FlyDeltaJets
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US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:59 am

Last night a US flight between PHL and ISP was cancelled after what appers to be passengers protesting the removal of a blind passenger after a dispute between that passenger and the crew regarding how his guide dog was positined under his seat.

A local Philadelphia ABC Station has the story


Excerpt:

Passenger Frank Ohlhorst described what happened.

"When we, the passengers, realized what was going on, we were, like, 'Why is this happening? He's not a problem. What is going on?'" said Ohlhorst. "And we all kind of raised our voices and said, 'This is a real problem.' The captain came out of the cockpit and he basically asked us all to leave the aircraft."

The airline says both the dog and the unrest among the passengers created a safety hazard as defined by its operating protocols.

The flight was eventually cancelled.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:04 am

Off topic, but I actually flew on flight 4384 last Tuesday!

I'm waiting to hear the full story before I pass judgement, butit was a BIG dog, I doubt he could've gotten it under the seat. But at the same time, isn't it a safety violation to have an animal on the seat, service or otherwise?

However the incident occured, I hope everybody got to their destinations safely.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
YQBexYHZBGM
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:24 am

I viewed the TV news story. If the behavior of the flight attendant was indeed as described, this incident was offensive and unwarranted, whether "just following company policy" or not. There's no way that dog could fit under a seat. As long as it was on its leash and held by its owner, it should have been allowed. Service animals are not pets. I hope various disability advocacy groups and their lawyers teach the parties involved a lesson.
Al
 
rampart
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:32 am

No guide dog I've ever met, Labrador, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, including my own former guide dog, would ever fit UNDER an airliner seat. However, they can fit easily under the passenger's legs and not interfering with other passengers. I think it's an ADA violation to prohibit the guide dog.

-Rampart
 
doug_or
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 5):
I think it's an ADA violation to prohibit the guide dog.

ADA does not apply to airlines, that would be the ACAA, which does not trump op specs. I believe most allow the dog to occupy a seat adjoining the person. Not sure if seat is comped or pax is expected to pay for an extra seat.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:29 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 3):
I think it's an ADA violation to prohibit the guide dog.
Quoting doug_Or (Reply 4):
ADA does not apply to airlines, that would be the ACAA

Correct the ACAA is the federal regulation and it would have been in the airline's best interest to have a CRO present anytime a situation regarding a passenger with a disability is developing.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
Mir
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:49 am

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 4):
I believe most allow the dog to occupy a seat adjoining the person.

No, the dog is not allowed to occupy a seat. It must be on the floor.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ikramerica
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 2):
I viewed the TV news story. If the behavior of the flight attendant was indeed as described, this incident was offensive and unwarranted, whether "just following company policy" or not. There's no way that dog could fit under a seat. As long as it was on its leash and held by its owner, it should have been allowed. Service animals are not pets. I hope various disability advocacy groups and their lawyers teach the parties involved a lesson.

As someone familiar with the situation, you are right that there is no breed of guide dog that can fit underneath a seat. When my family raises guide dogs, they take trips to the airport, and the school arranges flight training occasionally, usually just at the gate but once in a while they actually fly. Never are they asked to try to shove the dog under the seat. Under the legs is what they are trained for.

The dog is trained to guide the blind person, even in an emergency. It's not a hazard because it isn't ever going to be in the way.

US has some splainin to do. While it may be a federal regulation to comply with the flight crew, when the flight crew asks you to do something that isn't possible, it's not lack of compliance when you can't do it. The dog can't fit under the seat, so the FA could ask until he/she is blue in the face. Doesn't change the reality that the dog doesn't fit. Guide dogs have special treatment under the law (not the same as a "helping animal" or a "comfort animal.") They can enter restaurants despite health codes prohibiting dogs. They can go to beaches despite many beaches prohibiting dogs.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
doug_or
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:30 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
No, the dog is not allowed to occupy a seat. It must be on the floor.

-Mir

You're correct. This is in our F/A and CS manuals as well. I wonder if this is universal and if so, how the pigs and small horses have gotten on in the past?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
D L X
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:31 am

I don't know... it sure sounds like some journalistic elements are missing from this story.

Where do guide dogs normally sit on a Dash 8? US Airways is claiming to have been in the right:

Quote:

US Airways transports more than 80 million customers each year and ensures that all customers, including those with disabilities, are treated with dignity and respect. We're particularly sensitive to those customers who travel with service animals since we partner with Assistance Dogs International (ADI), an organization that trains and places assistance dogs around the world. US Airways employees volunteer to travel with and work with assistance dogs in training to help them prepare for travel with disabled partners. Over the past 10 years, US Airways employees have participated in transports everywhere from California to Croatia.

In this instance, Mr. Rizzi became disruptive and refused to comply with crew member instructions when the flight attendant asked him to secure his service dog at his feet. As a result of his disruptive behavior, the crew returned to the gate and removed Mr. Rizzi and his service dog from the flight. The flight eventually cancelled and we transported Mr. Rizzi, his service dog, and the rest of our passengers on the flight to ISP by bus.

We apologize to the customers of the flight for the inconvenience. We are continuing to investigate the incident.
 
rampart
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:50 am

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 4):
ADA does not apply to airlines, that would be the ACAA, which does not trump op specs.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

-Rampart
 
TW870
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:09 am

Something doesn't add up with this story. When I was a United flight attendant, I had guide dogs on the airplane all the time. Customer service would put the passenger and the dog on a (non-exit) bulkhead, and the dog would be in the floor in front of the passenger. The only breed of guide dog I ever had was a golden retriever. A dog that big would clearly not fit under any seat in any cabin. Unless this flight attendant was brand new, they would have had a vision impaired passenger with a dog before and they would have been used to the procedure. They would also have trained on it, as we certainly did at United in the mockup. I am guessing the media coverage is missing details here.
 
ikramerica
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:19 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 9):
Where do guide dogs normally sit on a Dash 8? US Airways is claiming to have been in the right:

The dog should always go under the legs of the blind person. If the F/A was asking him to put his dog under the seat, it would be impossible to comply. If the man was having the dog in the aisle and refused to move it, then he is at fault because it would prevent the F/A from doing his/her job.

Wonder where the truth lies.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:21 am

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 2):
I hope various disability advocacy groups and their lawyers teach the parties involved a lesson.

Do that and someone will complain that the US is too litigious.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
sharktail
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:56 am

This article has more information:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/14/tr...man-us-airways-incident/index.html

Looks like the man was seated in the middle seat at the back of the plane and therefore the dog could become a projectile.

The flight attendant asked for the dog to move rather than move the man which was wrong. The dog is trained to stay with his master. So he would continue to go back. That caused the issue and and it escalated from there.

Clearly the flight attendant is at fault as well as the gate agent for not reseating the man. The dog did what he was trained to do: stay under the legs of his master. The passenger could not retrain his dog in 5 minutes.

Seems like US skipped the dash flight attendants when training FA's on handling service dogs.
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:01 am

honestly those passengers make me proud to be an american. Good job guys! and is ISP-PHL mainline?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:40 pm

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 15):

"Is PHL-ISP mainline?"

HA! I wish man!   No it's all Dash 8's  
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
YQBexYHZBGM
Posts: 213
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 17):

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 15):
"Is PHL-ISP mainline?"
HA! I wish man!   No it's all Dash 8's  

It was CRJs until fairly recently, was it not? (If not the regularly-assigned aircraft, I am certain I observed a CRJ at the gate when the flight to ISP boarding in December 2012). I pay attention to these things, since ISP was my "home" airport until I moved away.
Al
 
c680
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:15 pm

For those of you interested in the actual Federal Regulation:

§ 382.37 Seat assignments.
(a) Carriers shall not exclude any qualified individual with a disability from any seat in an exit row or other location or require that a qualified individual with a disability sit in any particular seat, on the basis of disability, except in order to comply with the requirements of an FAA safety regulation or as provided in this section.
(b) If a person's disability results in involuntary active behavior that would result in the person properly being refused transportation under § 382.31, and the safety problem could be mitigated to a degree that would permit the person to be transported consistent with safety if the person is seated in a particular location, the carrier shall offer the person that particular seat location as an alternative to being refused transportation.
(c) If a service animal cannot be accommodated at the seat location of the qualified individual with a disability whom the animal is accompanying (see § 382.55(a)(2)), the carrier shall offer the passenger the opportunity to move with the animal to a seat location, if present on the aircraft, where the animal can be accommodated, as an alternative to requiring that the animal travel with checked baggage.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
luv2fly
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:27 pm

The fact that the passengers left with the person and his dog being removed should speak volumes on how he was being treated by this crew.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:56 pm

Here's the article in Fox this morning.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/11/15...n-with-guide-dog-kicked-off-plane/

One of the pax was so upset about it he was ready to rent a car and drive the blind man and his dog home!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 24):
Quoting silentbob (Reply 16):
As I understand it, the passenger refused to move to another seat where the dog could lay under the seat and insisted that he sit in the seat at the end of the aisle where there was nowhere for the dog to legally lay. The article you linked mentions 35 passengers, the aircraft seats 37, so there was obviously an empty seat somewhere. Think about it for a minute, do you really believe that passengers wouldn't offer to change seats with him, but would offer to let his dog lay in their leg room? Especially, if swapping seats with him would give them extra leg room? Even without knowing his history, the story stinks.


Too many people believe everything they read from the media...especially the first reports which are almost universally wrong in some or many ways. Better off not giving a biased opinion until you have the real facts. This story stunk from the beginning and as usual, is biased toward the passenger who has been wronged by the horrible, evil US Airways.



It's hard to believe that the passengers en masse walked off of the aircraft in support of this man if he was the one acting like a jerk or was unreasonable. That doesn't pass the smell test. It does sound much more plausible, that these passengers knowingly inconveinenced themselves in support of this man because they felt strongly that he was mistreated by the US crew. Their actions, en masse, ring true. The US crew, in the very least, needs more training and possibly some disciplinary action.

[Edited 2013-11-15 09:00:24]
 
HPRamper
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 27):
The US crew, in the very least, needs more training and possibly some disciplinary action.

You don't know that.

It is entirely plausible and quite believable that the passenger group of an aircraft would "en masse" completely misunderstand the situation and band together behind whoever they perceived was being wronged. Perception however does not always reflect reality. Groups of people love to get "outraged" over things.
 
Indy
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 33):
It is entirely plausible and quite believable that the passenger group of an aircraft would "en masse" completely misunderstand the situation and band together behind whoever they perceived was being wronged.

Or it is a case of an unhappy worker with a god complex. Just think of the miserable security guards you see in businesses. They are unhappy with life, poorly paid, and given authority. It makes for a bad recipe. We could be looking at a jerk FA or a jerk passenger. Either is very possible. But the fact that the passengers were willing to risk their flight in defense of the other passenger says something. It says to me the crew was likely acting with a god complex and nobody cares for that kind of attitude. Or worse... it could have been a jerk passenger and jerk FA. Worst possible combination there. There is no way that one ends up well.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
CplKlinger
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
For what it's worth, US Airways' statement named the guy. Sounds like they've had it with him.

Well, if US Airways chooses to relase that info, fine. However, I would say that it is not the authority of some unnamed former employee to release any more information on top of that.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 33):
It is entirely plausible and quite believable that the passenger group of an aircraft would "en masse" completely misunderstand the situation and band together behind whoever they perceived was being wronged.

Not likely on a small, 35 passenger aircraft. No doubt, everyone on that aircraft knew of the altercation within a few minutes. I'm sure that most of them are not robotic stooges just following a crowd expressing righteous indignation over an incident that they did not witness. I surely wouldn't have gotten off that aircraft if I were not deeply incensed at what happened.
 
9w748capt
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:06 pm

SO EXCITED AA is merging with this airline!   
 
D L X
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:33 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 34):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 33):
It is entirely plausible and quite believable that the passenger group of an aircraft would "en masse" completely misunderstand the situation and band together behind whoever they perceived was being wronged.

Or it is a case of an unhappy worker with a god complex.

Why are you more likely to believe it is a person with a god complex than the blind man being at fault?
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 41):
Quoting Indy (Reply 34):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 33):
It is entirely plausible and quite believable that the passenger group of an aircraft would "en masse" completely misunderstand the situation and band together behind whoever they perceived was being wronged.

Or it is a case of an unhappy worker with a god complex.

Why are you more likely to believe it is a person with a god complex than the blind man being at fault?

After reading several articles about this incident, not one of the blind man's fellow passengers fault him or in any way insinuate that he started this altercation or brought it upon himself.
 
robsaw
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 22):
Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 27):
The US crew, in the very least, needs more training and possibly some disciplinary action.

You don't know that.

It is entirely plausible and quite believable that the passenger group of an aircraft would "en masse" completely misunderstand the situation and band together behind whoever they perceived was being wronged. Perception however does not always reflect reality. Groups of people love to get "outraged" over things.

All sorts of things are "plausible" but that doesn't make them probable. In the domain of reasoned speculation I am going with "The US crew, in the very least, needs more training and possibly some disciplinary action." as MORE probable.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 17):
It was CRJs until fairly recently, was it not?

Not for the last few years, sadly.

Quoting YQBexYHZBGM (Reply 17):
If not the regularly-assigned aircraft, I am certain I observed a CRJ at the gate when the flight to ISP boarding in December 2012). I pay attention to these things, since ISP was my "home" airport until I moved away.

They fly to DCA from ISP too, using CRJ-200s (and an extra flight on an ERJ in the Spring/Summer   )
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
Flighty
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 30):
Not for the last few years, sadly.

A Dash is a much superior ride to a CRJ.

It sounds like PHL ground did not set this up well. Back seat middle is not where the guy should have been.

But, it does suggest a full flight. Therefore he could not have his own row. What to do? Bulkhead.

[Edited 2013-11-15 12:17:16]
 
eal46859
Posts: 39
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:28 pm

It seems clear from the press release that the passenger became disruptive... for whatever reason..

A service animal such as a Golden Retriever would be physically impossible to go under the seat in front, so unless the seat was un bolted from the aircraft and held up by large supports, the conjecture that the flight crew was insisting that the dog go under the seat is not worth mentioning again since, it is not a physical possibility in reality.

So either the passenger wanted to have the dog on the seat next to him and not under his feet and legs and he refused, or there was some other reason the crew felt he was being disruptive, it was to the point that they cancelled the flight.

If it was because he wanted the dog on the seat next to him and the other passengers felt he should be able to do so, since it wasn't causing an issue in their view, does not make their opinion, resentments or their outrage correct or justified. They just ended up inconveniencing themselves and everyone else on that aircraft.
 
D L X
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 28):
After reading several articles about this incident, not one of the blind man's fellow passengers fault him or in any way insinuate that he started this altercation or brought it upon himself.

Okay, I'll play.

How many said it was the FA's fault? How many said it was the Captain's fault? How many said it was the Airline's fault? And finally, how many passengers were quoted as saying that? Because all the stories I read quote the same guy.

Now, I'm not trying to get on your case or anything. I'm just saying that most of the people on this thread have immediately swung to defend the blind guy with a great paucity of information in his support other than his being a blind guy.

The captain and the airline (so far) seem to agree with the F/A so strongly that they outed the guy by name in their press release.

[Edited 2013-11-15 12:39:28]
 
rampart
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting eal46859 (Reply 32):
A service animal such as a Golden Retriever would be physically impossible to go under the seat in front, so unless the seat was un bolted from the aircraft and held up by large supports, the conjecture that the flight crew was insisting that the dog go under the seat is not worth mentioning again since, it is not a physical possibility in reality.

I'm told that guide dogs are specifically bred to be small for their breed for the exact purpose of fitting in tight public places like airplanes and buses, theater and stadium seats, and restaurant booths. German Shepherd guide dogs I've known are not the hulking police dogs most would imagine, but are petite. I think the small-bred Labs, German Shepherds, and Goldens would at least partially fit under an airline seat as well as under the passenger's legs. That's what I'm told. (And this does correct my statement I made much earlier, when I thought that dogs would not fit under the seats at all.)

-Rampart
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:46 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
But, it does suggest a full flight. Therefore he could not have his own row. What to do? Bulkhead.

4384 often goes out full (if not oversold like when I flew it last Tuesday). And I agree, the bulkhead is where he should've been. I flew in 1F last week and that dog could've definitely fit there. (I'm 6'1" and there was room so the dog wouldn't have been too unconfortable).

Quoting Flighty (Reply 31):
A Dash is a much superior ride to a CRJ.

Oh I know, I just meant that it's sad that ISP cannot support something larger to PHL. Maybe after the Dashes are retired.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
Posts: 1469
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 33):
Okay, I'll play.

How many said it was the FA's fault? How many said it was the Captain's fault? How many said it was the Airline's fault? And finally, how many passengers were quoted as saying that? Because all the stories I read quote the same guy.

You can do your own due diligence. I read 5 different articles about the same incident. I found in those articles 6 of his fellow passengers who are named say that the blind man was not at fault. A few of these same individuals blamed the crew and by extension the airline for their poor handling and judgement in this matter.
 
wjcandee
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:54 pm

One dimwit FA's "disruptive" is most people's "assertive". The fact is that in most circumstances, passengers become belligerant over stupidities and alcohol and may need to be shut down; even if it might be handled better, it doesn't have to be.

But to think that you can try to take away a blind person's GUIDE DOG and not have them react in a heated manner is just naive. These idiots need to be retrained on procedures with the disabled. "Act as imperious and snotty as you want with most passengers, Barbie, but if it's a disabled person, recognize that THEY have done many more legs with a guide dog than you have, and probably actually know the rules, which you may have forgotten. Treat them like kings and queens and you will be fine."
 
JBLUA320
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:23 pm

Through three hour tarmac delays and other onboard issues, I have never seen a service dog get restless to the point of disruption nor have I ever known any of my fellow flight attendants to think it's a good idea to toy around with a blind passenger, something we deal with routinely. Airlines instill the fear of God in their crews when it comes to disability compliance and for good reason - it's ethical and the fines the airline can face are tremendous. This whole thing is sketchy for a few reasons:

First...If the passenger was seated in the last row middle seat of the Dash where the dog could become a projectile, then the passenger should have been reseated well ahead of the hour the Dash sat on the ground waiting for clearance. The plane should have not pushed out of compliance, so this should have been caught before the door was ever closed.

Secondly, if that was indeed the passenger's seat, there is NO seat for the dog to hypothetically fit under. You can't get mad about a seat that obviously doesn't exist.

Thirdly, passengers routinely back up fellow passengers even when policy states otherwise, regardless of who is right or who is wrong. With that being said...

Fourthly, I find it hard to believe that 30 passengers decided to get involved in this man's business on the last flight of the evening from PHL-ISP, which was clearly delayed already, after the plane returned to the gate. What sounds more logical to me is that the plane returned (to boot the man or to have him speak to a CRO, who knows) and for operational reasons, US canceled the flight, and presumably, the morning return to PHL if it was a RON in ISP. I don't believe that 30 passengers caused the flight to cancel, nor do I believe that this situation had anything to do with the flight not operating. If all of those passengers refused to board because of this situation, then US would be under zero obligation to provide a bus and the aircraft would have probably ferried to ISP to operate its return segment to keep the crew and aircraft in sequence. That didn't happen and I'd bet good money it was for reasons having almost nothing to do with this man and his dog.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 38):
Fourthly, I find it hard to believe that 30 passengers decided to get involved in this man's business on the last flight of the evening from PHL-ISP, which was clearly delayed already, after the plane returned to the gate. What sounds more logical to me is that the plane returned (to boot the man or to have him speak to a CRO, who knows) and for operational reasons, US canceled the flight, and presumably, the morning return to PHL if it was a RON in ISP. I don't believe that 30 passengers caused the flight to cancel, nor do I believe that this situation had anything to do with the flight not operating. If all of those passengers refused to board because of this situation, then US would be under zero obligation to provide a bus and the aircraft would have probably ferried to ISP to operate its return segment to keep the crew and aircraft in sequence. That didn't happen and I'd bet good money it was for reasons having almost nothing to do with this man and his dog.

I never thought of it that way. Thanks for shedding some light on the situation from a professional point of view (professional as in somebody who is part of the profession involved, not as in the posters before you have been unprofessional)
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
D L X
Posts: 11638
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting DL WIDGET HEAD (Reply 36):
You can do your own due diligence. I read 5 different articles about the same incident. I found in those articles 6 of his fellow passengers who are named say that the blind man was not at fault. A few of these same individuals blamed the crew and by extension the airline for their poor handling and judgement in this matter.

So, you're not going to show us any of your articles that back up your claim? It would help your argument if you did.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 37):
But to think that you can try to take away a blind person's GUIDE DOG and not have them react in a heated manner is just naive.

Who said anything about taking away the guide dog?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 3922
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:09 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 38):
Through three hour tarmac delays and other onboard issues, I have never seen a service dog get restless to the point of disruption nor have I ever known any of my fellow flight attendants to think it's a good idea to toy around with a blind passenger, something we deal with routinely.

So you have experience with placing the blind passenger into one seat with no seat in front of him and placing the dog than with an other passenger at his feet.

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 38):
First...If the passenger was seated in the last row middle seat of the Dash where the dog could become a projectile, then the passenger should have been reseated well ahead of the hour the Dash sat on the ground waiting for clearance. The plane should have not pushed out of compliance, so this should have been caught before the door was ever closed.

How can that be an argument against the blind man? All articles state that the passenger was placed exactly into that seat and not re seated by the flight attendant. So the rest of your arguments go out into the wind because this flight did not do things the way you expected him or her to do it.
 
Dash8Driver16
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:07 pm

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:52 pm

As a dash 8 pilot who has repeatedly flown that same route in the same plane, that on a whole that route has the most pax issues I have experienced. I have had passengers on arrival in ISP try and force their way past the FA into the flight deck while deplaning so they can complain about something(I.e. Noise, ride quality, FA being mean by making them turn off their phones and music). Now I don't know much other than what I have read I was not working the flight and do not know who the crew was but the dog was probably supposed to stay on the floor by the seats not under them. I have carried military German Shepherds before and what agents try and do is place the owner/handler in 9e the middle seat of the bench and leave the AC or DF side empty so the dog can lay on the floor and not be restricted by other pax feet. Obviously this did not happen and that blame goes to the gate agent Managers in PHL. Discipline the grew because they they removed what they deem a non compliant pax is moronic. That would be like saying if someone got mad at you you would be disciplined. Also an uncooperative pax becomes a safety hazard for all Pax due to not being able to rely on them in an emergency.

Do I think this is wrong? Yes I agree there should have been something done to help mitigate the situation. Whether it was trying to reseat the Pax and accommodate the dog or something else it was extremely poorly handled. But blaming the crew without the facts is dumb yes six people said the guy didn't do anything but what of the other 20 so people. I can probably find six people a flight who thought the flight was crap. It's time to all take a deep breath and look at this in a whole new light, were there regs/rules being violated? Could this have been handled better? After working what May have been a 14 hour day and then being stuck on the Tarmac for an hour and a half with grumpy pax how would you have felt. Think these things over and then majestic your judgement. As we all know the media loves a good aviation bashing story when they can get one (SWA?).
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:48 am

The regulation clearly states the pax and dog be moved, they should not be separated.

Quoting rampart (Reply 34):

Not true. They are not bread with tight spaces in mind. They are bread with lower rear hips and a height so that the average person needs a dog the grip on the harness will be comfortable for dog and person.

Generally the dogs best suited for this purpose are golden and lab retrievers and German shepherds. Outliers are also trained and bred on occasion. Smaller breads like boxers for short people, taller breads or larger shepherds or retrievers for tall people, and certain other breeds that have hair, not fur, for allergic people.

In 20+ years, our family had raised 3 shepherds and 11 retrievers for the guide dog orgs. Only about 1/2 pass their training. The rest become police dogs and other professional dogs (one of ours is an arson dog in Louisiana), companion /therapy animals, breeders(then pets) or just pets.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 2997
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RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 41):
So you have experience with placing the blind passenger into one seat with no seat in front of him and placing the dog than with an other passenger at his feet.

I actually don't even know how you extrapolated what I said to mean that at all, but I digress...

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 41):
How can that be an argument against the blind man? All articles state that the passenger was placed exactly into that seat and not re seated by the flight attendant. So the rest of your arguments go out into the wind because this flight did not do things the way you expected him or her to do it.

It's not an argument against the blind man. If anything, it's an argument against the airline. Frankly, it's an argument against all of these articles that seem to imply that 30 people rallied behind a blind customer having a crap experience with an airline, causing a flight to cancel because of it, but then miraculously received complementary bus transportation to Islip because they all refused to fly.

Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, the way this whole mess is being portrayed seems like two distinct issues being merged into one because it makes a good news story.
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 43):
Not true. They are not bread with tight spaces in mind. They are bread with lower rear hips and a height so that the average person needs a dog the grip on the harness will be comfortable for dog and person.

I don't doubt you. It's probably both. But yes, fitting in small places is relevant to the breeding and training, at least in the organization I'm familiar with. I'm curious if the training you are familiar with did not work on small spaces. I think we have the same background experience. At any rate, I've seen guide dogs fit into small places (under the subway seat, for instance).

-Rampart
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 3922
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:45 am

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 44):
So you have experience with placing the blind passenger into one seat with no seat in front of him and placing the dog than with an other passenger at his feet.

I actually don't even know how you extrapolated what I said to mean that at all, but I digress...

Read what you have written and I have been quoting and think.

My point is: when the Flight Attendant gets the start of this confrontation wrong, not placing the blind man in a seat where he can have his guide dog placed at his own feet, all the later happenings are just smoke., not relevant.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 45):
I don't doubt you. It's probably both. But yes, fitting in small places is relevant to the breeding and training, at least in the organization I'm familiar with. I'm curious if the training you are familiar with did not work on small spaces. I think we have the same background experience. At any rate, I've seen guide dogs fit into small places (under the subway seat, for instance).

I have never heard that "fitting in small spaces" was a primary breeding concern. The hips and overall shoulder height are bred in for better gait and comfort for the average person. Temperament and intelligence are also of paramount importance, as are blood lines that don't exhibit congenital problems.

I'm only familiar with the Seeing Eye and SouthEastern. They do things differently between them. Seeing Eye uses a lot more Shepherds, SE rarely uses them at all. All of our Shepherds were about the same size, we have had very different sized labs and goldens. Some of our labs were anything but compact, others were smaller than average.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:56 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 46):
My point is: when the Flight Attendant gets the start of this confrontation wrong, not placing the blind man in a seat where he can have his guide dog placed at his own feet, all the later happenings are just smoke., not relevant.

I'm not going to argue with you, but they are absolutely relevant. Every mistake, every distraction, everything that was said is all relevant to paint the larger picture of what happened. If understanding the big picture didn't matter, Threat and Error Management (TEM) and Crew Resource Management (CRM) would be out the window. The Flight Attendant not moving the passenger earlier is just one layer of a multi-layered mistake on myriad levels.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 3922
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: US Cancels Flight After Pax Protest

Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:37 am

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 48):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 46):
My point is: when the Flight Attendant gets the start of this confrontation wrong, not placing the blind man in a seat where he can have his guide dog placed at his own feet, all the later happenings are just smoke., not relevant.

I'm not going to argue with you, but they are absolutely relevant. Every mistake, every distraction, everything that was said is all relevant to paint the larger picture of what happened. If understanding the big picture didn't matter, Threat and Error Management (TEM) and Crew Resource Management (CRM) would be out the window. The Flight Attendant not moving the passenger earlier is just one layer of a multi-layered mistake on myriad levels.

Having done that mistake and not correcting it, the flight attendant has derailed the situation. The rest is smoke the result of a wrong situation from the start, if TEM and CRM does not realize that, than there is no help.
When wrong decisions are backed up by absolute authority the situation will go down the drain.

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