panam330
Topic Author
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:14 am

For those that don't follow the big MQ thread, Eagle reached a deal with their pilots and will receive 60+90 Embraer E175s as a result.

http://airchive.com/blog/2014/01/13/...-deal-pilots-receive-embraer-jets/
 
planenutok
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:07 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:25 am

The deal still has to be voted on by the pilots.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3208
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:56 am

Quoting planenutok (Reply 1):

Chances of it not passing if you had to guess?
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2811
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:18 pm

I would say no pass. As much as they have been scaled down, I don't see this passing.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
Sinlock
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:55 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:52 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 3):
I would say no pass. As much as they have been scaled down, I don't see this passing.

I'm sure the contract is not what they wanted, but I no vote could put the planes in the hands of Piedmont and/or PSA.
 
panampaul
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:01 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:13 pm

Important to note the following:

Quote:
The airline’s pilots must still ratify the deal and the vote is to take place at a future date....

Given the contentious relationship between pilots and management there, it's far from certain that it will pass altho I suspect it will.

Above from

New Pilot Contract Allows American Eagle to Add Larger Embraer Planes to Fleet

.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 3930
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:24 pm

I'll go on record as saying I dont think it will pass.

The terms are pretty brutal.

A 4 year pay scale for First Officers. That locks a FO lower than $30000 a year. Ridiculous in a booming industry with a pilot shortage.

I think the pilots at this carrier have had enough and have a contract in place already that they will stick to. AA will gradually phase them out.
 
avi8
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:30 pm

Si why is te title of the thread saying that they reached a deal and then many people saying that the pilots still have to vote? I apologize if it is a stupid question I'm just very confused.
avi8
 
panampaul
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:01 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 7):
Si why is te title of the thread saying that they reached a deal and then many people saying that the pilots still have to vote? I apologize if it is a stupid question I'm just very confused.

Eagle management and the pilots union reached an agreeement. That was the "deal" that was reached I suppose. Without such a deal, there is no opportunity for the union to bring it to the membership for a vote.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6798
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:43 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):
A 4 year pay scale for First Officers. That locks a FO lower than $30000 a year. Ridiculous in a booming industry with a pilot shortage.

If that's the case they can vote with their feet and go work somewhere else. The reality is that while the industry is booming fares aren't exactly booming. $30,000/yr is more likely what the market can bare, whether they like it or not. They still make more than a school teacher and with a lot less responsibility.
 
747fan
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:02 pm

I would be very surprised if the pilots vote yes to this contract.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 3930
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
They still make more than a school teacher and with a lot less responsibility.

Are you kidding me?

#1 In there bases of NY, BOS, Dallas, Chicago and Miami they certainly make LESS than a school teacher.

#2 when a school teacher has a bad day like WN did the other day in Branson, they do not make NATIONAL NEWS.

Frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing of the school teachers' plight in this country. Yes, we are holding them more accountable now. That's because our education system is woefully inadequate when compared with other developed countries in the world.
 
commavia
Posts: 9626
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
If that's the case they can vote with their feet and go work somewhere else. The reality is that while the industry is booming fares aren't exactly booming. $30,000/yr is more likely what the market can bare, whether they like it or not.

The bottom line is that, much like with the old adage about outrunning the bear, airlines need only undercut whatever the last concessionary deal was they got.

Thus why the Eagle pilots are in the position they're in: after PSA gave USAirways an extremely favorable (from the airline's perspective) deal, it cut Eagle pilots' negotiating position off at the knees. Eagle pilots had already cut a bankruptcy concession deal with AMR management, and then Parker rolled into town with his latest PSA contract in hand and told the Eagle pilots he wanted more.

Not nice, not popular, but that's reality - and it's just a continuation of the process that has repeatedly befallen the regional pilot profession for the last decade - from Mesa to GoJet to Pinnacle and on and on. As long as management always had another group they could go to that was willing to accept a lower-paying deal, management would simply shift the flying there. It's inevitable and inescapable economics: management would have to stand up in front of investors and defend why they weren't placing regional feed with the lowest-priced provider. (I know, I know - there's the common retort about how "lowest-priced" isn't always "lowest cost," but the point is still valid.)

I agree this process will eventually end one way or another as pilots become more scarce and thus the cost of pilot labor naturally increases, but in the interim, it will only change with further consolidation in the regional industry - either through mergers or more regionals going out of business. I think more of both is likely.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6798
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Are you kidding me?

#1 In there bases of NY, BOS, Dallas, Chicago and Miami they certainly make LESS than a school teacher.

Right but how many pilots actually live in Boston, Dallas, Chicago, Miami. At the very least they live in the suburbs where the cost of living is much lower and i bet most don't live anywhere near where their base is. Teachers have no such luxury. They have to live in Boston, Dallas, Chcago, Miami.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):

#2 when a school teacher has a bad day like WN did the other day in Branson, they do not make NATIONAL NEWS.

Indeed, if your only source of news is a.net.
The Sandy Hook shooting did not make national news? Are you f'ing kidding me?
In the U.S. how many pilots died last year while at work? How many teachers died last year while at work? How many passengers died last year while flying? How many students died last year while at school? I rest my case.

[Edited 2014-01-14 07:59:41]
 
apodino
Posts: 3022
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:54 pm

In a related story the EV pilots have overwhelmingly rejected a TA with 83 percent voting no.

Let's see if the envoy vote is similar.

[Edited 2014-01-14 07:55:18]
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
They still make more than a school teacher and with a lot less responsibility.

It's pretty pointless arguing over who has more responsibility. The jobs are very different indeed, both of them with a shed-load of responsibility. I certainly wouldn't argue pilots have less, but I probably wouldn't say the same about teachers.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
$30,000/yr is more likely what the market can bare,

It's a pretty disgraceful level of pay for the training and responsibility (if teachers are in the same boat then please, start a thread on that and I'll say the same).
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
airbazar
Posts: 6798
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
It's a pretty disgraceful level of pay for the training and responsibility (if teachers are in the same boat then please, start a thread on that and I'll say the same).

The point I was trying to make is that we live in a free capitalist market and salaries will be what the market can bare. Period. We'd all like to get paid more for our jobs but it doesn't work that way. It's what your customers are willing to pay for your services that matters, regardless of whether you're a pilot, a flight attendant, a teacher, or a mechanic.

Also to his point, teachers do have higher entry level salaries but their ceiling is a lot lower. Here in Boston a school teacher with 10+ years experience and a doctorate degree can make less than $100K. I don't see a senior 777 captain making that little money.
 
geg2rap
Posts: 721
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:02 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:11 pm

Actually the teacher and pilot analogy is pretty comparable.
Teachers only get paid when they are at work. Not when they are at home grading or staying after school helping kids (at least where I work). Pilots, similarly, get paid when the door is closed. Not doing pre-flights, walk around, mtx delays etc.
As a math teacher, I would expect to make less than a pilot for the following reasons:
1. They work year round, as a teacher I get "paid" to "work" 180 days give or take a couple. Pilots work more days per year than that.
2. While teaching is important, if I make a computation error on grades, it is not a life or death matter. And can be corrected in hindsight. If a pilot does, it could be a different story.
3. I get to be home every night with my kids. Every weekend with my kids, every holiday with my kids. Pilots don't. My wife is a pharmacist, and believe me it wakes me up to how good teaching is when she has to work a weekend or Christmas.
4. My training, while expensive, didn't require 1500 hours of work at the rate required to get flying hours. Student teaching is dumb (paying to do someones job for them while they get paid a full salary) and college tutition is crazy, but not flying hours crazy.
If I wasn't so happily married with my kids, I would love to be a pilot, but chose teaching because it doesn't impede on my ability to be a part of my kids every day life.
 
N353SK
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
how many pilots actually live in Boston, Dallas, Chicago, Miami. At the very least they live in the suburbs where the cost of living is much lower and i bet most don't live anywhere near where their base is. Teachers have no such luxury. They have to live in Boston, Dallas, Chcago, Miami.

Average teacher salary in Boston: $81,963
Average teacher salary in Waltham, MA: $70,262

source: http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx

My point being that the teacher's compensation generally varies in relation to cost of living near his school district. The RJ FO does not receive any type of of compensation for cost of living. While many young, single RJ FOs would live in urban areas near their base if they could, they simply cannot afford to.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:47 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 16):

The point I was trying to make is that we live in a free capitalist market and salaries will be what the market can bare. Period.

Great, except it doesn't always work that way. Salaries also need to be at a level in such professions which encourage talent and responsibility in spades, which regardless of what the market can bear is something eminently required in that profession. So no, that's not quite the end of it. There are always other considerations. If you're content to see standards driven down into the dirt then I wish you well, but I don't want that from those flying me around, and YES - I'll happily pay a bit extra for that.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
geg2rap
Posts: 721
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:02 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:55 pm

Just to adjust, I am a 9th year teacher in Colorado Springs and I make 45k.
 
N353SK
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting geg2rap (Reply 20):
Just to adjust, I am a 9th year teacher in Colorado Springs and I make 45k.

I fully realize that teacher salaries in Boston are probably much, much higher than most of the country. I used Massachusetts because it was the first good data set I could find. My point was that teacher salaries generally vary in relation to the cost of living in that area. You make 45k in Colorado Springs. You could probably make more as a teacher in Denver, and less as a teacher in Alamosa, no?
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 16):
The point I was trying to make is that we live in a free capitalist market and salaries will be what the market can bare. Period.

People like you are in for a big reality check in regards to your statement. Your free capitalist market pool of potential regional pilots is drying up FAST. The market will very quickly be DEMANDING pay RAISES for regional pilots. Concessionary deals are going down in flames left and right - check the latest news on XJT's rejection of their concessionary proposal. Regional airline pilots are standing up for themselves.

It is not the responsibility of a particular work group to pay and suffer for the airlines' inability to charge realistic fares. It's time for the "brilliant" management leadership to find another way to please Wall Street's demands.

Airlines have managed to adjust to a HUGE increase in fuel cost of the past decade. Fuel is a huge operating expense, way more than pilot pay. If airlines have managed to turn record profits in a recessionary economy with high fuel prices, they surely they can adjust their business to accommodate more reasonable pilot compensation, which is a pretty small piece of the overall cost pie. It IS happening as we speak, but the CEOs will do it begrudgingly, kicking and screaming. And I'll be sitting back popping popcorn watching the show unfold, laughing at people like you who refused to see it coming.

And that's how your free capitalist market works.

[Edited 2014-01-14 09:32:16]

[Edited 2014-01-14 09:32:40]
 
User avatar
b727fa
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:21 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing of the school teachers' plight in this country. Yes, we are holding them more accountable now. That's because our education system is woefully inadequate when compared with other developed countries in the world.

Our funding, education of teachers and expectations of the STUDENTS is "woefully inadequate" as well.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
The Sandy Hook shooting did not make national news? Are you f'ing kidding me?

I was thinking the same thing. What's a "bad day?" A bad day for a crew member: short call for a crappy 3 day or a re-route. A "bad day" for a teacher: fire drill in the middle of a major exam. CRAPPY day for a pilot: landing at the wrong airport or bending metal at all. CRAPPY day for a teacher: shooting in the class room. Again, define "bad day."
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
geg2rap
Posts: 721
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:02 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 21):
You could probably make more as a teacher in Denver, and less as a teacher in Alamosa, no?

Yes, but I also get to teach in a very high performing school district that expects a great deal from both teachers and students. It's a trade off like working for say G4, where you are at base every night vs DL/AA/UA where you could work up to international flying.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Frankly, I am sick and tired of hearing of the school teachers' plight in this country. Yes, we are holding them more accountable now. That's because our education system is woefully inadequate when compared with other developed countries in the world.

Not to go too off topic, but also remember in the US we educate every child until 18 (at least every child has the opportunity to get free education until 18). Many "high achieving" countries only have the future doctors, engineers etc still going into school in 9-12th grade. The future McDonalds workers are already done with school and working.
So saying our "everyone" system is not competing with their "cream of the crop" example is like saying every pilot is crazy overpaid because the average pay is $250k per year (which the cream of the international captain crop COULD make).
Oh the fun of a sick kid day
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11734
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:40 pm

Interesting... Let us see how the vote goes...

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 3):

I would say no pass. As much as they have been scaled down, I don't see this passing.

They they are voting away jobs. As noted:

Quoting Sinlock (Reply 4):
I'm sure the contract is not what they wanted, but I no vote could put the planes in the hands of Piedmont and/or PSA.

Or even an outside vendor...

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):
That locks a FO lower than $30000 a year. Ridiculous in a booming industry with a pilot shortage.

Then as noted, the pilots should get a better job. It is a free market and pilots via commuting are not 'geographically locked.'

Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
In a related story the EV pilots have overwhelmingly rejected a TA with 83 percent voting no.

I tried to find a link. Do you have one?

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
apodino
Posts: 3022
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
Quoting apodino (Reply 14):
In a related story the EV pilots have overwhelmingly rejected a TA with 83 percent voting no.

I tried to find a link. Do you have one?

Lightsaber

I have not seen a link, but this was all over the Stop the Whipsaw facebook group this morning, and is buzzing on other forums where airline pilots frequent. I do say that this is a message sent.

One other thing not getting a lot of press. Skywest and their pilots have agreed on new workrules and pay and the agreement needs to be ratified by the pilot group (Its an inhouse union, but its not a union in the strictest sense of the term) My buddy tells me its a status quo agreement.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:17 pm

The reason people work for $30,000 a year for the regionals is because Delta Captains are making $300,000. People are putting up with the $30,000 a year on the gamble that they will be making $300,000/year later. Delta Captains were making $350,000 a year 10 years ago. Every year goes by that 777 Captain pay is less and less, that carrot is getting smaller and smaller, student starts are getting lower and lower, regionals are whining about not being able to find pilots. Military pilots are electing to stay in the military. In 10-15 years we will wake up in the same situation as East Asia and Europe with a drought of experienced pilots, and we will have the same safety record percentage on a much larger demoniator. People are voting with their feet...they are choosing not to get into the profesion in the first place. You will soon see the MPL in the US and your cruise Captain will have less than 2,000 hours total time.

This TA will pass because at the regional level, the currency is opportunity to get to a major reflected in more Captain Seats, guranteed interviews/flow through agreements. Salary is a secondary consideration at the regionals.
 
ultrapig
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:38 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:26 pm

From where I sit in the middle seat of coach, pilot compensation seems to be backwards. Granted, the pilot of a bigger jet can kill more people-but perhaps some pilots on the board can help me-what takes more skill and is more difficult? A. Flight a RJ for 7 hours with 4 legs or flying from JFK to Paris on a large plane?


I also suggest that if one started a new regional airline and offer no salary there would be enough people who loved flying to staff it! (maybe not in twenty years but now).
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 28):
I also suggest that if one started a new regional airline and offer no salary there would be enough people who loved flying to staff it!

Setting aside the legal issues with that theory, It would be a money losing deal for you. Not just the initial start up costs, but then you have to train all these pilots, make sure they can pass tests, check rides, medical exams etc.

But I think you may get a few people. Certainly not enough to staff a regional airline, but you would get a few people.
The real issue is people need $$ to survive, rent, food, bills. No one is taking a job anymore that cannot pay the bills. They might be up for the training such a deal would offer, but they would also probably have a second job to supplement income. Then we get into fatigue, and set ourselves up for another Colgan issue.
 
jetmatt777
Crew
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 28):
From where I sit in the middle seat of coach, pilot compensation seems to be backwards. Granted, the pilot of a bigger jet can kill more people-but perhaps some pilots on the board can help me-what takes more skill and is more difficult? A. Flight a RJ for 7 hours with 4 legs or flying from JFK to Paris on a large plane?

You have the same effect with Ramp Agents and other ground staff.

You get what your seniority can hold.

What often happens is, your junior ramp agents will get stuck with the hardest shift, at the least amount of money. While senior agents get better hours, easier shifts, and up to twice the pay.

Your 4am-12pm shift, may be full of guys making $11 an hour, working 8 or 9 flights. While your mid-day shift (10am-6pm) is full of guys making $25 an hour, and only working 4 or 5 flights.

Seniority is everything in this industry, and it often means the junior people do twice the work for half the pay, with crappy hours. When I become a senior agent, I don't think I would do any different.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
thegoldenargosy
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:14 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 30):
Your 4am-12pm shift, may be full of guys making $11 an hour, working 8 or 9 flights. While your mid-day shift (10am-6pm) is full of guys making $25 an hour, and only working 4 or 5 flights.

Actually mornings usually go pretty senior. The mid shift and the night shift is usually junior.
 
jetmatt777
Crew
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 31):
Actually mornings usually go pretty senior. The mid shift and the night shift is usually junior.

Not where I work. Mid shift is extremely senior, mornings are very junior. And night is a mix.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 3930
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
The Sandy Hook shooting did not make national news? Are you f'ing kidding me?

No offense, that was 9/11 in the school world.

What is a bad day? What is an unthinkable tragedy

By your thinking, a ticket taker at AMC should make $50000 a year because of Aurora.
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 634
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 29):
The real issue is people need $$ to survive, rent, food, bills. No one is taking a job anymore that cannot pay the bills.

I wonder if anyone has thought of how this will effect future hiring? As a pilot who will, within this cycle of contracts, be looking for a job, I look at the past ten years and realize that fast upgrade promises mean nothing. To me pay actually means something because I don't believe upgrades and pilot movement will be as plentiful as snow in Buffalo. I realize everyone is yelling about the pilot shortage, but I will believe about that when I see it. Saying that, I will not listen to "fast upgrades and flow through," but I will look to see that I can live off the worst situation - 10 year FO.


Now I realize that the pilots who vote on this contract will not have to deal with topping out at 4 year FO pay, but the managers will have to deal with the pilots to come, who hopefully aren't dissuaded by Shinny Jet Syndrome or Bigger Shinny Jet Syndrome.
Boiler Up!
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
They still make more than a school teacher and with a lot less responsibility.

Hardly. My wife is a teacher and everywhere we lived; Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania, and Alaska; Teacher's made more than first year FO's at Eagle. Responsibility? Not ragging on teachers but most aren't worth the ink their "degree" is printed on. Teacher's in my old hometown would retire making $90-100k for a bachelor's in interdisciplinary studies from a podunk teachers college saying "okay class, lets do our ABC's" I respect some, but as a whole, our education system is screwed up. Hence why my kids will go to a private school.

PSA can go shove their contract up their rear end. The race to the bottom ends somewhere. Hopefully not when we're contracting out to pilots making $10 an hour and working at pizza hut in the evenings so they can eat. Pilots are paid for what they know and their judgement, not for what they do. It's very hard to put a price on your safety. Just remember, next time you need to go visit the mouse or send your child to go see their grandma, that pilot is making less than a shift manager at McDonalds. Would you like some fries with that?

atct
Trikes are for kids!
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 35):
The race to the bottom ends somewhere.

It ends when the oversupply of pilots ends. By the comments in this thread, this is happening as we speak. Good.

On a side note, as long as piloting (and teaching) is rewarded by seniority (i.e., just showing up), pay will never be "fair". The young and capable will be underpaid, the old and incapable will be overpaid... and everyone falls somewhere on that spectrum.

Personally, I would never work in a seniority based career. No matter how cool.
 
msp747
Posts: 299
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 6:42 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 23):
A bad day for a crew member: short call for a crappy 3 day or a re-route. A "bad day" for a teacher: fire drill in the middle of a major exam. CRAPPY day for a pilot: landing at the wrong airport or bending metal at all. CRAPPY day for a teacher: shooting in the class room.

Not to keep this thread off topic, but I think it's pretty strange to compare a school shooting to landing at a wrong airport. The worst day possible for a teacher would be a shooting. The worst day possible for a pilot would not be landing at the wrong airport, it would be making a mistake that caused a crash, killing dozens of passengers. That's much different.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):
A 4 year pay scale for First Officers. That locks a FO lower than $30000 a year

That's a scary thought to me. Unfortunately, things won't change until there is one or a series of accidents like the Colgan Air one, or the pilot shortage hits dangerous levels. Both could happen at the same time
 
DDR
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:08 am

What would happen if the XJT and Eagle pilots vote no? That would be a lot of pilots covering a lot of flying. This much capacity couldn't be replaced overnight.
The flying colors of Braniff International
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:11 am

I have never understood why pilots ever agreed to the pay rate being dependent upon what type of plane you fly. From what I understand, that is not the case anywhere outside of North America. Does it take any more skill to fly a 777 vs. an E145? There should be one industry-wide pay rate that is based solely on experience (seniority). It should start out higher (maybe around 50K) and top put lower (maybe around 250K). It would stop the whipsawing and maybe even put some of the bottom feeding regionals out of their misery...
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 12):
It's inevitable and inescapable economics: management would have to stand up in front of investors and defend why they weren't placing regional feed with the lowest-priced provider. (I know, I know - there's the common retort about how "lowest-priced" isn't always "lowest cost," but the point is still valid.)

Then management is going to have to stand up in front of the investors shortly and defend why they're having to cancel flights because the lowest-priced regionals they gave all their flying to can't hire enough pilots to do all that flying because there aren't enough pilots willing to work for crap wages. Methinks that conversation would be a bit harder to have.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
The reality is that while the industry is booming fares aren't exactly booming. $30,000/yr is more likely what the market can bare, whether they like it or not.

Perhaps right now, but that's only because the market is artificially altered by the effects of the economy and the age 65 rule change. Soon that's going to turn around. Yet the proposed Eagle contract is for 10 years - the market is going to change significantly in those 10 years, and when it does Eagle pilots will be making 2013 wages in a 2018 economy. Not planning for that and negotiating a contract accordingly amounts to accepting wages far lower than what the market can bear in the long term, and that's just bad business.

Quoting apodino (Reply 26):
One other thing not getting a lot of press. Skywest and their pilots have agreed on new workrules and pay and the agreement needs to be ratified by the pilot group (Its an inhouse union, but its not a union in the strictest sense of the term) My buddy tells me its a status quo agreement.

It's actually a pay raise. A very small pay raise to be sure, but a raise. The more important thing is that it's not a concession - even if they were standing pat it would be a victory for the pilots in light of the contracts that have been pushed at PSA, Eagle and Expressjet.

Skywest, it should be noted, keeps getting contracts, despite the fact that they're often not the lowest-cost option out there.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
commavia
Posts: 9626
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:35 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Then management is going to have to stand up in front of the investors shortly and defend why they're having to cancel flights because the lowest-priced regionals they gave all their flying to can't hire enough pilots to do all that flying because there aren't enough pilots willing to work for crap wages.

Absolutely - mainline management has to consider both, and plan accordingly.

Thus - I suspect - precisely why we're seeing, in addition to the continued pressure on regional pilot costs, also at least Delta and AA rapidly build up their larger RJ fleets while simultaneously planning the orderly drawdown of the vast majority of their small jet flying. It's not just about the economics of the small jets, and the economics of the regional pilot contracts, but also about the coming lack of pilots themselves. So all else being equal, 300 E75s not only replaces the capacity of about 450 ER4s more economically (particularly at these concessionary pilot compensation levels), but it also requires 1/3 less pilots altogether.
 
jfritz
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:49 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:44 am

It talked about a quicker progression into the main airline. Just out of curiosity what is ballpark timeframe from starting at the regional and then making it to the main airline (when times are good in the industry)?
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:54 am

Quoting jfritz (Reply 42):
Just out of curiosity what is ballpark timeframe from starting at the regional and then making it to the main airline (when times are good in the industry)?

It can be anywhere from a year or two to never. I know that's not a great answer but the last decade has really skewed what a 'normal' progression looks like. If I had to estimate, I would say 4-6 years from a regional to a legacy or LCC carrier in the USA for a pilot hired this year would be my average.
 
jfritz
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:49 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:04 am

Very good, thanks for the response Roswell
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:32 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 16):
The point I was trying to make is that we live in a free capitalist market and salaries will be what the market can bare. Period. We'd all like to get paid more for our jobs but it doesn't work that way. It's what your customers are willing to pay for your services that matters, regardless of whether you're a pilot, a flight attendant, a teacher, or a mechanic.

Read RLA much?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
Then as noted, the pilots should get a better job. It is a free market and pilots via commuting are not 'geographically locked.'

Oh OK.. I will work on that better job right now.. Where should I go? My response to the previous poster is the same to you.. Read the RLA.. See how the pilot compensation is nothing BUT free market. Then we will discuss where I should be looking for a better job and how I will carry my longevity with me.
Earthbound misfit I
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:46 am

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 34):
I wonder if anyone has thought of how this will effect future hiring? As a pilot who will, within this cycle of contracts, be looking for a job, I look at the past ten years and realize that fast upgrade promises mean nothing. To me pay actually means something because I don't believe upgrades and pilot movement will be as plentiful as snow in Buffalo. I realize everyone is yelling about the pilot shortage, but I will believe about that when I see it. Saying that, I will not listen to "fast upgrades and flow through," but I will look to see that I can live off the worst situation - 10 year FO.

I completely agree, plan for the worst, hope for the best... Bet on the FO pay for a long time, and hope for better pay in the future.

Quoting atct (Reply 35):
The race to the bottom ends somewhere.

It will probably end when the regionals don't have the pilots to operate flights.

Quoting DDR (Reply 38):
What would happen if the XJT and Eagle pilots vote no? That would be a lot of pilots covering a lot of flying. This much capacity couldn't be replaced overnight.

I have been hearing scary things from friends inside Expressjet. One rumor on the street is that if they cannot stem the loss of pilots, AND increase hiring, they may have to start chartering planes to provide feed for UA, rumor has it Funjet has been looked at. Again just a rumor.

I hope MQ votes no, it will cause an uproar I'm sure, but it will show AA that they can shove it. MQ is a goner anyways, why take massive cuts to get maybe an extra year or so? EV already voted no, by a considerable number something like 83% no...
 
User avatar
Acey559
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:01 am

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 34):
Now I realize that the pilots who vote on this contract will not have to deal with topping out at 4 year FO pay,

I will. I'm on pay step three right now so if this gets voted in I'll be capped this September (my anniversary) and realistically I'll never see a raise again while I'm at Eagle...envoy...whatever. I've already decided that if this passes I'm gone. I don't know that I'll leave the industry entirely but I will NOT make a lateral move to another regional. I love to fly but there is nothing in this world that's worth enough to deal with this crap. Good luck to you, I honestly hope things get better and maybe I'll see you out on the line, but as I said, I'm turning my resignation in the day this thing passes; if it does.
 
tyler81190
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:28 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:08 am

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 47):
I'm turning my resignation in the day this thing passes; if it does.

I don't hold high hopes for it passing. But I would hate to see a fellow aviator walk away from the industry. I wish you the best of luck, and my thoughts are with all of those at MQ. I sincerely hope they do not pass this awful contract.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: American Eagle Reaches Pilot Deal; Gets 60 E75s

Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 36):
The young and capable will be underpaid, the old and incapable will be overpaid... and everyone falls somewhere on that spectrum.

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but please help me out with this. How to you get to be old and incapable as an airline pilot? You can't just show up to work and do sod all, can you? Surely you still have to fly the plane well, pass medicals and checks etc, and so on and so forth? What makes you incapable but still in the job?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈