BigSaabowski
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Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:45 pm

Just happened 20 minutes ago. According to LIVEATC, N115WF was cleared to land on runway 15 with a wind report of 330/16. The accident happened on landing.
 
BigSaabowski
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:49 pm

Doesn't look good:

https://twitter.com/StarshipFriends/status/419914264782962688/photo/1
 
sandyb123
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:54 pm

Here she is at my home airport EDI:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lawrence Smith

Photo from aircraft in the line up to take off.

Eye witness reporting 'engine explosion'.

Hoping for the best for all involved.

Sandyb123

[Edited 2014-01-05 11:55:36]
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KarelXWB
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:57 pm

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
G500
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:00 pm

Aspen is a very tough approach if you're not familiar....

I'm not talking about this accident because i don't know what happened but if get behind, you'll be high and fast, and the Trust-reversers are not as efficient at a altitude

[Edited 2014-01-05 12:05:27]
 
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jetpixx
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:04 pm

Interesting tweets from celebrity Kevin Nealon, and LeAnn Rimes, who witnessed the crash. Social media is amazing sometimes...

http://twitchy.com/2014/01/05/horrib...sive-plane-crash-at-aspen-airport/
 
uwbadger0509
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:10 pm

I am not familiar with ASE...is 33 not used for landing because of terrain? That's a strong tailwind to be dealing with on landing.
 
RDUCO
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:13 pm

for the alliance
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:15 pm

Just saw it on CNN. Doesn't look good but the aftermath without the flames looks more survivable than I originally thought.

My prayers go out to the passengers and their families. I hope everybody is okay.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
bnatraveler
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:17 pm

Very familiar with ASE - it's a hard airport to land on. Looks like the flight circled quite a bit on inbound waiting for either traffic or favorable winds to arrive.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...F/history/20140105/1615Z/KTUS/KASE
 
mach2is2slowaz
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:35 pm

Looks like they were having issues on approach based on the flight aware track. visibility maybe? I pray that everyone is ok. Aspen is currently closed due to the accident. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...F/history/20140105/1615Z/KTUS/KASE
Flightaware track of aircraft before accident in Aspin CO.
 
Sligo
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting bnatraveler (Reply 9):
Very familiar with ASE - it's a hard airport to land on. Looks like the flight circled quite a bit on inbound waiting for either traffic or favorable winds to arrive.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...F/history/20140105/1615Z/KTUS/KASE

Their circling looked like it was directly into the landing pattern. Pure speculation, but perhaps a missed approach or two?
 
dwcontroller
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:47 pm

The Aspen Times reporting 3 souls on board; 1 deceased, 1 in critical condition and 1 with minor injuries.
Best phrase to hear at the airport - "All standbys have been cleared and may board at this time"
 
rfields5421
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:07 pm

Quoting uwbadger0509 (Reply 6):
I am not familiar with ASE...is 33 not used for landing because of terrain? That's a strong tailwind to be dealing with on landing.

Yes, terrain is a major issue.

Almost always landings are on 15 - especially if a jet aircraft. Takeoffs are almost always on 33.

After takeoff aircraft turn left and use a localizer to direct them out of the valley away from incoming traffic and rising terrain.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting rduco (Reply 7):

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N115WF

Any ideas on what the 360 deg turn was for part way through the flight?
Fortune favours the brave
 
N766UA
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 14):
Any ideas on what the 360 deg turn was for part way through the flight?

Holding/vector for traffic inbound to ASE, most likely.
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N243NW
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting uwbadger0509 (Reply 6):
I am not familiar with ASE...is 33 not used for landing because of terrain?

Yes. For all intensive purposes, ASE is a "one way in, one way out" airport. 16 knots of direct tailwind is huge. Would this be beyond the limits in the AFM?

I sure hope that all the holding didn't mean that the crew no longer had enough fuel to divert elsewhere and therefore were pressured into making the approach in marginal conditions.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
runner13
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 14):
Any ideas on what the 360 deg turn was for part way through the flight?

Just listened to the archive on liveatc. They went around due to a 30 knot tailwind. The falcon that landed before them reported a gain of 20 knots on landing. I would speculate wind had a lot to do with this tragic accident.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting mach2is2slowaz (Reply 10):
Looks like they were having issues on approach based on the flight aware track. visibility maybe?

There is one missed approach or 'look see' - down to 12,500 ft 3.5 miles out from the runway before climbing back and turning. That's almost 5,000 ft above the runway at 3.5 miles.

11 minutes later they went back to the runway and were almost 1,000 ft lower at 4.7 miles from the runway.

The first two loops where all too high to be an approach - where likely circling for other traffic.

ASE is a head to head runway. They have to sequence departure aircraft to go out to avoid incoming aircraft.
 
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Joshu
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:45 pm

One heck of an image here:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdP8DfmCcAA5FVH.jpg:large
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enilria
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting JOshu (Reply 19):
One heck of an image here:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdP8DfmCcAA5FVH.jpg:large

:o Wow

The ski lift is so close to the runway that it is visible in the photo???

[Edited 2014-01-05 14:59:05]
 
doug_or
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting N243NW (Reply 16):
Yes. For all intensive purposes

Intents and purposes. While we're at it, moot point, not mute.

That is all.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
SuseJ772
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
The ski lift is so close to the runway that it is visible in the photo???

Yes it is. I have never flown into ASE, but skied there many times. This is arguably the toughest approach in the US. I can't imagine doing it with a 16kts tailwind.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
jetjeanes
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:41 pm

Wasnt it Sandra Bullock involved in one of the last Private jets that crashed there and she got out ok,,,
i can see for 80 miles
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting jetjeanes (Reply 23):
Wasnt it Sandra Bullock involved in one of the last Private jets that crashed there and she got out ok,,,

I believe that was JAC, when the plane she was on overran the runway. Nothing to this caliber.  
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Goldenshield
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:58 pm

Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 22):
This is arguably the toughest approach in the US. I can't imagine doing it with a 16kts tailwind.

And just in case anyone is wondering, air carriers flying to ASE wouldn't have been attempting an approach with that much tailwind as it exceeded operating limitations.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
jetjeanes
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:11 am

Ive heard it was difficult to get in there,, but do they shutdown at dusk ??
i can see for 80 miles
 
rfields5421
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:12 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
The ski lift is so close to the runway that it is visible in the photo???

The ski lift start is about 1/2 mile past the end of the runway to the south. You can see where it starts on Google Earth/ Maps.

That is completely out of the flight path. A missed approach/ go around on that runway has to be initiated 2 or 3 miles north of the runway with a 150 degree turn to the right.

Do not overfly the runway climbing - there is an 11,000 foot ridge south of the runway - over 3,000 higher than the runway.
 
mach92
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:25 am

Having flown into here many times. My company has a 10 knot tailwind MAX at any airport. With the winds reported this aircraft was far beyond the limitations. Last report was 340/29 which is a huge tailwind for runway 15. Sorry I would have not even tried to land in that. This smells pilot error or lack of limitations for the aircraft. God speed to everyone.
 
SuseJ772
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:26 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 26):
And just in case anyone is wondering, air carriers flying to ASE wouldn't have been attempting an approach with that much tailwind as it exceeded operating limitations.

That's what I thought, but didn't know for sure. I know that ASE flight gets cancelled a good bit more than your average flight. Specifically for this reason.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
trnswrld
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:30 am

Prayers with everyone involved. I can't imagine what those rescuers have to go through in cases like this. Just the thought of being the first one to open the door in a badly wrecked plane that's still intact and not knowing what your going to see when you open it.
Based on videos from the terminal area I wouldn't wanna be on any of those planes attempting to land in those conditions. Scary!! I wonder if these private jet pilots ever get pressured from these celebrity/wealthy/VIP passengers to do things they would normally think twice about. I would like to think it doesn't, but who knows what happens when your dealing first hand with those kind of people.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:39 am

Yes, the pax can, and sometime do, pressure the crew. The GIII that crashed at ASE was, at least partially, a result of the passengers pressuring the crew. More here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2003/AAB0203.pdf
 
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Plainplane
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:54 am

It's CNN's top story right now, sadly one of the flight crew have perished.  http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/us/colorado-plane-crash/index.html
 
CALMSP
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:05 am

Here's a pic from a family member who lives in ASE.

ASE air crash Jan 5, 2014
 
n6238p
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:26 am

Max tailwind component I believe on the CL601 is 10kts. While preliminary, the wind checks on the ATC recording show the plane attempting to land way above that. Dunno what else to say but thoughts and prayers go out to the people onboard and their families.
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usxguy
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:34 am

I believe I read that the max tailwind is 10kts for a CL 600/601
xx
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:41 am

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 32):
Yes, the pax can, and sometime do, pressure the crew. The GIII that crashed at ASE was, at least partially, a result of the passengers pressuring the crew.

I thought the Aaliyah incident at MHH on August 25, 2001 made pressuring/intimidating the crew to perform unsafe acts illegal. Is that not correct?
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
SuseJ772
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 32):
Yes, the pax can, and sometime do, pressure the crew. The GIII that crashed at ASE was, at least partially, a result of the passengers pressuring the crew. More here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2...3.pdf

I have had two people in my life that have given me access to private jets and turboprops. One sounds EXACTLY like the person in the NTSB report and former boss, another is my current boss and very good friend. Needless to say, there's a reason I don't work for the former guy. Luckily, I never had a situation like this, but I will admit every time I stepped on his plane it made me slightly uncomfortable because the guy was so irrational and demanding. As a private pilot (of Cessnas), I would have never let that guy on my plane. I genuinely feel for the private pilots in that report as I know what it is like around those people and it is sometimes hard to say no in a gray area like that.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 37):
I thought the Aaliyah incident at MHH on August 25, 2001 made pressuring/intimidating the crew to perform unsafe acts illegal. Is that not correct?

It probably is, but what good is that. The only time it really comes into play most of the people are already dead. Admittedly, they should have just said no to the request that he sit in the jump seat.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
rcair1
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:19 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 16):
Yes. For all intensive purposes, ASE is a "one way in, one way out" airport. 16 knots of direct tailwind is huge. Would this be beyond the limits in the AFM?

This seems to have changed - I grew up down the valley from Aspen (Carbondale) and I've flown in and landed 33 in Aspen in both private and commercial. Private was a 172/182. Commercial was a United Convair 580. I remember that approach well - coming in and turning over the town. But today - looking at the charts for Aspen - I see only approaches for 15 and departures for 33. There is a note about 'special permission required for 15 departure''. My last flight into Aspen would have been in 1979 or 80.

The ski area in the background is Buttermilk. There are 3 ski areas in Aspen (not counting Snowmass). Buttermilk - beginner - Ajax (that is what we called it in the day - I think most people call it Aspen Mt today) - the one that really comes down into the town, and Aspen-Highlands, a more challenging area. I preferred Highlands because the volume was much less.

[Edited 2014-01-05 18:19:46]

[Edited 2014-01-05 18:22:55]
rcair1
 
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Kaphias
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:33 am

More information from: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...fiery-plane-crash-at-aspen-airport

"The man who died was identified as the co-pilot, Sergio Emilio Carranza Barbata, 54, of Mexico, according to the sheriff's office. He was pronounced dead at the scene. The more-seriously injured victim was the pilot. The passenger was described as another pilot, the sheriff's office statement said. Their identities have not yet been released by the NTSB."
Flown on: C150/172/206, DHC-2/3, AS350, J32, Q400, CR7/9, E135/40/45/75, DC9, A320, B732/4/7/8/9, 744, 752/3, 763, MD80
 
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usxguy
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:13 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 37):
I thought the Aaliyah incident at MHH on August 25, 2001 made pressuring/intimidating the crew to perform unsafe acts illegal. Is that not correct?

Yes --- they didn't want to separate from their makeup and dresses & the original charter operator didn't quite convey the true passenger weights to the replacement operator - had they done so, the new operator probably would have told them they can only take 6. I'm told that her entourage were all BIG black men.. fairly heavy. The Cessna 402 doesn't have much of a payload, and sometimes the pilots can finagle it a bit by getting a bit more speed and using more flaps to get it off the ground. They were like 800 pounds overweight though.
xx
 
F9Animal
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:49 am

Wasn't the drummer of Blink 182 in a crash at ASE? IIRC, it was a takeoff in the same type of plane?
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clickhappy
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:56 am

Travis Barker survived a Lear 60 crash at CAE. Four people died in the crash, including his assistant and a body guard.
 
timpdx
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:58 am

So they were going in to pick someone up, makes sense on Sunday after a holiday, those guys don't sit around for 4-5 days while the celebs/VIPs hang out in Aspen...sorry to hear about the loss of life. (well, at least the gulfstream pilot I know says his company does not have him sit in an Aspen/Telluride/Sun Valley hotel for days, plane idle)
 
rfields5421
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:29 am

Quoting Plainplane (Reply 33):
It's CNN's top story right now, sadly one of the flight crew have perished. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/us/col....html

The CNN article has some good pics - including one which shows the wreckage is just to the right of the runway and with several jets in the background - near a full ramp of high dollar jets unable to leave due to the closed runway.
 
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Acey559
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:15 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 26):

I know our (Eagle) flight into ASE diverted to GJT. Not sure if it was due to the weather or the accident though.
 
pecevanne
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:43 am

Both pilots apparentely to be Ex MEXICANA PILOTS,
They were brothers
 
CO953
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:17 am

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 31):
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 37):

This brought back an old sorrow. A beautiful, young friend of mine and her boyfriend lost their lives in the Gulfstream III accident in 2001. The guy who chartered the plane in L.A. had ordered an expensive dinner that was waiting for the pax in Aspen. When the pilots were leaning toward diverting to Rifle, the charterer sat in the cockpit and pressured them to land anyway at dusk because the plans had been made in Aspen. IIRC, the rules had just changed that week regarding the cutoff time for landings, and add confusion about that new rule to the mix of pressured pilots.....

Sad, sad day.
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:31 pm

CO953 I'm sorry to hear about your loss in that accident. It was well publicized though and that may have saved lives later. I know I've mentioned it before to fellow pilots adding you can't argue with the sunset.

I was listening to this incident on liveatc.net and noticed Sunday's accident may have provided time to avoid admittedly a minor incident but who knows. One of the jets stuck on the ground by the airport closure out on taxiway A had a wheel chalk frozen to their tire. Not sure how that happened or if it was frozen in a place that allowed the wheel to turn easily. I suppose it is remotely possible the chalk could have caused damage when the gear was retracted. It also might have caused damage on the ground during descent when it would have dropped straight down from a great height when the gear extended.

[Edited 2014-01-06 04:32:23]
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Aircraft Accident At ASE

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:27 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 48):
a wheel chalk frozen to their tire

You mean a chock?

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 48):
frozen in a place that allowed the wheel to turn easily

I can't see a big, heavy piece of material being stuck to a wheel strong enough to handle the wheel turning quickly.
Fortune favours the brave

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