ORDTLV2414
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The New AA And Israel?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:35 pm

What do you guys think will happen to TLV with the new AA? As some of you may know AA is currently unable to fly to TLV because of unpaid wages by TWA. Do you think they will pay it? If they do will the keep PHL-TLV, will they move it? start ORD,MIA or JFK? What will happen to AA's codeshare with LY?
 
arielwar
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:42 pm

I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.
 
catiii
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.

It's worth it if annual revenues exceed $20M. Others on this board probably know the numbers.
 
Independence76
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.

Shouldn't be a problem, considering a certain someone was asking the company for it without hesitation.   
 
HPRamper
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:38 am

Parker has already said they are keeping it. US makes a lot of money on PHL-TLV, I can only think JFK-TLV and MIA-TLV would be even higher yielding.
 
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RWA380
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
Parker has already said they are keeping it. US makes a lot of money on PHL-TLV, I can only think JFK-TLV and MIA-TLV would be even higher yielding.

So I guess that answers the question about if AA will finally pay those TWA employees the money that has been owed to them for some time. Hope it happens that way, or if this will be an AA flight operated by PMUS.  
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
MAH4546
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
Parker has already said they are keeping it. US makes a lot of money on PHL-TLV, I can only think JFK-TLV and MIA-TLV would be even higher yielding.

Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

It astonishes me how gullible people are.

[Edited 2013-11-14 18:38:13]
a.
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:56 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):
Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

Are you predicting US Airways will give up the Tel Aviv route, once the merger with American is consummated?
 
phxa340
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):
It astonishes me how gullible people are.

Or how people ignore past mergers and somehow think this one will be any different  
 
MAH4546
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 7):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.
Are you predicting US Airways will give up the Tel Aviv route, once the merger with American is consummated?

All I am saying is that what Parker says is meaningless, because once the merger is closed, he can turn off the lie machine - and start screwing over employees and customers in the process.

I do think AA will continue flying to TLV. It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia, however, when, outside of peak summer, 3 out of every 4 people travelling to Israel come from five airports: EWR, JFK, MIA, FLL, LAX. So why should AA bother serving it from Philadelphia?
a.
 
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mayor
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:33 am

Perhaps AA will return the DL 767 model (yeah, right)   that we had on display in the Sheraton Hotel in TLV when we started service to TLV in '91. We suspected the TW crews took it when the hotel was putting on such a big show for our service starting. TW's crews stayed at that hotel, also. The DL folks that were TDY to TLV for the PanAm transition were staying at that hotel, also. The model was there, for a few days and one morning, it disappeared.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
kiffy
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:43 am

Don't forget about the huge pharmaceutical companies that benefit from the TLV-PHL flight...
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:52 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
JFK-TLV

This market is very very saturated
 
MAH4546
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:56 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):JFK-TLV
This market is very very saturated

Soon enough it will overtake New York-Paris as the second most travelled city pair between the mainland United States and any overseas point. There's room for a fourth.

AA already plays in oversaturated markets - NYCMAD, NYCROM and NYCMIL all have at least four airlines and none is even half the size of NYCTLV. A market as large as NYCTLV with only three airlines is the complete opposite of saturated. And the fares don't suck, either.
a.
 
usairways85
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 9):
It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia,
Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
This market is very very saturated

Agreed. I do not deny that the JFK-TLV market is exponentially larger and even if JFK only maintains a small domestic presence it can likely handle a good portion of the connections but you have a monopoly on PHL-TLV. You'll be something like the 6th flt and 4th carrier on NYC-TLV. Who knows, maybe that will not make a difference because of the enormity of the NYC-TLV market.

I can see PHL-TLV going to JFK-TLV, I just don't agree that PHL-TLV makes absolutely no sense as though the airline wanted to buy a 380 to fly PHL-NRT.
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting Independence76 (Reply 3):
Shouldn't be a problem, considering a certain someone was asking the company for it without hesitation.

I see what you did there.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 9):
I do think AA will continue flying to TLV. It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia, however, when, outside of peak summer, 3 out of every 4 people travelling to Israel come from five airports: EWR, JFK, MIA, FLL, LAX. So why should AA bother serving it from Philadelphia?

Well if AA can fill planes from MIA and JFK to TLV, why not keep PHL and use that as the place to try and feed all of the connecting traffic from smaller US-Israel markets? I mean, haven't some people been speculating that this is basically what PHL can be used for post merger? A connection point for smaller markets to Europe so that they can focus more on O&D traffic out of JFK.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
gizmonc
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:19 am

When CO started EWR TLV they did it with a 777 they were not running it long and it went to 2 flights daily. Just checked united.com and yes they are still running it with TWO 777-200's. In its hey day TWA had like 12-14 flgihts per weeks out of JFK. At the same time Tower Air was running 747-200's. So there is a market. I picked ramdom dates in NOV laving the 20 and return 27 and the airfare was $1669.00. I am sure there are some discount places AKA bucket stores that sell those tickets little cheaper. I vote for AA to pay what is owed to the TWA folks......I can say this I went to TLV twice on TWA NR and twice working. I could not believe the number of employees they had at the ticket counter and the gate.
We used to send a 747-200 STL LGW and folks checked in at the ticket counter it was staffed with adaquate agents.
At the Gate there was usually 1 Agent boarding the flight and 2 agents over at the Customer service counter. So TLV was way over staffed. Not sure of the total number of agents but it was HIGH. Just googled and found a link back to airlines.net

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/print.main?id=4575080

IN TLV TWA had 75 employees. the TLV employees claimed that route generated 8.5-10 profit yearly. With fares much higher than they were at the end of TWA JFK TLV in 2001. I could see that AA could made a deal with the former TWA employees. If the route is that profitable it will STAY and probably more flights from other cities. MIA TLV would be packed with the folks from HOLLYWOOD AREA.
 
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mayor
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:41 am

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 16):
IN TLV TWA had 75 employees. the TLV employees claimed that route generated 8.5-10 profit yearly. With fares much higher than they were at the end of TWA JFK TLV in 2001. I could see that AA could made a deal with the former TWA employees. If the route is that profitable it will STAY and probably more flights from other cities. MIA TLV would be packed with the folks from HOLLYWOOD AREA.

The problem that DL ran into in TLV, in '91, was that a good portion of the people, flying back and forth, were redeeming their PanAM FF miles as TLV seemed to be the capital of PA's FF world. They probably made money from the cargo when it was still a TLV-Paris-JFK flight as a good portion of the cargo was perishables (melons & goose liver) going to France, but once they made it non-stop from TLV to JFK, that revenue dropped off, too.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
ckfred
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 9):
I do think AA will continue flying to TLV. It makes no sense to serve it from Philadelphia, however, when, outside of peak summer, 3 out of every 4 people travelling to Israel come from five airports: EWR, JFK, MIA, FLL, LAX. So why should AA bother serving it from Philadelphia?

But, would AA fly ORD-TLV. I can think of a lot of people in the Chicago area of all faiths and backgrounds who have the Holy Land on their "to do" lists.
 
crAAzy
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:34 am

Quoting arielwar (Reply 1):
I think the fine is like $20 million, idk if it's worth it.

Why spend $20 million to settle the AA TLV problem when it can be spent to hire a new consulting firm for a new logo and paint scheme?
 
ckfred
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:48 am

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 19):
Why spend $20 million to settle the AA TLV problem when it can be spent to hire a new consulting firm for a new logo and paint scheme?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Many, many companies change their corporate identity during or after a trip through bankruptcy.

The CO scheme that is now the UA scheme came about after a bankruptcy stay. DL ditched the wavy gravy after coming out of bankruptcy. UA's last livery (the white and blue one) was introduced during its trip through bankruptcy. The last TWA livery was introduced after one of its several trips into bankruptcy.

And, many people had been saying that the last livery, which was introduced in the late 60s, was due for a change, even if AA never went into Chapter 11.

Even a brand as venerable as Kraft has updated its logo, ditching KRAFT in all caps for Kraft with only the K capitalized and an updated font.
 
ORDTLV2414
Topic Author
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:59 am

but guys what about the LY codeshare?
 
xdlx
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:50 am

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 19):

It will cost a lot more than $20m to repaint.
 
ripcordd
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:25 pm

You do know coming out of BK the will be a brand new company on paper
 
klwright69
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:42 pm

Not taking over TW's JFK-TLV was one of the dumbest moves ever by AA. Their official reason was for "economic reasons." They never said publicly that it was about not paying TW's employees.

It is absurd AA never started TLV after all these years, leaving the market for US, DL, and UA. CO swooped in at an especially good time. It was only TW and Tower Air in the market back then when CO got in. The only other market that saw two CO 777's was IAH-LHR.

In other threads on this topic, many people have said that AA will not owe these people anything, that it was TW back then and they're gone. No one has made this statement yet. I think they will have to settle, and the employees will demand interest on benefits owed.

It should be noted that the incumbent US carriers have NOT added nonstops to TLV that are not in the northeast (NYC and PHL)
 
bobnwa
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):
Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

It astonishes me how gullible people are.

It astonishes me how some people continue to praise the old AA managment when they were obviously incompetant.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 12):
This market is very very saturated

No it's not. There are a lot of Jewish people are in the NYC area. And real jews; the ones that go to Israel frequently.

This is like a trip to Boca (NYC-FLL/PBI) for many New Yorkers.

If they decide to fly the route, they will do fine.

My question...why would AA not pay the judgement, but the New AA will? What changed?
 
HPRamper
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
My question...why would AA not pay the judgement, but the New AA will? What changed?

PMAA had no presence, no station there, and was in poor financial straits to make that kind of investment. Now, US has already taken care of the legwork, now it's just a matter of paying the fine and adding flights to an existing station.
 
gizmonc
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:07 pm

I did a simple google on the subject cities with Jewish population:

Jewish population by metropolitan area
Rank Metro Area Country Number % of World Total
1 Tel Aviv Israel 3,000,000[1] 23
2 New York United States 2,000,000 15.8
3 Haifa Israel 655,000 4.9
4 Los Angeles United States 621,000[2] 4.7
5 Jerusalem Israel 570,000[2] 4.3
6 South Florida United States 514,000[2] 3.9
7 Paris France 310,000[2] 2.3
8 Philadelphia United States 276,000[2] 2.1
9 Chicago United States 261,000[2] 2.0

Topping the list is the NYC area...... 2 MILLION
next is LAX area.......621 thousand
then here comes SOUTH FLORIA..514 thousand
US AIRWAYS PHL...........................276 thousand
CHICAGO ........................................261 thousand

With those numbers I would think AA/US would move PHL TLV to JFK TLV
possibly add something out of LAX
But South Florida coming is a 1/2 million could easily support MIA TLV.
I remember when TWA flew JFK TLV many passengers compainted of going
North to NYC when they lived south of ATL.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:21 pm

First off, if AA is going to pony up the cash to keep flying to TLV, I dont think they will just serve TLV from one gateway.

I think it is totally realistic to add JFK-TLV in addition to keeping PHL-TLV and potentially adding MIA-TLV (4x weekly). Why give up PHL-TLV? Its done very well and JFK is not going to have the hub pull that PHL will have. Let JFK feed the O&D and PHL feed the connections.
It is what it is...
 
MIflyer12
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 13):
Soon enough it will overtake New York-Paris as the second most travelled city pair between the mainland United States and any overseas point. There's room for a fourth.

That assertion needs to be reconciled with TLV's very low ranking in airports as direct gateways to the U.S. (About 35th, and less than 1/4 the passenger count of #5 CDG, in 12 months to 9/2012.) There may be lots of passengers from Israel to all cities of the U.S., but many are connecting (in non-U.S. airports). AA may succeed with JFK-TLV but it doesn't wish away all that connecting competition.

http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.dev/fil...20Report%20for%20Sept%202012_0.pdf
 
usairways85
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 29):

I think it is totally realistic to add JFK-TLV in addition to keeping PHL-TLV and potentially adding MIA-TLV (4x weekly). Why give up PHL-TLV? Its done very well and JFK is not going to have the hub pull that PHL will have. Let JFK feed the O&D and PHL feed the connections.

The argument being made is that the US-TLV connections primarily come from cities that AA does serve from JFK (South Florida & LAX) thus JFK can handle the NYC O&D as well as the majority of the US-TLV connections.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 31):
The argument being made is that the US-TLV connections primarily come from cities that AA does serve from JFK (South Florida & LAX) thus JFK can handle the NYC O&D as well as the majority of the US-TLV connections.

And Im not sure I completely buy it. PHL-TLV by itself is around 60 PDEW. Its not like when DL moved ATL-TLV to JFK-TLV where it made sense. PHL-TLV is a larger market and has a better geographic locale. If nothing else, PHL plus all the connections it offers can easily fare well on this market with a 763 in addition to JFK-TLV.
It is what it is...
 
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qf2220
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 2):
It's worth it if annual revenues exceed $20M.

It will be worth it if the $20m is less than the discounted valuation of future profits on the route, adjusted for any risk to profitability that the route may or may not cause. Sorry catiii, but revenue is not what you should be comparing this to.
 
MAH4546
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 25):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 6):Parker has said a lot of things that aren't going to be true.

It astonishes me how gullible people are.
It astonishes me how some people continue to praise the old AA managment when they were obviously incompetant.

I've never praised AA's incompetent management. I was over the moon when Arpey finally left - worst airline CEO in the last decade. It astonishes me how people just put words in other's mouths.

I do like Horton, though.
a.
 
phllax
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:01 pm

Couple of things to add here,

At one point when LY was only doing LAX-TLV 3x/week, BOTH Continental flights originated/terminated at LAX. Then LY upped to 5x weekly and US has their flight originating/terminating in LAX so CO took it down to one flight (90) and now neither UA flight originates in LA. I have been on the PHL-LAX segment of the US flight and there are generally 20-30 people on the LAX-PHL segment per day.

The NYC market will be tough, because you have people that are very loyal and will only fly LY to Israel, and you have people that REFUSE to fly LY to Israel because on the onboard schnenagans by the orthodox sects. This is only true for the JFK/EWR flights. (I've flown JFK-TLV and TLV-LAX on LY and the difference is night and day pax wise). The hard product between DL/UA/LY is almost the same, except you get a lot more food on LY.

Also, as jfklganyc said, there are a lot of people who regularly go back and forth between NYC/TLV just like they're
going to PBI.
 
klwright69
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:05 pm

Yes, my best friend who is jewish would never fly anyone other than LY to Israel. I am sure there are many others like him out there!

I am wondering, no one from Israel ever really posts anything truly authoritative on this topic. Maybe it's been collectively forgotten. Has it ever been mentioned in the media there?

It seems like we are just speculating at this point. Just saying...
 
chepos
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 36):
Yes, my best friend who is jewish would never fly anyone other than LY to Israel. I am sure there are many others like him out there!

Having flown LY it's beyond me why anyone would go out of their way to fly them. Surly crews, the check in process with the whole security ordeal was a HASSLE, the hard product on-board was nothing to write home about. Traveling to Israel I would choose a US carrier any day over EL AL.

[Edited 2013-11-15 13:41:20]
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
gizmonc
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RE: The New AA And Israel?

Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:41 pm

I have NR on EL AL, flew TLV FRA on 757. Service was okay but as previous posters noted the crew sure was surly. Food was not that good. Security leaving TLV is a whole new experience. So many questions, checking computer , security lady went as far as to want to open my email. I told here.. got a server in your back pocket that I can use. It was evident she was over her head on that question. I wonder if WIFI is free. I got to visit Jerusalem for a quick day. but the beaches at the hotel were very nice. I could go back but other places I would prefer to visit. HKG is HIGH on the list just want to see the city.

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