 17 on Jul 11, 2009  http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/82...gin-flights-to-toronto-canada.html

 
ASA
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):
Looks like me and ASA had the frequency for YUL and the upgauge for YYZ right on the money !

Yup ... "Great minds think alike!" 

Congrats on TK's Canada expansion ... my brother in YOW will be very happy!
 
Marco
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:23 am

TK giving EK the finger?

To be honest, Canada doesn't rank that high on any airline's list. That's why most airlines remove first class, etc on flights to Canada. It's a low yielding and relatively small market. EK is more interested in higher yield US routes, and they currently fly to SFO, LAX, DFW, IAH, JFK, SEA, IAD and BOS (soon) - I doubt EK is losing any sleep over daily flights to YYZ or YUL. In fact, it's the Canadian consumer who is paying higher prices in order to subsidise a failing airline (AC).

EK has just posted record profits for H1 2013, has received its 38th A380, is the largest operator of the 777 and is doing extremely well in connecting continents (yields, load factors, etc). EK sponsors Arsenal, is the first private company to be named on London's tube map and is a major brand not just in the transport industry, but globally (rugby in Australia, tennis in USA).

This Canadian superiority complex is getting very old; it's time to embrace the 21st century and competition. BA is surviving and in fact posted excellent profits despite EK's aggressive strategy in the UK. If AC can't stand up against competition, let it die.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Steelyman
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:08 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 17):
Just look at Seatguru. I'd say yes

333 is as comfortable as 77C, or even more comfortable for C passengers.
332 is a older and therefore the product not as good as 333 or 77C, but still comfortable. I usually fly the 332 on routes such as KIX and it is not that bad.
BRGDS, Mike
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:19 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
To be honest, Canada doesn't rank that high on any airline's list.

Really, then why would Ethiopian who also increased frequencies, Egyptair and Saudia show an interest in flying to Toronto? And don't forget Aer Lingus from summer 2014. Also Turkish is getting increased frequencies, going to double the amount of flights in five years. Oh and wait, PIA is going to four times weekly now and while I'm at it Jet Airways now flies A333s instead of A332s. So there, hopefully that gives you an idea how Canada is quite high on most airline's lists.

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
I doubt EK is losing any sleep over daily flights to YYZ or YUL.

In that case they might as well just pull out of YYZ  ....or it won't be long with all these new flights and frequencies of the other carriers taking traffic, they would see the loads drop and actually pull out themselves....

They could learn from Etihad over not losing any sleep. I've seen Etihad go full on all flights in the past three years I have been going with them, besides their service is consistent and not hit and miss like Emirates.
 
Marco
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:33 am

All the carriers you mentioned serve the new immigrant populations of Canada, i.e. low yielding VFR traffic (non-priority routes). If you think Canada is a priority market and that makes you happy, by all means continue believing that.

As to your second comment, it's quite sad that a country such as Canada, known for its diplomacy and reasonableness, has embarked on a juvenile mission and is resorting to tit for tat tactics. Much to your disappointment, EK is doing well to YYZ and will likely continue flying there. The Canadian consumer, however, will miss out on the opportunity of having a daily flight to Dubai, which is probably one of the most well connected cities in the world. It says more about Toronto rather than Dubai.

In the meantime, the rest of the world (Australasia, South America, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, the subcontinent and Asia) will have the luxury of travelling on EK, with multiple daily frequencies, access to EK lounges (growing number worldwide) and easy access to the financial, entertainment, tourist, aviation and conference hub of the Middle East!

Have fun flying Air Canada!
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:57 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
All the carriers you mentioned serve the new immigrant populations of Canada, i.e. low yielding VFR traffic (non-priority routes).

I don't think you know that the breakdown of passengers on Emirates are nothing but the new Immigrant populations of Canada and the flights have nothing but people from the Indian subcontinent...take them all out and the big whale will be flying empty back to Dubai.

It's high time people from the Indian subcontinent actually flew back with their own airline carriers, with the exception of Biman and Sri Lankan which don't fly here but then they could always take Air Canada to London and connect from there.

So you say low yielding VFR traffic a.k.a Indian subcontinent folk, the same folk that are used as cheap labour in Dubai that cause EK to have those double and triple dailies to fly them back and forth. Just pathetic the way the poor masses are treated there, at least in Canada you have your dignity no matter what you do!!

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
As to your second comment, it's quite sad that a country such as Canada, known for its diplomacy and reasonableness, has embarked on a juvenile mission and is resorting to tit for tat tactics

It was the UAE after all who resorted to suddenly have visas for Canadians, when it was purely Visa on arrival...

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
The Canadian consumer, however, will miss out on the opportunity of having a daily flight to Dubai, which is probably one of the most well connected cities in the world. It says more about Toronto rather than Dubai.

Toronto serves as a major hub for connecting traffic who do not wish to fly via the US...Go figure!!

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
Have fun flying Air Canada!

I for one am proud to fly on Air Canada, and whenever I have the opportunity I definitely do!!
 
Marco
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:18 am

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 24):
I don't think you know that the breakdown of passengers on Emirates are nothing but the new Immigrant populations of Canada and the flights have nothing but people from the Indian subcontinent...take them all out and the big whale will be flying empty back to Dubai.

You simply confirmed my point - that Canada is essentially a VFR market with a few primary business routes (LHR, NYC, LAX, FRA, etc) and therefore likely not a priority for most airlines. Not being a priority does not mean that airlines won't fly there or upgrade aircraft types. However, if an opportunity cost is involved, I doubt airlines would lose sleep over YUL or YYZ.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 24):
It's high time people from the Indian subcontinent actually flew back with their own airline carriers, with the exception of Biman and Sri Lankan which don't fly here but then they could always take Air Canada to London and connect from there.

Errr...what happened to people making their own choices? This is a scary statement - please don't tell others what they "should" do...

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 24):
So you say low yielding VFR traffic a.k.a Indian subcontinent folk, the same folk that are used as cheap labour in Dubai that cause EK to have those double and triple dailies to fly them back and forth. Just pathetic the way the poor masses are treated there, at least in Canada you have your dignity no matter what you do!!

The UAE is a country that was created 41 years ago, and is modernising at a rapid rate. UAE labour law, while not the best in the world, is generally considered to be very employee friendly. Yes, there is no minimum salary, however Emirati's are not putting guns to peoples' heads and forcing them to work in the UAE. Shouldn't their home countries (India, Pakistan, Phillipines, etc), with rich corrupt fat cat bureaucrats be held equally responsible for not re-distributing wealth?

Furthermore, I am not sure if this thread is the appropriate forum for politics. We should stay on topic.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 24):
It was the UAE after all who resorted to suddenly have visas for Canadians, when it was purely Visa on arrival...

Ever heard of reciprocity? Emirati's till this day do not get visa on arrival in Canada, yet the Emirati authorities reversed the decision in August and now Canadians get visa's on arrival in the UAE.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 24):
Toronto serves as a major hub for connecting traffic who do not wish to fly via the US...Go figure!!

I am glad you identified Toronto's role as regional (US focus) rather than global. I agree - with this way of thinking Toronto will never become truly global.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 24):
I for one am proud to fly on Air Canada, and whenever I have the opportunity I definitely do!!

And that's the beauty of having a choice! Different strokes for different folks.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 25):

Ok obviously you get a hard on talking about DXB and the UAE. And you know what there has been exponential growth over the last couple of years and good for them. Oil money goes a long way.

YYZ though is a global city. Where everyone lives here and has been rated as one of the most diverse cities in the world on numerous occasions by the UN. The role in which Toronto is playing though in the aviation field shows how global it just is. AC is a huge carrier just as EK in DXB, but we have a large range of international carriers that help make us a GLOBAL city.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:48 pm

Lets not turn this into a UAE-Canada thread.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 24):
It's high time people from the Indian subcontinent actually flew back with their own airline carriers, with the exception of Biman and Sri Lankan which don't fly here but then they could always take Air Canada to London and connect from there.

 

I m pretty sure this line of thought doesn't exist outside of North Korea.

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 22):
Really, then why would Ethiopian who also increased frequencies, Egyptair and Saudia show an interest in flying to Toronto? And don't forget Aer Lingus from summer 2014. Also Turkish is getting increased frequencies, going to double the amount of flights in five years.

You're talking about airlines that typically get daily frequency everywhere they go in the developed world. Boasting about TK getting one daily frequency and one two weekly frequency after 5 years is...amusing. In most developed countries, that would amount to laughably bad progress.

Quoting ytz (Reply 17):
Just look at Seatguru. I'd say yes. And I have always found a notable difference switching from a TK 77W at IST to a 332 for a BOM flight. Now, I usually don't mind the 332 for a 6 hour flight. But for a 10 hour flight? Not so sure.

The ex-Meridiana 332s are disasters. The 333 is a different - and impressive - beast. I didn't mind it for the 6 hour jaunt to/from DEL. But the 10 hour leg ... it won't be ideal. On the other hand, TK's fares are great, so you won't come out feeling cheated a la AC/LH. At least the food and IFE are excellent. I'll probably stick to Y+ and Toronto for however long its around. I noticed on the TK thread that they're still holding out hope that CC will stay. I really wouldn't mind a VS Y+ type product.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 26):
YYZ though is a global city. Where everyone lives here and has been rated as one of the most diverse cities in the world on numerous occasions by the UN.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Toronto has people from all over the globe. That does not, however, a global city make. There's any number of indicators you could use to illustrate that, but since this thread is about aviation, the best indicator IMHO is the whole 'Canadian Experience' nonsense that dominates hiring in Toronto (and Canada). The uniformity with which it exists in Canada is impressive. The relative absence of similar national experience requirements in true Global cities like NYC, LON, HKG, SIN etc suggests that Toronto may have people from all over the globe, but the mindset that dominates it is very insular - in fact there's nothing global about it. (As an aside, next time you meet one of the HR hiring folk at a big company, ask them where they'd rank an MBA from INSEAD, LBS or IMD. I find that a lot of them know nothing about the first two and have most have even heard of the third.)

Normally, this would be an issue for another thread, but the reality is that it has implications for air traffic. Recent immigrant unemployment rates are twice as high as the regular unemployment rate, and underemployment has long been a chronic problem in Canada. This, in turn, affects the nature of traffic that Canada generates on certain routes. Canadian of non-South Asian origin are not going to engage in tourism in South Asia in anything more than token numbers, so the bulk of that traffic is going to be VFR - and low-yield VFR at that - since recent immigrants have stronger links and more reasons to return to their country of origin on a regular basis. That's why we need more carriers with low cost bases - they are better positioned to make a go of these routes and provide affordable fares - and better products at that price - than the likes of AC or LH.

The other issue worth pointing out is that despite its self-proclaimed global status, Toronto is not a major tourist destination. I recall the noise made after Toronto overtook Chicago in population size. The most striking thing about all of that was the admission that Chicago is a far bigger tourism destination than Toronto - 44 million to 10 million. In fact, it gets more overseas tourists than Toronto does from both domestic and international sources. That, too, illustrates the different between a global city and a tier 2 city. Don't get me wrong, Toronto is a nice enough city. Just not in the same league as real global cities. That, again, has ramifications for air travel. It could be poor branding; it could be poor connectivity. Either which way, it speaks of a tourism approach that is a shambles, and our restrictive aviation policy is a part of that.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 26):
The role in which Toronto is playing though in the aviation field shows how global it just is.

Don't want to put too fine a point on it, but Toronto Pearson is not among the Top 20 busiest international airports, or the Top 30 busiest airports. In terms of International Traffic, the 2011 statistics put it behind VIE and roughly in the same ball park as major global hubs like BRU, DUB, CPH and AYT, none of which can claim to be global cities in any sense of the word.
 
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yowza
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:21 pm

We've discussed the Canadian government's approach to handing out frequencies to DEATH on this board. There's no point going through it yet again. Whether the process is antiquated or not TK appear to be going from strength to strength under the framework that other carriers find so unbearable. Good for them!

YOWza
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 17):
I usually don't mind the 332 for a 6 hour flight. But for a 10 hour flight? Not so sure.

YUL will launch with the A333, not the A332. As mentioned, the A333 is newer and with a more recent product than the A332.

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
a failing airline (AC).
Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
If AC can't stand up against competition, let it die.

Failing? I beg to differ ! They just reported a better than expected profit for Q3 2013.

http://money.ca.msn.com/investing/ne...profit-beats-estimates-stocks-jump

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
I also wonder whether TK has put Concorde back into service, reference the 1-hour flight time YYZ-YQX. Block time on that 1,084 nm sector would be around 2.5 hrs.

That makes sense, considering that Newfoundland is 1.5 hours ahead of YYZ. 2.5-1.5 = 1.

Quoting Marco (Reply 25):
You simply confirmed my point - that Canada is essentially a VFR market with a few primary business routes (LHR, NYC, LAX, FRA, etc) and therefore likely not a priority for most airlines. Not being a priority does not mean that airlines won't fly there or upgrade aircraft types. However, if an opportunity cost is involved, I doubt airlines would lose sleep over YUL or YYZ.

While Canada is predominantly a VFR market, IST, DXB and such are predominantly hubs, and these routes capture a lot of Canadian business travelers on their way to various places in the world, notably Africa or the Middle East, which lack direct service to Canada.

TK being part of *A is a great benefit to these new/upgraded routes as any major Canadian city is now 2 flights away from IST hub, thanks to AC. I think they will do great.
With 6x YYZ and 3x YUL, I would expect there is at least one Canada-IST service every day, correct?
When I doubt... go running!
 
a380787
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:20 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 14):
Wait. EK is being a bully because they didn't fight a (likely) Canadian inserted clause that limited them to 3X per week?

Canada didn't limit them to 3x. The bilateral was 6x weekly, but they initially refused and did all the stupid things like adding a visa fee or banning the Canadian AF base. EY jumped on the opportunity, and now both of them have very suboptimal schedules.

Quoting Marco (Reply 25):
You simply confirmed my point - that Canada is essentially a VFR market with a few primary business routes (LHR, NYC, LAX, FRA, etc) and therefore likely not a priority for most airlines. Not being a priority does not mean that airlines won't fly there or upgrade aircraft types. However, if an opportunity cost is involved, I doubt airlines would lose sleep over YUL or YYZ.

Absolutely stupid comment. Canada has roughly same GDP per capita as Australia, but you're telling me Canada is filled worthless low-yield VFR and yet EK is sending a ton of A380s to Australia everyday ? It's purely EK's fault of failing the capture the high-yield market in Canada, not the other way around.

Sorry EK spokesperson, try again.
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 28):
We've discussed the Canadian government's approach to handing out frequencies to DEATH on this board. There's no point going through it yet again. Whether the process is antiquated or not TK appear to be going from strength to strength under the framework that other carriers find so unbearable. Good for them!

Amen. But as a TK fan, and more broadly as a fan of progress, I am sorely disappointed that TK still hasn't been given enough slots to go daily in YUL? I call BS. Amazing, that despite being a *A carrier, they get the shaft like that. Heaven only knows how long it will take for TK to go daily in YUL and open up YVR or YYC.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 29):
YUL will launch with the A333, not the A332. As mentioned, the A333 is newer and with a more recent product than the A332.

I'm sure the planes are a tad nicer. But seating will be the same no? So really, is comfort going to suddenly improve? And we are talking a 10-hr leg here.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
Canada didn't limit them to 3x. The bilateral was 6x weekly, but they initially refused and did all the stupid things like adding a visa fee or banning the Canadian AF base. EY jumped on the opportunity, and now both of them have very suboptimal schedules.

This again. Sorry, but this has been covered to death. And you have the facts wrong. 1) While giving the UAE 6 slots, it was the Canadian government that insisted that any airline be restricted to 3 slots. This has subsequently been spun as EK not taking up all 6 slots. Utter tosh. 2) There was no ban on the base. The lease ended. They chose not to renew. I know that, because I am in the CF and I worked in a position that planned for alternate bases. There was no ban and they didn't "kick" us out. I do think it was bad form to tie base access to commercial aviation market access. Real military allies don't do that. But that's what it was. The only punitive measure against Canada was the requirement for visas. And again, Canada has always required visas for Emiratis, including for their military personnel who come to train in Canada at a solid profit for our own military training system.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
Absolutely stupid comment. Canada has roughly same GDP per capita as Australia, but you're telling me Canada is filled worthless low-yield VFR and yet EK is sending a ton of A380s to Australia everyday ?

Australians fly twice as much as Canadians. Explain that.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 31):
It's purely EK's fault of failing the capture the high-yield market in Canada, not the other way around.

Really? Is that why BA sends aircraft without F to Canada? Is that why Air Transat is our largest TATL carrier? Canada is a lower yield market than many other OECD economies. That's reality.


Really, the slow growth of TK in Canada, almost reminds me of the era when flying was regulated. TK has to prove demand on a route to get more slots? Isn't that what things were like in the 1970s?

[Edited 2013-11-16 22:24:39 by SA7700]
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 32):
Oh please. Get off your high horse. Do you know any recent immigrants?

I'm one.

Quoting Marco (Reply 25):
UAE labour law, while not the best in the world, is generally considered to be very employee friendly.
Quoting ytz (Reply 32):
As someone who watched his parents struggle through menial jobs because the professional qualifications and experience was devalued, let me assure you that the idea that Canada provides dignity to immigrants is very, very flawed.
Quoting ytz (Reply 32):
Increasingly, our family and friends from India and the Gulf, now prefer Australia over Canada, because Australia is substantially better at recognizing foreign qualifications.

The point here was the way the labour force work is treated, the conditions under which they live and after it was brought to the world by means of documentaries that brought some changes to their unfortunate existences there. Employee friendly I doubt very much...maybe if you work in one of the high rise corporate offices yes, but if you are toiling under the sun it's another story.

True you may have a nasty boss here if your job is picking up boxes or you work in a corporate office, but you aren't reduced to a pile of nothingness like those poor souls out there, huddled into buses after a hard day's work and then taken to their unfortunate living conditions. That is what I was referring to. Where is the human dignity there...I think you are referring to the dignity you get if you are a doctor but your qualifications are not recongised here or given the respect of one. Two different things.

Besides, if Austraila seems to be better at recognizing foreign qualifications one always has the option to move there. After all Canada was kind enough to let us "immigrants" in, but in no way does one need to stay put here. Feel free to go to wherever it is you are happy

Quoting ytz (Reply 32):
Next, what right do you have to tell struggling immigrants how to travel?

I was not suggesting anything. It was merely a suggestion if "we" immigrants fly with our own national carriers, would it not help the national carriers in the first place, instead of filling up the seats of other airlines where in some cases AC provides the connection to them overseas. This was mainly the reason why Saudia started flights to Toronto to cater to the needs of it's locals in Canada, so that they would have a direct/nonstop flight home. I

Quoting ytz (Reply 32):
Why should people like my parents who work really hard jobs to feed their families be forced to fuel an AC TATL JV that has anti-trust immunity?

And so we instead fill up the planes of the ME3. Yes I myself am guilty of this, but I think I would need to reconsider other options next time I fly.
 
a380787
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 33):
Really? Is that why BA sends aircraft without F to Canada?

That's BA's problem for failing to capture F traffic. LH and CX both send F planes to Canada, among others. LH just launched MUC-YYZ with 3-class F. Explain that too.

Australians need to fly all the time only because all the cities are so far away from each other (unless you enjoy going from sydney to canberra all the time). A road trip from SYD to MEL is simply unrealistic (that's longer than BOS-DCA). You're totally confusing cause and effect.
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:14 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 32):
As someone who watched his parents struggle through menial jobs because the professional qualifications and experience was devalued, let me assure you that the idea that Canada provides dignity to immigrants is very, very flawed. If you believe that, you either aren't an immigrant or don't know any. Increasingly, our family and friends from India and the Gulf, now prefer Australia over Canada, because Australia is substantially better at recognizing foreign qualifications.
Quoting ytz (Reply 33):
I know that, because I am in the CF and I worked in a position that planned for alternate bases.

Wow you work in the CF? And you have such views as mentioned above. Classic!!
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 37):
Wow you work in the CF? And you have such views as mentioned above. Classic!!

Moreover, you'll find most of the CF members I worked with were quite happy taking EK or EY while transiting through to theatre.

Just because we are CF members doesn't mean we have to fall prey to BS politically correct views.

Like I said, I do think it was irresponsible of the UAE to tie basing access to a commercial dispute. But I don't think their commercial disputes is entirely unfounded.

It should be noted that the CF continues to make a good chunk of change from their military personnel training here (including aircrew and medical personnel) and we had quite an ace in our sleeve when they deployed personnel to the Canadian sector in Afghanistan. Nothing helps building credibly with the local Muslim populace like having troops from a Gulf country running part of your CIMIC ops.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 36):
That's BA's problem for failing to capture F traffic. LH and CX both send F planes to Canada, among others. LH just launched MUC-YYZ with 3-class F. Explain that too.

Really? When does it stop being symptomatic of our market failures that some of the most premium airlines in the world can't sustain premium cabin loads to our most economically prosperous region?

BA is renowned for being premium heavy. And they can't support F to YYZ for a very specific reason. A lot of YYZ-LHR is O/D. Unlike the other examples you cite which is transfer traffic (where a lot of your F pax are probably inbound foreigners). Compare F loads from YYZ to any other cities that Torontonians like to compare themselves to, like New York or Chicago. We fail miserably. And there are very good reasons for that.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 36):
Australians need to fly all the time only because all the cities are so far away from each other (unless you enjoy going from sydney to canberra all the time).

1) Canada's an even bigger country and we fly less. You are talking about SYD-MEL. What about YVR-YYC/YEG or YYC-YWG? You think those drives are easier? Regionally, other than the TOM triangle, most of this country's urban agglomerations are quite distant. Your opinions reminds me a lot of my Toronto-centric friends who have no clue how the rest of the country is constituted.

2) Australians fly a ton more internationally. Explain that. And they have a lot of further to fly international than we usually do.

And the Aus-Can comparison was made by IATA, I believe. Not me.
 
Airontario
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:15 pm

Yawn....can we get back to the discussion about Turkish Airways starting a route to YUL.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:38 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 17):
Now, I usually don't mind the 332 for a 6 hour flight. But for a 10 hour flight? Not so sure.

I just recently did it from IST to ORD and it was horrendous. I would have happily paid a few hundred extra for Y Comfort

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
BA is surviving and in fact posted excellent profits despite EK's aggressive strategy in the UK. If AC can't stand up against competition, let it die.

Are you seriously comparing the BA hub at LHR in the UK vs. AC's YYZ base in Canada?!

Quoting Marco (Reply 25):
You simply confirmed my point - that Canada is essentially a VFR market with a few primary business routes (LHR, NYC, LAX, FRA, etc) and therefore likely not a priority for most airlines.

So what functions do GRU, HKG, ICN, PEK, PVG, SYD, NRT, etc. all provide in terms of their nonstop connectivity to Canada? Or the fact that AC flies several ptp routes from LHR to non-AC hubs?

Quoting Marco (Reply 25):
UAE labour law, while not the best in the world, is generally considered to be very employee friendly.

Ha. Is today April Fool's Day?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
Toronto is a nice enough city. Just not in the same league as real global cities. That, again, has ramifications for air travel. It could be poor branding; it could be poor connectivity. Either which way, it speaks of a tourism approach that is a shambles, and our restrictive aviation policy is a part of that

There is some element of truth to that statement, but comparing it to Chicago muddles the argument just a bit when you're using tourism levels as a comparison.

First, those numbers include people coming for work conferences and meetings. It is far less expensive to hold meetings in a domestic market over an international one, even if it is just transborder like Canada. As such, you're pulling from Fortune 500 + other volumes in a much more densely populated country (USA) than Canada.

Second, those numbers include people who drive from all parts of the Midwest to visit Chicago, many of whom don't own passports. I would venture to say a much higher concentration of people who live in the GTA and surrounding areas in Ontario and Quebec are passport holders versus the level in the Chicagoland area and surrounding states (IL, MO, IN, WI, IA).

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
In terms of International Traffic, the 2011 statistics put it behind VIE and roughly in the same ball park as major global hubs like BRU, DUB, CPH and AYT, none of which can claim to be global cities in any sense of the word

Right, because airports like BRU, DUB, CPH and AYT (to a lesser extent) have a much smaller volume of domestic traffic as smaller countries. Does BRU even have any domestic flights within Belgium?! Naturally, their numbers of foreign traffic are going to be artificially inflated for this purpose.

For example, in the world airport rankings, PEK stands out as the #2 busiest in terms of seats, whereas DXB is #5, but obviously, DXB is 100% international capacity whereas PEK is 77.4%. As such, DXB offers more international seats than PEK by a small margin. That skews the numbers quite a bit.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
ASA
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting Airontario (Reply 39):
Yawn....can we get back to the discussion about Turkish Airways starting a route to YUL.

haha ... yeah, I'll reset my starting point in this thread from my own message onwards 

please stay on the topic guys ... TK ... and YUL / YYZ / Y**
 
a380787
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 38):

2) Australians fly a ton more internationally. Explain that. And they have a lot of further to fly international than we usually do.

Australia doesn't border any country, so flying is a must, while YVR-SEA and YYZ-BUF are well connected by land. There's also the landside leakage of passengers while Australia has none of that.

Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
BA is renowned for being premium heavy. And they can't support F to YYZ for a very specific reason. A lot of YYZ-LHR is O/D. Unlike the other examples you cite which is transfer traffic (where a lot of your F pax are probably inbound foreigners). Compare F loads from YYZ to any other cities that Torontonians like to compare themselves to, like New York or Chicago. We fail miserably. And there are very good reasons for that.

LH can fly 3-class F on YYZ-FRA and YYZ-MUC. Blame it on "alliance" all you want but if Canada is truly low yield, LH would send 2-class planes. It's purely BA's issues of failing to capture the F traffic that goes to LH even though FRA/MUC are way less premium heavy than LHR.

KE, EK, and CX also fly 3-class F into Canada.
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 32):

As someone who watched his parents struggle through menial jobs because the professional qualifications and experience was devalued, let me assure you that the idea that Canada provides dignity to immigrants is very, very flawed. If you believe that, you either aren't an immigrant or don't know any. Increasingly, our family and friends from India and the Gulf, now prefer Australia over Canada, because Australia is substantially better at recognizing foreign qualifications.
Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 37):
Wow you work in the CF? And you have such views as mentioned above. Classic!!
Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
Moreover, you'll find most of the CF members I worked with were quite happy taking EK or EY while transiting through to theatre.
Quoting ytz (Reply 38):
Just because we are CF members doesn't mean we have to fall prey to BS politically correct views.



I was referring to your rant on Canada not providing dignity to immigrants and that your family and friends from India and the Gulf suggesting Australia is a far better place to move to since they overseas qualifications recognised more easily, and nothing with you flying EK/EY while being in the CF.

Working in the CF one would expect a little more loyalty towards Canada, instead of bashing the country that gave you a chance to begin a life here, non? just saying..




Quoting Airontario (Reply 39):
Yawn....can we get back to the discussion about Turkish Airways starting a route to YUL.

And yes let's get back to the discussion...

Had to edit quotes that went all over the place

[Edited 2013-11-14 11:50:50]
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 43):
I was referring to your rant on Canada not providing dignity to immigrants and that your family and friends from India and the Gulf suggesting Australia is a far better place to move to since they overseas qualifications recognised more easily, and nothing with you flying EK/EY while being in the CF.

Working in the CF one would expect a little more loyalty towards Canada, instead of bashing the country that gave you a chance to begin a life here, non? just saying..

Hey. I think my loyalty is proven everyday when I put on my uniform and go to work. What have you done for Canada lately?

I am incredibly proud to be Canadian and to serve my country. That does not in any way mean that I should be a doormat and not call out injustices as I see them. I didn't give up my ability to critically think when I signed on the dotted line. Quite frankly, I find your post, questioning my loyalty a little offensive. If I held the same opinion, but were not an immigrant or person of colour, would you still consider such a view disloyal? I wonder.

Read my post carefully. Where have I ever expressed ingratitude for the life that Canada has afforded my family and I? But all that said, my family (like many immigrants today and before them) had a substantially harder time than that promised by the glossy brochures because of the lack of acceptance of foreign qualifications and foreign credentials.

If you are a doctor or engineer or lawyer, Canada is a place where you're likely to end up driving a taxi or running a convenience store or clean toilets than working in your profession. Statistically, South Asians in the USA are one of the highest earning diasporic communities in the world, with family incomes substantially above average. They are second only to Jewish Americans, I believe. Here in Canada, their incomes are below average. There are solid reasons for that. And the integration process most certainly has its part to play. And that's a tragedy not just for those immigrants but for Canada as a whole, when we fail to capably make use of our human capital. Instead of fostering the next Sergei Brin, we have him scrubbing toilets at Tim's.

And yes, now word is getting out. My parents didn't have to do anything to bad mouth Canada. They simply told the relatives back home about the challenges of getting their credentials and experience accepted. Those relatives compared those tales from friends and family who immigrated to the USA and Australia and decided Canada was not the best option for them. Would you blame them?

Tying this back to aviation...if our policies remain backwards, I can't see how we will attract the high quality immigrants who can afford to travel to begin with, let alone support the odd premium jaunt so necessary to attract airline service. Compare traffic to India from Canada and the USA. Setting aside differences in population size, Canada is nowhere close proportionally to frequency of travel or the use of premium/full-fare travel. I chalk this up to keeping our immigrants poor and not fostering business links with one of the largest emerging economies in the world.
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 42):
if Canada is truly low yield, LH would send 2-class planes.

I would bet money that if LH had more long haul two class birds, they'd be sending some of those our way. As it is, LH 3-class setup on the vast majority of their long-haul fleets, save a few 343s.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 42):
It's purely BA's issues of failing to capture the F traffic

Seriously? London is Canada's most important destination. So important that AC runs so many p2p routes to LHR from non-AC hubs.

I consider something seriously wrong, when Canada's most prosperous economic region and our centre of commerce cannot sustain F class on BA to LHR (the world's other financial centre).

And it's not just BA or YYZ? How much F traffic is there from Canada in total to London? Heck, were demand so strong, surely AC itself would offer F on select routes, like LHR. Instead, they give us the 77H on YVR-LHR. Even less of a premium feel.

The airlines you keep citing that fly F into Canada, largely do it as a matter of practicality. These are all 12+ hour routes and they are all full-service airlines that restrict 2-class to regional travel. This is exactly why BA is a great discretionary indicator. They do have 2-class birds. And they do choose to deploy them on mium heavy too. The only airlines that are doing well in Canada, are the non-premiums, like TS, FI, etc.

And sadly, when airlines like TK come along and do want to expand? The government runs them around for half a decade.
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 40):
I just recently did it from IST to ORD and it was horrendous. I would have happily paid a few hundred extra for Y Comfort

The entire reason, TK is my favourite long haul to India is because of Comfort Class. CC on the YYZ-IST leg makes up for the more cramped 332 leg to BOM.

Also, IST is an awesome place for a stopover. Visa on arrival for 50 bones.
 
upwardfacing
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:31 pm

BA does offer F on one of their daily LHR-YYZ flights.

They offer F to YVR as well, but not to YUL or YYC.

Likely more of a reflection of UK (and beyond) point-of-sale traffic rather than on the Canada side of things.
 
ytz
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 47):
Likely more of a reflection of UK (and beyond) point-of-sale traffic rather than on the Canada side of things.

It takes two to tango though. Either our market economics are such that we aren't attracting premium tourists and business travellers. Or we aren't generating enough of our own. Compare YYZ to other economically significant OECD cities that Torontonians love to compare themselves to, like Chicago, New York, San Fran, Los Angeles, Paris, etc. Adjust for populations and you'll still find they all have subtantially more premium traffic. There's a reason for it. That's all I'm saying.
 
MANYUL
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 45):
I consider something seriously wrong, when Canada's most prosperous economic region and our centre of commerce cannot sustain F class on BA to LHR (the world's other financial centre).

BA fly to 4 destinations in Canada from the UK. YVR and YYZ both have F class service...
 
Viscount724
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 20):
To be honest, Canada doesn't rank that high on any airline's list.

Are you aware that YVR has more frequency to China than any other city in North America?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Turkish Airlines Adds YUL, Increases YYZ Service

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 45):
And sadly, when airlines like TK come along and do want to expand? The government runs them around for half a decade.

TK started YYZ-IST in July 2009 with 3 x week. Increased to 5 x week in October 2012. Next summer there will be 16 nonstops a week from Canada to IST (9 TK and 7 AC). How many other international markets from Canada have gone from zero to 16 a week in 5 years?