LAXintl
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DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:46 pm

As result of American Airlines vacating its its JFK-Haneda route and slots, and the subsequent interest by Hawaiian Air ( Hawaiian Applies For Kona-Haneda (by LAXintl Oct 22 2013 in Civil Aviation) ) and United Airlines ( United Applies For SFO-Haneda (by LAXintl Oct 17 2013 in Civil Aviation) ) for replacement service, the DOT has decided to institute a formal route award proceeding.

DOT has established the following timeline:

Petitions: November 19, 2013
Answers to Petitions: November 22, 2013
Applications/Supplements/Amendments: November 26, 2013
Answers: December 4, 2013
Replies: December 9, 2013

OST-2010-0018

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LAXdude1023
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:31 pm

I cant imagine anyone else even wants them.
It is what it is...
 
flyby519
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:54 am

I'm surprised DL hasn't spoke up about a new route
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Polot
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:36 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 2):
I'm surprised DL hasn't spoke up about a new route

I think DL knows there is next to zero chance they will be given these slots, and are picking their battles elsewhere.
 
LAXintl
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:23 am

Due to Thanksgiving holiday, DOT adjusted the filing schedule back by 1-week.

Applications/Supplements/Amendments: November 26, 2013
Answers: December 9, 2013
Replies: December 16, 2013

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COSPN
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:29 am

UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

How much value does that add to UA vs basing that slot pairing at SFO? UA has the ability to funnel a lot more traffic from SFO than GUM.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:59 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 6):

That depends on what traffic UA is going for...
Tokyo HND originating vacation traffic to Guam could be more profitable than funneling SFO connecting traffic to HND.
 
LAXintl
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:08 am

Updated applications were filed today.


Hawaiian Air made its case that the proposed Kona - Haneda service would maximize consumer benefit by linking Hawaii's second busiest Japan O&D pair for the first time with Tokyo close in airport. Carrier also states as the only US carrier that has consistently maintained its service to Haneda since first route award in 2010, its well positioned to further grow its Haneda portfolio at minimal risk while providing unique economic benefit to Hawaii communities.

Proposed schedule:
HA432 KOA-HND 1750-2200 332
HA431 HND-KOA 2355-1245 332


United Airlines reaffirmed its comments that its proposal by far provides the biggest consumer benefits by offering US carrier service from its SFO gateway to Haneda.
UA states, not only is SF-Tokyo one of the nations top international pairs, but the carrier is well positioned to capture feed from 33 California and Western US markets providing millions of US consumers easy access to HND.

Proposed schedule:
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772

UA also states that with arrival of additional 787s in the fleet, the carrier will have the flexibility to adjust capacity seasonally if required.

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Jamake1
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:05 am

A SFO-HND slot award for UA is long overdue...
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LAXintl
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:29 am

As much business sense that it might make to transfer over one of the many GUM-NRT runs to HND, unfortunately that is not something the DOT will view as being very appealing.
Though such a flight would virtually provide zero commercial risk, and likely make the Guam flight even more desirable by folks in central Tokyo who might balk at venturing out to NRT if they dont need to.

I thought it was interesting, UA brought up the 787 for the first time today. The 787 option gives them a means to reduce capacity if things are soft especially during the winter months. Though they still use the 777 being the core aircraft on the application as they know the DOT likes to look at capacity and using solely the 787 could harm UA's bid going against the larger capacity A332 then.
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Cubsrule
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:34 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
I thought it was interesting, UA brought up the 787 for the first time today. The 787 option gives them a means to reduce capacity if things are soft especially during the winter months. Though they still use the 777 being the core aircraft on the application as they know the DOT likes to look at capacity and using solely the 787 could harm UA's bid going against the larger capacity A332 then.

The problem with capacity is that it's meaningless in the absence of demand. If there is a 777 worth of demand 8 months of the year and a 787 worth of demand the other 4 months, running a 777 year round is no better (and is arguably worse). Demand is only price elastic to a point. As I think everyone flying to HND has found, there's a point after which it's simply impossible to put butts in the seats.
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dfambro
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:40 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Proposed schedule:
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 9):
A SFO-HND slot award for UA is long overdue...

Please please please be true!
I am so tired of having to leave US east coast on Saturday (or Sunday) morning so I can make a Monday (or Tuesday) meeting in Tokyo, which I have to do because all the UA flights seem to arrive at NRT at 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon. I've always wanted to land at ~10:00pm and to do so at Haneda would be SO much better than NRT.

The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day. I'll still have to depart NRT early evening for that.
 
PHX787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:07 am

UA has the highest chance, since they've never been in the HND market.

HA has the flight to HNL already and I highly doubt they'll get another one.
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usxguy
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:09 am

however, landing after 9PM in Haneda is bad for most travelers -- I believe the trains don't run at that hour. My flight from Dubai landed around midnight and I had to pay about $105 USD for a taxi to the Hilton.
xx
 
PHX787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
however, landing after 9PM in Haneda is bad for most travelers -- I believe the trains don't run at that hour. My flight from Dubai landed around midnight and I had to pay about $105 USD for a taxi to the Hilton.

They extended the last run of the monorail till past midnight....I say landing past 10:30 or 11:00 is a bad idea.

The last run for the Yamanote loop line is around 1:15AM, but at that time, almost all of the trains are terminating at Shinagawa or Osaki stations, so unless their hotel is in Shinagawa, they're gonna have a hard time.
Honestly, the easiest last run on the Yamanote is around 12:30Am. but it may be packed. Most subways are done by 12:30AM.
There's talk to create an express train from HND to Tokyo Station but I don't see that happening until maybe right before the Olympics.
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SVA402
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

If that's our thinking, NWA's original 5th freedom routes were all out of HND and were forced to relocate to NRT. I say they should get all their slots back in HND....
 
LAXintl
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Demand is only price elastic to a point. As I think everyone flying to HND has found, there's a point after which it's simply impossible to put butts in the seats.

In fairness, a California-Haneda link should do much better than things like JFK or DTW. I see loads for the ANA LAX-HND flight regularly, and it has higher LF than the LAX-NRT flight.

Not only is the local demand from SFO significantly higher, the timings work much more decently versus the eastern hub attempts.

As far using 787, Japan does definitely have seasonal swings, to being able to utilize something with 60'ish less seats during certain periods should help UA keep the cost better in line.
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COSPN
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:55 pm

Quoting SVA402 (Reply 16):
If that's our thinking, NWA's original 5th freedom routes were all out of HND and were forced to relocate to NRT. I say they should get all their slots back in HND....

I agree give back what you took away before awarding to others...GUM really needs the HND slots DL can use them also for GUM-HND and SPN-HND 97% is local traffic not conecting..
 
PHX787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Not only is the local demand from SFO significantly higher, the timings work much more decently versus the eastern hub attempts.

Thats partially why I see UA getting the flight.
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Cubsrule
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:12 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
In fairness, a California-Haneda link should do much better than things like JFK or DTW. I see loads for the ANA LAX-HND flight regularly, and it has higher LF than the LAX-NRT flight.

I agree. Judging from the onboard loads, the non-west coast flights hardly had a 777 worth of demand 1 day a year, let alone 8 months.
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Carpethead
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:21 am

Any updates, and did any other airline petition for routes?

Quoting COSPN (Reply 18):
GUM really needs the HND slots

Hardly, deserving. GUM is a leisure destination with very little business traffic and tourists inconvenienced by a thirty extra minutes of trekking out to NRT is no big deal.
With thay being said, I really should add more flights during the overnight hours when NRT is shutdown due to curfew.
 
COSPN
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:04 am

GUM is the 2nd US destination outside HNL for Japnese, HND-GUM flights would be full. Problems is after midnite flights is lack of Public Transportaion at HND at those hours..
 
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shengzhurou
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:54 am

would UA drop the 2nd NRT flight UA852/853 so they can feed more pax to the HND flight if they get the slot? this flight is been operating by a 747 lately and it's hardly full.
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briboy
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:32 pm

Quoting dfambro (Reply 12):
The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day. I'll still have to depart NRT early evening for that.

You could catch AC's new HND»YYZ service—it will leave HND at 17:40 arriving YYZ at 16:40. AC covers the US East Coast pretty well from YYZ, so no problem finding a reasonably quick connection. If you have Global Entry you can quickly clear US C&I in YYZ.
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copter808
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:04 pm

Quoting dfambro (Reply 12):

The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day.

But you would be able to get back by early morning before the work day begins.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting briboy (Reply 24):
You could catch AC's new HND»YYZ service—it will leave HND at 17:40 arriving YYZ at 16:40. AC covers the US East Coast pretty well from YYZ, so no problem finding a reasonably quick connection. If you have Global Entry you can quickly clear US C&I in YYZ.

That's actually not a bad schedule, and it's a little later than many of the options from Tokyo to the midwest and east coast; it should be easy to catch any flight leaving YYZ at 1800 or later, which is just about all of the US terminators.
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dfambro
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting briboy (Reply 24):
You could catch AC's new HND»YYZ service—it will leave HND at 17:40 arriving YYZ at 16:40. AC covers the US East Coast pretty well from YYZ, so no problem finding a reasonably quick connection. If you have Global Entry you can quickly clear US C&I in YYZ.

Thanks, that's a good suggestion which I had not considered!
 
Carpethead
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:05 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 22):
GUM is the 2nd US destination outside HNL for Japnese,

I won't argue over volume on that route, but is it really necessary for a HND slot. For example, there is not a whole lot of leisure destinations being served from a similar slot-controlled airport like LHR.

Quoting shengzhurou (Reply 23):
would UA drop the 2nd NRT flight UA852/853

The second NRT-SFO flight has becomes seasonal of late, not operating during the winter season. I would expect the second NRT-SFO flight to cease if UA wins HND-SFO. Now whether the existing NRT-SFO flight stays a 744 is debatable as NH offers a similar schedule.
 
COSPN
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:51 pm

But GUM can fill it year round with 777-200 348 pax, besides just want the HND slot that was taken when the flight was forced to NRT
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:43 pm

When will the replies be issued?
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psa1011
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 30):
When will the replies be issued?

I think per the above answers are to be in by today, with replies by 12/16, although I'm not clear on who is replying/answering when.
 
a380787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:27 pm

Regardless of whether UA gets the SFO slot they want, the biggest HND news is actually the daylight slot for AC's YYZ-HND, offering an extremely well-timed flight for east coast connections.

Instead of having to trek across the country to SEA, SFO, or LAX, east coast pax (including those business friendly airports like LGA and DCA) can have 1-stop access to HND, during convenient times (a minor issue of having to clear immigration at YYZ)
 
jfk777
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:46 pm

Air Canada just launched Toronto - Haneda with daylight hours, wll USA airlines ever be allowed daylight hours to HND ?ANA just announced HND to LHR and CDG at regular NRT hours so why do the US airlines keep getting shafted at HND ?
 
a380787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 33):
Air Canada just launched Toronto - Haneda with daylight hours, wll USA airlines ever be allowed daylight hours to HND ?ANA just announced HND to LHR and CDG at regular NRT hours so why do the US airlines keep getting shafted at HND ?

Japan recently went through a round of daylight HND slots, and US got none of it. Supposedly no more new HND daylight slot rounds until after Tokyo 2020

The only daytime flights of NorthAmerica to HND would be via YVR (NH) or YYZ (AC) - really convenient for Star travelers
 
roseflyer
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:33 pm

I think there is no doubt that HND-KOA would work. There seems to be limitless demand to Hawaii from Tokyo and the slot timings work quite well for the Hawaii market.

SFO is much more of a risk. UA might end up with low load factors and low yields. However if it doesn't work, they could always petition to get the flight moved to GUM, which is almost guaranteed to be profitable on a 737-800. Whether or not the DOT cares about GUM is a different question.
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YRA
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:35 pm

So why did AA give up the rights to JFK-HND in the first place? That would seem an important route to keep especially post-merger with US.
 
jfk777
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 34):
Japan recently went through a round of daylight HND slots, and US got none of it. Supposedly no more new HND daylight slot rounds until after Tokyo 2020

The only daytime flights of NorthAmerica to HND would be via YVR (NH) or YYZ (AC) - really convenient for Star travelers

thoght there were 4 slots for USA airlines.
 
a380787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:52 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 37):
thoght there were 4 slots for USA airlines.

sadly, none

Canada 1
China 2
England 2
France 2
Germany 2
Indonesia 1
Singapore 2
Thailand 1
Vietnam 1
 
sr117
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:05 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 38):
sadly, none

As of yet..

According to this, slots for the US are yet to be awarded:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...irport-remains-the-main-hub-132103

Slots for the US routes are no doubt the most coveted and anticipated, since Japanese carriers receive the same amount of slots that foreign airlines get. So, 4 slots for US carriers means 4 slots for Japanese carriers.

It would be quite unfair to not award US slots as DL, HA and AA have been more or less serving HND regularly despite the awful times permitted, while Air Canada or most European airlines decided not to even try. I doubt that they should now be awarded with prime time slots while the incumbent US carriers are left operating at the undesirable times.

No doubt there's some sort of negotiations going on, maybe with regards with the slots that US carriers currently hold at NRT for Asia flights?
 
ridgid727
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:47 am

In the course of the DOT's prosecution of these applications, Hawaiian has responded as follows in regard to their application.

December 9, 2013

Consolidated Answer of Hawaiian Airlines -

In contrast to other carriers, Hawaiian has fulfilled every promise that it has made to the Department and maximized the opportunity presented by the Department’s initial award. Indeed, Hawaiian has used the initial grant of Haneda slots as a platform to expand service throughout Japan, taking advantage of the Open Skies agreement to provide new, competitive service between the two countries. Hawaiian’s track record compels confidence that Hawaiian will make the most of the reallocated Haneda frequency.

In making its prior awards of Haneda slots, the Department has sought to promote “geographic diversity” by selecting “US-Haneda gateways” operated by different carriers across the country. The carriers awarded the slot pairs for mainland service, however, have largely squandered the opportunity granted by the Department. In particular, carriers operating gateways located in the eastern half of the country have failed. Within 15 months of starting service to Detroit, Delta applied to transfer the service to Seattle, and now American Airlines has returned the slot pair allocated for its Haneda-JFK service. Meanwhile, airlines operating west coast gateways have struggled, and airlines have experienced low load factors, repeatedly cancelled service and down-gauged their aircraft. Now, United proposes San Francisco service that is duplicative of existing service and duplicative of its own service from Narita International Airport to both SFO and the service of its Star Alliance partner All Nippon Airways to both SFO and nearby San Jose. United’s proposal urges the Department to insert more capacity into an already over-served market, where existing service is being withdrawn and down-gauged.

In this proceeding, the Department has the opportunity to reallocate a slot pair to a carrier that will maximize the public benefits by awarding a second frequency to Hawaiian. By selecting Hawaiian’s Kona application, the Department will facilitate the introduction of service to a new Haneda gateway and allow the introduction of service on the second largest O&D route without nonstop service from Tokyo. The resulting award will produce the most public benefits because it will stimulate Japanese-originating traffic and bring more Japanese visitors to the United States.

Counsel: Dow Lohnes, Jonathan Hill, 202-776-2000
 
a380787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:05 am

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 40):
The resulting award will produce the most public benefits because it will stimulate Japanese-originating traffic and bring more Japanese visitors to the United States.

What a load of self-serving propaganda.

The only benefits of HND-KOA would be Japanese tourists and the state of Hawaii. Meanwhile, with a HND-SFO flight, both Japanese and Lower-48 pax would benefit immensely, not to mention economic benefits spreading across multiple states

HA is also stuck with A330 while UA has the potential to up gauge to 3-class 744 if the service proves successful
 
COSPN
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:29 am

GUM is much bigger market than than KOA
 
a380787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:55 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 42):
GUM is much bigger market than than KOA

I'm actually surprised that the Japanese like KOA more than OGG ... some cultural links ?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:12 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 43):
I'm actually surprised that the Japanese like KOA more than OGG ... some cultural links ?

I'm not sure they do. I think it has more to do with runway lengths. OGG is about 6900 feet, which is probably too short for OGG-TYO non-stop. KOA is longer. I suspect that has more to do with it.

I have an off the wall idea. Would ANC-HND work for AS? Could a 738 or 737-900ER do it?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:29 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 44):
Could a 738 or 737-900ER do it?

no. it would be about 3,000nm....which is the max range for the 800(WL) and about 200nms short for a 900ER(WL) without extra tanks.....which I believe AS doesn't have any of the extra tanks in its 900ER fleet.
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PHX787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:04 pm

Quoting sr117 (Reply 39):
According to this, slots for the US are yet to be awarded:

The slots at HND IIRC were meant to go towards sAsian countries and the middle east. The USA already has a very large chunk of slots at HND.


I personally wish they'd just liberalize the damn airport and let the market figure out if building NRT was absolutely necessary, but alas, there is very little runway room at Haneda. Watching a takeoff immediately bank off to the right is quite entertaining to me.
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a380787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
I personally wish they'd just liberalize the damn airport and let the market figure out if building NRT was absolutely necessary, but alas, there is very little runway room at Haneda.

In that scenario, Narita would immediately become the next Mirabel

Not to mention pure laissez faire leads to over-scheduling and slot squatting by the incumbents, increasing delays and reducing the chance of new airlines to arrive at HND.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 44):
I have an off the wall idea. Would ANC-HND work for AS? Could a 738 or 737-900ER do it?

It would be nonsensical given that there is little local demand from Alaska to Japan aside from cargo. If there was, then AS would have started a flight to NRT long before. HND doesn't stand a chance in this case.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 41):
What a load of self-serving propaganda.

Agreed. While HA presents a strong business case for the route, ultimately, United's is stronger.

http://upgrd.com/aerospace/us-dot-to...yo-haneda-route-awarding-soon.html
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a380787
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RE: DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding

Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 48):

It would be nonsensical given that there is little local demand from Alaska to Japan aside from cargo. If there was, then AS would have started a flight to NRT long before. HND doesn't stand a chance in this case.

Except that ANC-NRT is 3433mi, and I don't know any plane in their fleet that could handle that reliably without major payload penalty

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